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I actually haven't seen that many hooded rats in my local pet stores. Black and agouti berkshires and PEWs are pretty much it around here, which is part of why I was surprised to see that little gal.
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Sep 30, 2012 15:58
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Around here it's pretty much PEWs, with anything else a distinct second. They had some white rats with dark grey splotches over its back in Pets at home today and mannnn s/he was so cute. I think if I saw a blue rat in a pet shop I would suddenly be +1 rat. I picked up a cat litter tray for the rats to try, since they are still pretty much ignoring the corner one. I moved the corner one to back under the shelf, since they've been pooping under there a lot, and put the cat tray in its place. I got some loving adorable bowls too. One day these goddamn rats will be litter trained, and they will have cute bowls to eat from too 
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Sep 30, 2012 16:19
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RazorBunny posted:We went into a Petco last night and they had the most gorgeous blue hooded dumbo rat. So friendly, too. And female We're down to just one last old lady rat. I don't really want more rats because I'm tired of my heart being stomped on when they die, but pretty girl rats are my weakness.  Very tempting to go scoop her up.
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Sep 30, 2012 16:40
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The Petland where I got my girls seems pretty good, as far as these things go. I know that I should be ashamed of buying pet store rats, but there are seriously no real breeders anywhere near me. One of the downsides of living in a smaller city. That said, Petland has a very encouraging open-cage policy. Want to go play with the baby rats? That's fine, go ahead, don't even need to ask. They end up being at least fairly well socialised. Enough for a start, I guess.  Amelia and Molly, the brunette and the blonde.
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Sep 30, 2012 17:40
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Aww, your Molly looks like a darker/golden'y version of my Valentine  Does anyone have any experience with having an outdoor enclosure for rats? Obviously safety is the #1 priority, and they would be supervised 100% of the time, but I've been thinking of getting a rabbit/guinea pig run for them next spring so they can wander in the yard. It'd be neat to give them a digging box with soil in and let them go nuts, too.
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Sep 30, 2012 17:43
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I don't! But it's been something I've been considering. I've been thinking about getting this rabbit hutch, and staple-gunning chicken wire over the current bars. I don't have a backyard, but the in-laws do and I think the girls would appreciate getting fresh air and grass to play in. I would be a bit worried about Folly digging out, though.
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Sep 30, 2012 17:51
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Robomouse posted:The Petland where I got my girls seems pretty good, as far as these things go. I know that I should be ashamed of buying pet store rats, but there are seriously no real breeders anywhere near me. One of the downsides of living in a smaller city. That said, Petland has a very encouraging open-cage policy. Want to go play with the baby rats? That's fine, go ahead, don't even need to ask. They end up being at least fairly well socialised. Enough for a start, I guess. "Responsible" rat breeders are largely full of poo poo + crazy. You wouldn't be doing any better by getting rats from one.
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Sep 30, 2012 17:55
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Superconsndar posted:"Responsible" rat breeders are largely full of poo poo + crazy. You wouldn't be doing any better by getting rats from one. ... I should not be surprised by that. Ah well.
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Sep 30, 2012 18:18
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Invalid Octopus posted:I don't! But it's been something I've been considering. I've been thinking about getting this rabbit hutch, and staple-gunning chicken wire over the current bars. I don't have a backyard, but the in-laws do and I think the girls would appreciate getting fresh air and grass to play in. I would be a bit worried about Folly digging out, though. You could always staple some wire over the bottom to make sure she couldn't get out? If I do get a run I'll probably do that. Right now I'm eyeing up some very nice, very cheap hutch/run combos on ebay even though it'd probably sit in the basement for the next couple of months... For anyone who feeds grains, where/what sort of shops do you get the grains from? Searching for things like 'buy wholegrains online uk' doesn't really work that well 
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Sep 30, 2012 22:25
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Robomouse posted:... I should not be surprised by that. Ah well. Eh, Super is a little bitter towards ratladies for some unknown reason that I've never quite understood. The breeders I've dealt with locally are basically crazy dog ladies, but with rats. I think it's kind of weird to be obsessed enough with a specific kind of any animal to, like, make special trips to breeders, or obsessively track their bloodlines, or to get a special rat or dog or bird or whatever, but I realize it's A Thing, so I kind of roll with it. A lot of my adopters have had breeder rats before adopting from us, and in general I found them to be super relaxed, laid back, cuddly rats, moreso than the average rats we would get in. I can say that I never got in rats from the crazy "responsible breeders", and the one time someone tried, I emailed that rattery and they went and got the rats. I personally abhor pet stores, since they do overburden rescues in many ways -- Petland, Petco, and Petsmart here straight up have all tried to dump sick rats on us so they didn't have to deal with them, and I witnessed a Petsmart employee giving out our rescue info to a bunch of college kids to dump their rats "when they got tired of them" because we're "nice people".
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Sep 30, 2012 22:56
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Rodent Mortician posted:Eh, Super is a little bitter towards ratladies for some unknown reason that I've never quite understood. It isn't unknown and I'm not bitter, I've always been up front about why I hold the opinions that I do about them. They claim to breed for health and temperament while actually breeding for aesthetics. They do not track the long term health of what they produce as they claim to do, and breed rats with known health problems and temperament issues because they have insert-color-gene here that they just ~haveeeee~ to add to their lines. They're incredibly elitist and refuse to breed from unknown stock in spite of their lines being almost universally hosed. They're certainly not WORSE than any other breeder, they're just not particularly better. If they were up front about this, fine, but it bothers me that there's so much cognitive dissonance in the community as a whole about what they produce. They are almost exactly like conformation dog breeders/show ladies. There are exceptions. They're rare enough that it is safe to assume that the average person will not have access to those exceptions. If you can find one, great, by all means support them and get rats from them. quote:The breeders I've dealt with locally are basically crazy dog ladies, but with rats. I think it's kind of weird to be obsessed enough with a specific kind of any animal to, like, make special trips to breeders, or obsessively track their bloodlines, or to get a special rat or dog or bird or whatever, but I realize it's A Thing, so I kind of roll with it. They don't track poo poo. That's the problem. They say all the right words and when it comes down to it half of their records are either forged or don't actually exist at all. quote:A lot of my adopters have had breeder rats before adopting from us, and in general I found them to be super relaxed, laid back, cuddly rats, moreso than the average rats we would get in. I can say that I never got in rats from the crazy "responsible breeders", and the one time someone tried, I emailed that rattery and they went and got the rats. Yes, they tend to be more well socialized because they are handled from an earlier age. Woop-de-doo. When they develop genetic male aggression at 8 months or crap out from a pituitary tumor at a year, that added socialization won't matter. The rattery came and got their rats because they were called out and word would have gotten around if they hadn't. They're all ready to tear out each other's throats at a drop of a hat and if they thought for a second they could have ignored that call with no fear of being caught, they probably would. quote:I personally abhor pet stores, since they do overburden rescues in many ways -- Petland, Petco, and Petsmart here straight up have all tried to dump sick rats on us so they didn't have to deal with them, and I witnessed a Petsmart employee giving out our rescue info to a bunch of college kids to dump their rats "when they got tired of them" because we're "nice people". Yeah, "responsible" rat breeders dump stock on rescues too. They just lie about it and/or fabricate stories about the origins of the rats they're dumping and dump them with rescues who won't recognize them. Pet store rats are not "better" than breeder rats. They're all poo poo. The number of actually responsible rat breeders in the world can probably be counted on 2 hands. When I say "don't bother with a breeder" I'm not saying "because pet store rats are less lovely or likely to be unhealthy," I'm saying it because they're all about the same as far as the quality of what they produce and at least pet store suppliers aren't lying to the public about why the exist. I don't think it's WRONG to get rats from a breeder, I just don't want someone to guilt themselves over not because there's really no need to. I didn't have some big falling out with the rat community or anything, I quit because I realized that perpetuating the same hosed up show lines wasn't doing anyone any good and decided that I was going to stop breeding for color and start selecting exclusively for health. When this resulted in the color leaving my lines, other breeders lost interest in my rats...in spite of the fact that I was very quickly on the road to eliminating a lot of issues in those lines within just a few generations. I was unable to get new stock, because I no longer had breeding goals that meshed with anyone elses (burmese and black eyed siamese were brand new and all the rage, and I didn't care) so I decided to start testing uknown stock. The second I did that, I became a "byb" in the eyes of just about everyone. No one freaked, and they mostly left me alone because I was knowledgeable, but no one was interested in anything I was doing and without the support or interest of the community, you're not improving fancy rats as a whole and it's all pretty futile. I continued to charge forward in hopes someone would give a poo poo a few years down the road when I had really fixed a lot of stuff, but then I brought home SDA and annihilated almost my entire colony and I just said gently caress it. I got results fast enough when I stopped breeding for color that there is absolutely no way "responsible" rat breeders are doing any of the things they say they are as far as improving the health of rats as a whole. No way. The community is insane and full of poo poo and yes, I find it disheartening. Supercondescending fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Oct 1, 2012 |
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Oct 1, 2012 00:01
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Well, I don't know. These are my first rats, and I can't imagine any rat being more cuddly and affectionate than Molly is, and I have an aunt who's a crazy dog breeder and she is certainly crazy and also not a nice person, so. It's maybe too easy for me to believe criticisms against breeders of any animal, just because I know what she's like.
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Oct 1, 2012 00:40
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I'll be going to a breeder for my next rat, only because I know they have more interesting colors/types. For our next rat, we're going to splurge on a boy (quoted about $200 from the vet for a neuter, we have all girls), so I'd like to get an especially handsome one. Especially since, with the neuter, he'll probably be a little bit longer lived. I live in Toronto, so drat big city, and literally the only breeders I've found only post on kijiji, and I'm sure they're pretty much only breeding for color/type. I certainly don't feel any better supporting one of these guys than I do supporting the (admittedly nice and independent, for whatever worth that is) pet store we've gotten the last few at. And I certainly don't feel bad about not going through rescue, because I volunteer at the city shelter and there aren't any rats most of the time, and when there are they're gone in less than a week. So the next rat will be purely based on being a ~~rex dumbo~~ boy in a pretty color.
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Oct 1, 2012 00:56
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My experiences with breeders have been....eh. Thankfully I've dealt with an okay one but that's been my only experience; most of my rats are either rescues or Petco rats (because there's a petco near here that is actually pretty drat decent, rates in like the top 10 in the nation iirc and the manager is a friend of mine). But even their stock is all breeders that said breeder didn't want (or "accidental" matings but I do not understand that with rats). There are some good pet stores and there are some good breeders. It's just a matter of finding them I guess? I don't know I'm rambling have a rat.  Speaking of irresponsible breeding though, my "friend" dumped a barely old enough to be weaned male rat on me because "oh well you know how to take care of rats". Bitch why do you even have this one if you were just gonna shove it on me  He's escaped TWICE already. Remember guys, half inch spacing in cages. It's a lifesaver.
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Oct 1, 2012 01:06
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Superconsndar posted:It isn't unknown and I'm not bitter, I've always been up front about why I hold the opinions that I do about them. They claim to breed for health and temperament while actually breeding for aesthetics. They do not track the long term health of what they produce as they claim to do, and breed rats with known health problems and temperament issues because they have insert-color-gene here that they just ~haveeeee~ to add to their lines. They're incredibly elitist and refuse to breed from unknown stock in spite of their lines being almost universally hosed. They're certainly not WORSE than any other breeder, they're just not particularly better. If they were up front about this, fine, but it bothers me that there's so much cognitive dissonance in the community as a whole about what they produce. They are almost exactly like conformation dog breeders/show ladies. I say "unknown" because it's virtually exactly the same as in any other species, yet anytime someone mentions going to a breeder in a dog thread, there's not a similar wall of text about the insanity of dog ladies. Maybe because there's a more vocal community of dog lovers here advocating going to responsible breeders, who knows. Superconsndar posted:They don't track poo poo. That's the problem. They say all the right words and when it comes down to it half of their records are either forged or don't actually exist at all. Ok, I have no way to either prove or disprove that. It seems pointless to claim to have records that don't exist and that most people will never ask for. Superconsndar posted:Yes, they tend to be more well socialized because they are handled from an earlier age. Woop-de-doo. When they develop genetic male aggression at 8 months or crap out from a pituitary tumor at a year, that added socialization won't matter. Having raised several litters here that were socialized from an early age (as in, literally touched from the day they entered the world), I would comparatively say that their rats were friendlier overall and tended to have very laid back, mellow dispositions. I get what you're saying as far as handling being important, but I'm also comparing this against rats I've personally raised. There were rats in those bunches that were friendly and would accept handling, but were just very high strung or nervous, and that was not something I saw a lot of in comparison. There is a genetic element to personality -- a border collie is never going to be a mellow laphound, and you're really never going to get a ton hero worship from a Shiba. Superconsndar posted:The rattery came and got their rats because they were called out and word would have gotten around if they hadn't. They're all ready to tear out each other's throats at a drop of a hat and if they thought for a second they could have ignored that call with no fear of being caught, they probably would. I don't understand how me emailing them and saying "Hey, are you familiar with Jane Smith? I think she's trying to dump some of your rats on us" is "calling them out". Had they not responded, I would have just taken the rats -- it's not like it's some community shaming. I want people to call me if "my" animals are being dumped. I extend the same courtesy to others. Comparatively, when local shelters have called rabbit breeders to pick up their tattooed rabbits, they were told to go ahead and euth. them. Or the awesome pigeon breeder who suggested we snap it's neck and chuck it in the garbage since it couldn't home properly. Superconsndar posted:Yeah, "responsible" rat breeders dump stock on rescues too. They just lie about it and/or fabricate stories about the origins of the rats they're dumping and dump them with rescues who won't recognize them. Thanks for letting me know where my surrenders are coming from! Actually, we don't generally get rats from breeders much at all. In this area, virtually all the pet breeders are doing fancy colors, hairless/rexes/double-rexes, and dumbos. >90% of our intakes are hooded, agouti, and PEWs -- which is coincidentally what the local pet stores and feeder breeders sell. Thinking back about rats that we have actually taken in, the most "exotic" ones have been a blue dumbo with some white blazing across the face, a mink girl, and a group of rats from a hoarder that were predominantly fawn hooded and incredibly inbred. I knew to ask the rattery mentioned above because the rats were blue dumbo rexes, and I'd otherwise never seen them around here. Superconsndar posted:Pet store rats are not "better" than breeder rats. They're all poo poo. The number of actually responsible rat breeders in the world can probably be counted on 2 hands. When I say "don't bother with a breeder" I'm not saying "because pet store rats are less lovely or likely to be unhealthy," I'm saying it because they're all about the same as far as the quality of what they produce and at least pet store suppliers aren't lying to the public about why the exist. Ok. I appreciate your opinion. I was offering a different one based on my experience dealing with local breeders and pet stores. I am sorry that it does not agree with yours. Superconsndar posted:I didn't have some big falling out with the rat community or anything, I quit because I realized that perpetuating the same hosed up show lines wasn't doing anyone any good and decided that I was going to stop breeding for color and start selecting exclusively for health. When this resulted in the color leaving my lines, other breeders lost interest in my rats...in spite of the fact that I was very quickly on the road to eliminating a lot of issues in those lines within just a few generations. I was unable to get new stock, because I no longer had breeding goals that meshed with anyone elses (burmese and black eyed siamese were brand new and all the rage, and I didn't care) so I decided to start testing uknown stock. The second I did that, I became a "byb" in the eyes of just about everyone. No one freaked, and they mostly left me alone because I was knowledgeable, but no one was interested in anything I was doing and without the support or interest of the community, you're not improving fancy rats as a whole and it's all pretty futile. That is unfortunately often the case in tightly knit communities of all animals. There's a certain "code" that is understood and if you step outside of it people don't want to work with you. Breeding unknowns is, in general, looked down upon in pretty much every species. It's not a rat thing -- if someone randomly started breeding mutts into English Bulldog lines, they wouldn't get praised for strengthening genetic diversity. Superconsndar posted:I got results fast enough when I stopped breeding for color that there is absolutely no way "responsible" rat breeders are doing any of the things they say they are as far as improving the health of rats as a whole. No way. The community is insane and full of poo poo and yes, I find it disheartening. Ok, I understand where you're coming from, but as I said, your experiences have not mirrored my own. I haven't seen any of my adopters that had breeder rats lose them particularly early (most of them also weren't particularly long lived, either, to be fair), nor have I seen them have any males with genetic aggression. The only pituitary tumor I personally have seen was in a baby PEW I grabbed out of the shelter with her sisters from unknown origin. (Confirmed by necropsy after she passed at around 4 months of age). I think it's important that you share your experiences, but really, the quality and ability of breeders is hugely varied (as they are in all species), and I think it's worthwhile for people to actually contact breeders in their area if they're interested in rats to see how these ratteries are run, rather than point blank painting them all as deranged, lying hoarders with tragically broken animals that are ticking time bombs. Re the Petco above: it's highly unusual for any large pet store to get locally from breeders, because, honestly, small scale breeders can't enter the kinds of contracts that these stores require. They have to be able to accept and refund and replace "broken" merchandise, and really only huge breeders have enough "stock" to replace broken merchandise. Rodent Mortician fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Oct 1, 2012 |
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Oct 1, 2012 02:36
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Rodent Mortician posted:I say "unknown" because it's virtually exactly the same as in any other species, yet anytime someone mentions going to a breeder in a dog thread, there's not a similar wall of text about the insanity of dog ladies. Maybe because there's a more vocal community of dog lovers here advocating going to responsible breeders, who knows. There is a lot of disdain for conformation breeders of dogs here, too. In general, people are fine with people going to retarded show breeders for a companion because 1) They would not be able to handle a dog bred to be anything but a lump, so advising them to go to a truly good breeder (a working one) would be bad advice. 2) The ethics of dog breeding are insanely convoluted and if you didn't give someone looking for a pet an easy answer, they'd shut down and go to Petland and buy the first thing they saw because gently caress it. There are a lot of contradictory elements that can't be distilled into a paragraph, so it ends up being "you know what yeah, go to a show breeder, at least they health test. Whatever." If I could get away with verbally barfing all over anyone who bought a conformation bred dog here, I would. The ~climate of pet island~ is such that that really wouldn't go over well and in all fairness, it WOULDN'T be helpful to someone looking for a companion dog, so I think that the people here who dislike show breeders just bite their tongues. quote:Ok, I have no way to either prove or disprove that. It seems pointless to claim to have records that don't exist and that most people will never ask for. Hivemind + other breeders ask for them. Adopters are an afterthought and everything in the rat community is done as part of the ratlady circlejerk. Most of them say "I breed for temperament and health!" and then chug right along churning out bullshit and because they're all patting each other on the back they don't even realize that they're full of poo poo. ....Just like in every other animal community. They all say that the health of rats ius hosed because of "feeder breeders" and they're just doing the best they can with something that can't really be fixed. It's horseshit, but they generally don't know that because they haven't tried to improve anything. I'd say on average, they tend to keep records of the rats they personally keep, but omit things that look really bad and ignore the rats they've adopted out as far as collecting info on their long term health. Again, there are exceptions. I'm making a generalization based on what I experienced with the community as a whole over the course of about 13 years. I got involved in rat shows as a kid and got out of the whole thing just a couple of years ago. quote:Having raised several litters here that were socialized from an early age (as in, literally touched from the day they entered the world), I would comparatively say that their rats were friendlier overall and tended to have very laid back, mellow dispositions. I get what you're saying as far as handling being important, but I'm also comparing this against rats I've personally raised. There were rats in those bunches that were friendly and would accept handling, but were just very high strung or nervous, and that was not something I saw a lot of in comparison. There is a genetic element to personality -- a border collie is never going to be a mellow laphound, and you're really never going to get a ton hero worship from a Shiba. ...Yes, temperament being genetic was kind of my point. The breeders in your area may be working with lines that do not have temperament issues. The generalizations I am making refer to the rat fancy as a whole, not one local community. From what I have observed of thousands of rats both from feeder and show stock, barring genetic temperament issues, being handled from birth has the biggest effect on the final temperament of the rat. There are other modifying factors, but I have taken rats from show lines, dumped them in a tank and raised them as feeders, and they didn't tame down any better than a pet store rat...and vice versa. In general, breeder rats are more likely to be friendly by default, but the differences are minute and when they DO have temperament issues, I did not see breeders do anything to eliminate them. quote:I don't understand how me emailing them and saying "Hey, are you familiar with Jane Smith? I think she's trying to dump some of your rats on us" is "calling them out". Had they not responded, I would have just taken the rats -- it's not like it's some community shaming. I want people to call me if "my" animals are being dumped. I extend the same courtesy to others. Comparatively, when local shelters have called rabbit breeders to pick up their tattooed rabbits, they were told to go ahead and euth. them. Or the awesome pigeon breeder who suggested we snap it's neck and chuck it in the garbage since it couldn't home properly. To be fair, there are some rat ladies who really do care a whole lot about the fate of their rats and it isn't fair of me to paint them with such a broad brush in that regard. I did, however, see a whole lot of feigned ignorance and sweeping under the rug from some of the biggest, most well known, most idolized of "responsible" breeders so I do tend to lmao softly when it comes to these situations, sorry. quote:Thanks for letting me know where my surrenders are coming from! Again, you're speaking of the rat breeders in your area, not as a whole. Actually, because of the way genetics work, it is likely that even in the bluest, rexiest, dumboest litter in the world, a few standard black or PEW or beige or mink babies will be thrown- dumbo is a simple recessive, as is blue, and that's just gonna happen. You don't know that those boring PEWs and black hoodeds weren't the culls from someone blue dumbo litter, even if they changed hands first before coming to you. Am I saying that's DEFINITELY the case? No, but it's more common than you think to dump the "uglies" on rescues and pet stores. Most of them quietly get sent to pet stores and are never spoken of again. quote:Ok. I appreciate your opinion. I was offering a different one based on my experience dealing with local breeders and pet stores. I am sorry that it does not agree with yours. Okay? Not sure why you're getting defensive. I'm glad you've got some nice local breeders there. If only things were that way on a larger, national scale! quote:That is unfortunately often the case in tightly knit communities of all animals. There's a certain "code" that is understood and if you step outside of it people don't want to work with you. Breeding unknowns is, in general, looked down upon in pretty much every species. It's not a rat thing -- if someone randomly started breeding mutts into English Bulldog lines, they wouldn't get praised for strengthening genetic diversity. Okay? Yes, that's true, but I'm not sure what it has to do with anything other that pointing out that other breeders of things are stupid and short sighted too. Yes, dog ladies are also dumb. Using english bulldogs as an example kind of proves my point. quote:Ok, I understand where you're coming from, but as I said, your experiences have not mirrored my own. I haven't seen any of my adopters that had breeder rats lose them particularly early (most of them also weren't particularly long lived, either, to be fair), nor have I seen them have any males with genetic aggression. The only pituitary tumor I personally have seen was in a baby PEW I grabbed out of the shelter with her sisters from unknown origin. (Confirmed by necropsy after she passed at around 4 months of age). Does your experience extend outside of one local/regional area? Again, I'm glad for you if you've got a b atch of good breeders in your area, but they're not the norm. Again, these things are often swep[t under the rug and kept hush hush and not documented even inside the community, so I'm not sure how you'd know. quote:
And that is what I always tell people, to go for it and get a breeder rat if they want. I get rats from breeders occasionally when I want pretty colors. I just don't want anyone to be under the delusion that they're doing anything more than getting a pretty, well socialized rat when they get one from a breeder as opposed to anywhere else. Again, responsible breeders who actually walk the walk are about as common as unicorns.
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Oct 1, 2012 04:35
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Fraction posted:For anyone who feeds grains, where/what sort of shops do you get the grains from? Searching for things like 'buy wholegrains online uk' doesn't really work that well Haven't tried individual grains yet but this site has everything http://www.ratrations.com/.
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Oct 1, 2012 10:30
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Superconsndar posted:...Yes, temperament being genetic was kind of my point. The breeders in your area may be working with lines that do not have temperament issues. The generalizations I am making refer to the rat fancy as a whole, not one local community. From what I have observed of thousands of rats both from feeder and show stock, barring genetic temperament issues, being handled from birth has the biggest effect on the final temperament of the rat. There are other modifying factors, but I have taken rats from show lines, dumped them in a tank and raised them as feeders, and they didn't tame down any better than a pet store rat...and vice versa. In general, breeder rats are more likely to be friendly by default, but the differences are minute and when they DO have temperament issues, I did not see breeders do anything to eliminate them. That's kind of been the entire point -- breeders vary widely from area to area, and I've been specifically stating that my knowledge is geographically appropriate and that I'm specifically not making broad and sweeping statements because things are hugely different in each area. Superconsndar posted:Again, you're speaking of the rat breeders in your area, not as a whole. Actually, because of the way genetics work, it is likely that even in the bluest, rexiest, dumboest litter in the world, a few standard black or PEW or beige or mink babies will be thrown- dumbo is a simple recessive, as is blue, and that's just gonna happen. You don't know that those boring PEWs and black hoodeds weren't the culls from someone blue dumbo litter, even if they changed hands first before coming to you. Am I saying that's DEFINITELY the case? No, but it's more common than you think to dump the "uglies" on rescues and pet stores. Most of them quietly get sent to pet stores and are never spoken of again. It must be pretty difficult to find a zillion friends to each dump two rats with me, staggering them at intervals and purchasing hundreds of dollars of junk from Petsmart to go with each pair. It's like rat Inception, man! We have to go deeper... seriously, I get what you're saying, but private surrenders are nearly always picked up at the surrendering person's house so that I can get the supplies too. Maybe they've got a supervillain lair with hidden other rats, but if they're willing to go that far then man, I'm willing to let them pretend. I understand it's common for unscrupulous breeders to dump animals at rescues. That's how I got my first set of 50 guinea pigs -- another rescue believed a breeder claiming to be a rescue. We get big groups of rabbits and hamsters that way too. We get at least 1-2 inquiries a week that are people who have bred animals trying to be cool about it and pretend like they just happen to need to get rid of their pets because they're moving to Zimbabwe or whatever. Oh, and they happen to be all PEWs and there are 10 and they're all 6 weeks old because they love PEWs. But as I said, it's extremely inefficient to dump individual pairs or trios of rats, all with complete habitats, from a different person each time. If they really wanted to dump them, they can just go down to the shelter and leave them in the overnight drop. I mean seriously, it's anonymous and free, and we pull from there anyway and advertise it heavily. Superconsndar posted:Okay? Not sure why you're getting defensive. I'm glad you've got some nice local breeders there. If only things were that way on a larger, national scale! I'm actually not that defensive, I'm just trying to understand your point of view. I understand you've dealt with many breeders across the nation, but realistically you're painting an entire group with very large brush strokes. Though you say that yours is a ~*~national~*~ viewpoint, realistically I'm in the southeast, and we are not the mecca of awesome animal husbandry. It could just be that actual halfway decent breeders don't get that involved in insane ratlady politics -- much like the halfway decent dog ladies. Superconsndar posted:Does your experience extend outside of one local/regional area? Again, I'm glad for you if you've got a b atch of good breeders in your area, but they're not the norm. Again, these things are often swep[t under the rug and kept hush hush and not documented even inside the community, so I'm not sure how you'd know. Unfortunately (or fortunately, I suppose), my direct experience is limited to the east coast corridor, although other rescues I've talked to across the country have typically had similar feelings on responsible breeders. Maybe we're all super special and just have great local breeders. It's actually an interesting dichotomy, because rat-only rescues tend to be very pro-responsible breeding, whereas mixed species rescues tend to be very anti-breeding in general, because climate of some individual species rescue communities is that there are no good breeders, and any breeding is bad. Superconsndar posted:And that is what I always tell people, to go for it and get a breeder rat if they want. I get rats from breeders occasionally when I want pretty colors. I just don't want anyone to be under the delusion that they're doing anything more than getting a pretty, well socialized rat when they get one from a breeder as opposed to anywhere else. Again, responsible breeders who actually walk the walk are about as common as unicorns. Yeah, that's the general consensus in virtually every species, it just seems so weird that it's such A Thing here. Maybe I have a kinder view since the other species I deal with it's nearly impossible to find responsible breeders. The "norm" for rabbit and guinea pig breeders in our area is to have them living out in a shed in bare metal cages, often giving terrible care advice, routinely dumping dozens of animals into the shelter and rescue system when they're overfull (or selling them to kids for $5 at the state fair), and often not even having a vet. So, like, a breeder who's huge problem is that she lied about Bluebell's real great-grandma doesn't set off the same alarms. Rodent Mortician fucked around with this message at 13:05 on Oct 1, 2012 |
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Oct 1, 2012 13:03
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Rodent Mortician posted:That's kind of been the entire point -- breeders vary widely from area to area, and I've been specifically stating that my knowledge is geographically appropriate and that I'm specifically not making broad and sweeping statements because things are hugely different in each area. I'm in the the southeast too. There are a couple of genuinely good breeders here, especially in Florida, and they have a decent network of decent breeders. I wouldn't consider them indicitive of the community as a whole though. quote:It must be pretty difficult to find a zillion friends to each dump two rats with me, staggering them at intervals and purchasing hundreds of dollars of junk from Petsmart to go with each pair. It's like rat Inception, man! We have to go deeper... seriously, I get what you're saying, but private surrenders are nearly always picked up at the surrendering person's house so that I can get the supplies too. Maybe they've got a supervillain lair with hidden other rats, but if they're willing to go that far then man, I'm willing to let them pretend.  You're really focused on the fact that I said that well known, "responsible" breeders have been known to dump rats. I'm glad you haven't observed it personally, I truly am. My experiences were different. quote:I'm actually not that defensive, I'm just trying to understand your point of view. I understand you've dealt with many breeders across the nation, but realistically you're painting an entire group with very large brush strokes. Though you say that yours is a ~*~national~*~ viewpoint, realistically I'm in the southeast, and we are not the mecca of awesome animal husbandry. It could just be that actual halfway decent breeders don't get that involved in insane ratlady politics -- much like the halfway decent dog ladies. Could be! I would really love it if there were people not breeding trainwrecks outside of the fancy. Maybe there are. Maybe my problem was trying to do it within the fancy, and improve the fancy itself, rather than just choosing to operate outside of it. quote:Unfortunately (or fortunately, I suppose), my direct experience is limited to the east coast corridor, although other rescues I've talked to across the country have typically had similar feelings on responsible breeders. Maybe we're all super special and just have great local breeders. It's actually an interesting dichotomy, because rat-only rescues tend to be very pro-responsible breeding, whereas mixed species rescues tend to be very anti-breeding in general, because climate of some individual species rescue communities is that there are no good breeders, and any breeding is bad. I get what you're saying. What I'm saying is that the vast majority of the responsible breeders the rescues support have a lot of dirty secrets once you start digging. Obviously, they're not going to be apparent to anyone else. My distaste for the rat fancy comes from the cognitive dissonance and constant bullshit and I think it's wrong that they put up the face that they do and earn the support of rescues, like yours, who don't know what's lurking beneath the surface. I am not saying that that is absolutely happening in your area. I am making a generalization. quote:Yeah, that's the general consensus in virtually every species, it just seems so weird that it's such A Thing here. Maybe I have a kinder view since the other species I deal with it's nearly impossible to find responsible breeders. The "norm" for rabbit and guinea pig breeders in our area is to have them living out in a shed in bare metal cages, often giving terrible care advice, routinely dumping dozens of animals into the shelter and rescue system when they're overfull (or selling them to kids for $5 at the state fair), and often not even having a vet. So, like, a breeder who's huge problem is that she lied about Bluebell's real great-grandma doesn't set off the same alarms. What I'm saying that you're not getting is that most rat breeders are just that bad, they just hide it behind a veil of knowledge that allows them to put up a front that looks good to the rest of the world. You can go "nu uh" all day, but it's true. At least the lovely rabbit and GP breeders are honest I guess.
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Oct 1, 2012 14:23
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killerwhat posted:Haven't tried individual grains yet but this site has everything http://www.ratrations.com/. I completely forgot about ratrations  I have a bag of reggie rat to go through then I'll buy a bunch of grains.anyway rat pix time!             Right now Chell is napping against my stomach, exactly like in the fourth pic. If she wasn't so warm I'd be freaked out every time I looked down and saw a retarded rat lying on her side like a bro. I'm probably not going to be able to introduce Lola to the rats properly, as she decided she was going to flinch and try to run off the couch whenever Chell ventured near her, which spooked the rat, which spooked the dog, and everyone was just all  Dumb beasties.
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Oct 1, 2012 20:18
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Fraction posted:
Just cram cheese down dog throats until rats aren't so scary! This jerk shakes rats for a living.   They'd get crunched if I didn't stand right on top of them, but I'll take what I can get.
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Oct 2, 2012 11:56
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Superconsndar posted:Just cram cheese down dog throats until rats aren't so scary! This jerk shakes rats for a living. He's taste testing that rat for later.
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Oct 2, 2012 14:58
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It looks like he's taste-testing the rat We have some decent breeders here in Australia, some who do actually keep records (I've seen them) and who don't ever breed from a rat who's had a health problem, or aggression against either other rats or people. As far as health, I've had three rats from a store and 4 from breeders. the ratio: Pet store rats: one in perfect health his whole life who died in his sleep at nearly 3, one with a few RIs who died of pneumonia at 2. One who was completely deaf, had chronic sniffles and noisy breathing from a young age who nonetheless lived to an old age with a tumor and was PTS at 2 yrs, 8 months. None of them were socialized but they warmed up to me and were very mellow. Breeder rats: None have died yet, I have two at about 2 years old who have been in perfect health until now(we moved recently and they currently have sniffles). Also two brothers from a different breeder who are about 10 months old. Very well socialized. One in perfect health, one chronic sniffler, very sensitive to dust etc. Extremely gentle, friendly and adventurous. The first breeder was aiming for health and temperament apparently, she never socialized her rats so she could see what their natural temperament was and know what to breed with. Healthwise she has done pretty well I think, as they are 2 now with no issues, but then my pet store rats never saw a vet until 2 either. I'll have to see how the next year goes. Temperament wise, one is timid but so sweet, licky, takes his food very gently, loves new baby rats. One was neutered for hormonal aggression and is now sweet. The second breeder made very clear to me that the litter I chose from were from an outcross and she didn't know what their health might be like. I take my rats to gatherings with breeders so she's up to date on how they turn out. While I think the breeders here try, they probably have a way to go. It may be like Super says and they don't try hard enough to improve health. I certainly wouldn't be against buying from a good pet store who treat their rats well. I pretty much conclude the only reason to buy from a breeder is if you want a well socialized baby, or a specific coat/color. They are both good reasons, but probably won't matter to everyone. Edit: ha, beaten on the taste testing remark  he really wants to eat that rat.Big Bug Hug fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Oct 2, 2012 |
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Oct 2, 2012 15:29
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I didn't mention this yet but my friend is an rear end in a top hat and basically dumped a rat on me a few weeks ago. I didn't post him in here yet because I thought she would take him back. NOPE.   He's young, like barely-been-weaned young.  I don't know if I can handle 8 rats, maybe I should start looking at rescues for this little guy. I named him Caesar though. My boyfriend wants to keep him but I'm ambivalent. He's cute but eight rats.
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Oct 2, 2012 15:49
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Superconsndar posted:Just cram cheese down dog throats until rats aren't so scary! This jerk shakes rats for a living. I absolutely love Moses & rat pix. He either looks like he's having a blast or like he is The Saddest Puppy. Can we get some more Moses (and other animals, guyssss) + rats itt? I'm pretty much gonna start shovelling cheese or ham soon yeah. She can be in the room unmuzzled while I have them out, sooo Pew! Pew!, there is no such thing as too many rats so shut up and post more about your new buddy
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Oct 2, 2012 18:24
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Fraction posted:Pew! Pew!, there is no such thing as too many rats so shut up and post more about your new buddy  He is tiny and cute and hooded and like chewing on my fingernails and that feels really weird.
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Oct 2, 2012 18:30
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Does that mean there are rats that don't like chewing on nails????  Why is it that when one of my rats is in heat she is the worst thing ever (jumps and squeaks when I try and pick her up, vibrates if I manage to catch her, constantly getting humped by the others) but the other two, who I'm pretty sure are her littermates, don't seem to show any symptoms of being in heat at all? Alice is usually second best rat but when she's in heat I just want to throttle her.
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Oct 2, 2012 18:33
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My main issue with pet store rats is the inhumane mill-type conditions many of them are bred and raised in. The majority of the quote-unquote responsible breeder set ups I have seen at least provide a pet-like environment. Health is a crapshoot in my experience, and most temperament issues can be remedied with some effort. One of my sweetest rats was a scared-to-death, bitey adult male from the SPCA, when I got him.
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Oct 2, 2012 18:59
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Well, Hurley is still hanging in there. The vet says he has permanent lung damage, he's always been so weak. But he's sweet as pie and I love him to death, so I will do whatever it takes to keep him happy, this includes lots of cuddle time. Have a rat.    Bonus Hector giving no fucks. 
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Oct 2, 2012 19:09
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Jin Wicked posted:My main issue with pet store rats is the inhumane mill-type conditions many of them are bred and raised in. That's what bothered me too until I learned that "actual" private breeders in this area were the ones supplying all of the local pet stores with rats that didn't have what they wanted markings-wise. But when in doubt, adopt. Good on you for getting a SPCA rat.
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Oct 2, 2012 19:17
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Are rats just waaaaay more popular as pets in America or something? I've literally never, ever seen a listing for them in any of the shelters or RSPCAs anywhere within about a two hour circle of me. The only place I've seen rats listed for adoption is through a couple of NFRS breeders' websites, when they've taken in unwanted rats to place them. It seems like you guys can walk into basically any shelter and get rats.
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Oct 2, 2012 19:24
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Fraction posted:Are rats just waaaaay more popular as pets in America or something? I've literally never, ever seen a listing for them in any of the shelters or RSPCAs anywhere within about a two hour circle of me. The only place I've seen rats listed for adoption is through a couple of NFRS breeders' websites, when they've taken in unwanted rats to place them. We can. We have a huge pet overpopulation here, not just rats. Walk into any shelter and there's loads of cats and dogs, and frequently if you go to the bigger shelters (Lollypop Farms in upstate NY, for example), you can rescue rats, snakes, ferrets, rabbits, hedgehogs, pigs, horses, and I saw a cow there once.
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Oct 2, 2012 19:31
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I've never had success introducing two males who were from breeders. No matter how much I wash them, spread them in yogurt/pudding/whatever smells and tastes great, cleaned the living hell out of their cages, toys, accessories, exchanged scent articles, how neutral the place smelled for weeks on end, they still would puff up, hiss, and remain aggressive to each other. I didn't want to have to go through and have to neuter all my boys. Then I ended up getting two single adult males from a hoarder situation and their introduction was amazingly easier than I had anticipated. Go figure. Breeders never asked me to report on their animal's health at all. It wasn't even in the contracts with the 3 I have gotten rats from. I offered myself to report in but I never got a response when I did. I've had breeder rats have weird uveitis eyeball issues, male rats having tumors come back multiple times, and a pituitary tumor in another. The first breeder I was in contact with in California had a gross house. Cat pee smell and the place was a mess. The last shelter "house" I tried to volunteer at recently was exactly in the same way. Why do some crazy animal ladies live in such filthy conditions? The animals appear to be in great condition all around but the rest of the house ends up being trashy. Now I just get rats from the Oregon Humane Society. $2.50 for each rat with the adoptions including a free vet visit. So I get a nice rat (or two, sometimes they have a 2 for 1 deal), a free vet visit, and makes room for another rat to be placed for adoption. Can't go wrong there. Ruby hiding in my spouse's hood at the vet's while her cagemate gets advice on his constant sneezing. (Ruby is fixed, no rat babies)     
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Oct 2, 2012 19:33
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For my area (SC) it's hit and miss. There's only a few shelters near me that take rats in but they're very general "all animal" shelters so very few actually specialize in rats. I don't think any of them in my area are SPCA affiliated though, as far as I'm aware. There are tons of people with rats though, and a glance at craigslist seems to confirm. There's not very many breeders other than the ones that supply the pet stores, and the few ~good~ ones are nearly impossible to find because they have no internet presence. There are TONS of reptile owners who breed feeders for food and profit though, so those sometimes end up at the pet stores too. They're not very well socialized. When it comes to specialized breeders, not really a lot going on there. But rats in general are a dime a dozen here. I'm kind of out of it right now so if some of that doesn't make sense that's why. Speaking of breeders though, I managed to contact Biscuit's breeder via the rescue since the information was there. They were a little nicer than I was expecting and wanted to know how he was doing and if I noticed any health problems and to keep them updated. Was unexpectedly decent-sounding. I was getting a hold of them to ask about if they knew of any weird health issues he might have and they immediately started sperging about BREEDING FOR HEALTH IF HE'S NOT HEALTHY THEN OH GOD MY WHOLE STOCK WHAT WILL I DOOOOO 
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Oct 2, 2012 19:38
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Olive Bar posted:Have a rat. His fur is GORGEOUS. 
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Oct 2, 2012 21:14
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daggerdragon posted:We can. We have a huge pet overpopulation here, not just rats. Walk into any shelter and there's loads of cats and dogs, and frequently if you go to the bigger shelters (Lollypop Farms in upstate NY, for example), you can rescue rats, snakes, ferrets, rabbits, hedgehogs, pigs, horses, and I saw a cow there once. That makes sense. It makes me laugh when I see UK ratladies go on about 'rescue a rat, don't buy from pet shop!!' when it is so easy to just go and find a rat in any shelter  I guess reptile owners aren't a major thing in Britland either in general so we don't even have a bunch of feeder-breeder rats stuck in shelter.Anyway I come bearing videos of rats on the run and also a brief vid of dog/rat interactions (sorry for the dark video!). Lola was a very good dog and didn't even think about trying to eat Chell when she ran off me and onto the floor, too. Once I brought out some food her mind went from 'oh god i'm terrified of this thing what is it omg' to 'oh hey you want me to do something, okay'. She kept wanting to make noises because the last time we did shaping, I was rewarding her that. To make this not just dog  Chell was much calmer about being near Lola when she wasn't flinching every time the ratlet moved toward her, only pooped a couple of times, and when she ran under the cage she came straight back out to me despite the lurking terrier.
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Oct 2, 2012 21:36
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Fraction posted:That makes sense. It makes me laugh when I see UK ratladies go on about 'rescue a rat, don't buy from pet shop!!' when it is so easy to just go and find a rat in any shelter I live in one of the biggest cities in NA, and there are currently 12 small mammals in the city shelter. No rats at all. Just checked the big private shelter and it has 17 small mammals, no rats. According to the city shelter they get adopted really quickly.
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Oct 2, 2012 22:05
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Amiss posted:His fur is GORGEOUS. It reminds me of a castor rex rabbit
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Oct 2, 2012 22:10
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Around here, they come in fairly frequently but how long they stay varies. I adopted a pair of fattie PEW guys a couple of weeks ago from another rescue that had been in rescue for over a year. In general, it seems like if the shelter has some of any kind of animal (ask me how I ended up with a dozen sugar gliders in my house ITT), other idiots with that animal start dumping them there because they realize they take them. Charlotte AC is constantly full of hamsters, rats, snakes, goats, you name it. The podunk shelters not as much because they either a.) outright refuse to take them because they don't have facilities or b.) hicks don't think about small furry things going to the shelter. We try to prioritize pulls by a.) weirdness, b.) podunkness of shelter, and then c.) whatever we know people are waiting to adopt.
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Oct 2, 2012 22:29
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re: rats and shelters: There are rat rescues in my region, but locally the shelters here rarely take in small animals. I've never seen rats at either of the shelters here. There was a batch of syrian hamsters not long ago, but that's about it and it took them months to get adopted. Big Bug Hug posted:It looks like he's taste-testing the rat The situation is MUCH better in australia- the stock there has far fewer health problems than americna and UK stock. They also have only a handfull of colors and markings at their disposal, so short of imports, there's less opportunity to wig out over trendy colors. Harder to gently caress up what they've got, and less of a motivation to. edit: I will find more moses plus rat pics
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Oct 3, 2012 11:57
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