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The only way it could be wired for 240v and not trip the breakers is if one hot was on the hot lug, another was on the neutral lug, and the neutrals were on the ground lug or disconnected.
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Oct 24, 2012 16:24
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Question about attic wiring. I am getting my house insulated and my local code does not allow the insulation to be put over knob and tube. Not that I had any plans on doing so even if they allowed it. So I have to replace basically all the wire feeding the lights to my second floor. The feeder cables from the main panel in my basement are single wires with extremely thick insulation on them, about as thick as my finger. Which then are spliced together at knob junctions into regular single wire knob and tube which feed to my lights. To complicate matters I have a full attic that I am planning on turning into a bedroom. What would be the best approach to getting this done? A guy I work with suggested these things: http://www.ampnetconnect.com/documents/NM_Connector_Presentation_Rev3_Web.pdf I had just planned on putting a bunch of junction boxes in what will become the closet. This will be a pain in the rear end because the feed from my main panel is at the front of the attic and where the closet is going is at the back of the attic. Or any other suggestions are welcome.
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Oct 25, 2012 16:07
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Best way: pull new cable for the circuit all the way from the panel. Cut the knob and tube back as far as you can, insulate the ends - if any of the knob and tube will remain active, that is, else just abandon the unreachable portions in place. Make sure you check every outlet and light in the house to make sure they aren't powered off the circuit if you intend to completely disable and replace it, finding out the living room light doesn't work anymore after the fact is not a fun surprise. You may be able to get away with replacing just the portions that will be insulated with romex and properly grounding it, but don't count on it. Ask the inspector first. As for the thick wire, that is actually regular knob and tube cloth+rubber insulated wire with impregnated cloth loom tubing slipped over it. It was commonly used where the wires were inside walls, passed through framing between floors, entered junction boxes or were otherwise at risk of chafing.
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Oct 25, 2012 17:06
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kastein posted:Best way: pull new cable for the circuit all the way from the panel. Cut the knob and tube back as far as you can, insulate the ends - if any of the knob and tube will remain active, that is, else just abandon the unreachable portions in place. Make sure you check every outlet and light in the house to make sure they aren't powered off the circuit if you intend to completely disable and replace it, finding out the living room light doesn't work anymore after the fact is not a fun surprise. I will have to do an all new circuit. They absolutely will not do the insulation if there is active knob and tube. I guess I should have framed my question a little more clearly. What I am asking is if there is another way to do the circuit. Since the attic will be finished I can't put the junction boxes on the top of the floor joists and I can't hide junction boxes in the enclosed floor. I would A. use those splice/taps to run the circuit for the lights and switches and/or any plugs that may be attached. My local Home Depot carries these. or B. run the new circuit to the far end of the attic and place all my junction boxes that I will need in the wall of what will become the new bedroom closet. or C. some other option that I haven't considered.
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Oct 25, 2012 20:22
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I guess those could work, personally I don't like them, but that's probably superstition and a general suspicion of newfangled things like plastic boxes and NM-C punchdown splices. What will you need junction boxes for? If you're doing a whole new circuit basically, there's no real reason to need them except where adding lights or outlets, which require a new box anyways. Only reason I'd use junction boxes anywhere is if you're tapping into the old knob and tube outside of the to-be-insulated area for your power source, which may or may not fly with your building inspector like I said.
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Oct 25, 2012 22:03
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The splice connector worksheet says it can't be concealed in new work, so I would go with option B.
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Oct 25, 2012 22:08
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Carabus posted:The splice connector worksheet says it can't be concealed in new work, so I would go with option B. It's not new work, I will fishing the cable through the walls and ripping up small sections of attic floor to fish the wire through the floor joists. Under permitted uses section it says "Re-wiring in existing buildings where cable is concealed and finished." All the cable is inside of existing finished walls and the finished attic floor. kastein posted:
I had a thing all typed up asking how in the world you would do it with out needing junction boxes to rewire the existing lights/plugs, until I realized I was being an idiot. I blame the doubles I've been working all week. Good thing I start this project after I get back from vacation.
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Oct 25, 2012 23:41
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happens to everyone, no worries! The hardest part is resisting cutting the cable to length until you've snaked it completely in. I suggest adding a healthy 10-15% to the estimated length of the wire you'll need - possibly more. There's also a significant discount to be had if you buy coils 100' or longer, at least last time I bought romex, the 25 and 50' coils were significantly marked up but 100, 250, and 1000 were within five or ten bucks per 1000' of each other so I just buy in 250 foot coils now. I'm about to open up my third coil working on this house... or is it my fourth? I don't even know anymore  There's nothing like realizing you're out of cable and not done fishing through a long run yet, thus my 10-15% fudge factor suggestion. Even worse when you fish it in working alone, then go back downstairs to check on how much you have left and realize it's too short and the end has disappeared into the wall. Only had to do that once to learn my lesson... that was ten years ago, I'm gutting my current place completely for a variety of reasons which makes the wiring super easy.
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Oct 26, 2012 00:36
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Farside posted:I will have to do an all new circuit. They absolutely will not do the insulation if there is active knob and tube. Where your panel is, run your circuit up the interior wall and put a j-box on that wall. You can put a blank plate on it after the wall is finished. Send all your runs out from that. How finished is your attic now? I see it has walls and floors already? I'm used to attics that are just joists everywhere.
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Oct 26, 2012 15:30
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:Where your panel is, run your circuit up the interior wall and put a j-box on that wall. You can put a blank plate on it after the wall is finished. Send all your runs out from that. It's partially finished except the opposite end of where the feed comes from the main panel. Moot point anyway since I realized I wasn't thinking about the problem clearly and figured out how to do it. kastein posted:happens to everyone, no worries! I'll be buying my 3rd roll of 250' for this house probably half way through rewiring the second floor. I am amazed this house hasn't burned down yet with all the stupid poo poo I've found. With a finished basement and a semi-finished attic all of it was hidden. Spliced wires not in boxes, spliced wires embedded in drywall mud, dining room chandelier attached to a box held into a joist with 1 drywall screw that wasn't even screwed all the way in, etc . The most recent is I pulled a few more floor boards up in the attic last night and found that at least 2 of the second floor lights have no boxes and the fixtures are just screwed into the plaster/lathe ceiling. Scariest was when I was running cat 5. I bent one of the staples i was using and I was prying the staple out of the wood using a screw driver. The staple popped free and my screw driver touched the side of a metal box and a nearby heating duct. Electricity arched through the screw driver melting the 2 points of contact and showered me in melted metal. Turns out the box I hit had a 30A 240V feed to my garage. After killing the circuit to find out what the gently caress was going on, I found that who ever clamped the cable into the box tightened it so much that the clamp cut through the outer insulation, the paper wrap and then through the individual wire insulation. To top it off the metal box wasn't properly grounded either.
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Oct 26, 2012 16:18
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How old is your house? If it's relatively new find the electrician and put him on blast.
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Oct 26, 2012 22:06
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He was asking about upgrading from knob and tube, and installing insulation, so I am going to bet on 1930s or earlier...
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Oct 26, 2012 23:25
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kastein posted:He was asking about upgrading from knob and tube, and installing insulation, so I am going to bet on 1930s or earlier... Well, I missed that entirely.
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Oct 27, 2012 02:17
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Built in 1858, some years (decades?) before electricity was anywhere near common in homes. The house originally had natural gas lighting. The electrical is a hodge podge of various vintages. Most of what I have seen looks good and up to code, or at least what was code when it was installed. The stuff that I described before came from the late 1990's according to the dates on the romex. That would mean 2 owners ago did some DIY poo poo with out regards to doing it right.
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Oct 27, 2012 02:54
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The lights in my living room are controlled by three switches: one of them is a single switch, one is next to three other switches (all covered by a 4 count switch plate cover) and one is a dimmer. We put up paneling and want to cover the old dimmer switch because it is in an inconvenient place and change the singular switch to a dimmer that is compatible with LED and CFL lights. Question is, we can't find a 4-way dimmer switch that is C-L light compatible, and wonder if there is more to the process than simply covering up the old dimmer switch and changing out the single switch to a dimmer.
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Oct 29, 2012 22:31
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Isn't a 4-way switch the same as a 3-way or a 2-way, just more of them on the chain? I don't know how a dimmer figures into that, of course.
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Oct 29, 2012 22:36
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3 ways switches are single-pole, double-throw. 4-way are double-pole, double-throw, but offset so one pole is always open at any time. If you have more than 2 switches in a circuit, the switches in the middle need to be 4-way.Opera Bitch posted:The lights in my living room are controlled by three switches: one of them is a single switch, one is next to three other switches (all covered by a 4 count switch plate cover) and one is a dimmer. We put up paneling and want to cover the old dimmer switch because it is in an inconvenient place and change the singular switch to a dimmer that is compatible with LED and CFL lights. Question is, we can't find a 4-way dimmer switch that is C-L light compatible, and wonder if there is more to the process than simply covering up the old dimmer switch and changing out the single switch to a dimmer.
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Oct 29, 2012 22:41
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Opera Bitch posted:The lights in my living room are controlled by three switches: one of them is a single switch, one is next to three other switches (all covered by a 4 count switch plate cover) and one is a dimmer. We put up paneling and want to cover the old dimmer switch because it is in an inconvenient place and change the singular switch to a dimmer that is compatible with LED and CFL lights. Question is, we can't find a 4-way dimmer switch that is C-L light compatible, and wonder if there is more to the process than simply covering up the old dimmer switch and changing out the single switch to a dimmer. I'm not sure if this actually will do what you need and you're probably best off just calling their support line, but the Lutron MAF-6AM with the MA-R companion is compatible with both CFLs and LEDs and provides dimming from multiple locations. http://www.lutron.com/TechnicalDocumentLibrary/Spec%20Guide%20Volume%201%20Maestro.pdf
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Oct 29, 2012 22:53
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crocodile posted:check the voltage at the range plug. assuming it's an electric range, if you have the proper 120v to each leg and 240v across them both, it's probably something wrong with the stove itself. if you're not getting the proper voltage the breaker could possibly be going bad, or there's a bad junction somewhere, or..etc. next step would be to check the voltage, though. A few wires in the box were loose. After tightening them up, it hasn't done it a single time.
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Oct 30, 2012 01:43
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Does the color of electrical wire have any specific meaning (the overall casing, not the individuals)? I'm looking to make some runs (and have it checked by an actual electrician before I finish), and have the choice of red, yellow, black, green, blue, white. I was going to grab the white...
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Nov 1, 2012 17:50
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Bare, green, green with yellow stripes: ONLY for ground/earth wiring. White: ONLY for neutral wiring. If nothing else is available in the cable used, you are permitted to permanently mark each end of a white wire using ink, paint, or tape of any color other than white to indicate it's not a neutral. IIRC NEC 2011 has made it a requirement that there be either a neutral wire or space in a raceway for adding a neutral wire in the future at all switch boxes, so you probably won't gain much from using a white wire as anything but neutral anyways. Any other color: hot wire. How are you getting a choice in wire colors? Are you running individual conductors in conduit/raceway? I hope you aren't thinking of running individual wires directly in-wall/on-wall, as that's definitely against code, needs to be some kind of sheathed cable such as NM-C, BX/MC, UF for exterior/buried cable, etc.
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Nov 1, 2012 18:32
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It sounds like he's talking about the color of the jacket on a bundle, not about the insulation on the individual conductors.
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Nov 1, 2012 18:38
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In that case, isn't white usually 14 gauge, yellow usually 12 gauge, etc? I can't remember but I'm thinking maybe orange is 10? I'm curious what he's looking at that all these colors are an option. You're not looking at unfinished extension cord or something, are you? What country are you in? 
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Nov 1, 2012 18:40
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Recently, all the NM wire we got in started to be standardized as the outer jacket being: White - 14ga Yellow - 12ga Orange - 10ga And for individual wires, Yellow, Brown and Orange are reserved for high voltage.
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Nov 1, 2012 19:04
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Hopefully you're correct and he's talking about jacket colors - I assumed otherwise because I've only seen white/yellow/orange NM cable, like Nemico. I really do like that they're color coding the jacket now, makes it way easier for me to pick the right coil of cable.
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Nov 1, 2012 19:06
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Also easier to identify when looking at an existing installation.
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Nov 1, 2012 19:18
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Yes I'm talking about the jacket (sounds like I want yellow), I'm in Canada, looking at what Home Depot has listed on their website. http://tinyurl.com/buxpgrw The different options seem to correspond to material used for the actual wire itself or something? I wasn't sure since it's all acronyms, etc, NMD90, T90, NMWU... no idea which option to choose. Looking at 12/2 for residential, primarily running wire for a new dishwasher. Pweller fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Nov 1, 2012 |
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Nov 1, 2012 21:00
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If it's for running inside your walls you want NMD90. NMWU is for burial without conduit, and T90 is just loose, individual wire.
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Nov 1, 2012 21:02
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Nemico posted:If it's for running inside your walls you want NMD90. NMWU is for burial without conduit, and T90 is just loose, individual wire. Ok, so I'm buying this on the weekend then http://www.homedepot.ca/product/12-2-cu-nmd-90-yellow-jkt-w-g-csa-75m/908307 thanks guys Also, I'm about to map out the breakers down to each outlet and lightswitch with pen and paper, since I just moved into this house and am not 100% sure where everything is running. Is there any software someone can recommend to make a quick and dirty layout of my house and each of the outlets, and number them corresponding to their breaker?
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Nov 1, 2012 21:07
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First thing that comes to mind is Google Sketchup, though I've never used it. ... I should map my house at some point, in something other than the software I'm using to design my radiant heating system. Dumb question for the Canadian electricians, if there are any on here: in Canada do you use white/black for neutral/hot, or the EU/AC/IEC blue/brown? General color code info, covers many standards, countries, and eras of wiring: http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_5/chpt_2/2.html kastein fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Nov 1, 2012 |
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Nov 1, 2012 21:11
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kastein posted:Dumb question for the Canadian electricians, if there are any on here: in Canada do you use white/black for neutral/hot, or the EU/AC/IEC blue/ White/black. We're pretty similar to the American codes but tend to lag behind a bit. And since it wasn't specifically mentioned, that 12/2 dishwasher circuit needs to be on a dedicated 20A breaker.
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Nov 1, 2012 22:51
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Moved into my girlfriend's place, and the room where I need my computer to go has no three pronged outlets. I opened up two of the existing ones and pulled things out to get a look inside, and there's no grounding wire at all inside that I could connect to a new outlet. It's an old steel box with cloth/paper insulation around the back of the wires. The outlet would realistically have two monitors, a stereo, and my computer hooked up to to through a strip. Do I get the benefit of putting a GFCI in even though I don't have a true ground? Or do I just risk it with a 2-->3 prong adapter which effectively does nothing?
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Nov 1, 2012 23:32
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Pweller posted:Yes I'm talking about the jacket (sounds like I want yellow), I'm in Canada, looking at what Home Depot has listed on their website. Color coding isn't legally required, but is good practice. If you buy yellow #12 like you linked to, you're OK for just about any 15 or 20A circuit. white: #14 15A general circuit yellow: #12 20A general circuit orange: #10 30A general circuit blue: #14 ACFI protected circuit red: 240V with no neutral white: #8 and larger (though I've seen these black, too) I've never seen anyone use red or blue romex. grover fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Nov 1, 2012 |
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Nov 1, 2012 23:39
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Nemico posted:Recently, all the NM wire we got in started to be standardized as the outer jacket being: There was a time not that long ago that all Romex brand was simply white. It had it's gauge stamped into the jacket. The colors are quite the improvement
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Nov 2, 2012 05:39
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Need some help figuring out what the hell just happened with a new 3-way switched lighting circuit. 14-2 into the first box, hot to the common terminal. 14-3 to the second box carrying the neutral and two travelers. 14-2 from the second box to the light fixture, hot off of the second switch's common terminal. Circuit is on a new AFCI breaker. Turned it on last night, and the light only came on when both switches were "up". Figured I just did something moronic and turned it off, went to check on it this morning. Pulled the switches out of their boxes, verified everything was on the right terminals. Turned the circuit on without touching anything, and it worked... So, circuit back off, checked for loose connections, damaged wiring, didn't see anything wrong. Put everything back together and it's still working. What would cause this? Bad switch? If I had anything crossed or shorted, I either shouldn't have been able to turn the light off, or the breaker should have tripped, right?
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Nov 2, 2012 15:37
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Nemico posted:Recently, all the NM wire we got in started to be standardized as the outer jacket being: Thank god for this. My parents built an extension onto their house over 10 years ago off the old dining room, which became their new breakfast area afterward. I just put a new recessed outlet box in this room for a wall TV, and the existing junction box I patched it into in the basement now has 3 runs of 12ga into it, colored black, white and yellow, oldest to newest.
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Nov 2, 2012 17:39
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there was a time in the...late 70s-ish/early 80s-ish? when someone was selling baby blue and pink romex. i've only seen it in a few houses but they were all within a 10mi radius of each other.
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Nov 2, 2012 23:54
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Raised by Hamsters posted:
If you fixed it without touching anything, it was a messed up contact on one of the switches. They're mechanical, they fail.
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Nov 3, 2012 03:41
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Anyone have experience with panel replacements in closets? For some reason my house is laid out in the mirrored configuration that put the garage on the opposite end of the electrical service. None of the other houses on this street have this problem. Anyway my panel is in my office (bedroom) closet. An electrician claimed that replacing the panel would mean it has to be moved outside since it can't be in a closet. My reading of the NEC code just says it can't be in an enclosed space with flammables like clothes. I can easily pull the hanging bar out, I use it as a server closet anyway. Do you think the city would give me a pass on that, or would it depend on the mood of the inspector? I have 200A service right now, but its an old Pushmatic panel with some questionable wiring, like the pool pump driving its legs of 220 off two separate breakers (thankfully opposite polarity). Also any idea what a panel replacement like this should run? For fun: The previous owners remodeled the kitchen and split the free-standing range into a wall oven (on the old 50A circuit) and stovetop. They did this by taking the 30A dryer circuit, rerouting to a sub panel, then running the stovetop, dryer, outdoor fixtures, garage outlets, and some other random circuits off it. That pretty much sums up the "quality" of work they did. Why not use the 50A line at least?  I installed an induction cooktop and ran 6/3 to the main panel (had to take the kitchen apart to get to it since you can't get to that area in the attic to pull the wires), paid way too much for a 40A Pushmatic replacement breaker, and now can use the dryer and stovetop at the same time. Also replaced the Federal Pacific subpanel with something less likely to burn the house down. Even installed a properly grounded metal junction box under the counter like a professional.
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Nov 3, 2012 04:02
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| # ? May 11, 2024 07:13 |
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Ender.uNF posted:Anyone have experience with panel replacements in closets? For some reason my house is laid out in the mirrored configuration that put the garage on the opposite end of the electrical service. None of the other houses on this street have this problem.
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Nov 3, 2012 04:15
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