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Hashal posted:I'm also finding it a lot easier to find lower mileage Cherokees compared to the 4runners. Can anyone throw a ballpark price for adding a locker to a '99 Cherokee? An ARB air locker is like $900 not counting installation or a pump/tank/however you want to operate it. I'd say you're easily looking at $1500 for a selectable locker. I would strongly recommend against a mechanical type locker on a DD. Well....on anything other than a drag car really.
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Sep 18, 2012 19:56
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Depends. Around $1k-1200 for parts for a selectable (OX locker, ARB, Yukon Zip locker, etc) is a reasonable expectation. Stay away from aftermarket E-lockers, I've never met anyone who had one work right without loving about with it for a long time. Various Torsen/LSD/full case auto lockers (Detroit, others) will run you $500-600 parts. Aussie lockers and other similar "lunchbox lockers" that automatically lock when you get on the throttle or engine brake are generally around $350 for parts and install in an afternoon in your driveway. In a rear axle application they will induce somewhat squirrely handling in slippery conditions until you get used to it, I suggest parking lot practice if you go this route, or put it in the front diff instead. I'm running an aussie in my front diff that I got used for $200 and it hasn't let me down yet. There's always the "lincoln locker" or "miller locker" (fill in the brand of your largest welder here...) but I generally don't recommend those for anything but dedicated trail rigs because you can basically double the tire budget due to excessive wear on-road and they don't handle very nicely. You'll also have to get used to that wonderful "someone just ran over a pack of chihuahuas" sound and the resulting stares from pedestrians every time you make a sharp corner or pull into a parking space.
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Sep 18, 2012 20:32
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Hashal posted:From my research the Limited came with an electric button to switch from 2WD to 4HI on the fly, but the locker was still optional on all models. Being in San Diego, there is probably a good chance more of these actually have lockers on them and just aren't listed in the ad's I'm looking at. Time to start calling. The 98 cherokee is pretty much identical as long as it has the 8.25" rear end (you can tell by looking at the diff cover). You can install an aussie locker into the rear which will make it very capable as well. I've ran them in some different vehicles and they worked very well both on and off road.
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Sep 18, 2012 22:14
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jonathan posted:The 98 cherokee is pretty much identical as long as it has the 8.25" rear end (you can tell by looking at the diff cover). You can install an aussie locker into the rear which will make it very capable as well. I've ran them in some different vehicles and they worked very well both on and off road. Are aussie lockers that much better than Detroits? Because Detroits add a pretty terrifying handling "quirk" unless you know what you're doing. Letting someone else drive your truck is pretty much right out unless they know what's up. Just doesn't seem like a reasonable daily driver type of thing, especially if you ever see snow/ice on tarmac or even just wet and slippery roads. Not to mention the fact that unless your climb is straight you're screwed. There is a tight corner on a steep incline in one of the spots I hunt. The guy with the Detroit locker can't make it up in the rain. He's fine, right until he hits that turn and it unlocks.
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Sep 18, 2012 22:41
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Do lunchbox lockers cause that kind of handling problem when they're in the front axle of a part-time 4wd system, like a Wrangler?
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Sep 18, 2012 23:31
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EightBit posted:Do lunchbox lockers cause that kind of handling problem when they're in the front axle of a part-time 4wd system, like a Wrangler? If the hubs are unlocked the axles are disconnected so there's no way for anything going on in there to matter. If the hubs are locked but the transfer case is in 2 wheel drive there's no power going to the diff to cause the locker to actuate (at least in the case of a Detroit....I can't comment on other styles).
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Sep 18, 2012 23:41
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Motronic posted:If the hubs are unlocked the axles are disconnected so there's no way for anything going on in there to matter. If the hubs are locked but the transfer case is in 2 wheel drive there's no power going to the diff to cause the locker to actuate (at least in the case of a Detroit....I can't comment on other styles). This would be a TJ, so the hubs don't unlock, ever.
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Sep 18, 2012 23:43
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EightBit posted:This would be a TJ, so the hubs don't unlock, ever. Oh yeah...the post-CJ cost cutting. I forgot about that. Either way, if a Detroit isn't being powered, it doesn't lock so it should be fine. While you're up there you might as well try to get some (un)lockable hubs for when you eventually break something up there with a locker. I'm not being snarky here.....it's gonna happen, and if you can unlock your hubs you get to drive home rather than fix it on the trail.
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Sep 18, 2012 23:52
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Agreed, except I say spend your $900 on 14 pairs of spare axleshafts+unit bearings and some tools and learn to change the shafts yourself instead of spending it on a locking hub kit  I can have a busted jeep with a blown axleshaft up off the ground, shaft out, new shaft in, wheel back on and down on the ground again in under 15 minutes with a preassembled spare shaft/bearing assembly, tools, and practice, it is far more practical than a locking hub kit and it leaves me with a functioning front axle after any breakage occurs. I've never seen an obstacle that keeps an autolocker (warning: I've only ever run aussies) from relocking after you navigate a corner, either. Either it's momentum-based hill climbing (I.e. jeep pinball) and he simply can't afford to slow/stop or his locker sucks. Weekend before last I made it up a rock garden that should have denied me and had to back up a foot or two and try the last rock a second time and the locker went right back to doing its thing every time I put it in gear, whether it was first or reverse. Maybe it is a detroit truetrac or posi differential rather than an autolocker?
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Sep 19, 2012 01:06
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Motronic posted:They aren't for everyone, but they sure are cheap, easy to work on (for the most part - some of the Disco 2 electronics are a pain in the rear end), and readily available. Live axles with coils, sufficient power for their size, very good flex right out of the box..... They are ridiculously capable in stock trim, just like a Wrangler. You forgot to mention head gaskets made of cheese.  I just threw the Discovery out there because they are ridiculously cheap for the amount of "stuff" included. I need to post some pictures from my exploration I did the other day. Nothing to hard core, but it was fun to get out and run the Rover around.
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Sep 19, 2012 01:23
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Motronic posted:Oh yeah...the post-CJ cost cutting. I forgot about that. I'm not going to bother with unlockable hubs, as they would only help if I grenade the differential. The other common failures (snapped axle shaft, broken yokes, ball joints, etc.) still require a trail fix. And that would require different wheels I'm sure, and I just bought these to replace a set that was stolen.
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Sep 19, 2012 01:42
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kastein posted:Agreed, except I say spend your $900 on 14 pairs of spare axleshafts+unit bearings and some tools and learn to change the shafts yourself instead of spending it on a locking hub kit Valid point. But that's up to you and whether you are a trail mechanic or not. Not everyone is. kastein posted:Maybe it is a detroit truetrac or posi differential rather than an autolocker? It's quite assuredly an autolocker. I can HEAR it clunk back to locked as he straightens out on the road, same as the one I had in the back of my '74 F250. I'm sure you could momentum your way on through it if you were good enough and familiar enough with the turn/hill....but my point remains the same: they are no replacement for a selectable locker because of exactly things like that. They are a great budget option and beat the hell out of no locker at all, but if you can afford the extra cash and truly need a locker get one that's selectable. I'm not sure I've every spoken with anyone who's had both and would disagree with that sentiment. But in reality, this all comes down to budgets and expectations.
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Sep 19, 2012 01:44
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Motronic posted:Valid point. But that's up to you and whether you are a trail mechanic or not. Not everyone is. But I'll be damned if I don't aspire to be one  .
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Sep 19, 2012 02:30
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Something to consider instead of a locker is a winch. It won't get you out of some situations, but it might let you try something you wouldn't think of otherwise with open diffs. For a Cherokee you'll probably want a new front bumper to hold the winch, so unfortunately the cost will probably be about the same as getting a locker put in ($1000 or so, i.e. $500 or so for the bumper and winch each). The only real gripe I have about the Cherokee is the spare tire situation. The stock tire sits in the back against the window. If you upgrade to 31" or bigger tires you'll have a hard or impossible time fitting one back there. You can get a roof basket/rack for cheap and toss the tire up there, but then you need to lug it up/down and are increasing the center of gravity. You can leave the tire in the back lying flat, but then you lose a lot of space and utility as a daily driver. Finally you can get rear bumpers with tire mounts but they are not cheap--at least $600-1000 or so.
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Sep 19, 2012 02:43
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Motronic posted:Not to mention the fact that unless your climb is straight you're screwed. There is a tight corner on a steep incline in one of the spots I hunt. The guy with the Detroit locker can't make it up in the rain. He's fine, right until he hits that turn and it unlocks. There's no doubt that an autolocker introduces some weird handling quirks that take a little getting used to, but it's much less of an issue out west where you're not necessarily wheeling in muddy or icy situations very often. On dry roads and trails an autolocker (Aussie, Detroit, Lock-right etc) rarely does anything surprising. An auto tranny and bigger, softer tires make it even less of an issue. My mother used to borrow my 4runner to go to the mall once in a while and never noticed the lock-right in the rear end.
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Sep 19, 2012 03:08
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murphle posted:On dry roads and trails an autolocker (Aussie, Detroit, Lock-right etc) rarely does anything surprising. We don't disagree at all on that point. I'm talking about using a normal level of acceleration in a corner in wet, snowy or icy conditions. In no universe is it a normal driving dynamic to "reverse understeer" out of a corner. I consider that kind of thing (along with wandering pig syndrome in trucks that were lifted too far without correcting the caster angle) pretty horrible and unsafe road manners.
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Sep 19, 2012 03:12
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Motronic posted:We don't disagree at all on that point. I'm talking about using a normal level of acceleration in a corner in wet, snowy or icy conditions. In no universe is it a normal driving dynamic to "reverse understeer" out of a corner. I consider that kind of thing (along with wandering pig syndrome in trucks that were lifted too far without correcting the caster angle) pretty horrible and unsafe road manners. I don't follow, what do you mean by "reverse understeer"? Because my truck just wants to throw the rear end out if you stand on the go pedal through a corner, i.e. oversteer. Applying power locks the diff, and it behaves like a spool. Normally I would just coast through tight corners if that much slippage is going to be an issue. Trying to get on and off the gas repeatedly through a slippery corner would cause weird behavior, but who drives like that? Smooth application of power to exit a corner doesn't cause me any problems. A week or two of driving with the locker was enough time to get used to its small quirks. Now, I may have had an easier time than normal since the 4runner has a slightly longer wheel base than your typical jeep, and the 35" tires soak up a lot of driveline weirdness.
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Sep 19, 2012 03:53
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It can be pretty squirrely in snow but other than that, it's not that big a deal. I certainly wouldn't lend a rear autolocker equipped truck to any sunday drivers without first teaching them how to drive it properly, but most people don't want anything to do with driving my truck anyways.
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Sep 19, 2012 04:09
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Do you guys consider an Xterra a viable contender in the sub $7000 range or is that laughable in here? You can get an early 2000s around 100k miles for $5-6000. I came across this Top 10 Weekend Wagons for $5000 on (Cheap!) Used SUV Market - Popular Mechanics- in my searching around and it has the Xterra mentioned. I'd be worried about about reliability issues like I've seen in a lot of early 2000 Nissan's. This including my 2001 I30 I'll be selling or trading in partly because it's a head-ache. I know almost nothing about the Xterra and I don't trust the reviews I come across nearly as much as I do here. Again - this will be a 22 day a month freeway car, and 1 or 2 day a month light trail runner. I try to reserve the rest of the month for the sports car. Any So Cal goons - I'm looking for something that can do every Green run and a good amount of yellow on the annual TDS runs (do they still do those? Haven't been in 10 years). Ninja Edit: They are very much still alive. poo poo, trails used to be labeled Green, Yellow, Red. Now they got a fancy 9 point system. The Tierra Del Sol San Diego 4x4 Club This is some of the most fun I've had four-wheeling. I'm looking to get to a 2.5 with a stock vehicle. 4runner and Jeeps cover this. I'd like a to eventually get to a 3.0 on their trail rating. I'm assuming a 4runner lifted with a factory locker and good tires could handle this. A lifted Jeep may handle these but may need a locker for some. Is an Xterra ever capable of a 3.0? Are they even capable of a 2.5 stock? Is there an aftermarket and are they problem prone like early 2000s Nissan cars? The price makes them very attractive. I apologize for the wall of text... quote:
Loan Dusty Road fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Sep 19, 2012 |
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Sep 19, 2012 04:38
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My Cherokee had open front, Aussie Rear. My Father's K10 Chevy has Aussie front, with lockable hubs, and open rear. Finally I have Selectable locker front, Selectable rear with posilok or whatever the gen2 d44 has in the JK. The JK is the most capable going up technical climbs, and running fully locked down an obstacle offers some extra stability that an open diff or auto locker would have. That said, on a steep incline that requires some maneuvering, the aussie locked rear in the cherokee provided the locked diff performance but more turning ability. Locking and unlocking the diffs to make a sharp uphill technical turn can be a pain. On road manners even in the snow were fine. No different than a posi type diff except noisy when trying to park. The aussie front behaved really well also. More road friendly with hubs locked transfer case unlocked than the aussie in the rear. Fully locked in the JK is useless for anything but straight shots at obstacles.
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Sep 19, 2012 04:50
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Hashal posted:Do you guys consider an Xterra a viable contender in the sub $7000 range or is that laughable in here? You can get an early 2000s around 100k miles for $5-6000. My brother in law runs xterrafirma.com and loves his.
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Sep 19, 2012 11:31
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murphle posted:I don't follow, what do you mean by "reverse understeer"? Because my truck just wants to throw the rear end out if you stand on the go pedal through a corner, i.e. oversteer. Applying power locks the diff, and it behaves like a spool. Normally I would just coast through tight corners if that much slippage is going to be an issue. Trying to get on and off the gas repeatedly through a slippery corner would cause weird behavior, but who drives like that? I'm talking about the front end going in the opposite direction of understeer. For example, making a right turn from a stop....you roll on the noisy pedal and start going. Locker unlocks, and now your right rear wheel is the only thing pushing you. Apply too much throttle (which isn't too much without a locker) and you tend to shove the front end OUT of your corner. I totally get that with more throttle than that you'll oversteer, but it was that inbetween that really pissed me off with the detroit in slipper conditions. Possibly this bad behaviour was exacerbated by my tires, which sucked on wet tarmac and snow (35" Swamper TSL SXes). Yes, this was back in my days of thinking the best way to tackle obstacles was by brute force and size. I was young and stupid. Now I'm just slightly less stupid.
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Sep 19, 2012 15:40
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Hashal posted:Do you guys consider an Xterra a viable contender in the sub $7000 range or is that laughable in here? You can get an early 2000s around 100k miles for $5-6000. Anecdotal, but I had a 2004 v6 xterra with 265/75/16 BFP AT/KOs and Bilstein shocks as the only mods (besides removing body accessories and cutting plastic), and I never had a problem keeping up with 4runners, Rangers, and Cherokees. This was in Florida, however, so it was never really rock or hill climbing, but instead churning through swamp water and sticky mud, or crawling down sugar sand trails. The low range gearing is impressively torquey and the stock ground clearance is pretty good. You'll always be limited in suspension travel by the IFS I guess, but that's the same story with a 4runner or a Ranger too.
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Sep 19, 2012 21:25
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Motronic posted:I'm talking about the front end going in the opposite direction of understeer. For example, making a right turn from a stop....you roll on the noisy pedal and start going. Locker unlocks, and now your right rear wheel is the only thing pushing you. Apply too much throttle (which isn't too much without a locker) and you tend to shove the front end OUT of your corner. I totally get that with more throttle than that you'll oversteer, but it was that inbetween that really pissed me off with the detroit in slipper conditions. An open differential turns both tires with the same torque at all times, so if they both have grip they are both pushing. It's simple physics, don't keep spreading that misbelief about differentials. This is pretty typical behavior of a Detroit-style locker; the locker works to keep both wheels at least turning at input speed (reduced by the pinion gear, but you get the idea). The result of locking it up on dry pavement with throttle applied is that you'll get a pretty strong push in the direction that the rear wheels are facing. This isn't reverse-understeer, it's plain understeer.
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Sep 20, 2012 00:43
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EightBit posted:An open differential turns both tires with the same torque at all times, so if they both have grip they are both pushing. It's simple physics, don't keep spreading that misbelief about differentials. Call it what you like, it's "not proper road behaviour" in my book. You explanation makes sense, but I wasn't trying to dissect the physics of things, just explain the effects of what happens in the real world with that setup. It was not happening with the factory LSD and it was extremely pronounced after the Detroit went in.
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Sep 20, 2012 01:00
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Motronic posted:Call it what you like, it's "not proper road behaviour" in my book. You explanation makes sense, but I wasn't trying to dissect the physics of things, just explain the effects of what happens in the real world with that setup. It was not happening with the factory LSD and it was extremely pronounced after the Detroit went in. By no means is it normal road manners, for an unlocked differential, or an LSD. LSD's don't usually have full lock-up and won't produce this behavior. Like everyone else said, be prepared to never loan out that vehicle or drive it in the winter.
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Sep 20, 2012 02:06
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I'm gonna go ahead and jynx myself by saying that I intend to drive my auto-locker equipped MJ this winter, it's in the front diff but I'll probably end up using 4x4 often if it's snowy. Put myself into the ditch on my first drive in snow with it last winter (during our freak October snowstorm - 8" on Halloween, leaves still on the trees so half of the town was without power and roadblocked by downed limbs) but fortunately, the locker also meant I got myself right back out of the ditch just as quickly. Would have been a long walk or a wrecker bill without it. It certainly handles a bit oddly getting on and off the throttle with the autolocker but it's quite predictable once you get used to it. I should have my studded snow tires on for this winter, too, I can't wait. Only had regular old BFG ATs for last winter.
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Sep 20, 2012 18:06
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rally posted:What this guy said. You need a 1999 Cherokee Sport with the 4.0 and 8.25 rear end. You can get something with less than 150k miles on it for $3000 or maybe less depending on your area. Then you take the another 2k of your budget and turn it into something really amazing and keep the rest for all the $100~ repairs you'll be performing yourself. How can I tell if these have the 8.25 rear, or do all of the '99 Sports have them?
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Sep 23, 2012 00:04
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Hashal posted:How can I tell if these have the 8.25 rear, or do all of the '99 Sports have them?  99 has an 8.25 as an option. quick rule of thumb is abs = dana 35, but best to check the covers
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Sep 23, 2012 00:10
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Yeah definitely check the axle--my non-ABS '99 has a D35.  Not a big deal though since I really just take it out on washed out forest roads and such.
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Sep 23, 2012 00:20
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Thanks for the picture. Is there anything on the car itself that will identify if it has ABS? I'll look at the diff either way, but may help when looking at pictures on Craigslist and such.
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Sep 23, 2012 00:26
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To make it somewhat easier, the 8.25 has a flat bottom edge on the diff housing which protrudes a little below the round lip of the cover.
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Sep 23, 2012 00:29
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Just got back from a 2 week off road trip in Arizona/Utah/New Mexico and Utah... I'm pooped.. Stopped over in Vegas for 2 days for the Barrett Jackson auction on the way back...made a note to never store a chocolate bar in the glove compartment. Met a few folks from AM General about the Humvee Commercial project including looking at pictures of it and some other details.. but I have to double check to see if I can talk more about it. Friend of mine brought along a nicely beefed up 92 Hummer running a 6BT with an Allison and tons of drivetrain upgrades... except for the upper control arms, one of which ripped the ball joint out of the arm which took some creative use of a few mallets and ratchet straps to get the truck off the trail and back to the hotel where we were able to barely order a new [reinforced] upper control arm and had it overnighted to the hotel. Nothing like doing repairs in a motel parking lot... I'll post some pictures tomorrow.. Moab is pretty. My truck ran fine, no issues other than a leaky valve cover that I'll fix this week and my 4L80E throwing a code about a speed sensor.. feels like my 1-2 shift solenoid may need to be swapped out, I guess I'll get that done this week as well. Big K of Justice fucked around with this message at 05:24 on Sep 23, 2012 |
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Sep 23, 2012 05:15
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Would anyone recommend a turn of the century suburban/tahoe for light offroading? I've been looking for something to do double duty as a race car hauler and a offroader. I was originally looking at touaregs, but have given up on them since I cant find any I like and the reliability concerns. What should I look for? Difference between the 5.7 (-99) and 5.3(00-)? I know the tahoe would be preferable for offroad with the shorter wheelbase, but is the burban capable?
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Oct 9, 2012 21:04
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I was out trying to get dirty on the (Canadian) long weekend, and I found a little bit of a jump. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9ijEYZjIRE The whole island seems to be locked down, as it hasn't rained since mid august and the forestry companies control access. It's supposed to start raining later this week, which should open up some of the gates and make my weekends a little more interesting.
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Oct 10, 2012 05:41
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  It was fun in the holes... but so far its taken me about 4hrs to just clean the bullbar, wheels, engine bay and wheel arches, and panel beat and re-weld the front bash plate again On a positive, I now know what it looks like when the poo poo hits the fan!
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Oct 10, 2012 12:04
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Geared Hub posted:Just got back from a 2 week off road trip in Arizona/Utah/New Mexico and Utah... I'm pooped.. I'm pretty loving jealous.
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Oct 10, 2012 13:15
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commissargribb posted:I'm pretty loving jealous. Long trips is a toss up especially if you aren't using a trailer towed rig. Hopefully you won't break bad enough that you are stuck. Some guys blew diffs and transmissions on that run and thats expensive when you are stuck in Moab :/ After the trip I found out all 3 of my u-joints are toast on my driveshafts... one almost fell out of the transfer case.. so yeah.. 12 year old u-joints + moab = toasty.. No choice when you lock the t-case and diffs once in a while while driving around on a miles long giant rock.That and I was apparently wheeling with a cracked transmission cross member. Didn't stop me though  loving CB whackers running linear amped radios can go to hell, was reminded of that 12-14,000 feet up in the Rockies in Colorado and half the CB channels were flooded by idiots far far away... the mountains were bouncing the signals all over the place. Big K of Justice fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Oct 10, 2012 |
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Oct 10, 2012 22:50
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I thought there weren't enough pictures in this thread, and I haven't posted my truck in this thread since I slapped some new paint on it! Fresh at the end of last summer:   Out for a drive/hike last weekend: 
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Oct 11, 2012 15:14
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This thread shouldn't be so far back. I managed to keep it pretty clean but then the boys wanted to try driving and they found the mudhole infinitely entertaining.
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Nov 5, 2012 17:09
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