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rotor posted:ugh this av again? do you know why or who is even doing it? seems weird.
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Oct 21, 2012 07:25
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nope
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Oct 21, 2012 07:35
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y'all i've been lazy lately. i need to code more outside of work, what should i pick up?
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Oct 21, 2012 08:13
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threefive posted:y'all i've been lazy lately. i need to code more outside of work, what should i pick up? a keyboard
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Oct 21, 2012 08:21
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how!! is making a webframework http://www.slideshare.net/priestc/visualizing-mvc-and-an-introduction-to-giotto
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Oct 21, 2012 12:10
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my input middleware is blue, not purple, is that a bad thing?
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Oct 21, 2012 15:05
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getting rid of controllers seems to be primarily an excercise in semantics versus actually changing anything
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Oct 21, 2012 15:10
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threefive posted:y'all i've been lazy lately. i need to code more outside of work, what should i pick up? go to coursera or edx or whatever and pick something you haven't done before
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Oct 21, 2012 16:21
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tef posted:how!! is making a webframework he's like the code equivalent of jcaesar or some other hack who wants to engage in the high level bullshitting without doing time in the trenches
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Oct 21, 2012 16:27
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0xB16B00B5 posted:getting rid of controllers seems to be primarily an excercise in semantics versus actually changing anything what really needs to happen is getting rid of the model by replacing it with an excel file also put the cell->ui component id-mapping in the excel too, also any input validation/output formatting, that should get rid of most of the controller too
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Oct 21, 2012 16:47
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i keep feeling like i'm at this crossroads been writing poo poo for work and for home in python but every program i write that gets to about 5k lines starts getting really unmaintainable and difficult to refactor and add new functionality. mostly i get told to 'write more tests' which to me doesn't really feel like the right answer. like, let me write more code to try and maintain the code i have so sometimes i feel like it's not taking advantage of language features or paradigms properly but i'm not just gonna learn something like concurrency or mapreduce or something to shoehorn it into what i'm learning i guess the main issue is i don't really have a concrete problem to solve so no one can point me at a solution. but i do have a problem, it's "all my code is poo poo and difficult to maintain and it never really feels like i can trust it to do what i want it to do" i'm looking at this http://www.cs.brown.edu/courses/cs173/2012/OnLine/ to try and maybe pick up some fundamentals that i missed when i was being a lazy shithead in school but like -- i can never really see how this maps into the real world. like, okay, here's how you make a calculator in some fake language in drracket. i'd much prefer some kind of heurestic as to the steps you should take when implementing some feature in a system. how you should define the data, thinking about where the data needs to go, presentation in a UI/webapp i see the cool poo poo people do with, like, graphics programming. fractals and logo and poo poo. but that feels like playing around, like none of the programs i'll ever write at my job will require a fractal as the final output i'm a bad coder
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Oct 21, 2012 20:07
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WHOIS John Galt posted:i keep feeling like i'm at this crossroads so you know your code sucks, but do you know why it sucks? just solve the problems that you have with your own code one by one. annoying to refactor, maybe things are too tightly coupled? idk though just makin poo poo up over here
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Oct 21, 2012 20:14
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WHOIS John Galt posted:been writing poo poo for work and for home in python but every program i write that gets to about 5k lines starts getting really unmaintainable and difficult to refactor and add new functionality. mostly i get told to 'write more tests' which to me doesn't really feel like the right answer. like, let me write more code to try and maintain the code i have when you say "unmaintainable" is that "i can't figure out what to change because i've forgotten how this thing works" or "i can make the changes but then something else breaks" because tests only help in the second case
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Oct 21, 2012 20:23
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qntm posted:when you say "unmaintainable" is that "i can't figure out what to change because i've forgotten how this thing works" or "i can make the changes but then something else breaks" because tests only help in the second case a little bit of both. like i can no longer reason about the code because of its complexity, and i can make changes and the tests still pass, but either i don't cover enough test cases (which involves writing more code which again seems counterintuitive) or like now a whole bunch of functions have to propagate changes through the call stack to accommodate the change, and one little change ends up taking weeks to rewrite a whole bunch of code to deal with a new implementation. like i know my points of separation are incorrect, and everything's all tightly coupled, but in trying to solve those problems i flail around like an idiot. there's like, no rigor involved. my job mostly feels like guessing and hoping
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Oct 21, 2012 20:31
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tef posted:This is exactly why I hate programmers tef shot a man in CoC, just to watch him die()
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Oct 21, 2012 21:14
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tef posted:This is exactly why I hate programmers i wish we still used punch cards
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Oct 21, 2012 21:36
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WHOIS John Galt posted:i keep feeling like i'm at this crossroads I hate tests. as a gardener would you rather 1) wrap more and more nets around trees and hedges or 2) cut off the extra bits and use some almost-invisible zip ties to guide the growth of the remaining braches and leaves? * *I have no idea what being a gardener actually entails WHOIS John Galt posted:so sometimes i feel like it's not taking advantage of language features or paradigms properly but i'm not just gonna learn something like concurrency or mapreduce or something to shoehorn it into what i'm learning don't learn those so you can shoehorn them into your code, learn them so you know when to not use them in your code WHOIS John Galt posted:i guess the main issue is i don't really have a concrete problem to solve so no one can point me at a solution. but i do have a problem, it's "all my code is poo poo and difficult to maintain and it never really feels like i can trust it to do what i want it to do" i'm not going to tell you to rewrite your code in java instead i'm telling you to set a challenge to yourself which goes something like this: "people say java code is very modular and easily malleable when it doesn't fall into the AbstractFactoryFactory trap; assuming that's true, what would my code look like if it was written in java and what would that "extra sauce" be that makes it more maintainable/clear/understandable than what I have written?" WHOIS John Galt posted:i'm a bad coder welcome to the club, please have a seat over there now get better
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Oct 21, 2012 21:44
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Win8 Hetro Experie posted:I hate tests. as a gardener would you rather pruning, which is what i feel is necessary Win8 Hetro Experie posted:
i definitely feel that having the compiler proofread work gets super important as the complexity of a program grows. i did this thought experiment with golang substituted for java and it was like (remember this is a webapp): - instead of having to guess what a given function's return value would be i'll have explicitly defined, self documenting structs that i can reason about - instead of passing around shittons of dictionaries with arbitrary keys to the API or the templater, again i'll have explicitly defined structs. i guess this and the previous bullet can be combined. i just have a lot of trouble justifying creating some new object type as a return value when 'being pythonic' seems to mean 'just return a dict and let the caller sort it out' (i'm a bad python programmer too) - instead of having templates with lots of convoluted logic i'd be limited to what the golang html templating allows me to do - instead of having huge templates i can use golang's template trees to render explicit sections of a page, which makes refreshing bits and pieces of the page with ajax a shitton easier because i won't be interpolating the data into HTML on the javascript side so yeah i've sort of done those kinds of thought experiments but i'm also not in a position with this project to tear anything down. it's in production, it's used every day, and it just keeps getting more and more complex.
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Oct 21, 2012 22:24
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a lot of it's about using the right tool for the right job, a lot of it's about solving the right problem at the right level, but i feel like i have to relearn this poo poo every time i start out on a project, even if it's similar to one i've done before.
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Oct 21, 2012 22:28
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JawnV6 posted:i wish we still used punch cards I liked teletypes, seeing the screen typed out every time really made you think about what you were doing.
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Oct 21, 2012 22:40
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i miss the days when you wrote algorithms down on a piece of paper and got a team of victorian men to carry them out. the top hats really made you think about what you were doing
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Oct 21, 2012 22:54
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rotor posted:I liked teletypes, seeing the screen typed out every time really made you think about what you were doing. suffering is character building  i really dont think your combination of rose tinted nostalgia and thinly veiled hatred for learners makes for a constructive course on learning. i learned despite these things, not because of them. please dont confuse your misanthropy for insight into education youre basically advocating abuse. i hope no-one ever has to suffer under you as a teacher, and that you lose your hands in a industrial accident, so that you never inflict your ignorance upon the keyboard again
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Oct 21, 2012 23:01
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you see, kids today learn to cycle easy. they have training wheels, safety helmets. in my day they learned to cycle on penny-farthings, and thats the best way to learn to cycle. i havent moved on since 1890, so why should i let them take advantage of progress - i certainly havent people should learn from my mistakes by repeating them exactly, because my mistakes have been refined and polished over the years who wants to learn javascript? making simple things that they can share easily and show to others? they should be learning to program in my home-brew hello world environment. what do you mean you want to do something fun? i never got to do that. i spent the first five years writing guessing games i hope you drown in your own bile
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Oct 21, 2012 23:01
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man learning to write mips assembly was fun but… my daily programming is less about writing code and more about defining and understanding business objectives
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Oct 21, 2012 23:06
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WHOIS John Galt posted:i keep feeling like i'm at this crossroads tests would help, cos it's easier to notice when you break things. i'm really bad at testing. quote:i'm a bad coder same
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Oct 21, 2012 23:22
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everyone is a bad coder
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Oct 21, 2012 23:24
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mainly b/c programming languages are terrible tho
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Oct 21, 2012 23:25
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Milkie Galore posted:you see, kids today learn to cycle easy. they have training wheels, safety helmets. in my day they learned to cycle on penny-farthings, and thats the best way to learn to cycle. i havent moved on since 1890, so why should i let them take advantage of progress - i certainly havent get over yourself, your obsession with novelty and the new doesn't change that people need to think before programming. sure enough, getting them to type things out seems dumb, but if anything, it gets them accustomed with the editors and tools they're going to have to use.
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Oct 21, 2012 23:25
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well played
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Oct 21, 2012 23:26
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i just like flaming people, taking what they said and exaggerating it until it as obviously stupid to others, as it is to me. mostly, being a dick to programmers on the internet is fun
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Oct 21, 2012 23:28
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i guess it's growing up in scotland, where punching each other is considered affectionate
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Oct 21, 2012 23:29
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tef posted:i guess it's growing up in scotland, where punching each other is considered affectionate that's what they said to you??
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Oct 21, 2012 23:38
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Jonnty posted:that's what they said to you?? yeah man that means they're 'mates' now oi mate
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Oct 21, 2012 23:41
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WHOIS John Galt posted:oi mate 'here you'
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Oct 21, 2012 23:42
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blimey mate could you affectionately punch the space that surrounds my rear end sphincter
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Oct 21, 2012 23:45
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who wants boiled haggis
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Oct 21, 2012 23:58
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-16266520 also, this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPKb9z4l7eM
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Oct 22, 2012 00:10
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WHOIS John Galt posted:i keep feeling like i'm at this crossroads I think normally you'd learn his stuff from a senior guy on the job, but there are some resources online. Unless you're ridiculously bad, it sounds like you have trouble managing complexity and abstraction. Queue talk; http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy I would change jobs quick if you don't currently work with someone who can help you develop further. In this industry they're a diamond in the rough, but they tend to clump together.
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Oct 22, 2012 00:18
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hurricane bawbag
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Oct 22, 2012 00:18
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I have to interview a developer tomorrow what sort of coding test should I give them
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Oct 22, 2012 00:21
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