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quote:I actually have a question Rodnik, since you mentioned it, how active in the "Scientific Community" are you? What journals are you subscribed to? Have you wrote any OP pieces or articles for or about this community? Now he is just arguing in bad faith.
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Nov 28, 2012 00:16
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Mornacale posted:"Energy from what?" The Ionosphere, can't you read?! More importantly, the only thing you can really do is convince him that he's arguing the wrong way. It is not possible to do what he is asking, because things that never happened leave no evidence. He has to provide compelling evidence that it DID happen before you can even entertain the idea, much less agree. And if he really doesn't get it, you could press him to prove something absurd never happened... "Prove to me you have never, ever eaten a human baby, you baby-eater!"
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Nov 28, 2012 00:17
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Kro-Bar posted:Yeah, this is pretty much the right wing argument for defunding Planned Parenthood. Yeah, pretty much  I wonder how they would take to the reverse argument. "I bought stuff from your store, so you can't use my money to buy beer!!"
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Nov 28, 2012 00:19
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:Power companies certainly would have a motive for hiding any success, but motive doesn't prove anything. It really seems like Capitalism as a whole has to fail for it to really work out this way. Literally every person who becomes aware of the invention must be in a position where they benefit from the current setup. It must be impossible for any one of them to break ranks and, armed with the designs for unlimited power, somehow be unable to translate that into wealth at the cost of bankrupting their cronies. Frankly, I just don't think people are that nice.
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Nov 28, 2012 00:22
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Rodnik posted:Now he is just arguing in bad faith. I would just ignore it, act like the post never occurred and don't get distracted. Press on the point that it is not possible for you to prove the non-existence of an event that never occurred. Until he understands the logic behind this your efforts are sure to be fruitless.
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Nov 28, 2012 00:22
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Rodnik posted:Now he is just arguing in bad faith. If you aren't part of the scientific community then clearly you don't know what you're talking about and leave the science to the scientists. If you are part of the scientific community then you have a vested interest in the status quo and therefore biased against truly revolutionary thinking. I'm just like Galileo.
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Nov 28, 2012 00:26
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Orange Devil posted:I wish the whole "not openly meddling in others countries elections" wasn't a thing,
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Nov 28, 2012 00:26
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What evidence would I need to believe the Tesla conspiracy? Working prototypes that draw power from the ionosphere; but if it requires input power and produces less than it consumes its a no-go. Am unusual pattern of electrical engineers and scientists either dying at young ages, retiring, or suddenly getting high paying jobs with no actual work responsibilities.
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Nov 28, 2012 00:34
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Absurd Alhazred posted:If it was a thing, Israel's PM wouldn't be able to openly campaign for Romney during the last elections. Special relationship. Like an abusive spouse.
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Nov 28, 2012 00:43
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blackmet posted:Nope. My athiest, lesbian, nose ring and pink hair wearing, moderate Democrat friend manages the framing dept. at one. She even invites her more openminded coworkers to parties at her place where she introduces her partner of 5 years as her wife. But she's also not exactly super open at work with everyone. Mods, change my name to "atheist lesbian nose ring."
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Nov 28, 2012 01:12
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Rodnik posted:
Some people just have to be on SOME kind of drug. If it's not crack, it's meth. If it's not meth, it's mainlining heroin. My condolences.
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Nov 28, 2012 01:16
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My glib "energy from what?" response was actually a serious suggestion, though. If you have the patience and some measure of scientific literacy, you could potentially teach them something about science...and even learn something yourself!  That is, ask probing questions to figure out exactly what wrong beliefs your friend has regarding the possibility of such an energy source, then gently correct them. Of course, this is not guaranteed to actually work. You could also point out this to your friend, and mention that if it takes this level of ongoing research let alone difficult setup to get electricity "from the ionosphere" it's pretty likely Tesla didn't manage it (and how is there ongoing research if there's a conspiracy against it?).
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Nov 28, 2012 03:25
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I don't mean to be condescending, but I think the big reason that people buy into these theories is because deep down, they really really want them to be true. I think we're all guilty of that to some degree, every now and then. The real test is to recognize it when it happens.
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Nov 28, 2012 03:55
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On the Hobby Lobby train, a FB friend of my brother was raging about how BIG GOVERNMENT IS FORCING THEIR MORALS ON CHRISTIAN BUSINESSES. I asked him if Obama was a Muslim. He said yes. I asked if Muslims were opposed to abortion. He said yes, but not of Christian babies. I asked where Hobby Lobby and ChikFila were now enforcing women-only sections in their stores, and in what states only veil and hijab wearing women could come into the store. He said it was only a matter of time. There is literally no speaking to these people.
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Nov 28, 2012 03:59
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quote:Israel drops leaflets and broadcasts on radio and 12-36 hours before responding to suicide bombings and missile attacks. The Palestinians try and give no notice before they target innocent children and other civilians because they know how to hit Israelis where it hurts- regular people going on about their regular day. Just today a woman fought off a Palestinian terrorist who came in with a gun to kill her and her four small children, he stabbed her in the face and the shoulder with a knife. Luckily she grew up learning Krav Maga and was able to push him off and lock him in the bathroom. Israel responded to years of missle attacks from Gaza and years of little children, kind of like the ones you commented on, living in fear of missiles,. being unable to stay in their kindergartens. For hours after the "cease-fire" the palestinians kept shooting missiles at Israel while Israel stood by. Their president Abbas has publicly said "I will never allow even one Israeli to live on palestinian land". If an Israeli wants to tour Gaza he/she runs the likely possiblity of a gruesome death if entering unprotected, while thousands of palestinians know they can even become supreme court justices without fear of being killed for the holy cause of "freeing palestine". Too many excuses are being made for all their suicide bombings, abuse of women and non-stop attacks in the name of "freedom fighting". A real lover of peace does not attack the children and civilians who are just trying to live their lives. I don't remember you posting anything about the poor afganistan people who were bombed like crazy after the holy freedom fighter Osama Bin Laden attacked the World Trade Center and killed two thousand people. I am sure no shwarma places were bombed in that attack. I live here in Israel and I know that if there are no police around, whether daytime and especially nighttime, and the um poor oppressed palestinians come across me, I am in danger. THat is not the case the other way around. THey may get checked more thoroughly than I before entering crowded places like the Central Bus Station or the Western Wall, but that is because they often bring bombs and guns with them in the hopes of fighting the "war to liberate palestine". You wouldn't survive one day living in Gaza even if you told them everything they wanted to hear. Not every culture breeds tolerance and respect for all mankind. Israel is an anomally in the region because it is the only real democracy. Look at what happened with the so called freeddom revolt in Egypt- when Linda Logan of (I believe Fox News) went to cover the story, they just sexually assualted her and she had to be flown back to a hospital in the US. In Syria there have been over 400 palestinians killed along with tens of thousands of Syrian civilians being beheaded- yea, beheaded like in medieval times- yet the world stays quiet. Even though the people of Gaza- which they only lost when they attacked Israel with the intention of destroying it and Israel returned it to them- (how much land did we Americans return to the Native Americans after we stole their land and broght them disease and exile?) they also supply Gaza with power, electricity, and even food even during the few days response from years of missile fire. Israel could have decimated Gaza and solved alot of future terror attacks but against much of the angry population calling for a stop to the terror, Israel agreed to a very unbeneficial ceasefire because unlike the people so so happily defend while throwing Israel to the flames (there's people - even children in Israel too-who knew!) they really really do not want anyone to die- but it is unfair, unjust, and dishonest to criticize Israel for trying to protect it's citizens, after months and years of increasing attacks by freaking missiles. My first day back after a trip to NY I saw palestinians in their early twenties walk by, and thought how nice it was to see such diversity. THan I sawa cat walk by their path and one reached out not to pet it, but to grab and pull it's tail so hard that it screamed and screamed and instead of letting it go, his friends and him just laughed at how funny this little small cat's pain was. Luckily the cat mustered enough strength to pull away because it was not being let go of. You may justify acts of terror, knife stabbings, suicide bombings, missile attacks etc and reasonable ways to show your displeasure with another country, but I guess that's where we differ. By the way, do you truly believe women have more rights in palestine than in Gaza, that they are respected as equal citizens? They kill their gay people and oppress their women. I think it was Syria that came out with a law a few months back forbidding women to drive because it was "immodest". Israel was created fair and square, it was apart of the territory called Palestine that belonged to many countries over the past thousand years or so, most recently Britain. pre-1948, there were roughly 500,000 Jews and 500,000 arabs living in that english territory. After the gas chambers and calculated murder of over 6 million Jews, the British, along with the U.S> and the rest of the UN countries decided that they would divide the British territory of Palestine into two countries. One for the Jewish half, called "Israel" and one for the Arab half, which probably would have gotten an Arab name except that by calling it "Palestine", there is a way to erase the memory of modern Israel by turning back the clock to a time when the region was known as Palestine. That's the British name for the area, not the arab one. As soon as the division was set and the creation of Israel began, 6 arab countries surrounding Israel with massive armies attacked the baby country, which was undeveloped. This included Syria, Jordan, and of course the impartial broker to the recent cease-fire, Egypt. It wasn't enough that they now too had their own country, but they needed to take away Israek's as well and annex it into their own. To the world's shock, Israel won and territories they captured during a defensive war became "disputed", as in all the other wars which have been Israel defending itself. Israel does not want any civilian casualties and they plead with residents to leave the areas they need to attack, because their leadership puts its military bases and weaponry in civilian homes and hospitals. the palestians have said publicly that they love death as much as Israel loves life. That is why when they captured 18 year old Israeli soldier Galid Shalit *who they did not lynch and put on camera like other captured Israeli soldiers) they traded him to Israel only for 2,000 imprisoned terrorists. For every successful terror attack 9 are thwarted. The day of the cease-fire agreement the palestinian elected terror group Hamas claimed responsibility for blowing up a bus in Tel Aviv. The same day in Jerusalem, where I live, they found a bomb on the train and thankfully no one was harmed. Machavelli once posed the question in The Prince "Do the ends justify the means"? You may justify their attacks on civilians from any political lens you want but Israel has not just the right- but the responsibility to defend itself- which includes their Arab-Israeli citizens. Go enjoy your shwarma and stop blaming Israel for wanting a terror-free life. In response to: http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=9221
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Nov 28, 2012 04:34
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A person on my friends list posted the Hobby Lobby thing earlier claiming, "I support religious freedom!". So I asked them how Hobby Lobby pushing their religious views on their employees is freedom. And I got this short rant in return!quote:Employees don't have to work there...I would not choose to work for an organization that doesn't share my views (I.e. a residency program that forces me to write for the morning after pill, etc). Furthermore, it's a privately owned company that should not be forced by the government to provide services it does not fundamentally agree with. It's not about pushing their views, it's about their views being respected and protected.
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Nov 28, 2012 04:38
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The abortion/pill side of the debate isn't even actually a moral one for the corporations. It's a goddamn scapegoat for not wanting to foot the bill for decent healthcare for their employees. God forbid it eat into the margins. And it's another shining example of how the rich white business men can so easily get the poor sickly impoverished classes to side with them, and ultimately against their own self interests, by simply injecting a theme of religious fear into it. edit; And companies like Papa Johns don't actually HAVE to raise the prices on pizza. They can just not make as much profit each year. $50 million profit or $42 million profit and our employees can go to the doctor without being terrified of bankruptcy? Wait nevermind...I forgot we've cultivated such an environment of capitalism that corporations have a legally binding contract with their shareholders to maximize profits the best the can! oh what a wonderful world BonoMan fucked around with this message at 09:44 on Nov 28, 2012 |
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Nov 28, 2012 04:46
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Defenestration posted:In response to: http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=9221 I wish I had it in me to tear that apart point by point, but I know it would be a wasted effort.
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Nov 28, 2012 04:57
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Funny how these businesses are suddenly Catholic when it comes to another person's body, even if that person is not Catholic, but they're not Catholic when it comes to the Church's other teachings and practices.
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Nov 28, 2012 07:48
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constantIllusion posted:Funny how these businesses are suddenly Catholic when it comes to another person's body, even if that person is not Catholic, but they're not Catholic when it comes to the Church's other teachings and practices. Pretty much. It can always be countered with "if Hobby Lobby is to adhere so strictly to the tenets of Christ then I can only assume they are donating all of their proceeds to the poor?"
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Nov 28, 2012 09:48
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BonoMan posted:Pretty much. It can always be countered with "if Hobby Lobby is to adhere so strictly to the tenets of Christ then I can only assume they are donating all of their proceeds to the poor?" If they want to adhere to Leviticus, they shouldn't be holding their employee's wages overnight. Payday is every two weeks? HERETICS!
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Nov 28, 2012 11:54
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If it's on the onus of employees to not work for a company that doesn't share their religious views, companies like Hobby Lobby are free to get the gently caress out this country and open up shop in a country that supports theirs.
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Nov 28, 2012 14:31
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My mom: we should buy things made in sweatshops by children cause if we don't then the factory will have to close and they won't have a job or make any money! They would die if I didn't buy these things!
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Nov 28, 2012 14:38
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Radish posted:If it's on the onus of employees to not work for a company that doesn't share their religious views, companies like Hobby Lobby are free to get the gently caress out this country and open up shop in a country that supports theirs. This was pretty much my thought. If I'm "free to work somewhere else" then I guess they're "free to run their business somewhere else". Or they could just stop being douches. If providing their employees with insurance that covers The Pill keeps them up at night, then fine, don't provide them insurance. Just give the employee the money that would have been spent on the premiums, minus the tax levied by Obamacare. They can pick their own insurance on the Exchange, and Hobby Lobby doesn't have to worry about it anymore, and it costs them the same as what they spend on insurance now. Also, why hasn't this turned into a bigger fight. I mean, the law requires that everyone has insurance, and all the insurance plans on the Exchange will have to cover this stuff; and even if you don't use contraceptives, your premium is going to help pay for someone else's. Not that this is any better argument, since in reality you spend money all the time that's going to wind up in someone else's paycheck that they're going to use to pay for an abortion. There's really no getting out of it unless you cut yourself off from society completely; its almost as if we're all interconnected. But at least this seems to be a more direct "attack" on religious freedom, rather than going after employers.
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Nov 28, 2012 15:23
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FateoMcSkippy posted:My mom: we should buy things made in sweatshops by children cause if we don't then the factory will have to close and they won't have a job or make any money! They would die if I didn't buy these things! I actually got this taught in a university level Business Ethics class.
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Nov 28, 2012 15:45
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I want to open a business and claim I am morally against meat-eating, and argue that my employees should not be allowed to eat meat with the money I pay them.
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Nov 28, 2012 15:49
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Just go full Ford, hire people to break into their houses to be sure nothing immoral is happening.
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Nov 28, 2012 16:58
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constantIllusion posted:Funny how these businesses are suddenly Catholic when it comes to another person's body, even if that person is not Catholic, but they're not Catholic when it comes to the Church's other teachings and practices.
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Nov 28, 2012 17:34
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Glitterbomber posted:Just go full Ford, hire people to break into their houses to be sure nothing immoral is happening.
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Nov 28, 2012 17:38
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Guilty Spork posted:The impression I get is that there's a core of Catholics who find a good mix of human pragmatism and actually following what the church has to say. Conservative Catholics have to ignore both pragmatism and some church teachings in order to be that conservative, or else they would, for example, not support the death penalty. Not all conservative Catholics support the death penalty. All you need for conservatism is hating abortion, gay marriage, and welfare. e: drat autocorrect. Mornacale fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Nov 28, 2012 |
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Nov 28, 2012 19:44
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Rodnik's friend posted:his Fuel-less generator isn't made up. Nor the fact that he DID in fact pull energy out of the Ionosphere WITHOUT using power. Like I said, provide proof his fuel-less generator was "made up" as well as him not pulling energy out of the ionosphere. You seem so sure without any proof of what you say. Especially when history, the American Energy Association and his own documented information proves you to be in the wrong. This make you the "Conspiracy theorist".
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Nov 28, 2012 21:21
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Herman Merman posted:Improper, unnecessary capitalization of "scientific" terms is a great way to spot a person who's not exactly confident in his subject matter. There's also the problem of being unable to prove a negative. How are you supposed to prove that it isnt made up, or that it didn't create energy... I hate people. edit: some good questions to show him he doesn't know anything: 1. ask him to define energy and to define power and then ask what makes them different. 2. ask him how the power generated from this device was used to do work. 3. ask him to demonstrate the concept by building a working model. or even a concept drawing. Heck Yes! Loam! fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Nov 28, 2012 |
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Nov 28, 2012 21:46
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Hey can someone point me to that website listing all the lovely arguments people use on the internet? It was like a list of fallacies people make during arguements like "Oh, you got emotional? heh looks like I win." This seemed like the best thread to ask in. Chexoid fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Nov 28, 2012 |
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Nov 28, 2012 21:57
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
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Nov 28, 2012 22:07
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quote:2. ask him how the power generated from this device was used to do work. And if it did, would it generate enough to be worth building and running? I can show you a whole selection of devices that draw "free" energy from the sun. Similarly, I am sure you could make a device that could draw usable power from the ionosphere (or whatever he said) - I mean, lightning exists, and there's probably all sorts of charge separations and what not you could theoretically exploit. But if Tesla was anywhere close to viability, he would have stuck with the idea. There's a reason why history isn't full of super-duper lost technologies (though admittedly there are some): technologies that provide value tend to attract interest and spawn imitations and generally not get forgotten.
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Nov 28, 2012 22:16
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jmzero posted:And if it did, would it generate enough to be worth building and running? I agree with this, but the biggest counter example happens to be a pretty big one. Steam power was discovered in Roman times, and was never realized as a source of work. it was just a novelty. it wasn't until the 1700's that it was re-discovered as a way to do work. Things are lost to history quite regularly, but I doubt that Tesla's tower should be included in that list.
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Nov 28, 2012 22:31
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I remember there was an episode of Mythbusters where they managed to pull energy straight out of the air (or, rather, the radio signals therein) using a giant radio antenna. It technically worked - they generated a current, but it was barely detectable, even with a hundred-foot antenna. So you can generate energy from thin air, it's just massively inefficient compared to e.g. sunlight or wind. (Did that episode really happen, or did I just imagine it?)
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Nov 28, 2012 22:37
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Am I mean for thinking that "going Ford" would be a lot more hilarious than "going Galt"? I'd pay to watch that movie. Going Ford would be way more fun to watch, yea, because Ford was loving nutso. Going Galt would just involve watching rich people slowly starve while angrily wondering where the help is, going Ford involves watching one rich dude start a literal secret police force to make sure no one is smoking or drinking in their own homes, and also legitimately supporting Nazi Germany, even during the war.
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Nov 28, 2012 22:45
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Sword of Chomsky posted:I agree with this, but the biggest counter example happens to be a pretty big one. Steam power was discovered in Roman times, and was never realized as a source of work. it was just a novelty. it wasn't until the 1700's that it was re-discovered as a way to do work.
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Nov 28, 2012 22:47
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I honestly have no idea where to even start with this. http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/make_those_lazy_job_creators_pay_T37Nt3GwdcATnO7bGs3xnM Like I get that the NY Post is awful, but this one full on insane strawman.
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