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800peepee51doodoo posted:My brother just posted this on fb: Earn your success! Can't afford health care for that malignant tumor you got through bad luck? gently caress you, die in a gutter, this system is the fairest and does the most for the neediest and if you can't earn your healthcare maybe you should stop preaching communism you loving handout dependent shill. What a terrible video. Particularly the immediate appeal to how data can't trump emotional appeals while at the same time ignoring data that contradicts the presented worldview. And then the Greece thing,  dishonest video maker, gently caress right off.
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Oct 2, 2012 02:20
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You shouldn't eat your dead dog. Therefore, capitalism.
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Oct 2, 2012 02:24
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800peepee51doodoo posted:My brother just posted this on fb: But according to this video, free enterprise "promotes real fairness" and "does the most good for the most vulnerable"! This video starts off arguing with several assumptions. "We know the moral arguments against free enterprise do not hold water." We do? What are those arguments? No rebuttal? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOP2V_np2c0 Much better! Ghost of Reagan Past posted:You shouldn't eat your dead dog. Therefore, capitalism. This. The moral arguments against Free Enterprise do not hold water because EDIT: Bad spellin Mitchicon fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Oct 2, 2012 |
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Oct 2, 2012 02:24
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800peepee51doodoo posted:My brother just posted this on fb:  This Just In! Conservative Think Tank Designed To Promote Corporate Causes Claims Capitalism Is Good!Shocking, absolutely shocking! Much more surprising is when someone from the AEI writes an opinion piece about why Conservatives should embrace Obamacare. It really shouldn't be that surprising, considering it's just admitting the truth that Obamacare is really the 1990's Republican Healthcare Plan; but considering what has transpired the past four years it kind of is.
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Oct 2, 2012 02:32
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Sarion posted:Much more surprising is when someone from the AEI writes an opinion piece about why Conservatives should embrace Obamacare. the article posted:Social conservatives’ hostility to the health care act is a natural corollary to their broader agenda of controlling women’s bodies. These are not the objections of traditional “conservatives,” but of agitators for prying, invasive government — the very things they project, erroneously, onto the workings of the president’s plan. Decrying the legislation for interfering in the doctor-patient relationship, while seeking to pass grossly intrusive laws involving the OB-GYN-patient relationship, is one of the more bizarre disconnects in American politics.
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Oct 2, 2012 02:41
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Yeah, I particularly liked that paragraph as well.
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Oct 2, 2012 03:15
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the article posted:Social conservatives’ hostility to the health care act is a natural corollary to their broader agenda of controlling women’s bodies. These are not the objections of traditional “conservatives,” but of agitators for prying, invasive government — the very things they project, erroneously, onto the workings of the president’s plan. Decrying the legislation for interfering in the doctor-patient relationship, while seeking to pass grossly intrusive laws involving the OB-GYN-patient relationship, is one of the more bizarre disconnects in American politics. Is there a term for projecting one's own weaknesses/agenda on to one's opponent? It seems like this is done a lot.
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Oct 2, 2012 03:21
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Mitchicon posted:Is there a term for projecting one's own weaknesses/agenda on to one's opponent? It seems like this is done a lot. If not it should probably be something like "Rove's Law".
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Oct 2, 2012 03:31
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Sarion posted:If not it should probably be something like "Rove's Law". Someone needs to make a Wikipedia article and cite this thread.
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Oct 2, 2012 03:41
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Since everyone loves facebook argument chat; a high school friend of mine is using his GI bill and low student loan rates to go to law school. Voter ID discussion   Basically, arguing with a wall (literally) Goatman Sacks fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Oct 2, 2012 |
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Oct 2, 2012 04:15
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Haha, that old white guy at the end adds nothing at all for his side just chimes in with "lol dumb libs" WHOA YOU SHUT THAT WHOLE THING DOWN GUESS VOTER ID LAWS ROCK
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Oct 2, 2012 04:27
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800peepee51doodoo posted:My brother just posted this on fb: Oh Good The Grade Redistribution Thought Experiment, that isn't the single most idiotic, disingenuous, and flawed argument ever to loving exist on the goddamn planet Earth. I like to give opposing arguments a chance so I watched that whole video, but it was like pulling loving teeth. It's like every lovely chain email rolled into one youtube. All it needed was the guy closing with a smug "welcome to the Republican party".
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Oct 2, 2012 04:27
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Goatman Sacks posted:Since everyone loves facebook argument chat; a high school friend of mine is using his GI bill and low student loan rates to go to law school. Voter ID discussion Pink drives me crazy. "Nice attitude...worry about what you don't have and be resentful." How can you think income inequality on that scale is okay? How does that possibly contribute to a real democracy? Also, I hate when veterans/servicemembers bitch about the "lazy poors" and welfare-queen unicorns. They've no idea how lucky we are to have the GI Bill (assuming you know how to use veteran benefits). I'd much rather do another deployment to Afghanistan than live the poo poo life of the underclass (granted, I was support not infantry). The military shouldn't be one of the few ways to achieve social mobility. I am eternally grateful that it is a stepping stone to an education but there should be more alternatives. Being a veteran can bring a certain amount of privilege and this guy is a good example.
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Oct 2, 2012 04:29
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Goatman Sacks posted:Since everyone loves facebook argument chat; a high school friend of mine is using his GI bill and low student loan rates to go to law school. Voter ID discussion You undoubtedly have the right conclusion, but I've found that it's fruitless trying to convince people like them that it's genuinely difficult for some people to get through the various hoops to vote. Trying to break their prejudices about lazy people and minorities is like trying to bore through a concrete wall with a spoon. Instead I try to put the spotlight on the fact that voter ID laws affect poor people and minorities disproportionately (and that it is designed to) and that it's made in response to a nonexistent problem. Ask them if they like needless government bureaucracy and if they dodge that question, hammer the poll tax and literacy test comparisons, because that's what voter ID laws are. Tell him your position is that all Americans should be able to vote with the least restriction as possible. You did all that, but in my experience, making all that stuff the central focus of the debate works better than trying to use anecdotal appeals about the difficulty of someone being able to vote.
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Oct 2, 2012 04:54
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Goatman Sacks posted:Since everyone loves facebook argument chat; a high school friend of mine is using his GI bill and low student loan rates to go to law school. Voter ID discussion Perfect time to troll him. Tell him to stop sucking on the government's tit and pay his own way through college. Didn't he save any money while he had free room and board? Nobody else received a handout like that while working and they can still get to college. Why can't he? Bonus points, if you call him a welfare queen and mention something about YOUR TAXDOLLARS being wasted creating another useless lawyer. (Granted this would be a really bad idea if he was infantry and was in battle)
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Oct 2, 2012 04:57
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Tell him to shred his driver's license, birth certificate and DD-214 and see how much time and money it takes to get it all back. If he refuses then obviously he's just too lazy because it's just so easy to do.
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Oct 2, 2012 05:01
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Sporadic posted:Perfect time to troll him. It always amuses me to see all my former military buddies post stuff like, "Some people wake up every morning to freedom, some wake up to defending it" on their wall...and their jobs are admin or tech support. Dr. Arbitrary posted:Tell him to shred his driver's license, birth certificate and DD-214 and see how much time and money it takes to get it all back. If he refuses then obviously he's just too lazy because it's just so easy to do. You'd think that someone who has dealt with annoying government bureaucracy would know how difficult it can be to deal with. Also, gently caress the Just World Fallacy.
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Oct 2, 2012 05:07
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Christ, I never know what to think of my military service in those terms. I was sigint, and my job was weird even for intel.
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Oct 2, 2012 05:13
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VideoTapir posted:Christ, I never know what to think of my military service in those terms. I was sigint, and my job was weird even for intel. It's weird to think of my own. While deployed we had weekly mortar attacks but I also got steak and lobster every Friday. But hey, you guys wouldn't be posting on this website if it weren't for ARE TROOPS. That being said, the GI Bill owns and it was all worth it to go to school with no debt.
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Oct 2, 2012 05:16
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I have 18 months left...I think I'll go for another graduate degree before it expires.
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Oct 2, 2012 05:17
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If you feel like one more honest crack at those people, try pointing that many DMVs aren't open 7 hours a day, five days a week and have a link to one of those weird ones only open the third Wednesday of the month or whatever.
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Oct 2, 2012 05:22
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VideoTapir posted:I have 18 months left...I think I'll go for another graduate degree before it expires. I hope your graduate degree is in FREEDOM. The sad part of the Voter ID push is that the leadership behind it is literally doing it to disenfranchise the poor. No blindness to the goal for those behind it in the political circles. People like the guy in the Facebook argument are along for the ride but fail to see that it is totally and 100% made to target the lower classes. This is an issue with no gray area, a good example of gently caress The Poor.
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Oct 2, 2012 05:25
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I could just fill these pages up thanks to facebook (but I won't) I have a crazy old uncle (not really old, in his 40's) who was in the army in the early 90's, is a Ron Paul fanatic, lives in the woods in maine, and constantly posts image macros (15-20 a day sometimes, and reposts them under his business facebook account, then his girlfriend reposts them again) all about the NDAA (constantly posting a list of congress that voted for it, and their contact info so you can bitch at them) and anti-obama and anti-romney and pro-gun and survival etc. The one he just posted has a Spanish guy holding sign that says: "I might be illegal but i'm not a criminal" and says: Irony is wasted on the stupid. He also sent me a message not long ago as a "heads up" that his friend that works Homeland Security is selling his house, cars, etc, packing up his guns and family and moving to the mountains and his friend tells him the poo poo is about to hit the fan.
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Oct 2, 2012 05:30
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I like the last guy. "TYPICAL LIB WANTING THE GOVERNMENT TO TAKE CARE OF YOUR PROBLEMS THAT THEY CREATED!"
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Oct 2, 2012 05:42
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I figure a good angle of attack on Voter ID is to ask why, if it's so important to stop voter fraud, they don't start with absentee ballots. The vast majority of fraud comes from absentee ballots and in person voting has so little fraud as to make no difference. The real answer is of course that absentee voting skews heavily conservative. On a related note, I was always amused/annoyed when conservatives cited people registered twice by ACORN as clear intent of voter fraud rather than, say, someone who is unsure whether they are registered to vote registering again just to be safe.
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Oct 2, 2012 06:08
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Obamacare? You don't want the DMV to run hospitals, do you? Voter ID laws? What're you, too loving lazy to run down to the DMV?
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Oct 2, 2012 06:14
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Get government out of our lives! Except when it comes to exercising your right to influence it. Also vaginas.
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Oct 2, 2012 06:23
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Goatman Sacks posted:Since everyone loves facebook argument chat; a high school friend of mine is using his GI bill and low student loan rates to go to law school. Voter ID discussion Ugh. I remember when I was living in Rochester, NY and I had to go renew my ID after it expired. When I got the ID, it was simple because all I had to do was go downtown to the DMV office which was in the same building as the local community college. It took all of 10 minutes to get there by bus. Five years later when my ID expired, the county clerk decides to permanently close the downtown DMV office. That left anyone without a driver's license or their own car to have to travel to the suburbs to get to the DMV. While there were 3 suburban offices, only 1 was on a bus line. Which meant poor city residents had to travel for an additional 20-30 minutes on top of the time needed to get downtown by bus, to get to this one office. After the downtown DMV office was closed, it wasn't uncommon to see lines for the 1 transit accessible DMV running past its doors. No more easily accessible office in the city's central business district. So when I traveled (1 hour by bus) to the suburban DMV office to renew my ID, waited in the line that started outside the building, I was told that because I didn't have my birth certificate, I couldn't renew that day. So I had to come back the next day with my birth certificate to renew. Keep in mind that Rochester is a mid-size city in Western New-York. This was just to renew my New York State ID. If Voter ID were a thing, imagine someone having to go through what I went through just to vote. Imagine if they're elderly, disabled, or even if they live in one of New York's rural counties. This would cause American citizens an undue burden to exercise one of their Constitutional rights. And for what? Something that has never been proven to be problematic. constantIllusion fucked around with this message at 07:03 on Oct 2, 2012 |
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Oct 2, 2012 06:57
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Dr Christmas posted:If you feel like one more honest crack at those people, try pointing that many DMVs aren't open 7 hours a day, five days a week and have a link to one of those weird ones only open the third Wednesday of the month or whatever. Sauk County, with a population of 61,000. Part of Wisconsin's 3rd Congressional district, Democratic held since 1997. There are three places to get your license, and all up they will be available for 13 days total between 1st of October and election day. If you have to use the Salk City site, you can get a drivers license on the 31st of October, the 30th of January 2013, 29th of May 2013, 31st of July 2013 and 30th of October 2013. Baraboo service center 1000 Log Lodge Road Baraboo, WI 53913 Hours: 7 a.m.-5 p.m. - Monday, Wednesday Reedsburg service center Town Hall 600 W. Main Street Reedsburg, WI 53959 Hours: 8:15 a.m.-4 p.m. - 1st, 2nd, 3rd Wednesday of the month Sauk City service center - Driver License/ID Renewal Office Community Center 730 Monroe Street Sauk City, WI 53583 Hours: 8:15 a.m.-4 p.m. - 5th Wednesday of any month
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Oct 2, 2012 09:23
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In rural Nebraska there are DMV offices open a few days a year. Oh, and on those days they're only open for a few hours. Sioux County and Harlan County are the worst offenders, IIRC. And in Cass County, which is just south of Omaha and east of Lincoln (so it's not exactly rural), they're open two days a week...and closed for lunch. Oh, and they only have one office so if you're not in that town, get ready to spend your day driving and waiting in line, hopefully getting your ID. The Unicameral shot down our voter ID law, thank God. And while these counties only have a few thousand people (Sioux County has under 1,500), we shouldn't be disenfranchising anyone for choosing to live in the middle of nowhere. "Heh, you live there? Can't vote." Ghost of Reagan Past fucked around with this message at 14:18 on Oct 2, 2012 |
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Oct 2, 2012 14:16
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evilbastard posted:Sauk City service center - Driver License/ID Renewal Office Why you so lazy?  THE GAYEST POSTER posted:I like the last guy. "TYPICAL LIB WANTING THE GOVERNMENT TO TAKE CARE OF YOUR PROBLEMS THAT THEY CREATED!" Yeah, I wish the government hadn't given us the right to vote, then we wouldn't have to worry about voter fraud! As for the facebook voter ID thread; I would respond with something like this: Yes, the laws do negatively impact typical Republican voters; no one said they can get the IDs and typically Democratic voters can't. The reason Republicans are pushing for these laws is because the number of Dems affected outnumbers the Republican voters affected. But I'm opposed to the idea of making it difficult for anyone to exercise their most important right; even the people who I am certain will vote differently from me. Especially when it's done in an effort to prevent a non-existent problem. However, if you're seriously scared that there are thousands of people casting 1-3 extra votes, here's what any voter ID law must do: 1) It can't go into effect a few months before an election. If you want to pass a voter ID law in 2012, fine, but make it go into effect for the 2014 election. 2) It must define and create a Voter Identification card that is valid for use at the polls. The card must begin to be available January 1st, 2013. 3) It has to be free for all eligible voters; I don't care if you make $5000 a year and are on TANF, or you make $10M a year. If you're eligible to vote, the State will bear the cost of getting you a card. 4) It has to be available at numerous, accessible locations open at a variety of hours. Early morning locations, late evening locations, weekend hours. Open multiple days a week, every week. And provide good, easy to find information about locations and hours online. If the law does that, I still won't support it because it's stupid to waste tax payer money to fix nonexistent problems. But at least I won't oppose it; I can tolerate stupid laws that don't negatively impact people. Sarion fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Oct 2, 2012 |
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Oct 2, 2012 15:13
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Does anyone have a good source for the "absentee ballots are a big problem" claim? It gets thrown around a lot, and I have plenty of sources for "in person fraud is exceedingly rare" but I'd love to be able to show that I do care about voting fraud in these arguments.
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Oct 2, 2012 15:53
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Boxman posted:Does anyone have a good source for the "absentee ballots are a big problem" claim? It gets thrown around a lot, and I have plenty of sources for "in person fraud is exceedingly rare" but I'd love to be able to show that I do care about voting fraud in these arguments. I don't think it is a big problem, it's just that it is a bigger problem and easier to commit than in person fraud. I'm not sure either is big enough to be worth addressing though. That's from what I remember having read in the past, unfortunately I don't have a good source for you with specifics.
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Oct 2, 2012 15:56
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Sarion posted:I don't think it is a big problem, it's just that it is a bigger problem and easier to commit than in person fraud. I'm not sure either is big enough to be worth addressing though. That's from what I remember having read in the past, unfortunately I don't have a good source for you with specifics. Here's a great interview on Fresh Air. The first part is with a Republican legislator trying to pass a voter ID law. The second part is a college professor who studies voter fraud pretty much disputing everything the first guy had to say: http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=158869947 quote:PERSILY: Yes, it happens. But the size of the problem is, as I've described it, passing a voter ID law in order to get at that scale of a problem is like killing a fly with a bazooka. There's a lot of collateral damage and that the - it is true that we will have non-citizens voting, we will have ineligible felons that will vote, we will have people who will vote sometimes in the name of another. But we're talking about isolated instances. Unfortunately he doesn't directly address how widespread absentee voter fraud is. I still get the feeling it isn't that big of an issue.
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Oct 2, 2012 17:23
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There was some fucker on NPR last night who was saying that they don't have to prove voter fraud exists to have these laws, because (mostly southern)states have a vested interest in making sure voters are confident in fair elections. Sadly, the host didn't say "counterpoint: the last 200 years"
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Oct 2, 2012 17:41
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musclecoder posted:Here's a great interview on Fresh Air. The first part is with a Republican legislator trying to pass a voter ID law. The second part is a college professor who studies voter fraud pretty much disputing everything the first guy had to say: Thanks for this. I only just started reading it and had to stop at the Republican's first sentence, "Well let's just say a common-sense policy..." I didn't get any further than that before  I hate "common-sense" anything so much; all it ever really means is "we don't have any evidence to support our claim", like every loving time. If you don't have evidence, just claim common-sense. Can't argue with that stupid libtards  E: This part made me chuckle: quote:
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Oct 2, 2012 17:47
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Common sense is neither. It is what science was specifically created to combat.
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Oct 2, 2012 17:52
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Sarion posted:Thanks for this. I only just started reading it and had to stop at the Republican's first sentence, "Well let's just say a common-sense policy..." I didn't get any further than that before It's an incredibly effective rhetorical strategy. No one checks sources--it's why we've seen an entire media specialization in fact-checking. It's tedious, technical, time-consuming, and often subjective. So, to get around evidence and the fact-checking involved, you just claim common sense. The factual value of common sense is obviously totally negligible, but it's sorely underestimated rhetorically. I'd argue one of the biggest reasons for Bill Clinton's success is his skill in taking liberal positions and finding a way to apply 'common sense' to them. That is, to describe them using 'common sense' platitudes. Take for example his speech at the DNC. He boiled down all kinds of statistics, logical reasoning, and history to "The GOP thinks it's every man for himself. We say we're all in this together." Common sense. Resounding success. People eat it up. XyloJW fucked around with this message at 17:56 on Oct 2, 2012 |
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Oct 2, 2012 17:54
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Goatman Sacks posted:There was some fucker on NPR last night who was saying that they don't have to prove voter fraud exists to have these laws, because (mostly southern)states have a vested interest in making sure voters are confident in fair elections. Sadly, the host didn't say "counterpoint: the last 200 years" If it makes you feel better, I was listening to On Point earlier in the day and the host interrupted to basically make that exact statement. The Republican just kinda stuttered for a bit and moved on. Dude kept saying it was about increasing confidence even after the other guest literally said "yeah we've done studies on this and voter id laws have absolutely no effect on voter confidence because the people who believe in a non-existent problem are still going to think it's there anyway."
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Oct 2, 2012 18:06
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XyloJW posted:Take for example his speech at the DNC. He boiled down all kinds of statistics, logical reasoning, and history to "The GOP thinks it's every man for himself. We say we're all in this together." Common sense. Resounding success. People eat it up. I agree it is a very good rhetorical strategy, especially when you're needing to convince people with something like a speech where lots of information is just going to turn people away. The key, of course, is to have it still backed up with evidence. You're totally right about why it's done; it just pisses me off. And that NPR article is really a great read; even before the professor is brought on. I can just feel the anger from Metcalfe as the interviewer is questioning his reasoning and evidence. And then he comes right out and says he absolutely believes that the reason Democrats win in places like Pennsylvania is because the Democratic Party carries out voter fraud.
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Oct 2, 2012 18:12
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