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A lot of the people we see Dredd killing are block tenants and not raging gang members(something quite different to The Raid), most likely with wives and children, similar to the guy that Dredd forces Anderson to execute. Some of them are actually children! All the gangs were cleaned by Ma-Ma leaving only the scared people. All these supposedly "perps", are just ordinary people pushed into a terrible life and a desperate situation, because of a horrible person that sits at the top, Ma-Ma, who exploits an even worst state caused by the Judge System. Anderson notes this when they enter Peach Trees, later on the other Judges also say that it's the Judges that keep turning the grinder on Mega City One. As such the block tenants that go against Dredd go on the wrong impression that is better to buck down to the Law of Ma-Ma, than to these two losers who are only there, because for once a Judge did not execute the real criminal on the spot. How hard can it be to just kill them both, and survive another day? They can't be as bad as Ma-Ma. When Dredd does his speech "Ma-Ma isn't the Law. I am the Law.", it's the point where he becomes more than ever, the aggressor and the invader, like professor clumsy says, the block tenants were defending themselves from the Judge, who has an overwhelming superior fire power to the average joe on the block. He also barely cares to distinguish who really are the gang members, and who are just there because of coercion and fear.(Like the computer Hacker, and all the individuals Dredd gunned down) Remember his gun actually caries tazers, if he wanted he could taze the whole drat block instead of killing them all. When Dredd re-establishes the Law(His Law) on Peach Trees, he makes that point by proving that the Law(His Law) is ten times worse than Ma-Ma's Law. It's a message of fear and terror. To summarize: When we are introduced to Dredd he melts a guys face, without giving a care. Throughout the rest of the film, he forces his ally to execute wounded individuals, he tortures someone and approves of more extreme forms of torture, sets fire to a group of individuals and stands by watching them burn, and throws a woman from a balcony, after administrating her drugs, and putting the lives of 80.000 at risk. I'm pretty sure that what Dredd does in this film amounts to a bunch of crimes against humanity. Dredd is quite the over the top character, even if the film left out the more camp aspect of the comics.
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Nov 26, 2012 23:44
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Baron Bifford posted:Even when you remove the contrast between him and Ma-Ma, he still doesn't come off as very bad. There isn't very much he does that can objectively be qualified as "evil" or even excessive. Killing people in self-defence or to save the lives of others is justifiable even by modern standards - it's the whole reason cops have guns, right? We see only a few occasions where he does something objectively bad, ie executing a helpless criminal (and giving her Slo-Mo to heighten her suffering) and beating up a captive for info. This is what happens when your screenwriter does a rewrite of The Raid rather than crafting an original tale tailored to the Judge Dredd setting. The simple fact that a drug dealer who's making what looks like a harmless narcotic (do we even see Slo-Mo having any side effects?) needs to be armed and vicious to the level Ma-Ma is is part of what's broken about the system. The increased militarization of the police force and SWAT no-knock raids are horrendous, and part of what Dredd is satirizing. It's one of those things like Grand Theft Auto and Verhoven movies where for somebody outside America its obviously absurd, but some Americans might take it for granted that this is the way things should be.
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Nov 26, 2012 23:59
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Count Chocula posted:(do we even see Slo-Mo having any side effects?) It fucks up your teeth something fierce, which I took as an attempt to equate it to meth, one of the more dangerous illicit drugs of the world we live in today.
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Nov 27, 2012 02:39
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Electronico6 posted:A lot of the people we see Dredd killing are block tenants and not raging gang members I thought they all were gang members though? Ma-Ma's initial broadcast told everyone to get inside their apartments and don't open the doors, since her thugs were going to sweep through the corridors of the building. The end result of the gang cleaning by Ma-Ma was that her gang was the only one left. She didn't get rid of all the gangers; she just made sure hers were the only ones in Peachtrees.
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Nov 27, 2012 02:48
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Electronico6 posted:A lot of the people we see Dredd killing are block tenants and not raging gang members(something quite different to The Raid), most likely with wives and children, similar to the guy that Dredd forces Anderson to execute. Some of them are actually children! All the gangs were cleaned by Ma-Ma leaving only the scared people. All these supposedly "perps", are just ordinary people pushed into a terrible life and a desperate situation, because of a horrible person that sits at the top, Ma-Ma, who exploits an even worst state caused by the Judge System. Anderson notes this when they enter Peach Trees, later on the other Judges also say that it's the Judges that keep turning the grinder on Mega City One. As such the block tenants that go against Dredd go on the wrong impression that is better to buck down to the Law of Ma-Ma, than to these two losers who are only there, because for once a Judge did not execute the real criminal on the spot. How hard can it be to just kill them both, and survive another day? They can't be as bad as Ma-Ma. Plus, I do question just how innocent and ordinary these people are if they're packing heat and following the orders of a criminal kingpin. Most of the residents just took refuge in their homes, waiting for the storm to pass. That's how normal people react when guns start going off in their community. These guys, whoever, wanted a piece of the action. Either they were part of the Ma-Ma clan or they wanted to make a name for themselves by taking out a Judge. Electronico6 posted:When Dredd does his speech "Ma-Ma isn't the Law. I am the Law.", it's the point where he becomes more than ever, the aggressor and the invader, like professor clumsy says, the block tenants were defending themselves from the Judge, who has an overwhelming superior fire power to the average joe on the block. He also barely cares to distinguish who really are the gang members, and who are just there because of coercion and fear.(Like the computer Hacker, and all the individuals Dredd gunned down) Remember his gun actually caries tazers, if he wanted he could taze the whole drat block instead of killing them all. When Dredd re-establishes the Law(His Law) on Peach Trees, he makes that point by proving that the Law(His Law) is ten times worse than Ma-Ma's Law. It's a message of fear and terror. Mega-City is a tough world, with high crime and brutal law enforcement, but the absolute worst way to deal with this situation is to join a criminal gang and pick fights with law enforcers. Ma-Ma is no social activist or freedom fighter or even an upstanding community leader. She's an utterly self-centered and heartless drug lord. She orders the block to go after Dredd when her freedom and her little racket is threatened. It has nothing to do with protecting the welfare of the block's residents. Zweihander01 posted:I thought they all were gang members though? Ma-Ma's initial broadcast told everyone to get inside their apartments and don't open the doors, since her thugs were going to sweep through the corridors of the building. Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 05:36 on Nov 27, 2012 |
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Nov 27, 2012 05:20
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Except Dredd is also heartless. And by taking over the other gangs, you could say that Ma-Ma brought stability to the community (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNWvdtt5sxs Tom Lehrer knows it). I also don't regard drugs as inherently bad, especially one that was pointedly not shown to have any side effects. In fact, if you isolated the Slo-Mo scenes they wouldn't look out of place in a gorgeous art film. The drugs created the moments of genuine beauty in the film. It's interesting that the drug wasn't something that made people aggressive or stronger or crazier - no bath salts or PCP. It was some kind of tranquilizer or hallucinogen. But yes, there were lots of individual criminals and 'bad guys', as there should be in an action film. But you need to ask why an action film dehumanizes them to this point - and the film does humanize them! While watching the movie, I had your point of view because it was an action movie. Afterwards, you shouldn't still be in that brutal mindset.
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Nov 27, 2012 06:23
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Your post doesn't really address any of my points.
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Nov 27, 2012 08:27
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Why would anyone in Mega City One, least of all the residents of Peachtrees, assume the Judges have their well being and safety in mind? Baron Bifford posted:Plus, I do question just how innocent and ordinary these people are if they're packing heat and following the orders of a criminal kingpin. I really, really hope you're a troll.
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Nov 27, 2012 08:37
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I'm certainly not. If you rewatch the movie, it's clear that Ma-Ma issues the kill order to her gangster subordinates. "Peach Trees, this is Ma-Ma. Somewhere in this block are two Judges. I want them dead. Until I get what I want the block is locked down. All clan on every level, hunt the Judges down. Everyone else, clear the corridors and stay the gently caress out of our way until the shooting stops. If I hear anyone helping the Judges I will kill them and the next generation of their family." Ma-Ma is such a loving beacon of light in this sea of darkness, right?
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Nov 27, 2012 09:24
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Zweihander01 posted:I thought they all were gang members though? Ma-Ma's initial broadcast told everyone to get inside their apartments and don't open the doors, since her thugs were going to sweep through the corridors of the building. The thing is, though, this is a city with 90% unemployment. In our society, running with the gangs robbing and stealing is a way to make money while avoiding the need to work for it. In Mega-City One running with the gangs is often the only work there is, and a lot of men are going to be doing it just so they can feel proud that they're putting food on their own table instead of accepting welfare from the City.
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Nov 27, 2012 09:33
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The motivations and the moral responsibility are beside the point. They chose to become gangsters, they chose to go gunning for the Judges on Ma-Ma's orders, and the Judges killed them in self-defence. It seems everyone has this idea that the Judges are evil and the criminals are all innocent victims of circumstance. This is sometimes true in the comics, but it is not supported by the events of the movie. Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 09:49 on Nov 27, 2012 |
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Nov 27, 2012 09:46
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Baron Bifford posted:The motivations and the moral responsibility are beside the point. You scare the poo poo out of me.
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Nov 27, 2012 09:51
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Bugblatter posted:You scare the poo poo out of me. Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 10:05 on Nov 27, 2012 |
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Nov 27, 2012 09:55
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Bugblatter posted:You scare the poo poo out of me. If it helps, he's always been this dumb in every other media thread ever. I still hold out hope the whole thing is just a trolling gimmick because nobody could ever be this consistently dense and tone-deaf across such a wide range of subjects.
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Nov 27, 2012 13:21
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Baron Bifford posted:The motivations and the moral responsibility are beside the point. This is exactly the point. It's almost like you're trying to miss it. Nobody is saying the gangs are good and the judges are evil. Nobody is even saying Dredd is 'wrong' exactly for shooting 90% of the people he shot. As you say, most of them were trying to kill him. But why is everyone trying to kill him? What people are saying is that the movie makes it pretty loving obvious that the actions of the judges and the system that they operate in is not helping society. In fact, their actions tend to exacerbate violence, and they end up employing much the same tactics of intimidation and torture as the criminals. In the end, the Judges are not much better than a gang themselves, with a similar lack of morals and regard for human life, except their goal is total adherence to the law rather than profit. And they cause almost as much suffering to the people under them. jabby fucked around with this message at 14:50 on Nov 27, 2012 |
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Nov 27, 2012 14:48
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Baron Bifford posted:If anybody today assaulted a cop with deadly weapon and got shot dead, nobody would blame the cop. You can euologize all you want at the guy's funeral, and say how he was basically a good man who wanted to feed his family but was constrained by terrible circumstances, and maybe the cop will feel sad for the family, yadda yadda, but nobody is going to blame the cop. A poo poo ton of people are going to blame the system that cop is part of though, as well as the system that encourages people to assault armed cops with deadly weapons. The police in my country (the country Dredd originates from, both the comic and the screenwriter of the film) do not carry guns.
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Nov 27, 2012 15:29
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jabby posted:Nobody is saying the gangs are good and the judges are evil. jabby posted:But why is everyone trying to kill him? jabby posted:What people are saying is that the movie makes it pretty loving obvious that the actions of the judges and the system that they operate in is not helping society. In fact, their actions tend to exacerbate violence, and they end up employing much the same tactics of intimidation and torture as the criminals. jabby posted:In the end, the Judges are not much better than a gang themselves, with a similar lack of morals and regard for human life, except their goal is total adherence to the law rather than profit. Perhaps Dredd's only sin is that he does not express any pity for the people he protects. He does not have any kind words, nor do we see any horrified frown through that helmet he never takes off. Maybe we need a scene of him stroking a kitten with a broken leg. But his actions, at least, do not support the idea that he is an irresponsible mass murderer. By his actions he demonstrates that he upholds the law to the letter and is willing to put his life at great risk to do so. Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Nov 27, 2012 |
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Nov 27, 2012 15:59
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Baron Bifford posted:he upholds the law to the letter Yes. But the law ITSELF is excessive, harmful and inappropriate
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Nov 27, 2012 16:18
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Fatkraken posted:Yes. But the law ITSELF is excessive, harmful and inappropriate Remember, I am not arguing over Judge Dredd in general, I'm just talking about his depiction in this movie and the movie's failure to fully convey the themes present in the comics. Please keep that in mind. Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Nov 27, 2012 |
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Nov 27, 2012 16:27
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Baron Bifford posted:Yes they do. You, for example. You contradict yourself in this very post. You say the Judges are "not evil", but then go on to say that "the Judges are not much better than a gang themselves, with a similar lack of morals and regard for human life" The point is that its not so black and white. Baron Bifford posted:How exactly in the movie do the Judges cause the violence they fight? You do not back up this claim with examples. I already gave you examples earlier. Dredd participates in a car chase that gets an innocent guy killed. He shoots at a truck on a crowded freeway and causes it to crash. He risks the life of a hostage to execute a criminal. Remember the people he was chasing weren't murderers, they were relatively minor criminals when he got involved. He may have upheld the law, but he escalated the violence. Then he threatens a homeless man with prison. Executes unarmed men. Burns to death men who aren't an immediate threat. Tortures a prisoner. Puts the life of an innocent citizen at risk by hiding in her apartment. Considering the people on Ma-Ma's side are the brothers and husbands of people in the block driven to crime by relentless poverty, do you think torturing and killing them is likely to win popularity for the judges? Or is their brutal uncompromising attitude going to create more criminals? Maybe when people realise that being innocent is no guarantee you won't be caught in the crossfire and the judges don't really care if you are. From the perspective of the civilians living in the block, what is the difference between the judges and the gangs? Both of them don't really care about you provided you don't get in their way, and in both cases you are likely to suffer if you don't do what they want. The only difference is that the judges won't kill innocent people on purpose, but naturally tonnes of innocent people die anyway when they show up. Practically the result is no different from a gang war. quote:Haven't I been through this one? Dredd has way more regard for human life than the criminals he fights. He negotiated for that hostage's life, then saved her. Ma-Ma is the one who fired a minigun in a crowded residential block, killing a lot of innocents in the crossfire, whereas Dredd's gunfire is amazingly surgical and doesn't kill any innocents. Dredd has regard for the law, and killing innocent people is against the law. That doesn't mean he has regard for human life. As I said above, he regularly puts innocents in harms way to dispense justice. In fact, pretty much nothing he does in the movie constitutes protecting people, unless you count protecting people from a situation he caused by his presence. And while it might not exactly be his fault that his presence causes violence, it is the fault of the system that makes judges so terrifying that people will literally do anything to avoid punishment. jabby fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Nov 27, 2012 |
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Nov 27, 2012 16:33
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Baron Bifford posted:Apart from Anderson giving a three week sentence to that vagrant, how much of that do we see in the movie? I don't think even America has the death penalty for attempted murder of a cop.
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Nov 27, 2012 16:34
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Baron Bifford posted:Apart from Anderson giving a three week sentence to that vagrant, how much of that do we see in the movie? Even cops aren't allowed to summarily execute or torture people.
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Nov 27, 2012 16:36
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Baron Bifford posted:Apart from Anderson giving a three week sentence to that vagrant, how much of that do we see in the movie? Did you watch this on, like, an aeroplane or something?
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Nov 27, 2012 16:40
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marktheando posted:I don't think even America has the death penalty for attempted murder of a cop. You're probably likely to get shot "resisting arrest" if you're a(n attempted) cop killer though.
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Nov 27, 2012 16:40
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MrBling posted:You're probably likely to get shot "resisting arrest" if you're a(n attempted) cop killer though. Yeah but that's still illegal, even if a cop would most likely not be be punished for it. The point was about the law itself in Dredd being excessive.
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Nov 27, 2012 16:45
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jabby posted:The point is that its not so black and white. jabby posted:Then he threatens a homeless man with prison. Executes unarmed men. Burns to death men who aren't an immediate threat. Tortures a prisoner. Puts the life of an innocent citizen at risk by hiding in her apartment. Considering the people on Ma-Ma's side are the brothers and husbands of people in the block driven to crime by relentless poverty, do you think torturing and killing them is likely to win popularity for the judges? Or is their brutal uncompromising attitude going to create more criminals? Again, you're shifting responsibility away from the criminal to law enforcement. I don't think Dredd's actions here will spawn more criminals. None of these guys were rebels or freedom fighters, they were just gangsters. And with Ma-Ma and a much of her goons dead, law and order may actually return to Peach Trees... at least until a new gang fills the void and somehow blames the Judges for everything they do. Egads, removing criminals from the streets bring peace and order!  jabby posted:And while it might not exactly be his fault that his presence causes violence, it is the fault of the system that makes judges so terrifying that people will literally do anything to avoid punishment. The gangsters in the block went after Dredd not because he was threatening to rape their women and plunder their wealth or confiscate their lands. They wanted to kill him because they didn't want Kay to rat them out for all the murders and thefts and drug deals they committed. Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Nov 27, 2012 |
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Nov 27, 2012 16:50
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They make it ridiculously obvious that everything in Mega-City One is broken. The narration states right off the bat that Peach Trees has 97% unemployment. And Ma-Ma isn't just issuing order to her gang members she is offering a large reward to people who live in a desolate, hopeless place. I mean dude, they show us that there are desperate non-gang members involved in the Judge hunt.
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Nov 27, 2012 17:28
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Baron Bifford posted:All I saw in this movie was a bunch of desperate criminals doing crazy things to escape the consequences for serious crimes they committed. Which in this case include life imprisonment for robbery and death for assaulting a police officer. Do you get the point?
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Nov 27, 2012 17:32
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leokitty posted:They make it ridiculously obvious that everything in Mega-City One is broken. The narration states right off the bat that Peach Trees has 97% unemployment.
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Nov 27, 2012 17:48
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Baron Bifford posted:The movie gives hints of a ridiculous system here and there, but it doesn't make it the focus of the movie. Alex Garland has produced a rather generic action movie and not a proper satirical piece. What's a proper satirical piece?
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Nov 27, 2012 17:51
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marktheando posted:What's a proper satirical piece?
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Nov 27, 2012 17:58
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Baron Bifford posted:
Are we talking about real life here? Because no, it doesn't, and the assumption that it does is one of the very attitudes being mocked in the movie. quote:Something that you won't get if you rehash the basic plot of Under Siege or Die Hard. What if one of your satirical aims is examining the undertones of popular movies like Under Siege and Die Hard?
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Nov 27, 2012 17:58
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marktheando posted:What's a proper satirical piece? Troll 2 (1990)
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Nov 27, 2012 18:00
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Baron Bifford posted:The movie gives hints of a ridiculous system here and there, but it doesn't make it the focus of the movie. Alex Garland has produced a rather generic action movie and not a proper satirical piece. Why does the ridiculous system have to be the centerpiece? Once the system is established as being broken what would harping on that do?
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Nov 27, 2012 18:02
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leokitty posted:Why does the ridiculous system have to be the centerpiece?
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Nov 27, 2012 18:03
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Baron Bifford posted:Cause then it would have felt like a proper, definitive Dredd movie and not something that is only incidentally Dredd. So basically this movie isn't the one you would have made therefore you don't think it works?
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Nov 27, 2012 18:05
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Oh, it works on its own. I will be getting it on DVD. It's just not the great Dredd movie I was waiting for. It's just another action movie that will not be remembered for anything distinctive in the same way as Robocop, Starship Troopers and Total Recall.
Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Nov 27, 2012 |
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Nov 27, 2012 18:09
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I wouldn't exactly call Robocop clever. But that's just because Verhoeven prefers the sledgehammer approach when it comes to satire.
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Nov 27, 2012 18:13
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It's funny because I feel like Dredd is the best Paul Verhoeven movie not actually by Paul Verhoeven.
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Nov 27, 2012 18:17
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Baron Bifford posted:Oh, it works on its own. It's just not the great Dredd movie I was waiting for. It's just another action movie that will not be remembered for anything clever in the same way as Robocop, Starship Troopers and Total Recall. At least two of those were EXACTLY "just another action movie" in terms of the overall plot, look at Starship Troopers, it was adapted from a not particularly satirical book and needed very little tweaking past the surface layers to turn it into a very clear (if not subtle) satire
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Nov 27, 2012 18:20
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