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I agree with Erik Shawn-Bohner that constant false starts can lead to a pretty brutal feeling of failure. But so can refusing to write anything because you can't seem to finish your current story. Sometimes you just have to call something "finished enough for now" and move on. It's not the same as abandonment. For me, they become notes for later. So I think a big question is, are you finishing anything? More than half of what you start? Or are you constantly starting and abandoning? Personally, this tends to happen to me when I become overly convinced of the importance of what I'm writing. I start thinking "THIS, this is the break-out short story that I will build my career on. It's gotta be perfect!" then I totally shut down, because every flaw is tantamount to being a complete and utter failure as a writer. Good times! Especially if you find your attention wavering after about a week, giving yourself less than a week to complete and share something might help. Participating in Thunderdome has forced me to finish and post things that are terrifyingly imperfect. It's been the best and most awesome thing for my writing. Bravery bordering on recklessness is a key component of writing. Regarding our old friend, liquid courage, it is entirely possible to do this: Erik Shawn-Bohner posted:
Without doing this: Erik Shawn-Bohner posted:For me, it took an angsty, existential crisis leading to drinking my rear end off for a few years until I had so thoroughly hosed up my situation that writing seemed like a fairly reasonable occupation to take up full-time if not the only one available to me then. I don't think Erik was advising would-be writers to hit rock-bottom, but the power of alcohol tends to get a tad over-glorified, in my opinion. Can it help you open up to emotions and shut down criticism to get writing? Suuuuure, sometimes. It can also become a huge danger and waste of time, something that hampers writing rather than helping. No matter what, writing requires a huge amount of determination. You have to keep writing, even when you're not "feeling it." You also have to make yourself feel all the terrible emotions you put your characters through--and then keep putting them through even worse. I can't stand to have anyone look at me when I'm writing; it's too intimate. I have been known to hide under the covers when writing a particularly tough scene. If you're getting bored with your idea, kick things up a notch, go crazy, have a character go crazy, make aliens invade, whatever. To learn to write, you have to write and edit complete stories. Just acknowledge that the first dozen or so (ha ha, more like 50+) are going to be god awful.
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Sep 24, 2012 20:24
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| # ? May 9, 2024 15:47 |
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Just to be clear, loving up your entire life is not recommended. I really hope no one used that as the takeaway. Drug/alcohol writing is usually pretty terrible, but it's (sadly) where some people start because the altered state allows them to be all weepy and emotional while spilling their guts as drunks like to do. It still beats the endless cycle of half-finishing. So, yeah. The Doc got what I was saying. Also, publishing. I've said it all before, and I'll say it again. Once you have that sexy little lit rag in your hand, a physical copy with your name and work on it, you can taste the blood and you just go for it. That's the real drug you should seek: working hard, being accepted by a set of peers who don't suck, and being read and appreciated by people who won't read trash. Erik Shawn-Bohner fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Sep 24, 2012 |
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Sep 24, 2012 20:33
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Erik Shawn-Bohner posted:That's the real drug you should seek: working hard, being accepted by a set of peers who don't suck, and being read and appreciated by people who won't read trash. THUNDERDOME! I've written basically nothing apart from half a crappy novel when I was in prison back in the 90s (long story) and Thunderdome has been the best thing for pushing me to actually get the poo poo down.
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Sep 24, 2012 22:53
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sebmojo posted:THUNDERDOME! What-up incarceration buddy.  
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Sep 24, 2012 23:02
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Erik Shawn-Bohner posted:What-up incarceration buddy. Heyyyyyyy!
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Sep 24, 2012 23:58
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*locks doors*
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Sep 25, 2012 00:01
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I was wondering if/how other people celebrate when they've finished a large project? I'm probably going to finish my book today and usually treat myself with cheap cigars and fortified wine, though I'm thinking of something a little classier this time around.
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Sep 25, 2012 13:43
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justcola posted:I was wondering if/how other people celebrate when they've finished a large project? I'm probably going to finish my book today and usually treat myself with cheap cigars and fortified wine, though I'm thinking of something a little classier this time around. Celebrate by starting your next novel.
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Sep 25, 2012 14:21
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justcola posted:I was wondering if/how other people celebrate when they've finished a large project? I'm probably going to finish my book today and usually treat myself with cheap cigars and fortified wine, though I'm thinking of something a little classier this time around. Good cigars and Blanton's?
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Sep 25, 2012 15:49
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HiddenGecko posted:Celebrate by starting your next novel. While you drink good port.
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Sep 25, 2012 23:08
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justcola posted:I was wondering if/how other people celebrate when they've finished a large project? I'm probably going to finish my book today and usually treat myself with cheap cigars and fortified wine, though I'm thinking of something a little classier this time around. $10 bubbly. But I don't wait for a "large project."
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Sep 26, 2012 06:20
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HiddenGecko posted:Celebrate by starting your next novel.
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Sep 26, 2012 06:27
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Ended up being a cheap cigar with fish and chips. What an extravaganza. I tend to write short stories more often, but I enjoyed writing a novel. Think I'll take some time before starting another, get it all in order. What's the rule about simultaneously submitting short stories to magazines? I know it's frowned upon in case more than one wants to publish but it sometimes takes a long time to get a response.
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Sep 26, 2012 11:28
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justcola posted:Ended up being a cheap cigar with fish and chips. What an extravaganza. Each journal has different guidelines. A lot of them do accept simsumbs; you just have to note it on your cover letter. I've only submitted to a few that don't. That's for general fiction, though-- I'm not totally sure about genre submissions.
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Sep 26, 2012 13:04
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Didn't one of you note earlier that the best course of action is to just submit to everyone and not give a poo poo if they get their panties in a twist? Not that I'm recommending it, I want to know for my own sake as well.
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Sep 26, 2012 15:57
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Black Griffon posted:Didn't one of you note earlier that the best course of action is to just submit to everyone and not give a poo poo if they get their panties in a twist? Not that I'm recommending it, I want to know for my own sake as well. I'm not going to try and speak from a position of authority, but logic would tell me, yes, this is the best course of action. No one can claim the exclusive right to reject you, so gently caress 'em. Looking around Duotrope it seems like so many encourage multiple submissions that you can just wave a middle finger at the ones that don't without an appreciable dip in your statistical likelihood to get published.
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Sep 26, 2012 16:53
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I've heard from editors that they pretty much assume that everyone simultaneously submits even if they don't allow it, just have the courtesy to let them know asap if you decide to publish elsewhere.
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Sep 26, 2012 17:03
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Black Griffon posted:Didn't one of you note earlier that the best course of action is to just submit to everyone and not give a poo poo if they get their panties in a twist? Not that I'm recommending it, I want to know for my own sake as well. That was me. At least, I was the last to drop that wisdom-bomb. gently caress tha police is my policy on that. and this: psychopomp posted:I've heard from editors that they pretty much assume that everyone simultaneously submits even if they don't allow it, just have the courtesy to let them know asap if you decide to publish elsewhere.
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Sep 26, 2012 21:02
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Anyone already planning what to write for NaNo? It's coming up fast!
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Sep 27, 2012 00:56
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I'm gonna try to work the ~MY NOVEL~ that I'm most interested in getting done. It's pretty well outlined, but we'll see how it turns out.
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Sep 27, 2012 01:03
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Yeah, NaNo might be the laxative I need to push out a bunch of lovely writing that I can kind of mold into a little poo poo statue. And then leave on a public toilet seat for others to find. Wait what metaphor am I making again. I'm feeling anxious about it (and writing in general) because I'm at that point in my writing practice where I'm discovering how much poo poo that I don't know. I feel like I'm the equivalent of when an artist draws their subject with arms behind their back cause the artist can't sketch hands. Guns? Cars? Horses? Law enforcement? Any time period other than circa 1990-present? I'm hosed. Doomed to hide my ignorance behind flimsy plot devices. They say write what you know, but they also say no one wants to read about the adventures of a relatively boring middle class twenty-something. I read other writing, even amateur writing, and it seems chalked full of little bits of cultural observation, realistic details, and other trivia that has the effect of fleshing the story out. Obviously research is paramount, but I've spend hours or days researching something for a piece only to find out I was barking up the wrong tree because I didn't know what I didn't know. I guess the answer to this is ultimately research more and live life, but I'm curious how other people deal with this. Or do you have to be an interesting person to write interesting fiction, because if so 
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Sep 27, 2012 02:46
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Sitting Here posted:Yeah, NaNo might be the laxative I need to push out a bunch of lovely writing that I can kind of mold into a little poo poo statue. And then leave on a public toilet seat for others to find. Wait what metaphor am I making again. Oh hey finally something I can yell about at length. "Write what you know" is good advice. It does, however, turn into bad advice when taken too literally. I entered a grim phase in my writing classes where every other story was about working part-time in a church or a flower shop or going on a trip to Europe in which no-loving-poo poo three goddamn pages were spent dithering over train schedules. The sum total of your life experiences should inform your writing not in the particulars but in the overarching perspectives they engender, by which I mean to say that maybe those stories about church work would've been a lot better if they'd been more about the banal desperation of people seeking comfort in everyday architecture and less about vacuuming the pews every afternoon. It doesn't take a terribly exciting life to inform your work. Even if you're mired in ordinary present-day middle-class comfort then unless you've spent your whole life hiding under your bed there'll be some thing, or things, that gives you a way to reach out and grip some common emotion. If you want a personal example, my early writing was clumsy and way too ambitious because I didn't know how to make real the minor (well, "minor") details of character and relationships, and then a couple years into that process my family broke up. It took a fairly long time and it was moderately unpleasant and it gave my writing a real shot in the arm, because from there it latched onto and explored the concepts of alienation and how relationships are eaten away by the neuroses of those within them. It's not what you have but how you use it, and everyone has something to work with. As for research, sure, it's important. But one of my biggest joys in writing is to just see how much I can bullshit people on stuff and get away with it. Give details in broad and reasonably accurate strokes and fill in the blanks with strong, consistent characterization and you'd be amazed at the sort of stuff you can get a general audience to overlook. It's definitely better than going the Tom Clancy route and turning your work into a glorified tech manual.
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Sep 27, 2012 03:03
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I'm not lying, if I found a hastily bound novel sitting on a public toilet toilet, I'd read it. There should be a NY Times bestseller category for Toilet Novels.
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Sep 27, 2012 03:08
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Sitting Here posted:Yeah, NaNo might be the laxative I need to push out a bunch of lovely writing that I can kind of mold into a little poo poo statue. And then leave on a public toilet seat for others to find. Wait what metaphor am I making again. "[T]here are known knowns; there are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns; that is to say there are things that, we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns – there are things we do not know we don't know." - rumsfeld I find research helps tremendously, though you need to know what method suits you best really. I usually start with an extremely broad overview on whichever subject, usually by watching a documentary. A documentary is only ever able to deliver a certain amount of information so you'll have to do more research afterward, but it'll give you a good idea of what elements of the subject interest you. First hand information is always interesting to read, especially if it was written quite soon after an event. The thing about research is that no information is bad information. You might try and read a book that makes references to stuff you had no idea existed, but if you have a notepad at hand you can note down things you don't understand and can look up further. I find keeping a notepad to be extremely helpful in keeping track of ideas, quotes, books to read and so on so maybe you'd benefit from that? If I'm researching a topic I also make a folder on my computer where I keep photographs and little text files about things, sometimes as an exercise I might look at a photo then try to describe it through writing. Although saying all that you already know a lot of details about people as you are a person with emotions that bad poo poo has happened to as well as the odd moment of happiness. I'm also supposing you have friends and family which is another excellent source of information. Unless you're talking about just having a lack of general knowledge? Civilisation by Kenneth Clark is a good documentary, as is Cosmos by Carl Sagan. They give a nice base about science, art, history and people.
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Sep 27, 2012 13:04
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After taking a fairly long break from working on editing my novel I came back to it and realized just how much the person I saw as the protagonist really kind of isn't. In fact, she's based more closely on my ex-wife than I thought. This wasn't my intention and makes me a bit crazy. This character's actions are incredibly bitchy, but I was still trying to frame them as if she was always right and good and pure and Jesus this is way too much like the last two years I spent with the ex. "No, no. She's great. I promise. It's me that's the problem." Fuuuuck. I'm saying that I wrote a mega-bitch but hadn't embraced it. Time to rewrite like mad to properly frame who this character really turned into during the writing process and make her more of her own being rather than this square peg I was trying to force into a round hole. She isn't without her good qualities and I actually really like her as this flawed thing that I hope I can flesh out in the edits. She'll be far more interesting this way. I had planned this as a three book series, and now this arc for her character has become crystal clear. She may be the main viewpoint for this thing, but she's not the one who is clearly in the right most of the time. In fact, these guys who are floating around her (an ex-husband who can't get over her and an old flame that's back in her life after 15 years) are probably going to end up having to grow some backbones and leaving her entirely in the end. I think I'm going to write a reverse-romance here. The two characters I had intended to fall back into love would really be better off moving on. I suppose we'll see what they end up doing if I ever get this thing done (since I might just still put them together as the audience screams "WHAT ARE YOU DOING! HE'S CLINGY AND SHE'S SELFISH!"), but stepping away and coming back has given me a perspective that I think is going to make this end up being a much more interesting story. In the end this is still going to be a plot-driven confection, but I think my craft is improving by leaps and bounds working on it. It's the kind of book I think I can get my Mother to read, if that makes any sense. I'll save my more literary aspirations for when I have more experience.
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Sep 27, 2012 13:43
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My latest story has me pretending I know how to write Mayan. I found a Mayan-Spanish dictionary online, so I run English>Spanish through google translate and then approximate the words.
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Sep 27, 2012 13:48
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Geekboy posted:After taking a fairly long break from working on editing my novel I came back to it and realized just how much the person I saw as the protagonist really kind of isn't. In fact, she's based more closely on my ex-wife than I thought. This wasn't my intention and makes me a bit crazy. Don't be too hard on yourself, man. Seriously. I think every great novelist has spent their entire writing career writing long couched messages to themselves. We have been watching the greatest minds of our times beat themselves up on the page.
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Sep 27, 2012 14:05
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Overwined posted:Don't be too hard on yourself, man. Seriously. I think every great novelist has spent their entire writing career writing long couched messages to themselves. We have been watching the greatest minds of our times beat themselves up on the page. Thanks. I don't intend to let this character be so clearly influenced by my ex, but I've still got a character who is pretty close to me that I plan on making GBS threads on constantly to make up for it. That's what author-inserts are for, right? To have a place I can pour all my self-hatred out on to, right? Right, fellas? I mean, if the character that your family and close friends will recognize as being a bit like you doesn't end up making them feel uncomfortable because of all the terrible things that happens to them you're not doing it right, are you? Is that just me, then? **Please note: This is not actually an author-insert. I hope. Because those are normally terrible. I'm emphasizing for attempted humor. "Attempted."
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Sep 27, 2012 14:25
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bengraven posted:Anyone already planning what to write for NaNo? I feel like this should be the time we get the CC writers IRC channel back up and running for sprints and other activities. I won't be doing the full 50k word thing but I'll be using Nano and the month as incentive to hunker down on a project I've already started. Would be up for hanging with other writers for ideas and critiques for the month.
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Sep 27, 2012 14:25
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Canadian Surf Club posted:I feel like this should be the time we get the CC writers IRC channel back up and running for sprints and other activities. I won't be doing the full 50k word thing but I'll be using Nano and the month as incentive to hunker down on a project I've already started. Would be up for hanging with other writers for ideas and critiques for the month. I would be for resurrecting the CC's IRC channel too. I intend to do Nanowrimo as I've been procrastinating like mad and, well Nano is a great chance to play around with concepts that you'd not normally do.
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Sep 27, 2012 17:39
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bengraven posted:Anyone already planning what to write for NaNo? SkySteak posted:I intend to do Nanowrimo as I've been procrastinating like mad and, well Nano is a great chance to play around with concepts that you'd not normally do. Does wonders for the productivity.
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Sep 27, 2012 21:11
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I am a big negative nancy, I know, but I hate NaNo. I know some talented people who say they're "saving up" for it. Makes me sad. If it's a good kick in the pants for you guys, though, I can't hate on it too bad.
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Sep 27, 2012 21:17
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I should mention that I'm not "saving up" for NaNo. If I didn't try to keep my output even throughout the year I would be doing something wrong.
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Sep 27, 2012 21:23
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bengraven posted:Anyone already planning what to write for NaNo? I've started on the outline but I'm pretty scared of giving up in the first week because 1: I've never written more than a couple of pages for any project and 2: I'm in my last year of college and I can't guarantee I can write 2000 words a day. I do like the idea I have right now though. It basically combines a large amount of the ideas I've had over the years but it might add a certain level of entertainment to it as well. I've always dreamt of writing like Henry Miller but I don't have the genius or intelligence to write like that, and I don't know if I have the imagination to think up intricate plots. I just still have to decide to write it in either a diary format(which I really don't like the idea of, but will grant me much more flexibility) or simply in first person. I always find perspective to be the most difficult decision, and writing it out both ways never seems to convince me of either...
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Sep 27, 2012 21:37
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NaNo is great if I'm stuck in a rut because it lets me go "gently caress it" and put 50,000 terrible words to page that I can edit later. I'm a neurotic prick about writing at the best of times and it's nice to have a venue where it's 100% about the massive wordcount and I can just screed my way to completion. Editing is the true art and that comes in the months afterwards.
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Sep 27, 2012 22:49
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bengraven posted:Anyone already planning what to write for NaNo? What is this 'planning' thing you're talking about? NaNoWriMo is about the writing, man. Not this planning, outlining, thinking bull. When November starts I'm just going to spew 1667 words directly from my brain to the monitor and I won't look back until November is over. The embarrassment from the poo poo I've written comes after that.
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Sep 28, 2012 04:40
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toanoradian posted:What is this 'planning' thing you're talking about? NaNoWriMo is about the writing, man. Not this planning, outlining, thinking bull. When November starts I'm just going to spew 1667 words directly from my brain to the monitor and I won't look back until November is over. Uggggghhh, I did this about five years ago and dear lord. I might try again this year though, because I have an idea with an actual plot arc that's been jumping around my brain for a month. If I can actually get some brainstorm and general outlining done, I might be able to use Nano to write a real first draft. It will be a goddamned awful piece of poo poo, of course, but my first drafts always are.
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Sep 28, 2012 06:59
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An interesting article on "Write What You Know."
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Sep 29, 2012 08:39
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quote:Here is happening-truth, I was once a soldier. There were many bodies, real bodies with real faces, but I was young then and afraid to look … This made me go "Holy crap, that's so right" in my head. I love it when that happens.
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Sep 29, 2012 22:35
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Good article, especially the point about using what you know as the scaffolding for your work, rather than the main point. The phrase really should be changed to "write with what you know." That said, I think the idea of writing what you don't know can be taken too far (like any other writing advice), but at heart it's good advice. Though I will also admit, there are times when I've read stories where the writer's basically writing about themselves, but I've liked it since it deviates from the typical perspectives taken in fiction (at least the stuff on reading lists in English classes) and give voice to marginalized/"other" perspectives.
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Sep 29, 2012 23:09
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