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GonadTheBallbarian posted:That's not slated to come out for a long while; only the RT version will be available starting tomorrow. Happy_Misanthrope posted:Not that I can see. Not coming until January however. Core i5/i7 Sandy bridge, thicker, will have a fan, and be more expensive, but obviously solve the problem of a limited desktop and performance. Thanks for the heads up. Guess I'll have to wait for January to get let down and not buy something.
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Oct 25, 2012 20:58
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Combat Pretzel posted:I've ordered from Microsoft Germany, so if I don't have it by this evening, I'll be poo poo out of luck. No multitouch or usability testing this weekend. FWIW, I bought one for my mom and still haven't gotten a shipping notice. However, I was able to use the order number to track it by reference through FedEx and it says it's going to get delivered by tomorrow. I guess we'll see.
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Oct 25, 2012 21:00
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Happy_Misanthrope posted:Man I love when people post this in response to their opinion being challenged. Okay so people who say they have problems with it are telling the truth and people who say they don't are lying? Why are negative opinions valid but positive ones aren't? Laptops aren't comfortable for everyone or loved by everyone. Why the gently caress would the Surface be when used in the same way?
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Oct 25, 2012 21:01
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Don Lapre posted:Im not debating the pros and cons of the surface. Im just saying that using it on your lap looks uncomfortable. Hey bro, we get it. Everything not ios sucks. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 25, 2012 21:03
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Barudak posted:Thanks for the heads up. Guess I'll have to wait for January to get let down and not buy something. I don't think it has a fan. You sure? I know it has a slot for passive cooling, but a fan?
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Oct 25, 2012 21:09
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.Tim posted:Why the gently caress would the Surface be when used in the same way?  pre-emptive "Uh, they're just unfolding it jerkwad" response
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Oct 25, 2012 21:13
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commish posted:Hey bro, we get it. Everything not ios sucks. The OS has nothing to do with it. Its the non adjustable kickstand angle that is the biggest problem. Its angled like you are going to use the surface on a table and cannot be adjusted for lower heights, like your lap. It would be nice if the stand could be adjusted back further so you could angle the screen further up. EDIT: if the stand was strong enough to support the tablet laying on its back it would be much better. Don Lapre fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Oct 25, 2012 |
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Oct 25, 2012 21:17
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Jerk McJerkface posted:I don't think it has a fan. You sure? I know it has a slot for passive cooling, but a fan? It's a full Ivy Bridge processor. I remember it having "perimeter cooling" during the keynote, which I think it means it has a fan that vents all the way around the device.
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Oct 25, 2012 21:18
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Kazy posted:It's a full Ivy Bridge processor. I remember it having "perimeter cooling" during the keynote, which I think it means it has a fan that vents all the way around the device. Your avatar captures the experience perfectly.
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Oct 25, 2012 21:21
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Jerk McJerkface posted:I don't think it has a fan. You sure? I know it has a slot for passive cooling, but a fan? Surface pro has an i5, so I'd bet that it's a fan.
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Oct 25, 2012 21:37
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Happy_Misanthrope posted:Yeah, I guess it's stupid for people to expect this no compromise device to work decently on their lap. Why in the gently caress would any idiot expect to use it that w- bro, you're just sitting wrong
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Oct 25, 2012 21:51
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Don Lapre posted:The OS has nothing to do with it. Its the non adjustable kickstand angle that is the biggest problem. Its angled like you are going to use the surface on a table and cannot be adjusted for lower heights, like your lap. It would be nice if the stand could be adjusted back further so you could angle the screen further up. The kickstand is 100% optional to use. People can always buy some kind of flip case as used by most everyone else, one that adjusts to multiple angles. That would be the "fair comparison". Its more choice, not less. Let's compare it to all other tablet built-in kickstands. It wins? At the very least, surface has all the good and bad of all other tablets physically in terms of accessories/form factor. But also a keyboard case and kickstand.
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Oct 25, 2012 22:10
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See, what I'm not understanding is why people think that RT is DOA. It's a brand new platform. The hardware for it is overpriced, sure, but it's not like iOS and Android were perfect when they came out, and the price tag is one reason a lot of people go Android instead of iOS. And I'm really intrigued that people think that the platform isn't capable of improving? Like, so initial reviews aren't glowing, and it's because Windows 8 is new to the game and hasn't even had a fighting chance, nor a chance to improve. Android is on 4.1 now. It hasn't always been 4.1.
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Oct 25, 2012 22:44
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Protocol7 posted:See, what I'm not understanding is why people think that RT is DOA. It's a brand new platform. The hardware for it is overpriced, sure, but it's not like iOS and Android were perfect when they came out, and the price tag is one reason a lot of people go Android instead of iOS. And I'm really intrigued that people think that the platform isn't capable of improving? Like, so initial reviews aren't glowing, and it's because Windows 8 is new to the game and hasn't even had a fighting chance, nor a chance to improve. Android is on 4.1 now. It hasn't always been 4.1. Mostly because of the ARM -> x86 gap is shrinking. If a low powered Atom ends up running the Windows Store App portions of Windows 8 as well as an ARM processor and can pull similar battery life numbers, why mess around with the Windows RT at all by that point? You basically get to have your cake and eat it too then.
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Oct 25, 2012 22:49
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Protocol7 posted:See, what I'm not understanding is why people think that RT is DOA. It's a brand new platform. The hardware for it is overpriced, sure, but it's not like iOS and Android were perfect when they came out, and the price tag is one reason a lot of people go Android instead of iOS. And I'm really intrigued that people think that the platform isn't capable of improving? Like, so initial reviews aren't glowing, and it's because Windows 8 is new to the game and hasn't even had a fighting chance, nor a chance to improve. Android is on 4.1 now. It hasn't always been 4.1. People think RT is DOA because it has significant compromises and performance issues compared to regular Win8, and not at a compelling price compared to Android or iOS. Plus, the clovertrail atoms look to be comparable on the CPU front and don't have the x86 compromises for just a bit more money, which seems more ideal for the target Windows consumer. As far as hitting the price point, Android and iOS and sizing their screens down to get there. Win8 seems to be targeting a 10.6" screen as the "ideal," and with a 1366x768 minimum resolution for snap it seems unlikely they'll hit lower price points with a 7" screen soon. Android OEMs basically ceded the 10" market to iPads and are fighting out the <$500 space. Meanwhile, Microsoft sails in with a $500+ product today. That explains a lot of the pessimism right there. MrBond fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Oct 25, 2012 |
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Oct 25, 2012 22:50
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Protocol7 posted:See, what I'm not understanding is why people think that RT is DOA. It's a brand new platform. The hardware for it is overpriced, sure, but it's not like iOS and Android were perfect when they came out, and the price tag is one reason a lot of people go Android instead of iOS. And I'm really intrigued that people think that the platform isn't capable of improving? Like, so initial reviews aren't glowing, and it's because Windows 8 is new to the game and hasn't even had a fighting chance, nor a chance to improve. Android is on 4.1 now. It hasn't always been 4.1. Apparently if you didn't start your App store in 2008 you're DOA. In all fairness to most of the detractors in this thread, I don't think a lot of them are saying it's necessarily DOA, but more of a wait-and-see, which I think is pretty reasonable given the circumstances. If the tablet were cheaper, or if the disparity in ecosystems weren't so severe, people would be more open to trying it. But the truth of the matter is that tomorrow, on launch day, the iPad is not only a cheaper device with better specs, but also has a full ecosystem. I have a feeling as x86 tablets gain a foothold and begin to bludgeon the Surface into obsolescence, that Microsoft might change their tune and really take a hard look at the price-tag and consider selling it at a cheaper price-point under the pretense that what they're selling you is a gimped form of the OS. Not only that, but as Apple/Google/Amazon get better and better at driving down the price of their tablets, I think Microsoft is going to have to face a hard truth about how much money they license the OS to OEMs for. I happen to think there's potential (though no guaranteed success) in RT, and might take an early dive this year as a vote of confidence, but I wouldn't begrudge anyone for not being particularly interested in the Surface at $600. There are aspects of Windows 8/RT that really excite me that will be worth some of the potential drawbacks. That said, the amount of vitriol and outright avarice towards this product in this thread is a little bit much. Jewmanji fucked around with this message at 22:53 on Oct 25, 2012 |
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Oct 25, 2012 22:50
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Jewmanji posted:Apparently if you didn't start your App store in 2008 you're DOA. Well not necessarily but more then likely. When you come to compete against someone that is established you have to be as good or better then them to have a shot. You don't get to make excuses and complain that you are new. People like apps, and if you don't have them why would they switch to you? And if people aren't switching, why would devs bother making apps. And then you get the death spiral.
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Oct 25, 2012 22:58
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Jewmanji posted:Apparently if you didn't start your App store in 2008 you're DOA. That's exactly how I feel. Some people may not like the price point, but seeing how I've been burned by Android several times and just plain can't stand iOS as a Tablet OS, Windows RT feels like a golden ship that sailed in from the night. I'm not quite sure the Surface itself is a good device, but alternatives like the Vivo Tab RT are very tantalizing. I guess though the point about cheaper x86 processors doing it as good as ARM is a fair one, but Christ, the asking prices of a lot of these tablets is just a lot for what you really get, and I can see that's where people are holding a lot of grudges.
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Oct 25, 2012 22:58
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Demon_Corsair posted:Well not necessarily but more then likely. People might be interested in switching if you can promise a core experience that differentiates itself somehow. Despite everyone's misgivings about the supposed performance issues, other people might be willing to stomach that stuff in exchange for some of the other niceties of the platform. I think most of the people you talk to who bought into Windows Phone (however small that minority may be), will tell you the same thing- that despite a lack of entrenched ecosystem on day 1, the core experience was so refreshing and had a lot of the most important core functionality baked into it by 7.5 that lacking certain apps was a worthwhile trade-off. Understandably, a tablet/pc OS is almost infinitely more reliant on its ecosystem, so there's less lee-way here than with Windows Phone, but it's not supposed to be a 1:1 analogy, just illustrative of a general sentiment.
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Oct 25, 2012 23:08
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- edit Nevermind.
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Oct 25, 2012 23:08
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Demon_Corsair posted:Well not necessarily but more then likely. That's exactly why Microsoft's tablet OS is Windows and not some brand new one. Most people with tablets still own a desktop or laptop. So for the foreseeable future, people will continue to buy those in enormous if steadily decreasing numbers. The idea is that the app ecosystem will piggyback on those device sales and hedge Windows 8 / RT into the tablet competition on the coattails of PC sales. It's an attempt to sidestep the long uphill battle nearly any new mobile platform will have to face, as evidenced by WP's extremely slow growth.
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Oct 25, 2012 23:10
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Jewmanji posted:Apparently if you didn't start your App store in 2008 you're DOA. You don't really need the apps if you can integrate third-party services directly into your platform. Microsoft had a great opportunity to own the user experience across a LOT of services that a LOT of people use every day, but decided not to. Think of all the ad revenue that could be generated by Microsoft by serving laundry detergent ads at the end of your NetFlix feed.
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Oct 25, 2012 23:10
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Protocol7 posted:I guess though the point about cheaper x86 processors doing it as good as ARM is a fair one, but Christ, the asking prices of a lot of these tablets is just a lot for what you really get, and I can see that's where people are holding a lot of grudges. Part of it may also be some people just really have no use for a tablet in their workflow, Windows, iOS, or Android. Different strokes. I think some of the hate for Windows 8 overall (not necessarily this thread, given this is IYG and a tablet thread) is that these people *are* being foisted upon a tablet world whether they like it or not.
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Oct 25, 2012 23:12
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Protocol7 posted:That's exactly how I feel. Then the best suggestion I can give you is to wait three to six months and see where the market is then. The gap that Windows RT fills today looks very likely to disappear with Intel's next generation of low-power CPUs that should be able to run Windows 8. Dealing with Windows 8's schizophrenic interface will at least make sense if you can also run legacy applications in the Desktop for the same price (and maybe less as Apple and Google wear the vendors down).
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Oct 25, 2012 23:16
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oval office AND PASTE posted:You don't really need the apps if you can integrate third-party services directly into your platform. Microsoft had a great opportunity to own the user experience across a LOT of services that a LOT of people use every day, but decided not to. I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but wasn't that exactly what people were mad about in the general Windows 8 thread, that there's adverts in the store/xbox music pages? I think I'm misunderstanding you.
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Oct 25, 2012 23:17
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Hey, this thread is generating a lot of reports. Stop being spergy dickheads. Before you post, think "Am I generating something useful here or do I just want to be right on the internet?" I'm not going to tell you which answer to that question means you should or should not post. It's a secret.
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Oct 25, 2012 23:17
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Jewmanji posted:I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but wasn't that exactly what people were mad about in the general Windows 8 thread, that there's adverts in the store/xbox music pages? I think I'm misunderstanding you. Rather than waiting for Netflix to crank out an app, integrate Netflix connectivity into the platform. Serve ads on it. Tell Netflix to make their own app, if they want, but who will bother to find it or use it when it's already there in the platform? Replace Netflix with any other popular service provider (Facebook, Twitter, Hulu)..
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Oct 25, 2012 23:19
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oval office AND PASTE posted:Rather than waiting for Netflix to crank out an app, integrate Netflix connectivity into the platform. Serve ads on it. Tell Netflix to make their own app, if they want, but who will bother to find it or use it when it's already there in the platform? Well that's pretty much what they did with Windows Phone isn't it? Twitter, Facebook, and a few other heavy hitters were made in-house. None of them are that good, and as long as you take that strategy, you'll always be playing catch-up. I'd really rather not have all of those be ad-supported experiences.
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Oct 25, 2012 23:23
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oval office AND PASTE posted:Rather than waiting for Netflix to crank out an app, integrate Netflix connectivity into the platform. Serve ads on it. Tell Netflix to make their own app, if they want, but who will bother to find it or use it when it's already there in the platform? Facebook and Twitter are both in the People hub, last I checked. Probably LinkedIn too, but gives a poo poo about that one? You also have to consider this is Microsoft. They spent all of 1998 to the current day fighting governments across the globe and paying billions in fines because they made the mistake of bundling a browser with their last OS. I'd make everything a separate download if I had gone though that.
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Oct 25, 2012 23:26
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Jewmanji posted:Well that's pretty much what they did with Windows Phone isn't it? Twitter, Facebook, and a few other heavy hitters were made in-house. None of them are that good, and as long as you take that strategy, you'll always be playing catch-up. I'd really rather not have all of those be ad-supported experiences. There are ways around the Catch-22 'lack of app ecosystem' problem. Even if Microsoft fully expects service providers to eventually step up and deploy an app, the functionality could have been there on Day 1.
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Oct 25, 2012 23:27
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oval office AND PASTE posted:There are ways around the Catch-22 'lack of app ecosystem' problem. Even if Microsoft fully expects service providers to eventually step up and deploy an app, the functionality could have been there on Day 1. What? Are you proposing that Microsoft bakes in the functionality from hundreds of thousands of apps into its ecosystem, and before it even launches? Or that they just cherry-pick a dozen or so? Because that's essentially what they do with Bing Weather, Finance etc. Are they also supposed to say "gently caress you" pre-emptively to Netflix, Hulu (both of whom are already on board, by the way), Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Pinterest, and whatever else, and spend enormous amounts of time and energy developing second-rate ad-supported apps? This doesn't make any sense. Also for some reason most people's priority is games (see all of the constant moaning before Windows Phone had Angry Birds). What are they supposed to do in that department?
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Oct 25, 2012 23:31
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Okay, the Surface RT is definitely late in Germany. They've "promised" delivery by the 26th on their store, but no one in Germany even received a shipping notification today. Some called their hotline and they're being shipped only starting tomorrow. gg Microsoft.
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Oct 25, 2012 23:40
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Jewmanji posted:Well that's pretty much what they did with Windows Phone isn't it? Twitter, Facebook, and a few other heavy hitters were made in-house. None of them are that good, and as long as you take that strategy, you'll always be playing catch-up. I'd really rather not have all of those be ad-supported experiences. But as for the concept of building apps in-house to propel users to your platform: Apple's built-in apps are usually the most highly reviewed. When developers weren't developing enough critical apps for OSX for example, Apple took it upon themselves to create iLife/iWork/Apeture/Final Cut, and although their focus has absolutely turned to iOS, when OSX was their own game they kept updating those apps on a regular basis. They not only were good for a limited ecosystem, they were so good that Windows had little to compare with in the early years. It not only gave the platform a use right OOTB, it raised the bar for third party software as well. Likewise, when idiot personnel at Best Buy didn't know what Macs were and couldn't be bothered, Apple, despite most laughing at the concept, decided to open their own stores. Wonder how that turned out. And of course, when the iPad was released, Apple had iBooks, then brought over iWork, Garageband, the best mobile browser in existence, iMovie, etc etc. Yes the app store selection helped, but they launched with best-of-breed apps, as well as hardware. They did so, so many things right, and in a virtually untapped market. If the apps included with Winphone/8 aren't "that good" (I think they're generally far better in WP7 relative to 8 at the moment actually), that's not necessarily a problem with taking the approach of building your apps in house - it's a problem of quality and not having the personnel, or the understanding at the top of how to create truly compelling software. The Live suite for example, released a few years ago was pretty decent, but it's largely stagnated - the 2012 release is barely different from 2011, and in some cases (such as Live Mesh) it's a regression. On RT, it's worse - no Outlook, no Live Mail Desktop, just Metro Mail - which is one of the weakest apps in Win8, and in fact weaker in some ways than what's on Windows Phone. You're launching a new platform that you're advocating has few compromises, and the only way you can get mail outside of being connected constantly to webmail (a bit of a problem since there's no 3G/LTE model of Surface RT), is with a horribly limited mail app. Windows Games is another example; it started out with lots of promise, but MS never put any funding into it and diverted everything to the Xbox (which on a project basis has yet to make it into the black), and Steam completely took over due to their apathy. The old adage that MS keeps "plugging away" is basically bullshit, outside of Office they frequently abandon products early on and duplicate work to no benefit. It takes a toll on the perception of a company, especially when you're embedding yourself in an ecosystem with a phone/tablet purchase, you want it to have some legs. Kin, Zune, and now Winphone 7 had promises of a bountiful ecosystem...and, well, yeah. It's perfectly reasonable for customers to be cautious with that track record. It should be worrisome to MS as a software company that the harshest critique of the Surface isn't the hardware...it's the software. Happy_Misanthrope fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Oct 25, 2012 |
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Oct 25, 2012 23:42
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Thank you for saying this better than I could.
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Oct 25, 2012 23:47
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That makes a lot of sense, thanks for spelling it out in those terms (though I'm not sure I'd lump Windows Phone in with the Kin/Zune just yet...)
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Oct 25, 2012 23:52
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PlaneGuy posted:You also have to consider this is Microsoft. They spent all of 1998 to the current day fighting governments across the globe and paying billions in fines because they made the mistake of bundling a browser with their last OS. I'd make everything a separate download if I had gone though that. This is not remotely what happened, they were abusing a legal monopoly with their OS to illegally force a monopoly on a separate product in particular a non-standards compliant product that their OS monopoly would basically force web developers to support to the detriment of standards compliant products. They were also illegally strong arming OEMs into eliminating competing products in the way they were allowed to bundle practically anything else. It's really not a similar situation at all. Three Olives fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Oct 25, 2012 |
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Oct 25, 2012 23:55
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Jewmanji posted:That makes a lot of sense, thanks for spelling it out in those terms (though I'm not sure I'd lump Windows Phone in with the Kin/Zune just yet...) I'm strictly referring to Windows Phone 7.5/7.8. As Winphone 8 apps are not compatible with Winphone 7, and as most carriers will dump WP7 in the western world shortly after WP8 phones hit, it is basically a dead platform at this point. We'll see with Winphone 8, personally I like Windows Phone relative to the competition a heck of a lot more than Surface/Win8, but I'm not terribly upbeat on its chances. Edit: As whatever 7 noted, that's basically two app phone platforms (WM6/7) cut off at the knees in a span of just over 3 years (you might even say 3, but Kin was such an aborted attempt I don't think anyone even knew what it was to regard it as a "platform"). Why should anyone give MS of all people a pass with a new ecosystem when they've treated their recent customers who have taken a chance this way? Happy_Misanthrope fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Oct 26, 2012 |
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Oct 26, 2012 00:04
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Protocol7 posted:See, what I'm not understanding is why people think that RT is DOA. It's a brand new platform. The hardware for it is overpriced, sure, but it's not like iOS and Android were perfect when they came out, and the price tag is one reason a lot of people go Android instead of iOS. And I'm really intrigued that people think that the platform isn't capable of improving? Like, so initial reviews aren't glowing, and it's because Windows 8 is new to the game and hasn't even had a fighting chance, nor a chance to improve. Android is on 4.1 now. It hasn't always been 4.1. Assuming you really are curious. I have some ideas. * Bad experience people had with webOS and Playbook OS. People are afraid to buy into new "ecosystem". They don't want their hearts to be broken again. * My personal reason. My feeling were severely hurt when MS decided to cut the WM6 platform off and burn the bridge with the WM6 fans on it. If it wasn't for the open source Android and the community, my HD2 would have turn a dead rock a long time ago. Having one successful closed mobile OS (iOS) is enough, I don't want to see the success of any new MS propietary mobile system (which is alot more "closed" than regular window OS if you know what mean) These are two emotional reasons. As far as rational reasons, I just think MS has made too many mistakes in the pricing and distribution channel, among other things. There is no need to go into them because you just need to wait till after the holiday to get a sense of the sales.
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Oct 26, 2012 00:04
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Protocol7 posted:See, what I'm not understanding is why people think that RT is DOA. It's a brand new platform. The hardware for it is overpriced, sure, but it's not like iOS and Android were perfect when they came out, and the price tag is one reason a lot of people go Android instead of iOS. And I'm really intrigued that people think that the platform isn't capable of improving? Like, so initial reviews aren't glowing, and it's because Windows 8 is new to the game and hasn't even had a fighting chance, nor a chance to improve. Android is on 4.1 now. It hasn't always been 4.1. The most important rule of buying technology is buy it never expecting an upgrade ever, the reality is the manufacture of every flawed device always promises to fix it and it rarely pans out. I don't think Microsoft really needs that many apps right now and the ones that they do like Netflix they can buy, HTML 5 is incredibly mature and most of a user's needs can be satisfied that way, many already are thanks to the popularity of the iPad and while apps have obviously been very successful the web experience is often optimized and close to that of apps themselves. I think Surface could really get away with not having many apps as long as the core experience was flawless and MS put out a kludgey mess of a core experience, if you can't get the basics right you can't expect developers to swoop in and fix your problems for you.
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Oct 26, 2012 00:17
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One thing I can see the surface having an edge over iOS and Android, is the fact that RT should have Windows Updates on all RT devices and all devices will be running the latest version. IOS is pretty good but each iOS version seems to leave some devices in the cold. We will see how RT devices look but seeing how Windows 8 can run on hardware older than what Vista was installed on, it wouldn't be crazy to see Win 9 version of RT to be on the current hen surface.
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Oct 26, 2012 01:10
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