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Baruch Obamawitz posted:LotR not WotR, fwiw, but ok Never played WotR
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Nov 30, 2012 23:41
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I don't know why the Lord of the Rings game isn't more popular. The rules are really solid and the miniatures are gorgeous. It's also way faster to set up than Warhammer Fantasy.
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Dec 2, 2012 14:24
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Haraksha posted:I don't know why the Lord of the Rings game isn't more popular. The rules are really solid and the miniatures are gorgeous. It's also way faster to set up than Warhammer Fantasy. There was a huge backlash from Fantasy and 40K players, as they felt that LotR "stole" resources from the other games. It was pushed very hard in White Dwarf, eating up half the magazine, and people bitched endlessly that it delayed other releases. The reality was that the game earned GW tons and tons of money, and it gave them the capital that enabled them to start releasing all the huge plastic kits for WHFB and 40K. The game had a separate team and didn't really have an effect on the other release schedules. But dammit, it took up half of an already crappy magazine, so of course the grogs had to hate on it. LotR sold a lot of minis while the movies were out, but it didn't catch that many loyal GW gamers. I've been fiddling with a medieval version of the LotR rules, sort of like the Western version, and my experience is that it works slightly better than Mordheim, but is still not exactly what I want from a skirmish game. However, I'm not good enough at game design to really put my thumb on what's missing.
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Dec 2, 2012 17:34
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I think there was a lot of fear from the WFB and 40K crowd that when LotR came out and was popular that GW would drop everything else and rally around that. Neither WFB nor especially 40K is used to not being the focus of GW for more than a month or two and when LotR didn't just go away after the big box and first expansion, people were scared.
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Dec 2, 2012 19:59
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I resisted it out of spite for years mainly because of the scale difference but eventually tried it and it's great.
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Dec 2, 2012 20:33
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I like most of what the Coreheim guys did with the game, except for their creepy hatred of Sisters of Sigmar. Women fighting instead of being raped by demons while I masturbate? NOT IF I HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT! 
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Dec 2, 2012 20:49
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Holy poo poo what's wrong with that guy?
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Dec 2, 2012 21:26
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moths posted:Holy poo poo what's wrong with that guy? I'm sure we all would have found that hilarious when we were 14 years old too.
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Dec 2, 2012 21:36
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That's seriously going to keep me from ever playing Coreheim.
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Dec 2, 2012 21:57
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moths posted:Holy poo poo what's wrong with that guy? It's a terrible joke based upon all the emails he got about adding different warbands to his homebrew version of Mordheim. Coreheim was designed to be a highly balanced version of the game so he only ever wrote rules for a few races. Interestingly the same team are writing this now: http://heroheim.com/
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Dec 3, 2012 01:01
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LotR is so much fun, I'm thinking of doing a kilogram variant based on zone mortalis terrain
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Dec 3, 2012 01:42
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Baruch Obamawitz posted:LotR is so much fun, I'm thinking of doing a kilogram variant based on zone mortalis terrain Speaking of LOTR, did you want those minis?
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Dec 3, 2012 01:53
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lilljonas posted:There was a huge backlash from Fantasy and 40K players, as they felt that LotR "stole" resources from the other games. It was pushed very hard in White Dwarf, eating up half the magazine, and people bitched endlessly that it delayed other releases. I remember at the time hearing that GW couldn't afford to not buy the rights to produce a LotR tabletop game, especially when they have so many competitors who would be keen as hell to sink their teeth into it. Kind of a damned if they do and damned if they don't approach. Could anyone possibly imagine the UK's biggest wargames / model producer not having the licence? Nevermind the money it brought in, it probably proved to be a great feeder to 40k and Fantasy, in a similar vein to Heroquest / Space Crusade. Get the young 'uns hooked on a simple fantasy game (massively helped by the popularity of the films), get them in the store and expose them to the other games lines, blammo. I really rather like the ruleset from what I've read of it, but no one local to me plays and I have a hundred and one other games I've invested time and money into. Maybe one day though v  v (ask me again in two weeks time when the film's come out and I'm all OMG MUST HAVE HOBBIT RELATED MODEL SHENANIGANS and storm off down to my LGS for some sweet sweet hairy feet and beard action)
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Dec 3, 2012 17:40
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Indolent Bastard posted:Speaking of LOTR, did you want those minis? nah, I think I'm gonna go dwarves
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Dec 3, 2012 17:43
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Baruch Obamawitz posted:nah, I think I'm gonna go dwarves No problem. Anyone else interested in these? 
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Dec 3, 2012 18:12
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dishwasherlove posted:Basically they brand everything as The Hobbit to cash in on the IP. Hopefully when all the films are past 8 years from now they will just Who are we kidding. They'll just abandon everything for another shiny IP or a bunch of crappy boardgames.
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Dec 3, 2012 18:18
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Been thinking about ways to make Armour a) more useful and b) more interesting in Mordheim. I got to thinking: there's all different types of armour and Mordheim is a skirmish game so you can afford to go into more detail than just Light/Heavy/Magic Dwarf armours. So with that in mind, I decided on a few general starting points. 1. Armour is currently way too expensive. I started with a flat reduction of 25% on all armour costs but have changed it on a case by case basis. 2. I will still have helmets not confer an armour save bonus, and shields will remain as they are for now. 3. To balance these changes, any model which wears no armour at all has a +1 bonus to initiative. 4. Only the strength of the wielder modifies armour saves, so missile weapons with a set strength do not, and bonus strength from close combat weapons doesn't either - different armour and weapon types make up for this. 5. Blackpowder weapons that have rules for piercing armour retain this property regardless of the armour type they are being fired at. quote:Leather or padded armour Further ideas I was considering are different types of helmet (eg half or full helm) and also changing shields. I was thinking that shields should give a bonus against missile attacks to the front arc and also give a better save in combat (shields are loving handy). Given how prevalent the two hand weapons tactic is I think those changes wouldn't be too severe... maybe. Squibsy fucked around with this message at 15:14 on Dec 4, 2012 |
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Dec 4, 2012 15:12
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I wonder how hard it would be to convert The Hobbit/LotR skirmish game to use Warhammer factions and stats?
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Dec 4, 2012 16:43
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I've thought about it a bit. Not too hard, surely - at least for more standard rank and file stuff. The thing I'd have trouble balancing is point values (as you may be able to tell from my suggested rules up there ^^^) Magic though would be tricky, as the LOTR magic seems a lot less about fuckoff nuke spells and is more about relatively subtle effects. The biggest problem for me would be all the models needing round bases ... although I've always thought Mordheim should use round bases as well. I get a bit OCD about using matching bases!
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Dec 4, 2012 17:05
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ineptmule posted:I've thought about it a bit. Not too hard, surely - at least for more standard rank and file stuff. The thing I'd have trouble balancing is point values (as you may be able to tell from my suggested rules up there ^^^) That's okay, I'd just dump the Warhammer magic system entirely because its awful, especially for a skirmish game. I guess you'd have to re-point every trooper in warhammer which would be a pain in the rear end but if you had a good formula to do it, it might not be so bad.
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Dec 4, 2012 17:30
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I definitely dig the idea. Skirmish level Warhammer has always appealed to me, and the LOTR system is really good. I would love to have some games like this. I can see Black Orcs (which are my favourite thing pretty much) being great, having what is essentially Gimli's "Axes of the Dwarves" rule already. Having the choice of what weapons to use can be even more important in LOTR. Edit: Hmm. You'd have to be careful with the Orc choppas rule. Every turn sees the start of new combat so +1 strength in the first round is too good. Maybe only when charging?
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Dec 4, 2012 17:50
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I really want to try to figure out a skirmish 40k game. Like Necromunda, but with space marines too. Space Hulk did it, right?
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Dec 4, 2012 18:07
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Baruch Obamawitz posted:I really want to try to figure out a skirmish 40k game. Like Necromunda, but with space marines too. Space Hulk did it, right? This was linked way, way back in the thread, and it looks pretty sweet: In The Emperor's Name! Seems to borrow from Necromunda/Mordheim and Inquisitor, but with a new ruleset that looks pretty solid at a glance, though I've not played it myself.
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Dec 4, 2012 18:23
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Nebalebadingdong posted:I wonder how hard it would be to convert The Hobbit/LotR skirmish game to use Warhammer factions and stats? Just done a quick and dirty conversion of Orc Boyz and Goblins into LOTR based on "average" stats in both game systems. Assumptions: WFB average stats: M4 WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 LD7 LOTR average stats: Mov6 F3/4+ S3 D3 A1 W1 C3 --- Orc Boy: average stats except for T4 (high) I2 (low) with light armour so his LOTR stats become Mov5 (because of low I) F3/4+ S3 D5 (because of high T and light armour) A1 W1 C3 he has the Choppas rule so I think he should get +1S when charging. Orcs can be upgraded to Big 'Uns in a similar to lots of LOTR troops such as Easterling Black Dragons, getting +1 to F and S. Goblin: average stats except for WS2 (low) I2 (low) and LD6 (low) with light armour so his LOTR stats become Mov5 F2/4+ S3 D4 (because of light armour) A1 W1 C2 Night Goblin: average stats except for WS2 (low) and LD5 (very low) with no armour so his LOTR stats become Mov6 F2/4+ S3 D3 A1 W1 C1 all the above suffer from Animosity which is pretty easy to convert, you just need to adapt it so it works on a per model basis rather than per unit. --- Not sure about converting a low Initiative into a penalty to Mov, but there's not another stat that it could work for. It could become a penalty to Fight value, which is more in keeping with the function of Initiative in WFB, but fiddling with Fight values when they are so low anyway seems a bit dangerous. What do you think?
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Dec 4, 2012 18:39
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ineptmule posted:Just done a quick and dirty conversion of Orc Boyz and Goblins into LOTR based on "average" stats in both game systems. Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with the Hobbit/LotR game except what people have talked about here, so I can't really help you.  From what you posted it looks like it could be a lot of work
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Dec 4, 2012 18:46
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I'm not sure, it wouldn't be too bad. To some extent though I wonder whether it's all necessary - I was just doing it for Black Orcs and I basically just wrote up the stats for Uruk-Hai. You could probably spend half the time converting the rules and just proxy stuff as existing things within the game system. Although then you would lose some of the Warhammer flavour.
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Dec 4, 2012 18:52
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ineptmule posted:I'm not sure, it wouldn't be too bad. To some extent though I wonder whether it's all necessary - I was just doing it for Black Orcs and I basically just wrote up the stats for Uruk-Hai. You could probably spend half the time converting the rules and just proxy stuff as existing things within the game system. I think that's fine. You could probably drop unused stats like Initiative completely and maybe create a special rule for troops that have unusually high reflexes (high elves)
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Dec 4, 2012 18:59
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I'd just take I and WS together when determining F
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Dec 4, 2012 19:05
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Baruch Obamawitz posted:I'd just take I and WS together when determining F I thought about that but I don't think orcs should end up with Fight 2 or something due to their lower I. Should goblins with WS2 and I2 end up with F1?
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Dec 4, 2012 19:40
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I think you're approaching it wrong. Warhammer's stats are generalizations that work over large units. A unit of 30 elves will have a higher initiative than a unit of 30 orcs, but this breaks down on the skirmish level (both mechanics and fluffwise). You need to come up with stats/special rules that captures the slow but brutal fighting of an orc, the low cunning of the goblin, and the quick and disciplined elf, rather than trying to capture the "I = 2". Unfortunately, this probably can't be done with a simple formula.
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Dec 4, 2012 19:47
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ineptmule posted:I thought about that but I don't think orcs should end up with Fight 2 or something due to their lower I. Should goblins with WS2 and I2 end up with F1? Sure, but they should be like 2 points each also
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Dec 4, 2012 19:55
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I mean, remember what Fight does in LotR: it's a tie-breaker. Given that most of the time you'd be rolling off 2 or 3 dice vs. 1 by ganging up multiple goblins on a single elf, one poor roll for the elf and the goblins get a chance to kill it.
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Dec 4, 2012 19:58
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Also remember the mechanics of losing a fight in LotR: running away and getting stabbed in the back. Goblins are more likely to run away if evenly matched so that's accurate. A human fighting three goblins ( assume equal points) can only kill one per turn. Furthermore due to numbers, the goblins are likely to trap the human and get double strikes if they win.
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Dec 4, 2012 20:00
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Hobbits are 3 points with pretty lovely stats, but F2 at least I think. 2 points for F1 wouldn't be terrible.
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Dec 4, 2012 20:01
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Ideally the rules of a gaming system should capture something about the flavor of the world. I think it doesn't make much sense to convert warhammer to LotR because the warhammer world has totally different flavor. So you either have to make the warhammer stuff fit with LotR mechanics - and in doing so rob them of their warhammerish flavor - or you try to preserve their warhammerish flavor, and in doing so overrun the LotR flavor with a bunch of stuff that doesn't belong there. e. Just as a ferexample: Orcs seem more straightforward because of course there's things in Tolkien called orcs. But really they bear little resemblance to warhammer orcs. And when you get into vampires, zombies, egyptian skeletons, and rat-men? You're way off the reservation and those army's high reliance on magic means they'll either lose all their capability, or lose all their flavor (or probably both) in the conversion. This is of course assuming that the rules of LotR do capture something of the feel of that setting, which I don't actually know myself since I've not seen the LotR rules at all beyond what's in this thread. Also Baruch, posts have edit buttons for a reason. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Dec 4, 2012 |
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Dec 4, 2012 20:06
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Leperflesh: I see you what you're saying but I don't feel that the LOTR ruleset represents the spirit of the LOTR world really, nor do I feel that about the WFB ruleset and the WFB world. I think that LOTR is a superior system for small scale battles, which clearly do have a place in the Warhammer lore. Baruch: I think you're heading on the right track, you make good points. The challenge is in finding the balance point between directly converting the rules based on the (honestly rather broad) similarities and in finding new ways within the system to represent the really characterful features. I think it can be done and is probably worth attempting. I'd certainly prefer to play LOTR rules with Warhammer fluff and models. Nebalebadingdong posted:I think you're approaching it wrong. Warhammer's stats are generalizations that work over large units. A unit of 30 elves will have a higher initiative than a unit of 30 orcs, but this breaks down on the skirmish level (both mechanics and fluffwise). Yep. As Baruch alluded to, the points values will also be really important.
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Dec 4, 2012 20:29
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ineptmule posted:Been thinking about ways to make Armour a) more useful and b) more interesting in Mordheim. I got to thinking: there's all different types of armour and Mordheim is a skirmish game so you can afford to go into more detail than just Light/Heavy/Magic Dwarf armours. Armour costs in Mordheim are absurd. In my home rules we used the following costs: Light armour . . . . . . . . . . 10 gc Heavy armour . . . . . . . . . . 25 gc Helmet . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .5 gc Even with those prices it wasn't that good an investment. I must admit though that we mostly played one-off games or 3-4 games with the same team, no longer campaigns. A 5+ save is not that great, especially not when you can easily be the victim of a flurry of attacks if you get singled out. Armour alone just isn't that good in Mordheim.
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Dec 4, 2012 22:48
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Today was tax return day, so I guess I just bought The Hobbit Escape from Goblin Town: Limited edition 
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Dec 5, 2012 13:07
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Baruch Obamawitz posted:I really want to try to figure out a skirmish 40k game. Like Necromunda, but with space marines too. Space Hulk did it, right? If you want something hyper detailed (hell, even if you don't, have a look and see if you can simplify it), you could do worse than check out the inquisitor rules and just play with 28mm models. Some guys at our local club were doing just that this week, looked interesting. Plus the rules are free so it can't hurt to have a look v v
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Dec 5, 2012 13:45
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enri posted:If you want something hyper detailed (hell, even if you don't, have a look and see if you can simplify it), you could do worse than check out the inquisitor rules and just play with 28mm models. Some guys at our local club were doing just that this week, looked interesting. Plus the rules are free so it can't hurt to have a look v Just as a point of warning - Inquisitor is designed to be games master led and doesn't remotely attempt to balance the various character types against each other (there are no points values!) so play this game with competitive people at your own peril... It's flippin brilliant though.
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Dec 5, 2012 15:20
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