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Martello posted:Saving Private Ryan has that seen where Ed Burns is telling the story about the busty woman at his mother's seamstress shop. It has nothing to do with the actual storyline, but it gives a glimpse into Reiben's past, personality, and it's very much the kind of thing we soldiers talk about during those boring lulls in combat. I see what you're saying, and it's a good point. It's just that, man, it is really hard for writers to pull this off without being gross about it. Like the example you mentioned with the vest, etc. If you're able to tell have one or more of your characters tell such a story- and have it mean something very specific about his personality, then absolutely I agree it can and should be in there. But as I'm sure you're aware, gratuitously crude stuff will turn off nearly all readers, for better or worse. A good example of pulling it off would be like how it's done in A Clockwork Orange. Nobody on earth would deny that it's an incredibly violent and sexual story, but it's done in such a way that doesn't seem utterly gratuitous. Alex posted:I would read of these starry yahoodies tolchocking each other and then peeting their Hebrew vino and getting on to the bed with their wives' like hand-maidens, real horrorshow. That kept me going, brothers. I didn't so much kopat the later part of the book, which is more like all preachy govoreeting than fighting and the old in-out. That's pretty drat intense, and tells you a lot about that character, without him being all "tits, dicks, killin' dudes, nipples, hurf de durf". So I'm just saying that there needs to be a solid narrative reason for everything a given character does or says. If there is, it's pretty hard to mess anything up.
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Oct 19, 2012 13:47
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The fact that a male writer wouldn't catch themselves doing that and think "hey, maybe that comes off as sleazy!" makes me regard them as weird not just as a writer but as a human being. (I'm also male.) I mean the full-on neckbeard George R.R. Martin sort of way. It reminds me of people who write Mary Sue characters who are Always Right, and have to put up with other characters who are Always Wrong, and the whole story is just about how awesome they are. It really goes beyond writing; it puts you inside their mindset, the way they actually look at the world, and it's a weird place to be. This is veering off from writing about minorities, but I've been reconnecting with some old uni friends and reading some of their stuff, and a lot of it is in that vein. I mean, I shouldn't lecture, I've written some pretty pulpy poo poo, but I just can't stand these heroic characters they come up with that are utterly competent and - more importantly - utterly free of doubt. They never question what they're doing, they never reflect on themselves, they never worry or fear or feel torn between decisions. They only reason I would ever write a character like that is for hubris, leading to their fall. Maybe I'm just a over-analytic, neurotic nerd, but whenever I read viewpoint characters like that I just seriously wonder where the writer's head is at.
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Oct 19, 2012 14:01
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Yeah, a male character talking/thinking about a woman's breasts is a whole different animal than a female character talking/thinking about her own. The male character's probably going to come off as vulgar or sleazy, depending on how far he goes with it, but that's a valid character trait and you just have to make sure that you're portraying the character the way you want him to be seen (i.e. if he's not supposed to be vulgar or sleazy, dial back on that poo poo a little.) But when a (straight) male author writes a woman who is constantly thinking about or making reference to her breasts, it suggests a lack of ability to get out of his own mindset. Because he is thinking about her breasts all the time, clearly she must be. Yeah, humans are all fundamentally the same when you get down to it, and women aren't some mysterious Other, but it's really problematic when you are writing from a female character's POV and she is objectifying herself. Breasts are just another body part, and they aren't even inherently sexual (as in, they aren't involved in the standard act of sex), and when you're working from the perspective of the person whose body they are attached to, it's important not to fetishize or emphasize them. In reference to my looks, I probably think about my hips or stomach or thighs just as much as my breasts. They just aren't some magical focus point to a (straight) woman. I'm honestly not sure about a lesbian POV, but the average person doesn't fetishize their own body/isn't sexually attracted to themselves so I imagine it would be the same. Boy, that's a lot of words about titties!
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Oct 19, 2012 14:06
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The lesbian thing is a very good question for me, since I'm working on a story with a lesbian protagonist in first-person. I kinda made her a dude with tits and a vagina, which is probably not right, but all my female beta-readers have liked it. These are not the usual friends and family members who say "ooh I love anything you write," but rather judgmental and surly younger sisters and female friends who would love to tell me I suck. Anyway I probably hosed it up a lot despite all the research I did into lesbian slang and society before I wrote it. I'll be posting rewrites of it in the October Writing Pledge thread if anyone wants to come in there and tell me it's awful. Anyway, yeah, writing about sex parts or sexy parts jeez when there ain't no sex happening is tough and needs to be approached properly. VVV: Fixed, hopefully. Martello fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Oct 19, 2012 |
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Oct 19, 2012 17:05
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Yes, but dudes also need to get out of the mindset that breasts are inherently "sex parts." They're only sex parts in the sense that people who are sexually attracted to women are usually attracted to/aroused by breasts as an aspect of the female figure. They aren't inherently involved in the sexual act and don't serve an inherent sexual function. To a woman who isn't into other women, they're just these lumps on her chest that get in the way sometimes and that men are attracted to and that may or may not produce milk for her real or theoretical children.
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Oct 19, 2012 17:31
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CB_Tube_Knight posted:I would like to say I will read it, but to be honest I don't think it fits into my type of book. Usually I stick to genre fiction, I gave some books a friend of mine recommended mostly because the recommendation came from her. I bore very easily with books and will just put them down if they bore me. All of the erotica I have tried to give a chance did this. Lord of the Rings did this. A Clash of Kings did this too.
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Oct 19, 2012 20:49
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Mike Works posted:A Clash of Kings? Really? What was the hurdle there? I just got bored with it. There's not always a hurdle, there's just some books that are not for me. I read the first book as I was watching the first season so I stayed ahead of the show the whole time. When the first book ended I was kind of like "Eh, this is okay". The second book added nothing for me. I got about 65% of the way through it and just put it down. I've never really been the kind to start reading something and just finish it because I started it. I don't do that with television shows or movies, so I don't see the need to do it with books. Not all books are for everyone. I think that my biggest issue in a A Clash of Kings is I found out how short of an amount of time passes in all the books (over the course of the series). On top of that I felt that the author was just fluffing things up with words, most of it was extraneous. If someone feels the need to drag their word count out for no reason, I don't feel the need to read it. For me a story should be as short as it can be to get the point across clearly. squeegee posted:Yes, but dudes also need to get out of the mindset that breasts are inherently "sex parts." They're only sex parts in the sense that people who are sexually attracted to women are usually attracted to/aroused by breasts as an aspect of the female figure. They aren't inherently involved in the sexual act and don't serve an inherent sexual function. To a woman who isn't into other women, they're just these lumps on her chest that get in the way sometimes and that men are attracted to and that may or may not produce milk for her real or theoretical children. But we can't act like women don't worry over the size of their breasts or even the shape at times. A semi-famous internet personality recently spoke about putting a Kickstarter up because she felt that she needed to get surgery to enlarge her breasts and give her the breasts she always figured she would have. So I think it's safe to say that depending on the personality of the character, they might agonize over their breasts or really like them and like showing them off (I've known women like that too). CB_Tube_Knight fucked around with this message at 09:24 on Oct 20, 2012 |
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Oct 20, 2012 09:19
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Ok, so I've made some major progress and substantial revisions to a novel that I have been working on for the last year. I've still got a tonne of work to do, and I've been trimming and chopping things in and out. It's sitting at 70k words right now after major subplot revisions, the deletion and creation of a few side characters, and the addition of stronger thematic elements. I posted a segment of it in this thread last year around this time and the consensus was the opening paragraphs were 'not horrible'. I was hoping that I might be able to post a chapter in here prior to making a larger thread about it, so I can clean up any bone headed mistakes that I've somehow overlooked before people can start eating into the faults and flaws of this work as a whole. Would anyone in here be interested in criticizing the opening chapter? Also, I've had to abandon some of my beta readers from the previous version because, even though their advice was excellent and almost entirely taken aboard, the revisions that I've made incorporate much more of themselves (being family and friends) then they would like, and I don't think I can get an objective analysis out of them anymore. Can you guys recommend a service that allows me to exchange beta reads? I had a look at scribophile but there don't seem to be any recent posts on this particular subject, and I was hoping for some recommendations.
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Oct 20, 2012 10:22
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CB_Tube_Knight posted:They're still a very common erogenous zone and women do sometimes make a big deal about their own breasts. It's true that there are too many stories out there where men write women as if they're fascinated with their breasts. I agree with pretty much all of this. We need to be careful not to swing the pendulum so far away from what might be perceived as creepy and sexist to the point where our characters are bland and sexless. Sometimes the shape of a woman's -- or a man's -- body is important to their character and the things that happen to them in a story, just like it might be in real life. For example, one of the main characters I write about, Bronco, is a huge meathead who wanted even more muscle mass and so got muscle grafts on top of what he already had from lifting. This is set in the 2030s so such things are possible. He also has a huge dick. Both of those things are important to his character, as they would be in real life. A huge dude is going to get different reactions from pretty much everybody of either sex than a skinny little guy will. Certain women will be much more attracted to him, and some others will be disgusted. Having a huge dick goes the same way once he gets to bed with them. I know it sounds ridiculous, but these are real problems that real people face. Some women just don't want a guy that's hung like a horse (thus "Bronco") and it can cause issues in bed. I understand that not everyone would want to read about or write a story like that, but to me that's the way life is and I want to represent that in my writing. And what if a female character is going after Bronco (for example), but she's a very slim athletic type? Does he just say that he's not attracted to her and leave it at that, or is it important for the reader to know that he likes very curvy women and that's why he isn't into her? I think it is. It shows what kind of guy he is, for better or worse. However, A Clash of Kings is an awesome book. 
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Oct 20, 2012 16:01
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hiddenmovement posted:Ok, so I've made some major progress and substantial revisions to a novel that I have been working on for the last year. I've still got a tonne of work to do, and I've been trimming and chopping things in and out. It's sitting at 70k words right now after major subplot revisions, the deletion and creation of a few side characters, and the addition of stronger thematic elements. Sure. Post a thread, is probably the best way. I'll prepare my flensing knife.
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Oct 21, 2012 01:38
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Question to all of you: How do you feel about low work magic systems? I ask because I was listening to "I Should Be Writing" and Lou Anders was on talking about how there's a growing trend in the US where a character doesn't have to put any time studying or learning into their power, they just have to believe that they can do it or believe in themselves and it works. He was talking about hating systems that work like this and thinking that they are just wish-fulfillment and lazy writing. I was just wondering what everyone's take on this was? Martello posted:However, A Clash of Kings is an awesome book. I doubt I can give it another go.
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Oct 21, 2012 08:41
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It's wish fulfilment for the reader, not the author, and it's a trend to get readers with increasingly short attention spans reading their books, as opposed to the dozens of other forms of entertainment that provide instant gratification, such as video games, sports, film, etc etc. Ignoring the obvious marketing benefits though, I wouldn't regard it so much as lazy as hazardous. The growth of their abilities could run parallel to the growth of the character, but if youve cut that option dead in the first act, where do you go from there? If anything you've made it MORE difficult for yourself as an author.
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Oct 21, 2012 09:47
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Plus if your protagonist can do that, why can't everyone else?
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Oct 21, 2012 10:02
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If a "Believe in yourself and unlock your hidden potential!" magic system is thematically suitable then swell. If it is lazy writing then the whole book, story, or whatever will probably stink of lazy writing anyway. Beyond that I think it just boils down to the values of the writers and readers which they will prefer(or, as hiddenmovement aptly noted, a more mercenary strategy). One approach emphasizes inborn traits and self-esteem while the other glorifies good old work ethic. I personally enjoy systems that permit both and allow for possible conflict between the two. It feels more realistic and potentially interesting. For any skill there will be both Mozarts and Salieris etc. squeegee posted:Yes, but dudes also need to get out of the mindset that breasts are inherently "sex parts." They're only sex parts in the sense that people who are sexually attracted to women are usually attracted to/aroused by breasts as an aspect of the female figure. They aren't inherently involved in the sexual act and don't serve an inherent sexual function. To a woman who isn't into other women, they're just these lumps on her chest that get in the way sometimes and that men are attracted to and that may or may not produce milk for her real or theoretical children. This is one of the silliest things I have read on these forums. CB_Tube_Knight seems to have a better idea despite not owning a pair and Martello, too. A character's relationship with himself or herself is partially related to the physical. I think it is as important a relationship to consider when defining a character as, say, how the character feels about parents and exes. That said, while breasts are not inherently sex toys, they absolutely are inherently sex parts. Like other external sexual signals, though, they do not exist just for prospective partners to check out. Women are notoriously fond of sizing each other up and judging one another from split ends to toenails and all things between. I've known women whose attitude toward their own breasts ranged everywhere from desperately insecure to insufferably smug to outright hostile, but even the ambivalent ones were still aware of others' breasts by comparison. There is no apparent correlation between attitude and size/shape, probably because these do not impact function from either an erogenous or lactation standpoint. Still, women engage in all sorts of weird social rituals involving breast assessment and comparison. Flesh lumps, indeed. Hell, I have known two women so attached to their breasts as aspects of their identities, their femininity, that they refused to consider mastectomies during cancer treatment. Hair loss? Bring it on. Hooter loss? Forget it. /boobssperg I'm still reading this thread, so forgive me if I am speaking out of turn, but I started sputtering when I read that post.
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Oct 21, 2012 10:10
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BarbarousBertha posted:
Wait...what? I mean, I agree with you that how a character feels about their own body will certainly inform their personality and how they respond to situations/the environment- but I think the argument was "why do men authors so often have their women characters creepily describe their breasts in a story for absolutely no reason?" I don't think anyone said that no women in a story should feel anything about their own bodies, but it's the old cliche of "show, don't tell." If a man or woman in a story feels particularly attached or proud of a certain part of his or her body, it's incredibly lazy to just introduce that character in front a mirror remarking on such. Rather, if it's so important, it should just be reflected in their behavior.
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Oct 21, 2012 16:48
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CB_Tube_Knight posted:Question to all of you: How do you feel about low work magic systems? I ask because I was listening to "I Should Be Writing" and Lou Anders was on talking about how there's a growing trend in the US where a character doesn't have to put any time studying or learning into their power, they just have to believe that they can do it or believe in themselves and it works. The thing that I enjoy about magic systems is their execution - both in how cleverly they're used in the story and the tone the author creates through magic. This has nothing to do with how structured the magic is. It's possible to write a story where a character's powers are inherent and they use their abilities in ingenious and interesting ways, or you you could write an overwrought academic system that's incredibly boring. Yeah, I'm against lazy writing, but I don't necessarily equate that with low-work magic. I guess the two extremes would be like Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell, where both main characters study throughout their lifetimes to gain their abilities, but the magic still feels "magical" and it's awesome, as opposed to Jojo's Bizarre Adventures where you either have a Stand or you don't, but survival depends on out-thinking other Stand users, and it's awesome. Crisco Kid fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Oct 21, 2012 |
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Oct 21, 2012 16:57
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CB_Tube_Knight posted:Question to all of you: How do you feel about low work magic systems? I ask because I was listening to "I Should Be Writing" and Lou Anders was on talking about how there's a growing trend in the US where a character doesn't have to put any time studying or learning into their power, they just have to believe that they can do it or believe in themselves and it works. Typically I prefer the supernatural be something wholly out of the protagonist's depth, wild and uncertain, an obstacle to be overcome rather than a tool to be used. On what occasions I do let my characters dabble in it, it's still something to be wary of, something you bargain with and can only hope nothing goes horribly wrong (or horribly right). Innate talent isn't necessarily a bad thing though, if it brings out the right things in the character possessing it. Someone who has everything go their way always is a boring character regardless of whether they solve problems with a snap of their fingers. Bad Seafood fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Oct 22, 2012 |
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Oct 21, 2012 17:46
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Molly Bloom posted:Currently, I'm working on a Native American character (it fits the area, I've had some contact with the area and the culture but not enough to be an expert). So I went exploring and started looking for NA opinions on white people writing Native characters after reading about 'RaceFail09'. On one hand, there's the fact that minority characters are vastly under-represented. On the other hand, what I've been finding suggests that creating a character that will meet with any approval is extremely difficult. Something else you could try: look at how other authors have done Native American characters, and then ask other people how those characters came across. I was thinking Tony Hillerman, and lo, others already beat me to the punch! To my mind, you can't go too far astray, if you endeavor to simply write a person as a person, and make it your mission to do right *by your characters.* I also find that writers sometimes go astray when they aren't able or willing to acknowledge their possible reasons for wanting to have a minority character in the first place, because it's those unconscious and conscious wishes, values, and intentions which can ultimately drive plot and characterization, for good or ill. So, when a writer introduces a character solely to prove a point, to be "cool," or to try to make themselves look or feel like "better" people through the character's inclusion, these token minority characters often end up being too implausibly saintly and perfect, too stereotypical, or too fuzzy and inconsistent. If the writer has some "baggage" around that minority group, then that may show up in the character or the plot, too. But, if you see and write your character as a person, and remain mindful of what intentions, hopes, biases, and beliefs you might have about that character, or that character's various traits and affiliations, your feet will be pointed towards the right path, at least. So! I hope that's helpful. As for the 'stereotypical' statue and suchlike, be aware that some people will want--understandably---to turn your story into a tract, and that this will tend to negatively affect the story itself, and turn readers off, rather than educate or enlighten them. I believe that your readers should learn to understand and empathize with your character--and, by extension, real people like your character, if that's your hope--primarily through your character's own thoughts, reactions, and interactions. So, if the statue is stereotypical, and your character knows it, your character might snort and roll her eyes, or crack a joke, or gripe to a friend, depending on his or her personality. Or, your character might have ambivalent or mixed feelings about his or her Native American heritage, and therefore have mixed, ambivalent, "inappropriate," or "politically incorrect" reactions to stereotypes and bigotry, and other characters might then react in various ways to that. That has the potential to become VERY interesting indeed, because there, our expectations and assumptions have probably been violated, and this will grab our attention, and drive us to learn more about that character. (Indeed, your character NEEDS to do some things wrong, and needs to have some flaws, or else he or she won't be believable! Believably flawed people are more interesting.) quote:I know women are 50% of the population and plenty writers are women, but as a woman there is nothing that makes me roll my eyes harder than a story written by a man where the female character thinks about or examines her breasts. "Today was looking up for Jim and his penis. Today's sure looking up for me and my penis, thought Jim, as he slid on his favorite pair of silk boxers--the Harley Davidson ones, with the red flames--and sighed as the fabric gently cradled the head of his penis. Yes, today was going to be a great day, for a regular guy and his regular--but still undeniably charming--penis." Tartarus Sauce fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Oct 21, 2012 |
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Oct 21, 2012 19:26
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^ I suddenly want to watch American Gigolo.Chillmatic posted:Wait...what? I am right with you. It just read to me like the conversation went from "showing through behavior or reactions of other characters is better" to "description is creepy because breasts are irrelevant to straight women unless they are leaking beep boop." I agree too that writers who obviously condescend to those not like them suck. My eyerolling tends to come when reading the way short authors describe how tall people relate to the world around them. It's looking like I overreacted to the specific topic though. Mea culpa and let's keep talking about how Magical Other characters are among the worst. Louise Erdrich is an author whose work is occasionally taught in Native American Lit courses. Her novels tend to be the sort you can zip through but yield a lot of meaty thematic stuff and subtle character development on a more careful reread. I would add her to Tony Hillerman as someone to check out since she writes characters from an array of backgrounds.
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Oct 21, 2012 21:52
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Cheers for pointers- I've been trawling through what I've got and ordering a few more things. Re: Louise Erdich- there's a funny little slapfight between her and Leslie Marmon Silko because the latter claims the former isn't politically concerned enough about Native issues. I guess nobody wins. I'm still letting things brew a little bit until I've got a better handle on her character. The podcast was pretty loving funny, though.
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Oct 21, 2012 22:26
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I remember reading Silko's evisceration of the Beet Queen years ago. It came across like literary Mean Girls. I get the strong feeling that they have some personal history, and also that Silko was too busy huffing righteously and composing zingers to properly read her copy of the book. It was kinda hilarious.
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Oct 21, 2012 23:56
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Re: Boobchat, I think a lot of people read fiction where there is excessive self breast examination. So it seems like the norm, especially when author's are writing in first person and aren't sure how to characterize their female character (or even let the reader know she's female in the first place). Incidentally, I just finished the book Kushiel's Dart, and while there were a few things to be desired, I really enjoyed the how sexuality was intertwined with the main character's personality. I won't say it's the BEST, but for modern high fantasy, it did a good job of not making me cringe.
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Oct 22, 2012 09:00
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Sitting Here posted:Re: Boobchat, I think a lot of people read fiction where there is excessive self breast examination. So it seems like the norm, especially when author's are writing in first person and aren't sure how to characterize their female character (or even let the reader know she's female in the first place). I read Meg Cabot's Ready or Not and there are a couple of scenes in there where the main character mentions her breasts. Mostly it's because her boyfriend stares at them when she wears a top she got from Nikey. But that's a good example of when mentioning breasts is a perfectly logical thing to do and it falls in line with characterization and story. Also sex scenes might have some mention of them there things. 
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Oct 22, 2012 09:34
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CB_Tube_Knight posted:Question to all of you: How do you feel about low work magic systems? I ask because I was listening to "I Should Be Writing" and Lou Anders was on talking about how there's a growing trend in the US where a character doesn't have to put any time studying or learning into their power, they just have to believe that they can do it or believe in themselves and it works. Approach it like every other aspect of world-building. By that I mean, think about how it works and makes sense, and how it affects other aspects of the world. Can anyone use those powers or only a limited set of people use them? Why? Are there any limits? What and Why? If you answer the questions and it makes logical sense then it shouldn't end up being a lot different than working with a more ordered system of magic. The Belgariad by David Eddings used a system like this, and that worked pretty well. He handled the super-power potential usually by saying that the heroes didn't want to use the power because doing anything really spectacular with it was "noisy" and the enemy spellcasters could "hear" it and use it to find them, send armies and other nasty things their way.
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Oct 24, 2012 22:56
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The new thread title owns.
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Oct 25, 2012 00:12
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Martello posted:The new thread title owns. I am going to choose to interpret it as the go ahead to keep talking about boobs. It's less that women don't like to read about boobs and more that the way they're described/presented is often eye-roll inducing. It can be really jarring if you have a book full of male characters who are only described in the vaguest sense, and then all of a sudden you have a very specific description of a very specific body part on a woman. Interestingly, in the book I mentioned above, Kushiel's Dart, there are plenty of sex scenes that don't even mention boobs specifically. Most of them don't go into detail at all, and when they do it's pretty much always relevant to the character or plot (I was actually expecting a much smuttier book). I thought that was neat.
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Oct 25, 2012 00:55
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Don't talk more about boobs.
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Oct 25, 2012 14:15
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Here's something I'm struggling with as a writer, most likely due to my preferences as a reader: http://www.scribophile.com/blog/keeping-the-purple-out-of-your-prose/ The article is about purple prose, and the author of the article gives an example of this, as well as two other examples of how it could be tightened up, so to speak. My issue with this (and perhaps it's just the example being used) is that I find the first example much more interesting, and it painted an image in my mind that was much more detailed than that of the succinct example. Also, "The key is that readers care about content, plot, and emotion, not description." does not ring true with me. I love description, and a paragraph or two at the beginning of a chapter that paints a vivid landscape or interior really helps my mind's eye to visualize the scene. Furthermore, "and fiercely agitating the scanty flame of the lamps that struggled against the darkness." was a key part of this in my imagination, and it was stricken entirely from the "better" method. The author then goes on to speak about using big "SAT" words, and while he does speak about using them in moderation, I for one love reading a book, coming across a word I've never seen, trying to determine what it means based on context, and following this up with a quick search in an online dictionary. In addition to experiencing a (hopefully) wonderful story, I feel a certain sense of satisfaction if I come away from a book with half a dozen new words in my vocabulary. The point of this long rant is to determine if I just have strange/uncommon tastes in writing methods. I've read a ton of material on suggested practices for writing, and this is the only one that has been really hard to adopt.
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Nov 2, 2012 04:03
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Subway Ninja posted:The author then goes on to speak about using big "SAT" words, and while he does speak about using them in moderation, I for one love reading a book, coming across a word I've never seen, trying to determine what it means based on context, and following this up with a quick search in an online dictionary. In addition to experiencing a (hopefully) wonderful story, I feel a certain sense of satisfaction if I come away from a book with half a dozen new words in my vocabulary. This basically just means that you shouldn't use words you don't really understand or deliberately use an obscure word where a common one will do. If you have a large vocabulary and use words correctly and appropriately, that's fine. The mistake people make is in going through their writing with a thesaurus to try to make it sound less boring or more intelligent. It won't work. If you do that you just sound dumb and often don't even make sense.
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Nov 2, 2012 04:48
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Tiggum posted:This basically just means that you shouldn't use words you don't really understand or deliberately use an obscure word where a common one will do. If you have a large vocabulary and use words correctly and appropriately, that's fine. The mistake people make is in going through their writing with a thesaurus to try to make it sound less boring or more intelligent. It won't work. If you do that you just sound dumb and often don't even make sense. Ah, so what the author meant was more along the lines of "Use the best word rather than trying to shoehorn in a word just because..." That makes plenty of sense, I guess I misinterpreted that part.
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Nov 2, 2012 05:06
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Subway Ninja posted:Here's something I'm struggling with as a writer, most likely due to my preferences as a reader: The guy basically used a piss-poor example to subvert his own point. Distilling that whole passage to "It was a dark and stormy night," which has become a cliche for bad writing, is not how you go about improving it. Replacing purple prose with a bland cliche (and to give Bulworth Lytton credit, he owns that cliche) would have George Orwell rolling in his grave. Go read the Orwell and Twain advice I linked in the OP, and you'll see this guy's point better made. 
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Nov 2, 2012 07:40
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Subway Ninja posted:Ah, so what the author meant was more along the lines of "Use the best word rather than trying to shoehorn in a word just because..." That makes plenty of sense, I guess I misinterpreted that part. And that even though words are synonyms they might not mean the exact same thing. The thesaurus might say big and brimming are synonyms but having a brimming foot doesn't make sense unless it's really infected or something.
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Nov 2, 2012 20:08
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Here's the deal. I'm not a writer, I don't think I'm a writer, I'm under no illusions that I have any semblance of talent or technique. With that said, I remember I used to enjoy creative writing a lot when I was in middle school and high school and, until I discovered I could get girls to like me by playing guitar, writing was my favorite hobby. Obviously this totally fell by the wayside in a big way, but I never really forgot how much fun it used to be. Recently my little brother discovered a bunch of my old short stories that I wrote way back then and he told me that he really enjoyed them. Do note that these stories were not at all good and I am not good at writing them, I can objectively say that after having re-read one that he sent me. I was actually pretty embarrassed at how lame and cheesy it was. I decided though that instead of just pointing out all the things I hated about it that I would nut up and put my money where my mouth is and actually try to write some stuff that wasn't terrible. So for the last couple of weeks I've been trying to feed the little guy a chapter a week to see if I can shake off the rust and actually improve my writing skills from a technical standpoint. So far I already feel like I'm starting to have a lot of fun doing it again, and I also feel like a little self awareness will go a long way to actually helping me develop as a writer. So the question is, where should I post my stupid brain spew where I can get some constructive (or destructive, what do I care?)criticism from people who don't mind humoring an absolute novice so that I can make some progress toward being a half-decent story teller? e: Heard and double heard. I read the OP but I guess my brain didn't register that bit. Novum fucked around with this message at 11:32 on Nov 4, 2012 |
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Nov 4, 2012 09:43
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Novum posted:Here's the deal. I'm not a writer, I don't think I'm a writer, I'm under no illusions that I have any semblance of talent or technique. With that said, I remember I used to enjoy creative writing a lot when I was in middle school and high school and, until I discovered I could get girls to like me by playing guitar, writing was my favorite hobby. Obviously this totally fell by the wayside in a big way, but I never really forgot how much fun it used to be. Recently my little brother discovered a bunch of my old short stories that I wrote way back then and he told me that he really enjoyed them. Do note that these stories were not at all good and I am not good at writing them, I can objectively say that after having re-read one that he sent me. I was actually pretty embarrassed at how lame and cheesy it was. I decided though that instead of just pointing out all the things I hated about it that I would nut up and put my money where my mouth is and actually try to write some stuff that wasn't terrible. So for the last couple of weeks I've been trying to feed the little guy a chapter a week to see if I can shake off the rust and actually improve my writing skills from a technical standpoint. So far I already feel like I'm starting to have a lot of fun doing it again, and I also feel like a little self awareness will go a long way to actually helping me develop as a writer. So the question is, where should I post my stupid brain spew where I can get some constructive (or destructive, what do I care?)criticism from people who don't mind humoring an absolute novice so that I can make some progress toward being a half-decent story teller? Stuporstar posted:Don't post your fiction here, aside from ~100 word snippets, given for context only. That's what the Daily Writing Thread is for.
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Nov 4, 2012 11:08
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For the first time in 15 years I had the urge to be creative, so I've written a story that I would like to get a critique on. The problem is that to make sure I actually started and completed it I chose a theme that's fairly natural to me. Is there somewhere on these forums I could post a short story that ends in erotic fiction?
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Nov 4, 2012 16:25
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Novum posted:
How about you do some reading and study up on the craft of writing before you subject the internet to your "stupid brain stew"? And for gently caress's sake, don't be the guy who says "what do I care about the kind of feedback I get" when you clearly loving do care. Also, please don't do the whole passive-aggressive shitshow thing where you post a bunch of crap about how worthless and terrible you are while secretly hoping everyone will tell you that no, in fact, you're actually a genius! You want some more self-awareness? Fine. Start with the stuff I just told you and am about to tell you. The poo poo you just posted here is really some of the most aggravating crap that a critique group can ever have to deal with, and you won't make any friends doing stuff like that. So consider this the only advice you need right now: don't be a whiny self-deprecating little poo poo, don't put a bunch of stupid irrelevant details in your posts (like your dumbass guitar playing), and don't post terrible poo poo until you've spent a minimum of three months reading about the craft of writing and doing writing exercises in your spare time. And finally, if your writing looks anything like that post you made, you've got a lot of very immediate and obvious flaws. 1. You drone on with pointless details. (because you obviously love the sound of your own voice) 2. Your use of language vacillates between "low style" and "grotesque imitation of the high style" (because you obviously love the sound of your own voice) 3. You're the only one that loves the sound of your own voice. Might want to consider that your anonymous reader won't give a poo poo about how brilliant you think you are. Cut away the fat; get to the heart of the matter. 4. Don't post again for a long time. Same goes for you, Soulless Body. If you people can't even be bothered to read the thread to figure out where your anime dickgirl crap should go, then nobody here is going to waste the time helping or critiquing you.
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Nov 4, 2012 17:52
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Novum posted:Here's the deal. I'm not a writer, I don't think I'm a writer, I'm under no illusions that I have any semblance of talent or technique. With that said, I remember I used to enjoy creative writing a lot when I was in middle school and high school and, until I discovered I could get girls to like me by playing guitar, writing was my favorite hobby. Obviously this totally fell by the wayside in a big way, but I never really forgot how much fun it used to be. Creative Convention: We Hate You and We Want You to loving Die Just write something, make it as good as you can make it, then post it. Under 500 words in the short fiction thread, longer pieces in their own thread. Alternatively, the Thunderdome is a fantastic way to get your flash fiction chops up - weekly prompts, praise for the winner, humiliating avatars for the loser. Check out this thread for an example of truly terrible writing and what sort of response it gets. And, if you aren't better than him, don't post. sebmojo fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Nov 4, 2012 |
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Nov 4, 2012 21:22
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sebmojo posted:Creative Convention: We Hate You and We Want You to loving Die Yikes, no kidding. I'll step back for now and just keep doing writing exercises on my own like I've been doing so far.
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Nov 5, 2012 00:43
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Novum posted:Yikes, no kidding. I'll step back for now and just keep doing writing exercises on my own like I've been doing so far. F'real, post in Thunderdome. Week XIII just closed to submissions, but XIV will be opening sometime tomorrow. We're pretty brutal there but if you suck balls and don't know how to write we'll just tell you that instead of telling you to  right away. Don't wait, just post a story in there. The worst that can happen is you get a really awesome avatar.  However, dude, Chillmatic is right - your first post made you look like a giant douche. If you can try again by just posting something in Fiction Farm or Thunderdome or whatever, and check your self-deprecating bullshit at the door, you'll get some serious feedback. Just make sure your story isn't absolute literary poo poo, like sebmojo said. Soulless Body, post something erotic in Thunderdome. See what happens. 
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Nov 5, 2012 03:59
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Novum posted:Yikes, no kidding. I'll step back for now and just keep doing writing exercises on my own like I've been doing so far. Your call. Have a read of some of the other threads and see if you think you are better/worse - you can get some really good advice here. At least read the Thunderdome thread and consider doing a week there like Martello suggests. I've found it fantastic for improving my writing. PM me or email me at jimbowardo at gmail with one of your pieces, if you want an impartial opinion on how it measures up. sebmojo fucked around with this message at 04:09 on Nov 5, 2012 |
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Nov 5, 2012 04:03
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