|
Is anyone here going to NCAC by any chance?
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2012 19:59
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 08:55 |
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN7xYrm4EkM Last event of the year, but easily the funnest. I was driving the new M3 I bought yesterday.
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2012 01:53
|
|
|
My last event https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oV-lsMvEE3g The rest of the cars I recorded that event: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLH0SWxTSF_mZ1yj594OTtB0fCzfW0xJdl
|
|
#
?
Oct 8, 2012 22:43
|
|
|
Last Ottawa event of the year... one more at Picton airfield this weekend. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw7uofdn8Y4 Round we go!  Holy body roll!  Any feedback (things to work on) would be great!
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2012 02:53
|
|
|
TrueChaos posted:Last Ottawa event of the year... one more at Picton airfield this weekend. Not bad, but plenty to work on. I personally think the camera angle sucked, however there not much you can do in that car to "fix" it. Basically I had a hard time seeing the course until you were on top of it, and difficulty gauging how close you were to the cones, until I saw that you were way off (more on that later). Good things: you look ahead, most of the time. You are finding the next element and figuring out where you need to go before you complete the current one. Its a little hard to see from the video if you are doing it all the time, but you seem to be doing it most of the time. Its something you'll have to constantly work on, but you seem to understand the basics. "Bad" things: -From the video, it sounded like you coasted a lot. Generally you want to be either gas, brake, or modulating the throttle (keeping you speed up/small acceleration in sections where you can't go flat out). -It looked like you were several feet off of nearly every cone, especially in the turns that were over 90 degrees. If you are in a U-turn and you are 4 feet off that apex cone, you just went 8 feet out of your way (4 out and 4 back). Start aiming to hit cones until you actually do. It'll tell you where the body of the car ends and where you need to be. Then back off a bit so you stop hitting cones, but are still right on top of them. I'm assuming the camera was a gopro based on the fish eye distortion. Mount it on the rear quarter panel on one side of the car with the large suction cup so that you get a good view of how far off the cones you actually are. -Your steering inputs are late, and you need to connect features together. Turning early means you turn less, which allows you to go faster and straightens out the arcs thus minimizing distance. For connecting features together, study the slaloms. I saw you go up to a cone, turn, go straight, go to the next cone, turn, etc. The whole thing should be constant back and forth fluid motion. The steering wheel shouldn't be static and there shouldn't be any straight parts. Once you've got it linked together, you should notice you can carry a lot more speed. Then you should start working on "backsiding" the cones in the slalom. Basically you want to be turning so far ahead that you are starting to turn for a cone when you are next to the cone before it. If you draw a line between two cones in a slalom, you want to cross that line right on the backside of the first cone and start turning right around when you do that. Does your club allow you to ride in other people's cars? If so, I would recommend you take advantage of that. Ride in cars similar to yours (if possible) and pick out one major thing others are doing that you are not, such as slamming on the brakes. Then experiment with that thing on your runs for a few events. Remember, its cones in a parking lot. Don't get too focused on what you suck at to the point where its not fun. Its supposed to be fun, and most of your improvement comes from experience, pushing the limits a little bit each day, not trying to make massive improvements in one go. Brigdh fucked around with this message at 07:13 on Oct 10, 2012 |
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2012 07:09
|
|
|
Crustashio posted:Last event of the year, but easily the funnest. I was driving the new M3 I bought yesterday. Grats on the car. What year did you get?
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2012 07:45
|
|
|
Brigdh posted:Awesome advice! Thanks! This is exactly what I needed. Looking ahead is the one thing I've really been working on all season, and it has definitely helped. I'm normally closer to the cones, but we had 3 runs in either direction that day, and in both cases I coned my first two runs trying to get close to the cones, so my third run I backed off a bit to get a clean run in. It's definitely something I've been more conscious of lately - especially in 90 degree or more turns. I'll definitely try a different mounting position for the gopro next event. I've been doing as many ride alongs as I can, and it's definitely helping. If you had to pick one specific thing to work on next, what would it be? I find I can learn better if I try and focus on improving one bit at a time. And don't worry - I'm having way too much fun, I just like to improve! I wasn't sure what I should be working on next, as I wasnt able to get much advice at local events. I did... Maybe 2 events last year, + this season, so I'm still relatively new to this 
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2012 14:33
|
|
|
Ziploc posted:My last event Man you shift a lot. Next time do one of your runs without all the drops to 1st. I think you'd be surprised. In the 1st gear shift that goes from :37 - :50 you mat it for about 2.5s that entire time and hit some rev limiter in there. An upshift costs you about .2s. It's really surprising how often you should downshift even in a low power Miata. I'll admit though that the camera angle does make it fairly hard to see how tight the turns are. Speaking of getting close to cones. I got a good pic from one of the photographers at the last event. Only hit one cone that day and it wasn't that one. Was driving a buddies 155whp SSM car, man that was fun.  click for mega FatCow fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Oct 10, 2012 |
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2012 16:00
|
|
|
TrueChaos posted:Thanks! This is exactly what I needed. Looking ahead is the one thing I've really been working on all season, and it has definitely helped. I'm normally closer to the cones, but we had 3 runs in either direction that day, and in both cases I coned my first two runs trying to get close to the cones, so my third run I backed off a bit to get a clean run in. It's definitely something I've been more conscious of lately - especially in 90 degree or more turns. I'll definitely try a different mounting position for the gopro next event. I agree, only focus on improving one thing at a time, because what ends up happening is your normal skills suck a bit as you concentrate on the new thing, which ends up splitting you concentration as you try to keep you skills at their normal level while working on the new thing. I'd say steering is probably most important for you right now. Once you start getting it "right", it will unlock greater speed potential. Even though it sounds backwards, I've found that you generally need a minimum speed to drive a slalom correctly, and the faster you go, the easier it becomes. The back and forth weight shifts from faster speeds actually help turn the car (not drifting though)
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2012 17:06
|
|
|
Brigdh posted:I'd say steering is probably most important for you right now. Once you start getting it "right", it will unlock greater speed potential. Even though it sounds backwards, I've found that you generally need a minimum speed to drive a slalom correctly, and the faster you go, the easier it becomes. The back and forth weight shifts from faster speeds actually help turn the car (not drifting though) Will do! One of the things I've been told before is to try to be more smooth with my steering inputs - is that kind of what you mean? I'm trying to wrap my head around what to be thinking about during a run. For example, I've been telling myself to look up for most of the season, and I put a piece of tape across my windshield and tryed not to look below it. Maybe if I focus on linking my turns?
|
|
#
?
Oct 10, 2012 21:01
|
|
|
FatCow posted:Man you shift a lot. Next time do one of your runs without all the drops to 1st. I think you'd be surprised. In the 1st gear shift that goes from :37 - :50 you mat it for about 2.5s that entire time and hit some rev limiter in there. An upshift costs you about .2s. It's really surprising how often you should downshift even in a low power Miata. I'll admit though that the camera angle does make it fairly hard to see how tight the turns are. I'm not surprised I got comments on gears. That course really put me in between first and second in a number of places. So I'll shift out of reflex when really it's a toss up whether it's worthwhile or not. But in general, I agree with you. Usually I have my gears figured out early in the day. But as conditions constantly got better, (started full wet and then the sun popped out during lunch) the speeds changed in such a large way that my gear choices in the morning were way off after lunch. Which threw me out a bit. I appreciate the feedback though.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2012 00:12
|
|
|
The Locator posted:Grats on the car. What year did you get? Thanks. It's a '99, silver non-lux coupe. Out of the box with original suspension it already out handled my 328 which has pretty much the entire suspension replaced. The only thing I noticed on the car was the understeer from the staggered tire setup. It didn't want to go through the transitions/lane changes very well. Already plan on getting a 17x8.5 lightweight square setup (ARC-8 or K4R) and moving up to r-comps.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2012 01:07
|
|
|
TrueChaos posted:Will do! One of the things I've been told before is to try to be more smooth with my steering inputs - is that kind of what you mean? I'm trying to wrap my head around what to be thinking about during a run. For example, I've been telling myself to look up for most of the season, and I put a piece of tape across my windshield and tryed not to look below it. Maybe if I focus on linking my turns? Linking turns, which is part of being smooth, involves looking ahead. Not only are you looking at where you are, and where you need to be, but also where you need to be after that, and trying to form one smooth arc that links all three. This is different than "point to point" driving where you get to where you need to be next, then you decide how to continue. There is a slalom in your video at about 30 seconds. To enter, you jerked the steering wheel left. Visually what I saw was you exited that turn, then decided you needed to be over to the left to enter the slalom. Since you were already on the slalom when you decided that, you had to make a big steering input that didn't flow well from what you did before.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2012 03:33
|
|
|
Crustashio posted:Thanks. It's a '99, silver non-lux coupe. Out of the box with original suspension it already out handled my 328 which has pretty much the entire suspension replaced. I have a '95. Great handling car (although mine is set up for STU and has a lot of suspension bits). I'm running 17x8.5 Kosei's, and 255/40x17's. Be aware, that even with 3 degrees of camber, and rolled fenders, the 255's have some very tight fitment/rubbing issues, so unless you run a class where you can actually pull the fenders, those are going to be your max size rubber.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2012 07:41
|
|
|
The Locator posted:I have a '95. Great handling car (although mine is set up for STU and has a lot of suspension bits). I only planned on running 235s or 245s at most. The local competition isn't really very good class wise, with 20 to 30 cars per event. I'll be running SM but the work I'm planning to do would be less than even STU limits me too. Aside from replacing most of the bushings and cooling system, I'll probably only add a SSK, camber plates and some sort of mild suspension (GC coil over with koni yellows and 450/550 springs was recommended as a good starting point). Out of curiosity what have you done to your M3?
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2012 13:46
|
|
|
Crustashio posted:I only planned on running 235s or 245s at most. The local competition isn't really very good class wise, with 20 to 30 cars per event. I'll be running SM but the work I'm planning to do would be less than even STU limits me too. Aside from replacing most of the bushings and cooling system, I'll probably only add a SSK, camber plates and some sort of mild suspension (GC coil over with koni yellows and 450/550 springs was recommended as a good starting point). I'll try to remember to put up a list tonight, time to head to work right now. One comment though - I learned on this car that I'll never again buy a single adjustable shock. DA's are the most amazing thing ever made, allowing you to make major adjustments to how your car handles with nothing but a screwdriver (for rebound), and the little Koni tool (for compression). Spend the extra money for properly valved DA's and once you figure out how to adjust them (I'll post a short cheat guide for that tonight too), you'll never regret spending the extra money, guaranteed.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2012 15:57
|
|
|
Car stuff post: Think all the important stuff is here. Engine/Driveline: Intake, and chip. Fresh limited slip differential New cooling system (because you have to on these cars). Suspension: Koni double-adjustable coilover front struts. Koni double-adjustable rear shocks. 6" x 2.5" 500# front springs. 6" x 2.5" 550# rear springs. TC-Kline adjustable rear spring height adjusters. TC-Kline rear monoball shock mounts. 28mm adjustable front sway bar. 24mm adjustable rear sway bar. TC-Kline camber/caster plates. All bushings replaced with new shims where applicable. New motor mounts, transmission mounts, and flex disc. Alignment (camber is negative) Front camber- 3.3 degrees. Front caster - 7.7 degrees. Front toe - +0.03 degrees. Rear camber - 2.8 degrees. Rear toe - +0.36 degrees. Super abbreviated shock adjustment cheater guide: Problem/Solution Corner Entry Understeer / Soften front compression Corner Entry Oversteer / Stiffen front compression Corner Exit Understeer / Stiffen rear compression Corner Exit Oversteer / Soften rear compression
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2012 04:53
|
|
|
I need to replace the brake pads on my 350Z. What's a good brake pad for street and autocross with the possibility of an occasional track day? I'm leaning toward Hawk HPS at the moment.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2012 17:01
|
|
|
At least go HP+.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2012 19:33
|
|
|
Today was very cold although that might have helped even the playing field a bit with my lovely stock tires. Muffinpox helped me not drive horribly (and drove my car a bit) and I ended up coming second in novice class, and more importantly, I won a t-shirt. I had a dirty time 2 seconds quicker than my fastest with only one cone, but it wasn't meant to be. Muffinpox tried to take some footage of me driving but I went off course and he decided my dashboard should be the focus of his movie.
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2012 23:52
|
|
|
Phone posted:At least go HP+. Why recommend HP+? For street and autocross, they are generally dusty, noisy, and overly aggressive (pads and rotors will wear out much faster). With those two things being the focus, and track days being rare, I'd go with the HPS instead.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2012 21:58
|
|
|
Phone posted:At least go HP+. I think I could get away with HPS all the way around but i'm in a miata. Right now I have HP+ front and HPS rear. They have lasted me about 4-5 months, 1 and a half track days, and maybe 6 autocrosses and the HP+s are very close to gone (not a fair comparison because they are on the back, but the HPS have tons of life left). My brother and another friend got Carbotech XP8s and XP10s at the same time as I got my hawks, they ran all the same events and they have tons more life left in their pads. When I do it again Im probably just running cheap pads for daily/autocross and switching to Carbotechs for the track. Also the HP+s dust quite badly, I have to clean my nice wheels at least once a week. Not to mention the noise. My friends will be waiting for me outside their houses because they hear my brakes from more than a block away. In any case, on RS3s I never got them to fade on the track. Though im new to it so I could maybe do that when I get better at breaking harder. EDIT: I seem to remember that reading that the HPS actually bite a bit better at first. Been awhile since I read that article everyone loves linking for the differences between HPS and HP+s. Sadi fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Oct 14, 2012 |
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2012 22:43
|
|
|
Sadi posted:I think I could get away with HPS all the way around but i'm in a miata. Right now I have HP+ front and HPS rear. They have lasted me about 4-5 months, 1 and a half track days, and maybe 6 autocrosses and the HP+s are very close to gone. Also they dust quite badly, I have to clean my nice wheels at least once a week. Not to mention the noise. My friends will be waiting for me outside their houses because they hear my brakes from more than a block away. In any case, on RS3s I never got them to fade on the track. Though im new to it so I could maybe do that when I get better at breaking harder. Might I sway you into running a more aggressive pad in the rear, at least if you're on street tires and assuming you want an autox setup. It helps subside the low-speed lock-up that is easy to experience on an autox course. I went from HPS all around to HPS front/HP+ rear and it's helped tremendously. Not that we should be braking all too much anyways, lol. The dust and noise does suck, but I've ran HP+ in all my miatas for the past 5 years so I guess I'm use to it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2012 22:48
|
|
|
flier129 posted:Might I sway you into running a more aggressive pad in the rear, at least if you're on street tires and assuming you want an autox setup. Im running RS-3s, so yeah, street tires. Im pretty used to the noise by now too but it still is embarrassing to me when Im picking someone up or going out. Anyway Im leaning more towards tracking my car. I'll probably go balanced before I try to rear bias, just because I dont want to start spinning all the time. Sadi fucked around with this message at 00:30 on Oct 15, 2012 |
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2012 22:52
|
|
|
I've found EBC to have pretty fantastic dual purpose pads. The yellows are good enough for light track duty, and you can step up to blue when you out grow yellow. I've used both on the street without any issues whatsoever besides dust, which I think are still less than HP+. EBC yellow/blue are what HPS/HP+ should be.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2012 23:54
|
|
|
The HP+ are plenty bitey but I don't recall them being all that noisy except when cold. I never had a problem with them on the street, but I was doing a lot of autocrossing and tracking at the time so a compromise here and there never bothered me. I love the way they bit and were basically impossible to overwork in a light/low-power application.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2012 00:01
|
|
|
Brigdh posted:Why recommend HP+? For street and autocross, they are generally dusty, noisy, and overly aggressive (pads and rotors will wear out much faster). With those two things being the focus, and track days being rare, I'd go with the HPS instead. Because in anything heavier than a Miata (on street tires), HPS won't last a track day.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2012 00:19
|
|
|
If it's only an occasional track day, why not swap pads the night before?The Locator posted:Car stuff post: Awesome, thanks. I'll have to think about needing the double adjustment, the GC kit is ~800 cheaper and I have heard good things about it. Crustashio fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Oct 15, 2012 |
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2012 03:32
|
|
|
Crustashio posted:Awesome, thanks. I'll have to think about needing the double adjustment, the GC kit is ~800 cheaper and I have heard good things about it. Allow me to post a quote from Bob Tunnell (multi time national champion in BMW E36's, and owns a BMW shop in Colorado - BimmerHaus. He and his wife have combined for something stupid like 30+ national championships): "If you need to trim the budget a bit, I consider the double-adjustable rear shocks to be the single most important component - they are essential for good handling on an M3. If you decide you absolutely *can't* afford them, try to at least get the externally single-adjustable rears at <price>..." Bob knows more about setting up E36 M3's than I'll ever even pretend to know, and the above is his advice on the most important piece of suspension tuning on an E36 M3.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2012 04:10
|
|
|
Crustashio posted:If it's only an occasional track day, why not swap pads the night before? That's what I do. Personally whether it is occasional or not, it is the right way to do about it. Street pads just don't do it on the track if your car is heavier than a feather. Track pads are dusty and noisy.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2012 04:58
|
|
|
Autocross video time! My third event and the first time i managed to make gopro work and would like some criticism (positive and negative) on how i can get better at this whole malarkey. Driving technique, car upgrades, camera angles, everything is fair game. I tried to make this not a boring "hood cam" video, becuase nobody but the driver likes those. First run is a track learning slow run, I didnt tighten the mount in the second video so it wobbles a bit, stick it out the third run looks objectively cool Personal FTD is second run before the rain started.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrAsaPf23rY Good enough for second or third place in CSP on street tires in a pretty big event. The car above me and below me were on r comps, and the car above me was a rocket ship i dont think i could have competed with  His time: 0:46, my time 0:54 buddys r comp s2000 time: 0:57.
Flesh Croissant fucked around with this message at 17:39 on Oct 15, 2012 |
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2012 17:32
|
|
|
mattdizzleZ28 posted:Autocross video time! My third event and the first time i managed to make gopro work and would like some criticism (positive and negative) on how i can get better at this whole malarkey. Driving technique, car upgrades, camera angles, everything is fair game. I tried to make this not a boring "hood cam" video, becuase nobody but the driver likes those. Sorry to poo poo on your parade, but that video is not very good from a coaching standpoint. I can't see your hands, I can't see your helmet (thus where you are looking), and two of the views don't give me any sense of the course. First view: you were probably 2-3 feet off of every cone you should have been only a few inches off of on the left side, which is the easy side to get correct. Second view: I can kinda see the course, but the massively uneven angle makes it hard to comprehend without really concentrating. I would probably watch the section 50 times and really comment, but I'm not gonna go through that effort. Only thing I got from this was you were feet off of important cones on the right side as well Third view: bloody hell, this is terrible. Interesting and artsy, but utterly terrible for coaching. Also, the camera was mounted too low. If you were on the cones like you should be, then your camera would have been knocking them over. I probably could comment more, but I'm not putting in the effort unless you make it easy for me.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2012 20:05
|
|
|
Brigdh posted:Sorry to poo poo on your parade, but that video is not very good from a coaching standpoint. I can't see your hands, I can't see your helmet (thus where you are looking), and two of the views don't give me any sense of the course. Err, sorry i guess? I didnt really make the video for coaching. Autocross videos bore people to death because "Trunk mount facing forward" or "windshield mount facing forward" are dull as hell to watch, i shot it for the "interesting to friends and family" value rather than just technique. Excuses: Maybe a Lower than usual mount and massively wide angle might made the cone gap look worse than it is, i was pretty drat happy with my times compared to the rest of the field. Brigdh posted:Third view: bloody hell, this is terrible.  I was really proud of that third shot. Dont worry, I actually took a spare cone and set it below the camera, even leaving a little space for the roll of the car.I can certainly take "get closer to the cones" as advice, thanks. Flesh Croissant fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Oct 15, 2012 |
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2012 21:32
|
|
|
Last autox for the season was this Saturday and bsamu was there! I got to drive his BRZ and let him drive the S2000 so I could get some onboard of him driving to show him where to correct how he was driving, but my mount fell off. I would suggest everyone go to an autox school when starting off like he did, he was pretty drat quick and the only thing I really needed to yell at him about was not keeping his eyes up and staying tighter on the cones. There was a literal herd of S2000s there, I beat them all heh  I also let one of the instructors drive my car who usually will post FTD in an NC miata on street tires since the driving line is pretty similar. Sorry for the whiteout, it was super glarey for some reason and my fastest run is just all white. My run (On this run I taught Bsamu the most important autox trick I know, hitting the wipers): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38mta8HUB7M His run: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97d7zMmm3vI Being in the car with someone else driving and having videos is definitely the way to go for seeing where you need improvement, I managed a 73.5 clean for my fastest run and I think his second run was a 73.08 with two cones but there was a section there where in the video you can see he was entering the complex at 41s 14mph faster than me and keeping the speed up into the next braking zone just because he had a better entrance line, got tighter, and was smoother on throttle/steering modulation so he could go into the zone without braking like I did. Now crossposting from the BRZ thread: Muffinpox posted:Bsamu graciously let me drive his BRZ at autocross this Sunday so I thought I'd post some impressions, keep in mind coming from a S2000 using star specs. bsamu posted:Muffinpox tried to take some footage of me driving but I went off course and he decided my dashboard should be the focus of his movie. My camera hated you I think. I can't believe my mount fell off at the staging line when you were driving my car. mattdizzleZ28 posted:Err, sorry i guess? I didnt really make the video for coaching. Autocross videos bore people to death because "Trunk mount facing forward" or "windshield mount facing forward" are dull as hell to watch, i shot it for the "interesting to friends and family" value rather than just technique. Excuses: Maybe a Lower than usual mount and massively wide angle might made the cone gap look worse than it is, i was pretty drat happy with my times compared to the rest of the field. A good shot is a camera mounted on the farthest right part of the trunk lid and then elevated like 3 feet so it looks downward towards the hood. You can see cones and it's visually interesting for people to watch. Also get closer to the cones. Muffinpox fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Oct 15, 2012 |
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2012 22:14
|
|
|
One feature I haven't used yet in the BRZ is the configurable shift light and buzzer. At my next autocross I'll set it up to start whining at 7200 rpm or something to give me a bit more of heads up before brutal fuel cut.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2012 22:34
|
|
|
Muffinpox posted:My run (On this run I taught Bsamu the most important autox trick I know, hitting the wipers): I'm good at this trick too. Sideways into the stop box with the wipers on? Yeah... 
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2012 22:54
|
|
|
It's more fun in an NA Miata when you hit the high flashers and the headlights pop up.
|
|
#
?
Oct 15, 2012 23:08
|
|
|
I got killed in the rain on the weekend. I can't seem to control the rear-end when coming out of the corner.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2012 00:27
|
|
|
mattdizzleZ28 posted:
I also like videos that include at least some direct views of the driver - like mounted on the passenger window or the far corner of the windscreen on the inside, pointing at the driver so both hands and the face are always visible - steering wheel, into the open-face helmet, gear shift (and windshield wiper and signal light control stalks, too, for the fun little mistakes).
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2012 00:57
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 08:55 |
|
|
Muffinpox posted:S2000 fun. Your car seems quite a bit oversteer-y. Isn't it destracting? There were moments where the slide was definitely not helping either of you.
|
|
#
?
Oct 16, 2012 22:41
|
|