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Zwabu posted:With respect to Benghazi-gate, it would be necessary to know what is actually being alleged amidst all the sound and fury. You forgot Mustard-gate. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAvq12Sa3VE I can't believe the right let that one go so easily!
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Nov 29, 2012 17:17
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Michael Savage is back and it's so glorious. He's the best conservative radio personality ever. Such an angry, despicable schmuck and his sex advice is brilliant. This is old, but humorous: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foii1N0Um4Q
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Nov 29, 2012 18:03
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Everyone forgets 'Beergate', where the prez sat down to have a beer with that college professor and the cop who arrested him for trying to get in his own house.
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Nov 29, 2012 18:36
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The christianity not a religion thing sounds like the old "not into organized religion" bit people tend to like. Or being a fan of Jesus and saying its a relationship, not a religion. Gotta love the war on christmas
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Nov 29, 2012 18:43
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FlamingLiberal posted:Everyone forgets 'Beergate', where the prez sat down to have a beer with that college professor and the cop who arrested him for trying to get in his own house. Also, remember that Obama said the Police Department who arrested the man "acted stupidly" in handling the whole incident which meant that Obama said all police officers are stupid and he hates America.
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Nov 29, 2012 18:51
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FlamingLiberal posted:Everyone forgets 'Beergate', where the prez sat down to have a beer with that college professor and the cop who arrested him for trying to get in his own house. It always amuses me to think that one of the reasons many people cited as why they voted for GWB--who was an alcoholic and coke addict before getting a heavy dose of Jesus, like a lot of recovering addicts do--was because they felt like he was a guy they could have a beer with. Fast-forward to today and the current president, a guy you could actually have a beer with, is the most reviled person on Earth in their eyes. 
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Nov 29, 2012 19:37
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Forget have a beer with, Obama is a president I could smoke a blunt with.
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Nov 29, 2012 19:49
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Warchicken posted:Forget have a beer with, Obama is a president I could smoke a blunt with. They really missed out on a chance to raise money for the campaign. "Contribute a thousand dollars and join the Choom Gang for a special ceremony in the White House rec room!"
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Nov 29, 2012 19:52
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In a more lighthearted vein, here's Megyn Kelly's reaction to a brand new Fox News "Breaking News" alert graphic.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKzJs_Tf5lM
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Nov 29, 2012 21:37
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My local AM radio parrot was going on about how "The top 1% pay 40% of the taxes overall and 60% of Federal Income Taxes!!!!" this morning. Also, apparently raising the top tax rate causes middle class people to shoulder a larger % of the tax burden? I think her reasoning for this was that if you try to charge rich people more in taxes, they'll ramp up their tax evasion schemes to the point where they'll somehow be paying less in taxes than before.  Is this some new conservative meme I haven't caught wind of yet or my local crazy person makin' up stories? Oh and they later, after spending about 10 minutes railing against raising taxes on the rich (and explaining how it was class warfare and unfair to punish the most successful in our society with higher taxes  ), they criticized Obama because the income of the top 1% of earners increased by 70% (their words, obviously) while income gains stagnated for the middle class. The mental gymnastics are simply astounding.
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Nov 29, 2012 21:38
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Monkey Fracas posted:Is this some new conservative meme I haven't caught wind of yet or my local crazy person makin' up stories? It sounds like they're making up poo poo in yet another effort to try and convince people that--despite 20 years of Republican presidencies that definitively proved otherwise--trickle-down economics really does work! 
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Nov 29, 2012 21:41
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Unzip and Attack posted:Also, remember that Obama said the Police Department who arrested the man "acted stupidly" in handling the whole incident which meant that Obama said all police officers are stupid and he hates America. I've had this unironically posited to me on more than one occasion. Monkey Fracas posted:My local AM radio parrot was going on about how "The top 1% pay 40% of the taxes overall and 60% of Federal Income Taxes!!!!" this morning. This is a constant meme they push, but they never point out that it's because that those people make 90-95% of the loving money. I tried to illustrate this once to a co-worker by drawing a pie, starting with cutting 90% out of it and then showing him the leftover slice that the rest of us get. I was like, "look at this piece of pie. This is what they have us arguing over." It wouldn't matter if you taxed that little tiny piece at 99%. Monkey Fracas posted:Also, apparently raising the top tax rate causes middle class people to shoulder a larger % of the tax burden? I think her reasoning for this was that if you try to charge rich people more in taxes, they'll ramp up their tax evasion schemes to the point where they'll somehow be paying less in taxes than before. Their argument is that if you tax the "job creators" and such that the costs will just be passed onto us anyway because they'll just raise prices to offset their tax increases and penalties - and they may be right - but this flies in the face of their arguments about how no one will want to make $250,001 because they don't understand progressive taxation. It also ignores the fact if people have more money in their pockets, they tend to spend on things that benefit the people that are already rich in the first place so they usually get it all back anyway in addition to having a healthier society and economy and a happier workforce.
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Nov 29, 2012 22:05
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BiggerBoat posted:Their argument is that if you tax the "job creators" and such that the costs will just be passed onto us anyway because they'll just raise prices to offset their tax increases and penalties - and they may be right - but this flies in the face of their arguments about how no one will want to make $250,001 because they don't understand progressive taxation. It also ignores the fact if people have more money in their pockets, they tend to spend on things that benefit the people that are already rich in the first place so they usually get it all back anyway in addition to having a healthier society and economy and a happier workforce. I hate to admit it, but until a month ago I didn't understand how the marginal tax rate system worked. This is terrible on my part, even worse that it is so widespread, and absolutely astounding that plenty 250k + earners don't get this concept. This obviously has a large effect on discussions regarding tax reform. Add this to the fabricated idea that "traditional American values" consist of Free Enterprise and Bootstraps as opposed to the historical reality of high marginal tax rates and a strong safety net and you have a recipe for idiocy. We can't have a true national dialogue on these issues because we, as a population, do not understand how tax rates work and the historical reasons for American success. It amazes me how well the conservative bloc has been able to convince the American people that the 34% top tax rate is too high.
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Nov 29, 2012 23:11
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I wish there was more of an effort to teach that stuff. I personally learned about the marginal tax rates on this forum back in 2005 or so but never had it really explained before. My family and half my co workers who are mostly all college educated or earn decent salaries don't understand it some of which have been paying taxes for forty years. I have no idea why it seems like there's no movement to dispel the ridiculous "earn more but get less because of taxes" lie that's really prevalent. I mean I understand why conservatives propagate the notion that increased upper income tax brackets hurt people that barely reach them, but it doesn't seem like any realy voices on the left ever touch it when it should taught on PBS kids shows. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Nov 29, 2012 |
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Nov 29, 2012 23:16
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I'm another idiot who only learned how marginal tax rates work because of this forum some time ago. That was after taking a consumer economics and intro to economics classes in high school and macroeconomics 101 at university. The gently caress.
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Nov 29, 2012 23:20
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Amused to Death posted:I'm another idiot who only learned how marginal tax rates work because of this forum some time ago. That was after taking a consumer economics and intro to economics classes in high school and macroeconomics 101 at university. The gently caress. I also learned on the forums. It's sad how I managed to get to 27 and not know this (although I was in the military, easy taxes). Some goons were kind enough to teach me, although a few were total jerks and made fun of me (which I totally deserved).
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Nov 29, 2012 23:24
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There was a thread on here for a while about marginal tax rates because it kept inevitably coming up in every political thread and a disturbingly small percentage of people seemed to understand how it works. I'll give conservatives this much: our tax code is definitely way too complicated and dense. The fact that so few people, even reasonably successful and presumably intelligent ones, don't understand how it works and need to hire "experts" to sort it all out once a year is testament to this fact. Any attempt to simplify it in any way that's fair would be a great idea for either political party, but that's hard to do when one side of the idea is screaming from the rooftops that half the country is full of freeloaders who pay nothing and voted for Santa Claus. BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Nov 29, 2012 |
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Nov 29, 2012 23:29
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A co-worker got angry with me when it became more and more obvious he didn't know how capital gains taxes worked after overhearing me complain they were way too low and I just acquiesced the point since it wasn't worth office drama being correct.
Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Nov 29, 2012 |
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Nov 29, 2012 23:30
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Radish posted:A co-worker got angry with me when it became more and more obvious he didn't know how capital gains taxes worked after overhearing me complain they were way too low and I just acquiesced the point since it wasn't worth office drama being correct. My Father once told me to never argue with an idiot because they will drag you down to their level and win due to experience. After that conversation I took his advice and stopped arguing with him. It made him very upset.
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Nov 29, 2012 23:35
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Radish posted:A co-worker got angry with me when it became more and more obvious he didn't know how capital gains taxes worked after overhearing me complain they were way too low and I just acquiesced the point since it wasn't worth office drama being correct. How did he figure it was too high? Also, where the gently caress do you work that a guy like this would make a scene?
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Nov 29, 2012 23:36
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BiggerBoat posted:There was a thread on here for a while about marginal tax rates because it kept inevitably coming up in every political thread and a disturbingly small percentage of people seemed to understand how it works. I'll give conservatives this much: our tax code is definitely way too complicated and dense. The fact that so few people, even reasonably successful and presumably intelligent ones, don't understand how it works and need to hire "experts" to srot it all out once a year it is testament to this fact. The tax system itself isn't that complicated in how it taxes income; the complicated part is when it comes time to give out exemptions from taxation or credits. Sure, they can have a simple tax system. Hope they enjoy not having any tax deductions! The tax system shouldn't be simplified, because people respond well to tax incentives and giving preferential treatment through tax credits or deductions can encourage good behavior. One of the biggest, if not the biggest "loopholes" is the mortgage interest deduction, and people will cry foul if they were forced to give that up.
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Nov 29, 2012 23:37
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Shipon posted:One of the biggest, if not the biggest "loopholes" is the mortgage interest deduction, and people will cry foul if they were forced to give that up. Ironically, much like the estate tax, this is another thing people have been duped into believing is really helping them when most of the benefits just go to the wealthy.
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Nov 29, 2012 23:40
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Amused to Death posted:Ironically, much like the estate tax, this is another thing people have been duped into believing is really helping them when most of the benefits just go to the wealthy. How is that a loophole and how does it benefit the wealthy?
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Nov 29, 2012 23:47
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Mitchicon posted:How is that a loophole and how does it benefit the wealthy? Many middle class families who buy homes at the median income level don't have enough of an interest payment to beat the standard deduction, so the deduction is virtually useless to them. But in high priced markets such as SF/LA/NY, the deduction can easily exceed 20k a year for high income households. I'd argue against keeping it in its present form and presenting it as a tax credit up to a certain level of interest that is capped at a middle class income, leaving higher earners unable to take advantage of it. Additionally, I'd limit it to first-time homebuyers only, since the primary goal of the deduction was to encourage homeownership by people on the edge of affordability (not sure I agree with this goal, since home ownership is a good way to wreck your finances even if you can "afford" the payment).
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Nov 29, 2012 23:50
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Is there a good easy to understand graphic that explains how marginal tax rates so I can print 1000 posters of to post around the town... You can explain it all you want but turning the pie explenation into a catchy poster would get the point across much more easily than trying to explain it in 10 min.
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Nov 30, 2012 00:05
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Shipon posted:Many middle class families who buy homes at the median income level don't have enough of an interest payment to beat the standard deduction, so the deduction is virtually useless to them. But in high priced markets such as SF/LA/NY, the deduction can easily exceed 20k a year for high income households. More importantly, you can claim the deduction on multiple properties, as long as you live in them for at least 2 weeks per year. Working class people don't typically own multiple homes.
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Nov 30, 2012 00:12
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If you're really curious and want to dig, I believe in the fiscal cliff thread someone posted a graph on what the deduction costs and where those costs are coming from. The bottom 1/2 of the nation basically doesn't get anything out of it, a small portion is going to the next 40%, and at the very top we're as usual hemorrhaging money to coddle millionaires.
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Nov 30, 2012 00:23
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Monkey Fracas posted:I think her reasoning for this was that if you try to charge rich people more in taxes, they'll ramp up their tax evasion schemes to the point where they'll somehow be paying less in taxes than before. This is actually true to some extent. Britain had top marginal tax rates over 80% until Thatcher and there was a lot of evasion and moving. I mean, the acid taking Beatles recorded Taxman because they were upset about it. But a 3% bump from 35 to 38%? No, that will not make a difference in tax evasion.
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Nov 30, 2012 00:36
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BlueBlazer posted:Is there a good easy to understand graphic that explains how marginal tax rates so I can print 1000 posters of to post around the town... http://www.gov.state.md.us/images/070919pie.gif Show them how taxing the small slice makes no difference at all - raising it or lowering it - and that the only thing to tax is the big giant part. The green is where all the money is, the red is what you and all of you friends and peers make combined and the black are the people too poor to live. edit: fixed image leaching into a link
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Nov 30, 2012 01:08
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BiggerBoat posted:http://www.gov.state.md.us/images/070919pie.gif Ah, but you see, your link has "gov" in the URL. *shuts off mind*
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Nov 30, 2012 02:11
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BiggerBoat posted:the black are the people too poor to live. Hey, it's the unspoken Republican endgame!
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Nov 30, 2012 02:16
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Amused to Death posted:If you're really curious and want to dig, I believe in the fiscal cliff thread someone posted a graph on what the deduction costs and where those costs are coming from. The bottom 1/2 of the nation basically doesn't get anything out of it, a small portion is going to the next 40%, and at the very top we're as usual hemorrhaging money to coddle millionaires. Gotta keep them millionaires safe to create jobs. "a real opinion in every editorial in every newspaper ever". yep.
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Nov 30, 2012 02:20
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AsInHowe posted:Hey, it's the unspoken Republican endgame! It leaves out 'women literally forced to walk around naked and submit for sex and baby-factory duty at all times', though.
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Nov 30, 2012 03:38
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Kiwi Bigtree posted:The number of DSLs among Male Republicans is fascinating. I'm actually very interested in this.
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Nov 30, 2012 05:52
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BlueBlazer posted:Is there a good easy to understand graphic that explains how marginal tax rates so I can print 1000 posters of to post around the town... If your sparring partner insists on a concrete example, you can say that if you earn $260,000, then you owe lower rates on $250,000 and the higher rate on $10,000. Or if you earn $251,000, then you owe lower rates on $250,000 and the higher rate on $1,000. Or if you earn $250,001, then you owe lower rates on $250,000 and the higher rate on $1. Or if you earn $250,000.01, then you owe lower rates on $250,000 and the higher rate on 1¢. This takes well under ten minutes to get across, honest guv, and if the other person refuses to see things this way then he/she/it can be dismissed as willfully ignorant.
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Nov 30, 2012 09:03
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Biggest mistake I make regarding marginal tax rates is assuming people already understand. Most people I talk to about it get it if they don't accuse me of lying. How you can pay taxes once and not know how they work is beyond me I can see why it's so easy for the conservative propaganda machine to mislead people.
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Nov 30, 2012 09:28
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Monkey Fracas posted:Biggest mistake I make regarding marginal tax rates is assuming people already understand. Most people I talk to about it get it if they don't accuse me of lying. How you can pay taxes once and not know how they work is beyond me Dunno about anybody else, but I file a 1040-EZ and I just compare my income to the chart. Filling out a 1040 won't teach you about marginal utility. Now, my parents' accountant apparently sympathized with their desire to avoid the $250K+ tax hike, so I'm about 50% certain he's a loving thief of some description.
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Nov 30, 2012 09:33
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Monkey Fracas posted:Biggest mistake I make regarding marginal tax rates is assuming people already understand. Most people I talk to about it get it if they don't accuse me of lying. How you can pay taxes once and not know how they work is beyond me Because most people in this country don't make enough money for marginal rates to come into play. At least not to a significant degree. Its a simple concept to grasp when it is explained. Most folks are just unaware of it. And while there are many problems with our tax code, the marginal rate on income is not one of them. Its a fair, progressive system. Its only problem with it is the brackets, which haven't been updated in... 70 some odd years? I remember reading a chart that showed how $250,000 back in the 30s or 40s was worth around $2 million in today's dollars.
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Nov 30, 2012 10:00
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Pope Guilty posted:Now, my parents' accountant apparently sympathized with their desire to avoid the $250K+ tax hike, so I'm about 50% certain he's a loving thief of some description. Either that or he is sick of explaining it and is just saying whatever is easiest to keep them as clients.
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Nov 30, 2012 11:45
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So am I correct in assuming that the people who don't understand marginal tax rates believe that the way it works is, once you hit a higher bracket, all of your earnings are taxed at that higher rate? That's the only way I can imagine that this confusion could play out. Of course the folks who actually make enough to be in the higher brackets understand this, right? If you make that much money and believe you could potentially be subject to a higher rate, you would do the research to find out if that's true or not, right? Or is research a pussy liberal idea? Is math and tax policy now a "gut" thing, too?
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Nov 30, 2012 12:16
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