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MassRayPer posted:He's not Steve Austin, he's not Hulk Hogan and he's not the Rock. But he's well above Bret Hart, HBK or any other American star in the PPV era. That is a huge statement, he's the fourth biggest star of the last three decades. I won't disagree with that, but he's also received a way longer, more sustained push than ANYONE else in the modern era by a long shot. Hogan is the only guy who comes close and even he didn't feel as overexposed as Cena because at least he hosed off from time to time and didn't wrestle on every show. Relative to the push, Cena is the absolute worst main eventer ever. By virtue of staying uninjured for most of his run, being a corporate suckass and being a gross amalgamation of whatever the marketing team thinks will sell merchandise this week, Cena has stayed on top - not because of his ability to draw. quote:If business kept declining in the last year I'd feel a lot differently, but things have improved in certain ways and Cena has been a part of that. I still believe that super babyface Cena is the death of wrestling, and ratings only pick up when people think there's a chance of him being beaten - the Edge and Punk feuds for example. He's the type of guy who will draw huge if he's against a guy the crowd want to see win (e.g. the Rock match), but is a massive turnoff when playing the role that they're booking him to play. Everyone in the WWE is literally fighting for Cena's title. The championship belt is John Cena's personalised custom title and has been for so long now that we've just come to take it for granted, and it really emphasises that nobody else in the company is worth poo poo compared to Cena. He's the kid-friendly F-U to the post-adolescent audience still grimly hanging on in hopes of an Attitude resurgence, or at least a main eventer who's character is an actual badass instead of some goofy jacked-up jorts-wearing doofus who laughs at serious promos and unironically uses the word "poopy". Sure he's charismatic, but he's got the charisma of that idiot kid we all went to school with who would get mocked endlessly but try to turn it into a running joke, as if by making fun of himself he'd get everybody to laugh with him instead of at him.
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Nov 12, 2012 22:58
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Saul Goode posted:I won't disagree with that, but he's also received a way longer, more sustained push than ANYONE else in the modern era by a long shot. Hogan is the only guy who comes close and even he didn't feel as overexposed as Cena because at least he hosed off from time to time and didn't wrestle on every show. Relative to the push, Cena is the absolute worst main eventer ever. By virtue of staying uninjured for most of his run, being a corporate suckass and being a gross amalgamation of whatever the marketing team thinks will sell merchandise this week, Cena has stayed on top - not because of his ability to draw. You are just the cutest little smark with all of your assumptions not based on any facts.
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Nov 12, 2012 23:00
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I just can't get that worked up over Cena anymore. In 2005, sure, but now? I can't even remember the last time the guy held the title. Not that that means a lot, but still. Anyway, WCW sure was great wasn't it?
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Nov 12, 2012 23:01
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Paper Jam Dipper posted:You are just the cutest little smark with all of your assumptions not based on any facts. Weren't you the poster defending George Lucas, the Vince Russo of the entertainment industry, in the Star Wars thread?
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Nov 12, 2012 23:03
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Saul Goode posted:By virtue of staying uninjured for most of his run, being a corporate suckass and being a gross amalgamation of whatever the marketing team thinks will sell merchandise this week, Cena has stayed on top - not because of his ability to draw. Buyrates shot up when he became champ and stayed up for awhile. Smackdown PPVs were doing horrid, add Cena to one in a tag match to end the brand split on PPV? Big increase. Raw house shows do better than Smackdown and do suffer a bit when Cena is gone. His WM buyrates speak for themselves. He's not a perfect draw and for the amount of focus put on him you'd think house shows would be better, ratings would be better, and PPV would be better, but at the same time it's hard to blame him because he's still the best they have in those categories. Last year I agreed it looked like Cena was doing really badly in terms of ratings and Punk might be the new thing, but he's clearly not and Cena has clearly shown he moves numbers in a way Punk can't. Both are dealing with the same variables too. You can't just say creative stifled Punk, Cena is under the same creative team so that's a wash. In the end WWE is an incredibly profitable money making machine and the heart of that machine is John Cena. He's in the 8th year of his main event run and things could be a lot better, but they are better than when Hogan was in the 8th year of his main event run in WWE. Austin didn't make it to 8, nor did Rock.
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Nov 12, 2012 23:10
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MassRayPer posted:
I don't pay as much attention to the WWE's financials as you or many other people on here, but I thought that outside of WrestleMania their business had declind to the point where they'd potentially be in a very precarious position of their proposed network launched and failed, unlike previous expensive failures like the WBF and the XFL which they were able to swallow more easily due to being healthier at the time?
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Nov 12, 2012 23:27
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Thauros posted:I don't pay as much attention to the WWE's financials as you or many other people on here, but I thought that outside of WrestleMania their business had declind to the point where they'd potentially be in a very precarious position of their proposed network launched and failed, unlike previous expensive failures like the WBF and the XFL which they were able to swallow more easily due to being healthier at the time? If that were true and they were in that precarious a situation then they were doubly stupid to let Linda run a second time.
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Nov 12, 2012 23:36
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Saul Goode posted:Weren't you the poster defending George Lucas, the Vince Russo of the entertainment industry, in the Star Wars thread? This is an odd comparison. George Lucas made money. Anyhow, I view Cena as basically being sort of a port in a storm. WWE was cooling before he became their big star, and the problem really is that he's reliable enough that they don't want to take the hit that would come with actually having him step back for a new generation. With Hogan they basically had little choice because WCW offered him a lot of money and the company was starting to get kinda sick of him throwing his weight around, and of course even then they spent a few years in the wilderness. Cena apparently is not flexing any creative control muscle, and there's nobody offering him huge amounts of money to leave (and he's a loyal company man anyway), so the only way he'll stop being their top guy is if they make the active choice for him not to be, and that's a short term loss without a guarantee of long term gain. Maxwell Lord fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Nov 13, 2012 |
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Nov 12, 2012 23:53
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Thauros posted:I don't pay as much attention to the WWE's financials as you or many other people on here, but I thought that outside of WrestleMania their business had declind to the point where they'd potentially be in a very precarious position of their proposed network launched and failed, unlike previous expensive failures like the WBF and the XFL which they were able to swallow more easily due to being healthier at the time? Last year PPV was looking grim. They had declined year after year and even MiTB didn't do as well as people hoped. They posted a losing quarter due to network costs which looked bad too. House shows and PPVs, the former lifeblood of pro wrestling were weak. However, it was pretty obvious WWE could go on for years on TV rights fees and licensing as long as the network wasn't a long term money loser (meaning it either broke even or they cut the cord before too long.) This year house shows have been sort of up (they've done better gates but fewer Smackdown shows) and PPV has been up. Some of that is Rock and Lesnar, some of that is last year being so bad you'd have to be up, and some of it is just smoke and mirrors, but they are up. Where they are genuinely up it's hard not to credit Cena, because his stuff with Johnny Ace did WAY better than anyone expected.
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Nov 13, 2012 00:15
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Maxwell Lord posted:This is an odd comparison. George Lucas made money. They both made money and are best known for what they did when their creative efforts were working with other people. They then convince themselves/those around them that they are the sole creative genius behind the Attitude Era/original Star Wars. They are then exposed when they work by themselves with no one working with them/questioning their decisions, as seen with the prequels/everything else Vince Russo has booked. It's a little too close, really.
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Nov 13, 2012 00:19
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coconono posted:I wanna know just how much Russo was involved in getting the world title onto Booker T. I think that was his real lasting contribution to WCW. Wasn't Booker T's first World Title win an impromptu match against Jeff Jarrett?
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Nov 13, 2012 00:32
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Big Coffin Hunter posted:They both made money and are best known for what they did when their creative efforts were working with other people. They then convince themselves/those around them that they are the sole creative genius behind the Attitude Era/original Star Wars. They are then exposed when they work by themselves with no one working with them/questioning their decisions, as seen with the prequels/everything else Vince Russo has booked. Except the prequels also were commercial successes. It's not like Lucas went bankrupt when he "struck out on his own".
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Nov 13, 2012 00:36
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Maxwell Lord posted:Except the prequels also were commercial successes. It's not like Lucas went bankrupt when he "struck out on his own". Well, that's basically the only major difference. Creatively they are very similar, business wise Lucas is actually competent. Big Coffin Hunter fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Nov 13, 2012 |
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Nov 13, 2012 00:39
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Maxwell Lord posted:Except the prequels also were commercial successes. It's not like Lucas went bankrupt when he "struck out on his own". 13 years after its original theatrical release, the 3D re-release of the Phantom Menace pulled in less money than the Three Stooges movie and is currently 64th on this year's box office list. It made bank in 1999 because it was Star Wars, not because it was good. Big Coffin Hunter posted:They both made money and are best known for what they did when their creative efforts were working with other people. They then convince themselves/those around them that they are the sole creative genius behind the Attitude Era/original Star Wars. They are then exposed when they work by themselves with no one working with them/questioning their decisions, as seen with the prequels/everything else Vince Russo has booked. This, exactly this.
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Nov 13, 2012 00:53
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cb170fVPlrI I always thought that was one of the better Sting matches, against a young Muta. Muta really bumps and sells well for him.
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Nov 13, 2012 01:43
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Saul Goode posted:13 years after its original theatrical release, the 3D re-release of the Phantom Menace pulled in less money than the Three Stooges movie and is currently 64th on this year's box office list. It made bank in 1999 because it was Star Wars, not because it was good. Bad comparison. Lucasfilm has been consistently successful and the 3D release was a dip in the radar. If Lucas really was the equivalent of Russo Disney wouldn't be trying to make a new movie.
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Nov 13, 2012 04:49
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SirPhoebos posted:Bad comparison. Lucasfilm has been consistently successful and the 3D release was a dip in the radar. If Lucas really was the equivalent of Russo Disney wouldn't be trying to make a new movie. It looks like the Phantom Menace 3D release did better than some Pixar re-release as well. 40 Million for a 3D re-release of a movie that has horrible word of mouth doesn't seem like a bad box office... unless they spent like, 50 million on the transfer. I'm amazed Cena is the one who has generated the discussion, especially since it was one paragraph that summed up Cena's case. I really doubt Dave thinks Cena would be a cultural icon if wrestling were just more popular, but if he came at a different time, he would be an even bigger deal. Part of why he's not a bigger deal is because he wasn't able to create that kind of interest, but Austin didn't create the 90s boom, and wrestling was hot in the 80s before Hogan kicked off the explosion.
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Nov 13, 2012 05:01
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It will be interesting to read his bio, and that's when Dave really has to try and quantify what makes him a HOFer. It'll be interesting to see how many current wrestlers voted him in.
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Nov 13, 2012 05:09
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SirPhoebos posted:Bad comparison. Lucasfilm has been consistently successful and the 3D release was a dip in the radar. If Lucas really was the equivalent of Russo Disney wouldn't be trying to make a new movie. This was posted a few hours ago in the Star Wars meets Disney thread: Zonekeeper posted:We don't really have a way to know how involved he'll be. Lucas is a great ideas guy, you just need to filter his ideas through good writers and be able to tell him when something he came up with won't work. Those things along with having a good editor and letting the actors add their own flair to the characters are what made the originals so good. The prequels sucked because none of these factors were present aside from Ian McDiarmid chewing scenery like a champ in RotS. But yeah, you're right, I'm sure if Lucas was the equivalent of Russo he'd have like a New Jersey accent or something. MYTH BUSTED! MassRayPer posted:I really doubt Dave thinks Cena would be a cultural icon if wrestling were just more popular That is literally what he said.
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Nov 13, 2012 05:16
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Saul Goode posted:
Yes, there couldn't be any additional nuance to a person's opinion than a single sentence in a post about a different wrestler on a message board.
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Nov 13, 2012 05:26
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e:^^^quote:To me, Cena is not Austin, Rock, Hulk Hogan or Bruno Sammartino. As a wrestler, he's not Bret Hart or Shawn Michaels, but as far as business goes, he's the step up from the latter and a step below the former. LordPants posted:It will be interesting to read his bio, and that's when Dave really has to try and quantify what makes him a HOFer. It'll be interesting to see how many current wrestlers voted him in. 71% of the ballots (3rd) Active Wrestlers (6th) 2nd among guys who got in. Retired (not top ten) Reporters (2nd) 2nd among guys who got in. Historians (6th) 4th among guys who got in. UltimoDragonQuest fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Nov 13, 2012 |
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Nov 13, 2012 05:29
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Saul Goode posted:But yeah, you're right, I'm sure if Lucas was the equivalent of Russo he'd have like a New Jersey accent or something. MYTH BUSTED! Let's just stop talking about Star Wars in a Puchsport Pagoda thread, unless there is suddenly a Star Wars themed wrestler. Wait: Vader 
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Nov 13, 2012 06:52
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SirPhoebos posted:Let's just stop talking about Star Wars in a Puchsport Pagoda thread, unless there is suddenly a Star Wars themed wrestler. Vader isn't a sith, he's a Big Van.
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Nov 13, 2012 06:54
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SirPhoebos posted:Let's just stop talking about Star Wars in a Puchsport Pagoda thread, unless there is suddenly a Star Wars themed wrestler. 
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Nov 13, 2012 06:55
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Nov 13, 2012 07:13
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Don't start from the assumption WCW didn't do something, you will be proven wrong.
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Nov 13, 2012 07:47
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That Sting video made me realise that Sting has been Crow Sting now longer than he was Surfer Sting. He should go back to Surfer Sting, really.
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Nov 13, 2012 10:34
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That match is infamous as Jim goes for a fall. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGGjcmpFekc bobkatt013 fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Nov 13, 2012 |
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Nov 13, 2012 15:22
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00SZ3HP6Qok If anyone hasn't seen Jim's telling of it. (Cornette's Dusty impression is always amazing.)
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Nov 13, 2012 15:30
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MrBling posted:That Sting video made me realise that Sting has been Crow Sting now longer than he was Surfer Sting. He went to Joker Sting.
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Nov 13, 2012 15:52
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bartok posted:Wasn't Booker T's first World Title win an impromptu match against Jeff Jarrett? Yup but I still have my doubts on how much of that was kayfaybe/worked shoot poo poo or what.
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Nov 13, 2012 19:14
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coconono posted:Yup but I still have my doubts on how much of that was kayfaybe/worked shoot poo poo or what. All of it. It came out in the court documents, not that it was already obvious. Russo just went too far with what he actually said about Hogan.
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Nov 13, 2012 19:17
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MrBling posted:That Sting video made me realise that Sting has been Crow Sting now longer than he was Surfer Sting.
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Nov 13, 2012 23:58
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MassRayPer posted:All of it. It came out in the court documents, not that it was already obvious. Russo just went too far with what he actually said about Hogan. Wasn't Hogan's biggest gripe that Russo called him bald? I know it's been a major no-no for years to even suggest that his hairline is receding. I wonder if that came up in court. I would love to see Hogan's reaction to the judge telling him "It's not slander if it's true, look in the mirror"
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Nov 14, 2012 00:05
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Pope Corky the IX posted:Wasn't Hogan's biggest gripe that Russo called him bald? I know it's been a major no-no for years to even suggest that his hairline is receding. Yeah. "Bald son of a bitch" was the straw that broke the camel's back
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Nov 14, 2012 00:45
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That always bugged me because Hogan was fine wearing obvious fake hair for an early nWo story.
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Nov 14, 2012 01:15
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Oatgan posted:Yeah. "Bald son of a bitch" was the straw that broke the camel's back And now a straw can literally break his back
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Nov 14, 2012 01:40
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WCW WINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All quotes from the September 18th 1995 Observer. quote:WCW Nitro in the first head to head meeting drew a 2.5 rating and 3.8 share as opposed to Titan's Monday Night Raw doing a 2.2 rating and a 3.2 share. The number of people watching wrestling during that one hour time slot was the largest for any one hour segment since the Hogan-Flair match at the Clash last year and largest for any Monday night in years. The Nitro replay did an 0.9 rating. quote:Shawn Michaels vs. Sid was about as good a match as you'll see Sid in but it was **1/2 tops. quote:The Hulk Hogan-Lex Luger "Match of the Century" turned out to be a * match with a beyond bad finish and a post-match angle that was the epitome of a skit that didn't work. quote:WCW, on the other hand, had Eric Bischoff knock the WWF for a continual hour gloating about Luger coming out of the bush leagues to play with the big boys and saying he won't be the last one, several mentions that just nine days ago Luger was in the WWF, having Steve McMichael say don't turn the channel and watch a show named after an uncooked egg, changing Mike Rotunda's name to V.K. Wallstreet (V.K. being short for Vincent K.). Bischoff even went so far as to tell viewers not to channel surf because the other show was taped two weeks ago and Shawn Michaels beat "the big guy" with a superkick that he wouldn't be able to get a green belt with at a corner karate studio. When Luger was in trouble during the Hogan match, Bischoff said that Luger was rusty because he hadn't been facing tough competition noting that their world champion was barely a mid-level guy here. But who teaches at that studio? quote:The WWF had stronger announcing, but that was by default because the WCW trio is among the worst ever. Steve McMichael was actually worse the second week because he's still clueless and has nothing to add and no name value. He clearly doesn't know any of the wrestlers except the guys like Hogan, Sting, Flair and Savage who are already names and thus don't need announcers' help to get over. Even though Sabu tried to commit suicide, the announcers were so bad his debut had no impact at all. Bischoff tried to call moves in the Sabu match, and called most of them wrong. I guess the fact he at least tried is an example that he's more motivated to learn than McMahon which means if McMahon doesn't get with it, Bischoff will pass him by as an announcer. Still, with Bischoff, a somersault plancha became a moonsault and a clothesline off the top to the floor and through a table became an Arabian press. At one point when Sabu nearly killed himself taking a bump on concrete, instead of selling the injury, Bobby Heenan started telling jokes, which completely ruined Sabu's efforts. quote:Hogan, Savage and Sting then destroyed the heels in all of 30 seconds, making me want to see the War Games really bad, while Luger did nothing, still selling the devastating legdrop. quote:It appears the deal to bring Lanny Poffo in doing a Gorgeous George gimmick is dead. quote:Disco Inferno appears to be getting a big push while there is no hype for Guerrero, Benoit or Malenko. Judging from the Sabu situation, it appears these guys are being brought in to alleviate criticism of poor PPV and house shows, but there appears to be no intent to actually push any of them or give them a chance to headline. quote:They did a taping on 9/7 in Dalton, GA. I don't have much in the way of details other than Kevin Sullivan brought in a new heel called The Man of Question from the Isle of Nowhere who I believe is Bill DeMott (Crash the Terminator), which is a basic ripoff of a Paul Heyman idea from about two years ago where he was going to use DeMott a "The Man With No Name," (a character whose basic concept was later given to Al Poling and became 911) but they already blew using that name by giving it to Ed Leslie for about two weeks. quote:On television this past weekend, we got two different Cobra/Craig Pittman stories, which now makes three. The original story, which never made it to the air, was that Pittman left him in Viet Nam. The time frame ruined that one since Viet Nam ended 23 years ago. This past weekend, the announcers said Pittman left him at Desert Storm, while Cobra said it was in the jungle.
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Nov 15, 2012 00:02
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Hey, there's the closure to the Cobra/Pittman story we were discussing a couple of weeks back!
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Nov 15, 2012 04:29
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They should have compromised and said Grenada.
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Nov 15, 2012 05:16
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