Ask General Programming Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread

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Zhentar: Sep 28, 2003; Brilliant Master Genius

Is there a name for this coding style?

C# code:

foreach
(
    var v
    in
    someCollection
)

I need a label at which to express my hatred.

# ? Oct 16, 2012 18:09

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# ? May 29, 2024 21:17

nielsm: Jun 1, 2009

Zhentar posted:

Is there a name for this coding style?
C# code:
foreach
(
    var v
    in
    someCollection
)
I need a label at which to express my hatred.

Pocket Notepad Breaking.
(Lines broken as to fit it on a pocket-sized note pad. Just invented the name.)

# ? Oct 16, 2012 18:25

mik: Oct 16, 2003; oh

I've been given a C++ console application that receives data from an external source (across the internet) at random intervals and just writes it out to the console. I want to be able to capture the output and parse it on my own terms.

I was planning on just capturing the cout with a .net program that wraps around it, but I was given this suggestion:

"...use the console application to handle the C++ side of things and demarshal the message into text, then use a netcat service to re-broadcast to your API"

Can someone parse this into english for me? How do I 'demarshal' console output? Or is this just code for what I was planning on doing anyway? What about the netcat part?

# ? Oct 16, 2012 20:01

peepsalot: Apr 24, 2007; ��PEEP THIS...
��BITCH!

Zhentar posted:

Is there a name for this coding style?

brain-damaged

# ? Oct 16, 2012 21:24

shrughes: Oct 11, 2008; (call/cc call/cc)

nielsm posted:

Pocket Notepad Breaking.
(Lines broken as to fit it on a pocket-sized note pad. Just invented the name.)

That would be more like

code:

foreach ( var v in some-
                Collection)

# ? Oct 16, 2012 23:39

Jabor: Jul 16, 2010; #1 Loser at SpaceChem

shrughes posted:

That would be more like
code:
foreach ( var v in some-
                Collection)

I would think it's more like:

foreach ( var v in so_{meCo_{llect_ion)}}

# ? Oct 17, 2012 02:13

Tony Jabroni: May 27, 2008

Here's a question because I don't know where to start:

I want to make a device you can plug into a computer's USB or serial port. On the other end is a many-pin connector and any number of adapters to fit this connector. I want to be able to plug different connectors into the device (RJ-45, molex, DB-9 etc) and send a signal on one pin and have the computer display what pin it is. It seems just as do-able for the computer to send a signal through a pin and allow my meter or attached probe to pick it up.

I was thinking of trying to throw something together purely hardware controlled but my knowledge of that ends past basic resistors. I could still make a standalone box to do this but I don't even know what kind of parts to cobble together.

I saw the other thread with the Embedded Programming, and that looks like it could be a good starting point, but I'd want somebody with some knowledge to say that's the route to go before I buy a board.

If you had to make something like this (it's for testing cable harnesses) how would you go about it? I know nothing on any platform so it's all an even playing field for me :downs:

# ? Oct 17, 2012 02:51

omeg: Sep 3, 2012

I've made an IR transceiver once, connected to the serial port. It was a very rough design, just a few resistors/transistors. Just make sure not to fry the port/other things, serial port has pretty high voltages compared to the normal TTL levels. Better/easier would be some USB on-chip controller, you can get those very cheap and they are easy to program (also good luck finding serial ports on most modern motherboards). My serial device needed a dedicated driver because what I interfaced with used pretty high frequency PCM modulation with low error tolerance, and standard Windows API wasn't good enough to provide necessary timings.

TLDR: it's very doable, my advice would be to read up on USB protocol and concentrate on that route.

omeg fucked around with this message at 10:16 on Oct 17, 2012

# ? Oct 17, 2012 10:14

Jenkl: Aug 5, 2008; This post needs at least three times more shit!

Hello! Quick question about machine epsilon, in FORTRAN in particular.
Basically I just don't get why, given the definition of machine epsilon, I'm finding a yet smaller number that satisfies the definition. There is either a) an error in this simple code that's escaping me or b) something about machine epsilon relative to FORTRAN I'm not getting.
I'm using gfortran to compile and aquamacs to write if that's relevant.

code:

PROGRAM MAIN
  IMPLICIT NONE
  REAL(8) :: a,b,c,e

  e = EPSILON(e) !Fortran's machine epsilon

  a = e/2.0d0 !Make it smaller
  b = 10.0d-18 !Add a small value
  c = a+b !my candidate epsilon

  PRINT *, "c < e:", c < e !Check that it's smaller, to make sure ;)
  PRINT *, "c + 1.0d0 > 1.0d0: ", (c+1.0d0 > 1.0d0)
END PROGRAM MAIN

On my end I get True for both implying that my c is in fact smaller than EPSILON(e) and still yields values larger than 1 when added to 1.

Jenkl fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Oct 18, 2012

# ? Oct 17, 2012 19:13

Zhentar: Sep 28, 2003; Brilliant Master Genius

It might help if the first condition checked if c was smaller than e, rather than comparing an undeclared variable to e.

# ? Oct 17, 2012 22:28

Jenkl: Aug 5, 2008; This post needs at least three times more shit!

Zhentar posted:

It might help if the first condition checked if c was smaller than e, rather than comparing an undeclared variable to e.

Ah! Crap, sorry I actually had more stuff for myself before I stripped it down for Goon consumption, forgot to change that. I'll edit that now. It doesn't change the output or my question.

# ? Oct 18, 2012 20:28

oRenj9: Aug 3, 2004; Who loves oRenj soda?!?; College Slice

I'm trying to get acclaimed with shared memory programming, so I wrote this very simple program. It doesn't work but I can't explain why.

code:

#include <stdio.h>
#include <sys/ipc.h>
#include <sys/shm.h>
#include <sys/types.h>

int main() {
	key_t key = getuid();
	shmid_ds info;
	char* shm_ptr;
	char* tmp_ptr;
	
	//shmctl(key, IPC_STAT, &info);
	
	//printf("Some info:\nCreated by: %i\n# of opens: %i\n", info.shm_cpid,
	//	info.shm_nattch);
	
	return 0;
}

pre:

gcc -ggdb -L./ -Werror main.c -o p2 
main.c: In function �main�:
main.c:8: error: �shmid_ds� undeclared (first use in this function)
main.c:8: error: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once
main.c:8: error: for each function it appears in.)
main.c:8: error: expected �;� before �info�
make: *** [all] Error 1

shmid_ds is should be declared already, it is in <bits/shm.h> which is imported from <sys/shm.h>. Any ideas?

Edit: I fixed this, I needed to put struct in front of shmid_ds.

oRenj9 fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Oct 18, 2012

# ? Oct 18, 2012 21:07

Henrik Zetterberg: Dec 7, 2007

I'm having a problem re-formatting some text with a VIM script.

Here's a sample of the input text:

code:

Pullups
0x15, 0x10, 0x6, 0x6 
Barbell Bent Over Row
95x12, 100x12, 105x12, 110x10 
EZ-Bar Curl
60x12, 60x12, 60x10 
Wide-Grip Lat Pulldown
90x15, 100x12, 110x10

What I want to do, is insert [ b ] at the beginning of each line with an exercise name, then a [ /b ] at the end of that line. I do not want the bold tags going in for the lines with Weight x Reps.

I'm searching by :%s/^[a-zA-Z], but that's going to end up replacing the first character of the name. The same thing for the [ /b ] at the end if I use :%s/[a-zA-Z]$/

I'm stumped at how to preserve that first and last character of the name. I'm probably not thinking of something stupid easy.

# ? Oct 18, 2012 23:11

MacGowans Teeth: Aug 13, 2003

Henrik Zetterberg posted:

I'm having a problem re-formatting some text with a VIM script.

Here's a sample of the input text:
code:
Pullups
0x15, 0x10, 0x6, 0x6 
Barbell Bent Over Row
95x12, 100x12, 105x12, 110x10 
EZ-Bar Curl
60x12, 60x12, 60x10 
Wide-Grip Lat Pulldown
90x15, 100x12, 110x10 
What I want to do, is insert [ b ] at the beginning of each line with an exercise name, then a [ /b ] at the end of that line. I do not want the bold tags going in for the lines with Weight x Reps.

I'm searching by :%s/^[a-zA-Z], but that's going to end up replacing the first character of the name. The same thing for the [ /b ] at the end if I use :%s/[a-zA-Z]$/

I'm stumped at how to preserve that first and last character of the name. I'm probably not thinking of something stupid easy.

Doesn't vim support capture groups? Like you could put parentheses (or escaped parentheses? Vim's regex stuff is weird) around the first part and then replace with \1 plus your markup.

Edit: There is almost certainly a better way to do this, but this works:

%s/$^[A-Za-z]$/\[b\]\1/g

MacGowans Teeth fucked around with this message at 01:58 on Oct 19, 2012

# ? Oct 19, 2012 01:48

Civil Twilight: Apr 2, 2011

Try this:

:%s/^$\D.*$$/[b]\1[\/b]/

Should match any line that doesn't start with a digit, group the text of that line, and replace it with the group surrounded by the tags. I just tried it with your input and it looked good, but I suck at regexes so there are probably problems I didn't think of.

# ? Oct 19, 2012 01:49

Titan Coeus: Jul 30, 2007; check out my horn

Civil Twilight posted:

Try this:

:%s/^$\D.*$$/[b]\1[\/b]/

Should match any line that doesn't start with a digit, group the text of that line, and replace it with the group surrounded by the tags. I just tried it with your input and it looked good, but I suck at regexes so there are probably problems I didn't think of.

Your regex will work fine. Fun tip for situations where part of the search or replace text contains a '/' though:

code:

:%s/^\(\D.*\)$/[b]\1[\/b]/

is the same as

code:

:%s@^\(\D.*\)$@[b]\1[/b]@

That is, you can specify whatever separator you want. It's really nice when doing file path matching so you don't end up with \/path\/to\/thing\/ all over the place.

# ? Oct 19, 2012 14:12

O_Kafetzis: Feb 15, 2010; by Nyc_Tattoo

This maybe the wrong thread for this and if so let me know.

I need to design an XML serialization spec and the problem is that I know very little about XML. Does anyone recommend a book on XML that will get me running and talks about how to design an XML spec?

# ? Oct 19, 2012 15:14

MrMoo: Sep 14, 2000

One could say you are suitably qualified, no one else knows how to do it well either :shobon:

# ? Oct 19, 2012 17:14

Henrik Zetterberg: Dec 7, 2007

Those VIM searches worked perfectly. I had never used the parenthesis in a search before, so this is new territory for me.

Thanks dudes!

# ? Oct 19, 2012 17:26

pseudorandom name: May 6, 2007

O_Kafetzis posted:

This maybe the wrong thread for this and if so let me know.

I need to design an XML serialization spec and the problem is that I know very little about XML. Does anyone recommend a book on XML that will get me running and talks about how to design an XML spec?

XML isn't designed for object serialization and you shouldn't abuse it for that purpose.

# ? Oct 19, 2012 18:14

Janitor Prime: Jan 22, 2004; PC LOAD LETTER

What da fuck does that mean; Fun Shoe

SOAP

# ? Oct 19, 2012 18:17

O_Kafetzis: Feb 15, 2010; by Nyc_Tattoo

pseudorandom name posted:

XML isn't designed for object serialization and you shouldn't abuse it for that purpose.

Wait so what is XML good for besides using all of the RAM parsing it? On a more serious note, why is XML not good for object serialization?

Hard NOP Life posted:

SOAP

To my knowledge SOAP is more of a communication protocol and that means I would still need to design a spec for the objects.

# ? Oct 19, 2012 18:53

Blotto Skorzany: Nov 7, 2008; He's a PSoC, loose and runnin'
came the whisper from each lip
And he's here to do some business with
the bad ADC on his chip
bad ADC on his chiiiiip

O_Kafetzis posted:

Wait so what is XML good for besides using all of the RAM parsing it? On a more serious note, why is XML not good for object serialization?

To my knowledge SOAP is more of a communication protocol and that means I would still need to design a spec for the objects.

XML is a document markup language. It is good for marking up documents. For instance, one of the editions of the Encyclopedia Brittanica was marked up with SGML, a predecessor* to XML. If you're not marking up documents, XML is probably a poor choice - the operation you're performing is "shoehorning" in the technical parlance.

A quick test for whether XML is a good choice for whatever you're trying to do is to think whether the final product will look like this:

code:

<foo>
	Aliquam a nisi libero, ut sollicitudin nibh. Maecenas eu eros eget lectus
	venenatis eleifend eu facilisis orci. Proin at sapien mauris. Nullam et 	elit
 	dui. Sed posuere ligula at arcu molestie auctor. Integer elementum purus ut
 	neque pharetra malesuada. Maecenas luctus euismod enim, posuere lobortis leo
 	pretium nec. Nunc vulputate gravida aliquam. Maecenas sem ligula, ullamcorper
 	quis malesuada venenatis, posuere quis enim. Nullam dictum massa sit amet odio
 	scelerisque ac vestibulum nunc eleifend.
</foo>
<bar> Wovon mann nicht sprechen kann, darueber muss mann schweigen. </bar>
<baz fred="quux">

	Bacon ipsum dolor sit amet commodo culpa sunt, quis ham hock shankle esse et
 	ground round anim. Occaecat aliquip excepteur sirloin dolor incididunt cillum
 	et leberkas hamburger consequat laboris. Beef ribs chuck commodo magna nostrud
 	enim shank. In pastrami nisi, sunt dolore drumstick voluptate pork chop magna
 	velit pork belly minim cupidatat reprehenderit. Ball tip t-bone ham hock 
	consectetur, short loin voluptate chicken pork pariatur mollit. In magna 
	deserunt chuck ex aute excepteur ea jerky salami. Reprehenderit do turkey 
	aliqua, shoulder t-bone labore corned beef pork chop.
</baz>

or like this:

code:

</CyGuid_ebc4f06d-207f-49c2-a540-72acf4adabc0>
 <CyGuid_ebc4f06d-207f-49c2-a540-72acf4adabc0 type_name="CyDesigner.Common.ProjMgmt.Model.CyPrjMgmtFolder" version="2">
 <CyGuid_2f73275c-45bf-46ba-b3b1-00a2fe0c8dd8 type_name="CyDesigner.Common.ProjMgmt.Model.CyPrjMgmtBaseContainer" version="1">
 <CyGuid_31768f72-0253-412b-af77-e7dba74d1330 type_name="CyDesigner.Common.ProjMgmt.Model.CyPrjMgmtItem" version="2" name="Temp_A" persistent="">
-<Hidden v="True" />
+<Hidden v="False" />
 </CyGuid_31768f72-0253-412b-af77-e7dba74d1330>
 <CyGuid_0820c2e7-528d-4137-9a08-97257b946089 type_name="CyDesigner.Common.ProjMgmt.Model.CyPrjMgmtItemList" version="2">
 <dependencies>
 <CyGuid_405e30c3-81d4-4133-98d6-c3ecf21fec0d type_name="CyDesigner.Common.ProjMgmt.Model.CyPrjMgmtFileGenerated" version="1">
 <CyGuid_8b8ab257-35d3-4473-b57b-36315200b38b type_name="CyDesigner.Common.ProjMgmt.Model.CyPrjMgmtFile" version="3" xml_contents_version="1">
 <CyGuid_31768f72-0253-412b-af77-e7dba74d1330 type_name="CyDesigner.Common.ProjMgmt.Model.CyPrjMgmtItem" version="2" name="Temp_A_aliases.h" persistent=".\Generated_Source\PSoC5\Temp_A_aliases.h">
-<Hidden v="True" />
+<Hidden v="False" />
 </CyGuid_31768f72-0253-412b-af77-e7dba74d1330>
 <build_action v="NONE" />
 <PropertyDeltas />
 </CyGuid_8b8ab257-35d3-4473-b57b-36315200b38b>
 </CyGuid_405e30c3-81d4-4133-98d6-c3ecf21fec0d>
 <CyGuid_405e30c3-81d4-4133-98d6-c3ecf21fec0d type_name="CyDesigner.Common.ProjMgmt.Model.CyPrjMgmtFileGenerated" version="1">
 <CyGuid_8b8ab257-35d3-4473-b57b-36315200b38b type_name="CyDesigner.Common.ProjMgmt.Model.CyPrjMgmtFile" version="3" xml_contents_version="1">
 <CyGuid_31768f72-0253-412b-af77-e7dba74d1330 type_name="CyDesigner.Common.ProjMgmt.Model.CyPrjMgmtItem" version="2" name="Temp_A.c" persistent=".\Generated_Source\PSoC5\Temp_A.c">
-<Hidden v="True" />
+<Hidden v="False" />
 </CyGuid_31768f72-0253-412b-af77-e7dba74d1330>
 <build_action v="ARM_C_FILE" />
 <PropertyDeltas />
 </CyGuid_8b8ab257-35d3-4473-b57b-36315200b38b>
 </CyGuid_405e30c3-81d4-4133-98d6-c3ecf21fec0d>
 <CyGuid_405e30c3-81d4-4133-98d6-c3ecf21fec0d type_name="CyDesigner.Common.ProjMgmt.Model.CyPrjMgmtFileGenerated" version="1">
 <CyGuid_8b8ab257-35d3-4473-b57b-36315200b38b type_name="CyDesigner.Common.ProjMgmt.Model.CyPrjMgmtFile" version="3" xml_contents_version="1">
 <CyGuid_31768f72-0253-412b-af77-e7dba74d1330 type_name="CyDesigner.Common.ProjMgmt.Model.CyPrjMgmtItem" version="2" name="Temp_A.h" persistent=".\Generated_Source\PSoC5\Temp_A.h">
-<Hidden v="True" />
+<Hidden v="False" />
 </CyGuid_31768f72-0253-412b-af77-e7dba74d1330>
 <build_action v="NONE" />
 <PropertyDeltas />
 </CyGuid_8b8ab257-35d3-4473-b57b-36315200b38b>
 </CyGuid_405e30c3-81d4-4133-98d6-c3ecf21fec0d>

If it looks like the former, you're probably on the right track! If it looks like the latter, *thwacks you on the nose with a rolled up newspaper* NO! BAD PROGRAMMER!

# ? Oct 19, 2012 19:10

Janitor Prime: Jan 22, 2004; PC LOAD LETTER

What da fuck does that mean; Fun Shoe

O_Kafetzis posted:

To my knowledge SOAP is more of a communication protocol and that means I would still need to design a spec for the objects.

It was kind of a joke post, but it has the tools already made for you to define your objects and from them generate a spec that can be consumed by your users. That's the whole premise of using the web services stack.

Another alternative for serializing objects is Google's Protocol Buffers. I use these extensively in my projects since the overhead is small and it produces objects usable in multiple languages and platforms, unlike SOAP which doesn't have native support in mobile platforms.

# ? Oct 19, 2012 20:13

pseudorandom name: May 6, 2007

And if you need your serialization to be text, JSON.

# ? Oct 19, 2012 20:24

O_Kafetzis: Feb 15, 2010; by Nyc_Tattoo

Otto Skorzeny posted:

If it looks like the former, you're probably on the right track! If it looks like the latter, *thwacks you on the nose with a rolled up newspaper* NO! BAD PROGRAMMER!

The serialization would probably look more like the latter. I only started with XML because that is what my boss is suggesting for me to use. Which means I will have to explain why not XML if I am going to push for that route.

I don't care what format we use as long as it is human readable.

Thank you pseudorandom name and Hard NOP Life, I will look into JSON and Google's Protocol Buffers.

# ? Oct 19, 2012 20:54

ToxicFrog: Apr 26, 2008

O_Kafetzis posted:

The serialization would probably look more like the latter. I only started with XML because that is what my boss is suggesting for me to use. Which means I will have to explain why not XML if I am going to push for that route.

The whole point of XML is to be an extensible markup language, for annotating text - not a serialization format for arbitrary data. A lot of people try to use it as one, but that doesn't make it a good idea, and it's debatable whether the results qualify as "human readable". About the only thing it has going for it as a serialization format is that XML Schemas make it easy* to validate the well-formedness of a message.

Protobufs are a binary serialization library; they have a human-readable operating mode but it's meant for debugging, not deployment. If your output needs to be human-readable, JSON is probably what you should look at first.

* for XML, anyways

# ? Oct 19, 2012 21:36

baquerd: Jul 2, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

O_Kafetzis posted:

The serialization would probably look more like the latter. I only started with XML because that is what my boss is suggesting for me to use. Which means I will have to explain why not XML if I am going to push for that route.

I don't care what format we use as long as it is human readable.

Thank you pseudorandom name and Hard NOP Life, I will look into JSON and Google's Protocol Buffers.

Are you in Java? GSON makes this easy.

# ? Oct 19, 2012 22:10

nielsm: Jun 1, 2009

The .NET Framework 4 (and maybe earlier) has native JSON serialization, you can maybe take a look at the kind of output that produces. I've used it once and it looked quite reasonable. (It's certainly much more compact than the equivalent XML.)

# ? Oct 19, 2012 22:11

O_Kafetzis: Feb 15, 2010; by Nyc_Tattoo

baquerd posted:

Are you in Java? GSON makes this easy.

I am in C++ but other teams that would use this are using different langauges and different platforms.

My company is very careful about licenses. So a new library would have to go through legal, which may mean why my boss is talking about XML, as we already have a library cleared for that.

In any case, I will keep looking at those 2 soluations. As I do not know yet if it always being human readable is a hard requirement.

Please exuse any misspellings as I am typing this on phone.

# ? Oct 19, 2012 23:01

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

O_Kafetzis posted:

I need to design an XML serialization spec and the problem is that I know very little about XML. Does anyone recommend a book on XML that will get me running and talks about how to design an XML spec?

If your heart is set on XML, I would invest some time learning how to make an XML schema. You may also want to find a shoulder to cry on too.

MrMoo posted:

One could say you are suitably qualified, no one else knows how to do it well either

Yep.

O_Kafetzis posted:

Wait so what is XML good for besides using all of the RAM parsing it? On a more serious note, why is XML not good for object serialization?

The promised advantages of xml are namespaces, schemas and the ability to embed one document inside another - mathml, svg, etc.

quote:

To my knowledge SOAP is more of a communication protocol and that means I would still need to design a spec for the objects.

SOAP is a way to make it easy to gently caress over people writing clients for your services. Roughly speaking:

SOAP - Make it easy to expose a list of classes into a wsdl file and leave the mess to the client writer. If it doesn't work straight off, you're left with a mess of encapsulation.
JSON over POST - Make it easy to write a client, although somewhat time consuming, relatively easy to debug.
JSON with links - Although not as simple to write a client, it makes it easier to change things without breaking clients.

I've only heard one success story with SOAP - where the consumer and provider used the same platform, toolset, worked in the same company, and in the same office. From my limited experience of trying to interface with SOAP, the wsdls are rarely for the service offered, rarely work outside the tool that generated it,
and it is often easier to take an example XML dump and write code to manually submit the request.

As for XML serialization within SOAP, i've seen more examples of smuggling - htmlentities encoding of XML (so it doesn't have to pass any schema), and JSON strings inside SOAP envelopes.

Hard NOP Life posted:

Another alternative for serializing objects is Google's Protocol Buffers. I use these extensively in my projects since the overhead is small and it produces objects usable in multiple languages and platforms, unlike SOAP which doesn't have native support in mobile platforms.

I'd recommend protobufs over JSON or XML for object serialization. It seems to work.

JSON is ok for object serialization when you only need to serialize the objects JSON supports. You can sorta shoehorn other objects inside, but it is clunky, messy and annoying to detangle at the client side.

O_Kafetzis posted:

In any case, I will keep looking at those 2 soluations. As I do not know yet if it always being human readable is a hard requirement.

It depends what you're serializing. Just because it is in XML or JSON doesn't make it human readable, as Otto's example demonstrates.

# ? Oct 20, 2012 16:59

Carthag Tuek: Oct 15, 2005; Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
sl�gt skal f�lge sl�gters gang

I implemented a SOAP client once. Wouldn't recommend, it was basically reverse engineering (I ended up packet snitffing a working client and re-creating what it did in my own client).

# ? Oct 20, 2012 21:15

Plorkyeran: Mar 22, 2007; To Escape The Shackles Of The Old Forums, We Must Reject The Tribal Negativity He Endorsed

WCF makes SOAP relatively easy if you view the fact that it uses SOAP as an implementation detail that you never try to take advantage of in any way.

# ? Oct 21, 2012 00:37

epswing: Nov 4, 2003; Soiled Meat

Indeed. I've been using WCF for about a year, and have never had to look at XML. This makes me happy.

# ? Oct 21, 2012 01:08

luxxx: Oct 20, 2012

What do you guys think about Lisp dialects?

I've been learning Common Lisp recently (SBCL) and I like Scheme too but it just seems less powerful and "complete." Not to mention it lacks in the speed department quite a bit.

I also think that Paul Graham is on to something with Arc, axiomatic development is a good idea, it's just taking way too long to actually get it developed.

# ? Oct 21, 2012 04:12

ToxicFrog: Apr 26, 2008

luxxx posted:

What do you guys think about Lisp dialects?

I've been learning Common Lisp recently (SBCL) and I like Scheme too but it just seems less powerful and "complete." Not to mention it lacks in the speed department quite a bit.

I love Lisp on paper, but in practice the only variant that I've ever actually gotten things done with is Clojure. Which I do recommend _{if you have several gigabytes of free memory for the dev tools}.

# ? Oct 21, 2012 05:01

luxxx: Oct 20, 2012

ToxicFrog posted:

I love Lisp on paper, but in practice the only variant that I've ever actually gotten things done with is Clojure. Which I do recommend _{if you have several gigabytes of free memory for the dev tools}.

I've always hated the JVM. I really don't like working with Java methods, and I like the ideas that Clojure is putting into action, but using macros alongside long Java methods kinda hurts me. Lisp and Java are two completely different paradigms.

I mean, Chris Granger (guy who is making Light Table IDE) has said that it's mostly just a product of Clojure's greatness, but I'm just not willing to bend.

Not to mention, there's the problem of the actual code. It's hard to maintain Lisp code. That's the biggest thing that's held back Lisp and kept it from transcending from academia to industry. I love writing Lisp, it makes me feel right, but sometimes I'll have to go back and make it do something different, and I'll realize that I have no idea what it's doing. Having to learn my own code is counter productive.

I don't know. Lisp needs *something*, but I just don't know.

Paul Graham needs to hurry the hell up with Arc.

# ? Oct 21, 2012 05:43

Neslepaks: Sep 3, 2003

If you write unmaintainable code I don't think you can blame Lisp.

Common Lisp is perfectly usable in the real world, I work for a company that develops in it almost exclusively. We don't find our code harder to maintain because it's Lisp, but of course some discipline is required -- if you build new languages/interfaces/protocols, you probably should document them.

# ? Oct 21, 2012 11:15

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

luxxx posted:

Not to mention, there's the problem of the actual code. It's hard to maintain Lisp code. That's the biggest thing that's held back Lisp and kept it from transcending from academia to industry.

Lisp dialects have been used in industry many times. Lisps seeming lack of popularity is often down to more social factors.

quote:

I don't know. Lisp needs *something*, but I just don't know.

Syntax would be a start. Also enough of a language so people stop having to implement their own inside of it.

quote:

Paul Graham needs to hurry the hell up with Arc.

Yeah, I do need more laughs about a 100 year language that went out of its way to strip out unicode support.

# ? Oct 21, 2012 11:39

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# ? May 29, 2024 21:17

maskenfreiheit: Dec 30, 2004

maskenfreiheit fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Apr 28, 2019

# ? Oct 21, 2012 16:12

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