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With the renewed frenzy about Star Wars, I felt need to read a star wars book. I found the first book of the Thrawn trilogy and started reading. At the end of the first chapter, I was annoyed. Apparently this Thrawn guy is really awesome, he's edgy and he's got an art room and these edgy cool assassins and he's just so wonderful! But fine, I can deal with a Mary Sue, let's move on. I made it only a few pages and then stopped in disgust. These fanfiction writers try so hard to use the existing world and its references, to the point where it gets annoying. Made up names that I either can't remember for more than 2 seconds or pronounce. Keeping our world as far away from that world as possible. And that's why I was, I think, for the first time in my life, pissed off by hot chocolate.
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Nov 14, 2012 15:22
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Ledenko posted:With the renewed frenzy about Star Wars, I felt need to read a star wars book. I found the first book of the Thrawn trilogy and started reading. Honestly? Keep going. And Thrawn is not a Mary Sue by any stretch of the imagination.
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Nov 14, 2012 15:34
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Seriously. Keep reading. The books were written before the internet got seriously flooded by really bad people who couldn't write and just did the whole self insert thing. Why didn't they just stick to Latin and disturbing/scary simple terms in English? the whole Darth thing at the start is incredibly cheesy too.
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Nov 14, 2012 16:47
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Thrawn isn't a "Mary Sue" in that he isn't an author insert but he is really clearly one of those kind of characters who the author loves. His 'tactical' abilities are basically magical and there's a lot of scenes dedicated just to going "look how cool Thrawn is." I think he's looked more fondly on than he would be otherwise because he was really early and because he's something better executed than most. He's still better than most EU villains but that is because the EU is filled to the brim with absolutely poo poo villains whereas Thrawn at least has an actual personality.
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Nov 14, 2012 17:02
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I don't remember the Thrawn books very well but wasn't one of his tactical genius moves based on making sweeping racial generalizations about the opposing pilot.
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Nov 14, 2012 17:15
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Ledenko posted:With the renewed frenzy about Star Wars, I felt need to read a star wars book. I found the first book of the Thrawn trilogy and started reading. I'm curious about this part of your statement. Do you mind elaborating on it? EDIT: I thought the hot chocolate part was dumb too, but that's pretty much the only time in the trilogy that I wasn't happy about something. Granted I haven't reread the trilogy in years.
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Nov 14, 2012 17:23
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Thrawn seemed more about out-psyching the opponent.
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Nov 14, 2012 17:23
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euphronius posted:I don't remember the Thrawn books very well but wasn't one of his tactical genius moves based on making sweeping racial generalizations about the opposing pilot. That was his special skill. He could study a race's artwork and then somehow figure out entirely how they would react. Sometimes it sort of made sense. ("This is Ackbar's arwork, it gives me analysis into his mind") and sometimes it was just plot magic.
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Nov 14, 2012 17:24
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ImpAtom posted:That was his special skill. He could study a race's artwork and then somehow figure out entirely how they would react. It makes sense on a strategic level as well. Think of it as Hari Seldon deriving his conclusions from art instead of math. I remember Thrawn as being a cold, calculating military genius with the art aspect just adding flavor. He actually seemed like a threat to the galaxy despite not being a Force user. I appreciated that he actually took the Force into consideration in his strategy.
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Nov 14, 2012 17:40
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The one big one  was that he figured the Sluissi had a semi-annual biological cycle thing going on and could be counted upon to react significantly slower at the time he was launching the shipyards attack. Or he had psychological traps (this isn't terribly uncommon between two opposing forces of way different cultures, but usually occurs at a strategic rather than tactical level).Past the first book that usually got thrown out there with variations like "ok I'm going to use this because your commander isn't terribly imaginative oh whoops that may not work so I'm gonna do this instead". The real reason Thrawn's not your typical self-insert wish-fulfillment character is that he eventually gets owned with a blindness of his own.
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Nov 14, 2012 18:19
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Ledenko posted:And that's why I was, I think, for the first time in my life, pissed off by hot chocolate. How about a nice hot cup of caff then?
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Nov 14, 2012 18:42
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Much of Thrawn's strategic success also came from listening devices hidden all over the capital building on Coruscant.
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Nov 14, 2012 18:44
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SeanBeansShako posted:Seriously. Keep reading. Agreed. Heir to the Empire takes a little time to get up to speed, and Zahn does have a few peculiar "authorisms" that keep intruding (take a drink every time a character responds with the word "point"). But overall, the man wrote a really fun story, one that feels like Star Wars.
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Nov 14, 2012 19:06
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Metal Loaf posted:They've done that one already, after a fashion; Darth Andeddu turned out to be a zombie in Legacy. Actually, speaking of Legacy, they certainly ran out of Darth names pretty quickly, didn't they? I know... I linked to the Penny-Arcade strip dealing specifically with him (or at least it was made because of him) in the Lets Read thread. The PATV episode has them actually pulling up the audio book to show how stupid it is, and the strip is about "Darth Backstabbius" saying "I'm totally trustworth" in the fake book.
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Nov 14, 2012 19:26
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Calax posted:I know... I linked to the Penny-Arcade strip dealing specifically with him (or at least it was made because of him) in the Lets Read thread. The PATV episode has them actually pulling up the audio book to show how stupid it is, and the strip is about "Darth Backstabbius" saying "I'm totally trustworth" in the fake book. And on the other hand Penny Arcade jerk themselves off over The Old Republic, which has such incredibly subtle Sith names as Darth Atroph, Darth Kallous, Darth Enraj, Darth Vilous, and Darth Vacuus.
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Nov 14, 2012 19:36
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Chairman Capone posted:And on the other hand Penny Arcade jerk themselves off over The Old Republic, which has such incredibly subtle Sith names as Darth Atroph, Darth Kallous, Darth Enraj, Darth Vilous, and Darth Vacuus. At least they sound generic, not eye rollingly 'what the gently caress are you serious?' cheesy.
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Nov 14, 2012 19:37
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I think Darth Kallous and Darth Enraj are pretty eye-rolling.
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Nov 14, 2012 19:47
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Chairman Capone posted:I think Darth Kallous and Darth Enraj are pretty eye-rolling. If it helps, I just read them pronounced differently so they don't so sound 'Heh, check out this hidden meaning I'm such a clever writer!' Darth EHN-RAH-JAH sounds cooler.
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Nov 14, 2012 19:51
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Epi Lepi posted:I'm curious about this part of your statement. Do you mind elaborating on it? I can try - mind you, I'm no master literary critic. In the first chapter alone, I was presented a bunch of alien names, for art, culture, species and even a tactical maneuver - all to establish Thrawn knows his art and tactics, but to me it seems like a not very creative way of establishing the facts. Ender's game convinced me the kid is a tactical genius through his actions, Card didn't just say he knows Queg'bloop and left it at that. The battle in the first book was won by Thrawn through words+words+action+words=outcome. I think what I'm trying to say is I don't find creativity in establishing facts through stating made up names that mean absolutely nothing to me as the reader. And then throw hot chocolate at me! A similar yet totally opposite thing bothered me in some of Clarke's books I read - the guy loves to reference past events, but no matter when in the future the book takes place, everyone is an expert on the events from the period before and around when the book was written, but it's like nothing happened in between. In Odyssey 3001, I can only remember a pope that was not from "our" history, but instead the future. You can argue that it makes sense, but it ruins my immersion. And I remembered penny arcade made a point similar to mine: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/7/23/ And everyone, thanks, I'll be sure to give it another go.
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Nov 14, 2012 20:49
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It's occasionally presented strangely, but the way Thrawn worked was basically considering who he's attacking and not just using generic military strategy. Several times Pellaeon would watch Thrawn engage an enemy and wait for the enemy to react the way enemies should react. But then didn't. Because Pellaeon was trained in military strategy, which seemed to be based around, "When you do this, basic military strategy dictates the enemy will react this way," with no consideration of the different ways different alien races handles situations. Which kind of ties into the Imperial xenophobic mentality. "I'd react this way, so they'd be stupid to react any other way." Thrawn would study an alien race (through their art) and determine the ways the race is hardwired. Are they quick to react, more passionate than logical, things like that, and tailor his strategy based on his findings. Or in other words, if Pellaeon came across a lone hostile ship, he'd react the same way every time. Thrawn would find out what race the ship belongs to, and react differently depending on who it was. Sure, sometimes it comes off as magic. But the basic concept isn't too far out there. thrawn527 fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Nov 20, 2012 |
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Nov 14, 2012 21:14
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Insane Totoro posted:Thrawn seemed more about out-psyching the opponent. LLJKSiLk posted:Much of Thrawn's strategic success also came from listening devices hidden all over the capital building on Coruscant. Yeah these two things. There are a couple of "magic" acts, but a lot of the time it's just him getting lucky, or having inside info, or being in the head of the protagonists causing them to do dumb things. Leia says as much in one of the books. Plus Thrawn makes a lot of wrong or only half-right calls in the book too. He doesn't see or account for a lot either. Thrawn isn't a Mary Sue, but the same type of character appears in most of Zahn's books
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Nov 14, 2012 23:34
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Thrawn is interesting... but I don't think that his "ability" is necessarily justified. It's just using social/cultural blindspots to win... but he magically learns peoples minds wayyy to fast (Oh look, they're moving this way! It's a Corellian!)
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Nov 20, 2012 19:19
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Thrawn's abilities are just an extended riff on Sherlock Holmes. Thus the use of jargon terms and references- it's just like Holmes knowing forty types of cigar ash. Thus the use of ridiculous levels of insight from tiny bits of data- it's just like Holmes knowing Watson's brother was a drunkard who vacillated between good times and bad from looking at Watson's watch. Pellaeon is a direct riff on Watson- questioning, starts out slow, gets better at it as the series goes on. Even Thrawn's basic personality is Sherlock's- arrogant, socially inept, but friendly beneath all that. Added to that, we have ruthlessness, loyalty, and a commitment to success but not at any price, to make him a commander rather than purely a consulting detective. This seems a bit more unbelievable because of the broader scales involved, but hey, grandiosity is the essence of space opera. Of course, he'd be better if he had a drug habit, a tendency to dissolve into moroseness when without challenges to face, etc. And he could use a Lestrade to bounce off of as well.
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Nov 21, 2012 01:37
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He did have a Lestrade. It was Vader and you got to see the two bounce off each other a bit in Tie Fighter. Such a great game.
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Nov 21, 2012 07:07
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Effectronica posted:Thrawn's abilities are just an extended riff on Sherlock Holmes. Thus the use of jargon terms and references- it's just like Holmes knowing forty types of cigar ash. Thus the use of ridiculous levels of insight from tiny bits of data- it's just like Holmes knowing Watson's brother was a drunkard who vacillated between good times and bad from looking at Watson's watch. Pellaeon is a direct riff on Watson- questioning, starts out slow, gets better at it as the series goes on. I never thought of Thrawn as a Sherlock figure, but it's pretty obvious when you put it like that.
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Nov 21, 2012 17:55
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I think Zahn has even said as much. The alien warlord guy from Choices of One was supposed to be Moriarty, as well.
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Nov 21, 2012 20:22
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Epi Lepi posted:I never thought of Thrawn as a Sherlock figure, but it's pretty obvious when you put it like that. Yeah, that's a good observation. Although I wonder if a Sherlock Holmes archetype works for the bad guy of a space adventure. Given the number of people on Something Awful and other places who think Thrawn is a Mary Sue, it does seem like an area that could be improved or worked on. Perhaps a starting point is to de-emphasize him making deductions out of nowhere (they attacked the front TIE...they must be this specific race!) and instead show that he's a guy whose done his homework. If he is in the new movies, then since it seems likely the films will take place further in the future than the Thrawn books did, you can depict someone that has been carefully laying the foundation of a military campaign that is going to sweep the Empire back into power. Or at least that's just my dumb fan opinion, take it for what it's worth.
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Nov 22, 2012 04:52
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SirPhoebos posted:Perhaps a starting point is to de-emphasize him making deductions out of nowhere (they attacked the front TIE...they must be this specific race!) and instead show that he's a guy whose done his homework. Because Thrawn breaking down into a 4 page summary to Palleon of all the pre-work he's done would slow the gently caress down out of the my space opera. It's a sci-fi novel, authors do it all the time. Asimov barely explained how people turned into space Jedi Masters and no one gives a poo poo about that. And he's wrong often enough in the trilogy that I don't see why it's a problem WhyteRyce fucked around with this message at 05:55 on Nov 22, 2012 |
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Nov 22, 2012 05:44
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SirPhoebos posted:Yeah, that's a good observation. Although I wonder if a Sherlock Holmes archetype works for the bad guy of a space adventure. Given the number of people on Something Awful and other places who think Thrawn is a Mary Sue, it does seem like an area that could be improved or worked on. Perhaps a starting point is to de-emphasize him making deductions out of nowhere (they attacked the front TIE...they must be this specific race!) and instead show that he's a guy whose done his homework. People think that because the Mary Sue is a warped notion. It takes the extra-pathetic fanfiction notion of seeking validation from fictional characters by writing an avatar of one's self into the story, and the similar fanfiction notion of writing a character into the story solely to show up the original fictional characters, and assigns them a name. Then it treats the symptoms as a disease, so that people come to believe that an exceptional character is necessarily bad because of these factors. Corwin of Amber is, undoubtedly, immensely more powerful (in the "who can kick the rear end of who" sense) than any given fantasy character you could name. He is also much more interesting than many weaker, less "Mary-Sue-ish" fantasy characters, because as a first-person Zelaznyan smartass, we get to see the inner workings of his brain as he develops into a moral character and manages to overcome the evildoing of his own hands. And he's nowhere near an exceptionally interesting character. Rather, the issue with Thrawn would be if his extraordinary nature clashed sufficiently with the novels to be obnoxious. Since the original Thrawn Trilogy is itself somewhat of a riff on the OT in ways both obvious and less so, Thrawn suffers major setbacks at the end of HTTE, essentially wins at the end of DFR, and fails completely in TLC because his overconfidence was his weakness. And of course in a vision where Empire and Rebel are on nearly-equal footing, Thrawn must have a great many advantages to recreate the sense of small overcoming large that existed in the OT. Now, parts of the Hand of Thrawn duology are more annoying on that end, until you realize that the broad point of the clone is that Thrawn can't really predict everything and his defense measures wrecked his careful plans. Then Survivor's Quest threw in a "or is he?" at the end for no apparent reason.
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Nov 22, 2012 06:36
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SirPhoebos posted:Yeah, that's a good observation. Although I wonder if a Sherlock Holmes archetype works for the bad guy of a space adventure. Given the number of people on Something Awful and other places who think Thrawn is a Mary Sue, it does seem like an area that could be improved or worked on. Perhaps a starting point is to de-emphasize him making deductions out of nowhere (they attacked the front TIE...they must be this specific race!) and instead show that he's a guy whose done his homework. I'd have loved that. Or something that could work would be showing the first attack in the book from the perspective of those attacking aliens and how their nice advantage gets shot to hell. To me, giving the blue guy the ability to deduce what they'll do without any background about his strategic abilities seems gimmickish and lazy on the author's part. Yeah, this is a universe with a magical force, but through the books we've learned the users go through some rigorous, long-lasting training to get where they are. So when you're introduced to a badass jedi/sith you can safely assume, without backstory, that he's done stuff in life to get him where he is. On the other hand, I'll be damned if I know what the life cycle of a Chiss Tactician is!
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Nov 22, 2012 11:35
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I've been farming Wookiepedia for some images for my Let's Read thread (be sure to check it out if you haven't yet!  ), and stumbled across the entry for Farfalla, the fabulous Jedi General from the Darth Bane series. I remember I last looked at it, he didn't have a specific race. But now he has one, and it's...Half-Bothan.
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Nov 25, 2012 15:34
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SirPhoebos posted:I've been farming Wookiepedia for some images for my Let's Read thread (be sure to check it out if you haven't yet! Jesus Christ, a Jedi named "Valentine Butterfly" who is an elf/satyr dandy. 
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Nov 25, 2012 17:05
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Arschlochkind posted:Jesus Christ, a Jedi named "Valentine Butterfly" who is an elf/satyr dandy. Holy gently caress. That is ACTUALLY fanfiction.net quality writing there. We joke about the worst of the EU being fanfiction but holy gently caress.
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Nov 25, 2012 19:53
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As I recall, his species used to be "Equine" or something like that. Jedi vs. Sith was one weird series. Farfalla's spaceship was basically a flying galleon; it was like something out of The Edge Chronicles. Then there was the scene in which he ordered a fellow Jedi Knight to crack open a cask of wine and declared, "Today we spill wine, but tomorrow we spill BLOOD!" That being said, I quite like the explanation Jason Fry and Dan Wallace came up with for the aesthetic of the series.
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Nov 25, 2012 21:30
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Metal Loaf posted:As I recall, his species used to be "Equine" or something like that. I like Jedi vs. Sith because it has lots of horrible things happening to children that completely goes against the colorful art style. I don't believe I've heard any explanation for the comic's aesthetic. Care to share/link it?
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Nov 26, 2012 00:21
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SirPhoebos posted:I've been farming Wookiepedia for some images for my Let's Read thread (be sure to check it out if you haven't yet! 
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Nov 26, 2012 00:59
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SirPhoebos posted:I don't believe I've heard any explanation for the comic's aesthetic. Care to share/link it? During the New Sith Wars, the Sith basically destroy the Republic's infrastructure by cutting most of the galaxy off from the HoloNet. In defiance of the Council, several Jedi Knights go out and establish themselves as the protectors of isolated worlds, and over the centuries they create an hereditary Jedi nobility in their holdings to secure them against the Sith. I liked it, anyway. It was something different.
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Nov 26, 2012 03:53
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I've been in a Star Wars mood again since the Disney news, and a couple of days ago I got X-Wing Alliance to work on my Windows 7 machine along with its big graphical upgrade mod. It may just be my favorite Star Wars game ever; it's pretty objectively excellent as a space flight sim and it's still amazing considering it's a Windows 98 game. ...I also ran across this review of it on GameFAQs:a GameFAQs idiot posted:"Star Wars : X-Wing Alliance is quite possibly one of the most boring Star Wars games ever. I bought this game along with the original Star Wars : Rogue Squadron game and when it came to the choice between both games, I chose Rogue Squadron because I go to school to be bored out of my skull, I shouldn't have to be bored while pretending to have fun on a game that is as funny as an average conservative MP. This game is a bit like a sponge cake that I made once. I had all the ingredients, they just didn't quite fuse together to make the cake. 
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Nov 26, 2012 04:13
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Metal Loaf posted:As I recall, his species used to be "Equine" or something like that. To be fair that sounds more in line with the space pulp Lucas drew from than the Prequels did.
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Nov 26, 2012 04:48
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Arschlochkind posted:I've been in a Star Wars mood again since the Disney news, and a couple of days ago I got X-Wing Alliance to work on my Windows 7 machine along with its big graphical upgrade mod. It may just be my favorite Star Wars game ever; it's pretty objectively excellent as a space flight sim and it's still amazing considering it's a Windows 98 game. ...I also ran across this review of it on GameFAQs: I really want that guy to review Dwarf Fortress next 
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Nov 26, 2012 05:03
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