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Safety Factor posted:Yeah, they used to. That was a long time ago though and they've gone to an effort to make sure they don't really crossover anymore. They've referenced that relatively recently, with stuff like the Liber Chaotica books and Lizardman magic items.
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Nov 19, 2012 12:54
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Safety Factor posted:Yeah, they used to. That was a long time ago though and they've gone to an effort to make sure they don't really crossover anymore. Huh, for some reason I was always under the impression they were supposed to be completely different universes. Although to be honest I've never been into Warhammer Fantasy so I'm only familiar with 40k.
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Nov 19, 2012 13:48
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I liked Galaxy in Flames and feel that it's probably the best thing Ben Counter's ever written, but False Gods is kind of a pile of poo poo. It's the pivotal moment in Horus' character arc and McNeill did it in the most ham-handed way imaginable.
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Nov 19, 2012 15:31
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Mr.48 posted:Huh, for some reason I was always under the impression they were supposed to be completely different universes. Although to be honest I've never been into Warhammer Fantasy so I'm only familiar with 40k. They've pretty much always been separate, the crossover stuff from way back was always just kind of silly wink-nudge fanservice, like the narrator of Liber Chaotica "dreaming" about Chaos Space Marines (as an excuse to put some CSM art in the book). They've become more serious about keeping the two universes distinct, but WH Fantasy was never "supposed" to exist in as a planet in the Eye of Terror or whatever.
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Nov 19, 2012 15:34
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Mechafunkzilla posted:McNeill did it in the most ham-handed way imaginable. I also got to read the first book out of the Ultramarines omnibus. I found it full of passages saying that the Ultramarines are great, because they're Space Marines, and the enemies of the Imperium will cower from their fearsome might, yada yada... I wonder if the series gets better. There's some squeamish daemon-spawning stuff I hear in the later books... Perhaps the most enjoyable book I've read from him yet is Storm of Iron, because he was busy having both sides murder each other.
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Nov 19, 2012 17:59
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I couldn't stand the Ultramarines books. Ugh. They were an unfun chore and I only got through the first two.
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Nov 19, 2012 18:15
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Mechafunkzilla posted:They've pretty much always been separate, the crossover stuff from way back was always just kind of silly wink-nudge fanservice, like the narrator of Liber Chaotica "dreaming" about Chaos Space Marines (as an excuse to put some CSM art in the book). They've become more serious about keeping the two universes distinct, but WH Fantasy was never "supposed" to exist in as a planet in the Eye of Terror or whatever. Nudge-nudge wink-wink like bolters and power fists being weapons for Chaos champions in the early editions of fantasy? It was definitely supposed to be in the same universe at one point, it just got changed so now it's definitely not.
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Nov 19, 2012 18:34
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Fellblade posted:Nudge-nudge wink-wink like bolters and power fists being weapons for Chaos champions in the early editions of fantasy? It was definitely supposed to be in the same universe at one point, it just got changed so now it's definitely not.
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Nov 19, 2012 18:44
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Schneider Heim posted:I also got to read the first book out of the Ultramarines omnibus. I found it full of passages saying that the Ultramarines are great, because they're Space Marines, and the enemies of the Imperium will cower from their fearsome might, yada yada... I wonder if the series gets better. There's some squeamish daemon-spawning stuff I hear in the later books... Plus, Ultramarines are always written as self-aggrandizing jerks anyway, so why do people get pissed off when they read a story about Ultramarines talking about how great they are?
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Nov 19, 2012 19:27
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The Ultramarines books are lazily written and terribly formulaic, with plots that have little internally consistent logic and using elements that make even less sense when external reasoning is applied on them. And no, no refuge in "rule of cool" or "WH40K METAL AS FUUUUUU-"; it's just retarded poo poo. There's only so many times you can read about Uriel Sue solving the situation by not following some inviolably stupidly specific doctrine in the codex astartes (and then getting punished for it) before part of your brain starts turning to lifeless mush. The number is 5, and you get there before the end of the first book. If you want an ultramarines story go read Know No Fear.
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Nov 19, 2012 21:38
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I was reading the "Emperor's Gift", and am confused about something. Well, somethings, with an S. Hyperion says that no other space marines, save Chapter Masters, know of the Grey Knights. But Uriel in the Ultramarines recognizes not only a single Grey Knight, but knows all about their chapter and their purpose. Furthermore, they say that guardsmen that see daemons have to be executed, but Caiaphas Cain (Hero of the Imperium) knows all about Chaos, and I think even the guardsmen he served with knew about them too. Also, when talking about Angron, Hyperion says that no one in the Imperium can ever know that the Emperor's sons turned against him, so does your average Joe S. Guardsmen or John. H. Manufactorum know nothing of Horus or the Heresy? Or only know of Horus as like the devil, and have no clue about the other primarchs? I figured that this book takes place in 444.M41 or however they date stuff, so maybe the rules or laws or whatever changed in the current time line. Or is it just that there is no real official stance and it is whatever the authors want to happen, happen? Confusion aside, the book is pretty awesome.
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Nov 20, 2012 02:25
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Impaired Casing posted:I figured that this book takes place in 444.M41 or however they date stuff, so maybe the rules or laws or whatever changed in the current time line. Or is it just that there is no real official stance and it is whatever the authors want to happen, happen? Honestly, I think the Grey Knights (being based around Terra) are completely deluded as to what the Imperium as a whole knows and believes. It would fit the setting wouldn't it?
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Nov 20, 2012 02:44
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McNeil's Ultramarine's series was written with the old fluff. Also it's bad so disregard them. Space Flashman is kind of a comedy series so... (also old fluff). As for the traitor legions, it varies from region to region (and some authors because they didn't do their research) but in general it is known that there was a civil war, after all that's basic on how the Emperor came to "ascend" to the Golden Throne, but the fact that the traitor primarchs are still going about and have become daemon princes isn't common knowledge.
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Nov 20, 2012 02:49
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I thought it was after wiping out Armageddon once or twice the Imperium figured out killing everyone who has had contact with chaos was a pretty lovely tactic.
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Nov 20, 2012 02:52
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Azubah posted:I thought it was after wiping out Armageddon once or twice the Imperium figured out killing everyone who has had contact with chaos was a pretty lovely tactic. Yeah, the aftermath of the 2nd war for Armageddon led to a lot of changes within the Inquisition. It was that bad of a clusterfuck.
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Nov 20, 2012 03:03
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Azubah posted:I thought it was after wiping out Armageddon once or twice the Imperium figured out killing everyone who has had contact with chaos was a pretty lovely tactic. Emperor's Gift is written and set in the same time period as Eisenhorn/Ravenor (mid M41) and after the events of the book, things are suppose to have changed. Upper Imperial management has always known about Chaos though and there's a couple of times in Cain's books where he ensures that everyone has the right level of clearance before a briefing about Chaos Daemons or whatever. Cain is also a bit different since given his connections with Lord Generals, Xenos leadership, Space Marines and his popularity and fame in the Sector, he probably has more influence that your average inquisitor. Echoing the love for all things Ultramarine in Know No Fear. It's what Legion and Soul Hunter did for their respective chapters and portrays Roboute Guilliman brilliantly.
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Nov 20, 2012 03:12
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Nephilm posted:Also it's bad so disregard them. Aw, I sort of liked Uriel in it. He was like the one boy scout Space Marine, and his devotion was so over the top I loved it. It was an "Oh Uriel, you scamp! Get out of here and go purge the unclean... For the Emperor!" vibe for the most part, and I had fun with it. So, I've read the Ultramarines and Word Bearers series, what other chapters/legions do they have series on? I know they have the Blood Angels and the Salamanders, but I heard they were not worth the time, and put them off to read. I love most of the traitor legions fluff, especially Emperor's Children and the Deathguard. I got my fill of the former in the various Horus Heresy books, but can't find anything about Motarion and his legion. The only thing I saw was that some inquisitor carved his name in Motarion's heart? He seemed way more bad rear end than that in "The First Heretic". Kegslayer posted:Echoing the love for all things Ultramarine in Know No Fear. It's what Legion and Soul Hunter did for their respective chapters and portrays Roboute Guilliman brilliantly. I couldn't agree more. I loved how quickly the Ultramarines got their act together when they realized what had happened, and all this talk about it is making me confused as to whether I want to reread that, or the Ravenor omnibus. Hell, it's Thanksgiving, maybe I'll do both and be a shut in.
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Nov 20, 2012 03:26
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Kegslayer posted:Cain is also a bit different since given his connections with Lord Generals, Xenos leadership, Space Marines and his popularity and fame in the Sector, he probably has more influence that your average inquisitor.
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Nov 20, 2012 04:21
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Are the two Sisters of Battle books worth reading?
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Nov 20, 2012 05:03
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Arquinsiel posted:Going by how Dark Heresy handles these things, there's a pretty good chance that Cain *IS* an Inquisitor, but Amberly forgot to tell him. He makes the perfect Inquisitor then, can't deny what you don't know!
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Nov 20, 2012 05:35
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Impaired Casing posted:Aw, I sort of liked Uriel in it. He was like the one boy scout Space Marine, and his devotion was so over the top I loved it. It was an "Oh Uriel, you scamp! Get out of here and go purge the unclean... For the Emperor!" vibe for the most part, and I had fun with it. That wasn't an Inquisitor, that was Kaldor Draigo, Lord of Titan, Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights and the Samurai Jack of the WH40k universe. But yeah, there isn't much Death Guard stuff to go around. The Flight of the Eisenhorn book deals with them a bit but it's a pretty lackluster book past the first third of it. As for other traitor legion stuff outside of HH books, ADB's Night Lords books are great, and I've heard good things of Storm of Iron (which ties in to the Ultramarines Omnibus, regardless of how much as I dislike it). On more general space marine stuff, Helsreach gets you your fill of Black Templars.
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Nov 20, 2012 08:03
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Nephilm posted:Helsreach gets you your fill of Black Templars. Speaking of Helsreach. Forgot to post this from ADB a few days ago. ADB Facebook posted:I think I'm going back to Helsreach for a while, to catch up with Grimaldus, the Crone, and (of course) Andrej. An untold story or two still lurking in the ruins.
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Nov 20, 2012 08:40
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Yes, the world needs more Andrej. Best character.
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Nov 20, 2012 08:54
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On ADB, he's suppose to be writing a Black Legion trilogy so that's something more to look forward to.
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Nov 20, 2012 09:02
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Nephilm posted:Yeah, the aftermath of the 2nd war for Armageddon led to a lot of changes within the Inquisition. It was that bad of a clusterfuck. Are you sure you aren't talking about the first war as the second was against the orks and I have no recollection of the Inquisition making any purges after that one. 
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Nov 20, 2012 16:13
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berzerkmonkey posted:You have to remember that most of that series was written in the very early days of 40K novels. Space Marines (especially Ultramarines) were the most awesome thing in the universe at the time. William King's Space Wolf novels were written around the same time and they're vastly superior. But I suppose that's correct--they didn't need to explain why Space Marines are awesome back then, maybe because 40k fiction used to be more niche than it is today? What I love about Know No Fear is that it shows the mettle of the Ultramarines. Dan Abnett also fleshed them out with a semblance of culture (Theoretical? Practical?), and humanized Guilliman. They're still rather full of themselves, but it's a lot more forgivable. Impaired Casing posted:Death Guard fluff There's a lot to read about them (pre and post-Heresy) here. They had a sensible combat doctrine, too! Mortarion was just an asshat towards most of his brothers, and especially hated psykers. Nephilm posted:Storm of Iron And yes I would love to see more Andrej.
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Nov 20, 2012 16:19
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Cooked Auto posted:Are you sure you aren't talking about the first war as the second was against the orks and I have no recollection of the Inquisition making any purges after that one. Yeah, sorry, first war.
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Nov 20, 2012 18:35
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Quite possibly I need to go back and reread Emperor's Gift, but I didn't remember the Inquisition learning any (positive) lessons from the whole debacle. I remembered it ending with them grudgingly accepting the truce and then immediately starting to talk about how they could passive-aggressively screw over the Space Wolves in the future.
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Nov 20, 2012 21:57
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JerryLee posted:Quite possibly I need to go back and reread Emperor's Gift, but I didn't remember the Inquisition learning any (positive) lessons from the whole debacle. I remembered it ending with them grudgingly accepting the truce and then immediately starting to talk about how they could passive-aggressively screw over the Space Wolves in the future. There's an epilogue or something detailing how the Inquisition never managed to get control of such a large force or something, or how they never let a single Inquisitor get so much power to himself. I forget the details but it's in there.
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Nov 20, 2012 23:01
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Fellblade posted:There's an epilogue or something detailing how the Inquisition never managed to get control of such a large force or something, or how they never let a single Inquisitor get so much power to himself. I forget the details but it's in there. It's hilarious because nobody actually knew who the hell the guy was. He just showed up, was like "hey I'm an important inquisitor" and suddenly he was in charge.
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Nov 20, 2012 23:50
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There's no formal rank structure in the inquisition, if you show up and wave the Rosette then you're in charge unless someone shoots you in the face and it manages to kill you.
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Nov 21, 2012 00:33
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Arquinsiel posted:There's no formal rank structure in the inquisition, if you show up and wave the Rosette then you're in charge unless someone shoots you in the face and it manages to kill you. In Eisenhorn/Ravenor they made it clear there were regional/district inquistors who had authority over everyone else working under them. There's a definite command structure, but not a complex one.
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Nov 21, 2012 00:38
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Actually, as with all things pertaining to Imperial bureaucracy, the Inquisition has a fairly complex organizational structure, though ranks and such are mainly a way for inquisitors to regulate (and police) each other; outside the Inquisition itself all inquisitors wield functionally similar power.
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Nov 21, 2012 01:21
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pentyne posted:In Eisenhorn/Ravenor they made it clear there were regional/district inquistors who had authority over everyone else working under them. There's a definite command structure, but not a complex one.
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Nov 21, 2012 02:56
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S.J. posted:I couldn't stand the Ultramarines books. Ugh. They were an unfun chore and I only got through the first two. That's too bad, because you missed out on the only two worth reading: Dead Sky, Black Sun and The Chapter's Due. Honsu is by far the most interesting character in the series and read with Storm of Iron it makes for a compelling trilogy. The rest of the books are just standard bolter porn - the mighty Ultramarines versus $insert_xenos_here. Of these, I liked Courage and Honor the best because it has the Tau (which are pretty rare in 40K fiction).
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Nov 21, 2012 15:47
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Nephilm posted:Actually, as with all things pertaining to Imperial bureaucracy, the Inquisition has a fairly complex organizational structure, though ranks and such are mainly a way for inquisitors to regulate (and police) each other; outside the Inquisition itself all inquisitors wield functionally similar power. From my understanding the only people that can tell an inquisitor to stuff it and expect it to stick is the leadership of a Space Marine chapter.
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Nov 21, 2012 23:09
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Rhymenoserous posted:From my understanding the only people that can tell an inquisitor to stuff it and expect it to stick is the leadership of a Space Marine chapter. Or another inquisitor. Which is why most people of high enough political station are often buddies with an inquisitor or two.
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Nov 21, 2012 23:23
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Rhymenoserous posted:From my understanding the only people that can tell an inquisitor to stuff it and expect it to stick is the leadership of a Space Marine chapter. Everybody can tell an Inquisitor to stuff it, and nobody can tell an Inquisitor to stuff it. Legally they have infinite power, but in reality their power only goes as far as their reputation and resources. If you are Joe Schmuck, Inquisitor for a week, then there's a massive amount of people who can tell you to get stuffed and suffer minor, if any, consequences. If you are a 300 year veteran, massively respected leader of sub-sector Ordos or something, there's basically nobody that can tell you what to do unless they are also an Inquisitor with similar reputation and resources. It's like some kind of mafioso or roman senate type organisation where who owes who a favour is more important than ranks and titles.
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Nov 21, 2012 23:25
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Yeah, the whole "overlapping power networks, each with close to unlimited power on paper" thing resulting in informal networks of restraint and governance instead of any sort of formalized checks and balances between the different arms is definitely something you still see both historically and even now in a lot of third-world countries (e.g., China).
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Nov 21, 2012 23:28
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China is second world, but comparing the Inquisition to inner party membership of a Communist state probably won't lead you far off the intended mindset.
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Nov 22, 2012 00:43
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