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euphronius posted:Nothing in there sounds excessive to me. High yes but not excessive. Depends a lot on your location. I know I am the one to blame for not discussing the costs before they went through with everything but charging me for the 3 hours roundtrip you took to drive to interview an officer and throwing a more expensive lawyer to represent me while you were on vacation seems too excessive. Not only that, but calling me every week or two to give me small updates on the progress of the case... "So far nothing yet, talked to the prosecutor, left a voicemail with the officiers, etc etc" dragging it on for minutes and charging me for that when it is completely unnecessary seems excessive. I just don't know. I am a young and poor unemployed college graduate who cannot find a god drat job and was not expecting this. I put aside my small savings that I've collected over the years that I was planning on buying a cheap car with but now I'm stuck with this bill because of two aggressive cops who had nothing better to do then wrongfully arrest me and lie on the police report over this bullshit obstruction of a public servant charge.
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Dec 4, 2012 01:50
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True story, in the state of Queensland in Australia, the "gay panic" defence actually exists, where if you claim that the person you killed was coming onto you, it is no longer murder, but manslaughter. This was successfully used as little as two years ago. Either this year they held an inquiry to see whether or not they should change or get rid of this law, and decided that no, it was acceptable to keep it.
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Dec 4, 2012 01:50
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Busy Bee posted:I know I am the one to blame for not discussing the costs before they went through with everything but charging me for the 3 hours roundtrip you took to drive to interview an officer and throwing a more expensive lawyer to represent me while you were on vacation seems too excessive. Not only that, but calling me every week or two to give me small updates on the progress of the case... "So far nothing yet, talked to the prosecutor, left a voicemail with the officiers, etc etc" dragging it on for minutes and charging me for that when it is completely unnecessary seems excessive. Everything you describe is perfectly normal lawyering.
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Dec 4, 2012 01:51
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Could Busy Bee sue the state or something for the fees?
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Dec 4, 2012 01:56
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euphronius posted:Everything you describe is perfectly normal lawyering. I've completed my community service and I have my final court date in a month or so to either take this to trial or show proof that I completed the community service to dismiss the charge. Can I just respectfully tell my lawyer that I cannot afford his services anymore and that I will just go in by myself and show the court proof that it's completed. Would that be out of line? zachol posted:Could Busy Bee sue the state or something for the fees? Ive wondered this as well. I was absolutely at no fault for my arrest. The officers blatantly gave contradicting and wrote flat out LIES in their police report and my lawyer was prepared to go to trial but I simply could not afford another $3000 for the trial. Busy Bee fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Dec 4, 2012 |
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Dec 4, 2012 01:56
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HookShot posted:True story, in the state of Queensland in Australia, the "gay panic" defence actually exists, where if you claim that the person you killed was coming onto you, it is no longer murder, but manslaughter. Provocation as a whole is a pretty dumb defence, in my opinion. edit: But as everything in law like this, it's far more complicated than just claiming the person was coming on to you and bingo it's no longer murder. algebra testes fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Dec 4, 2012 |
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Dec 4, 2012 02:32
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Is it seriously considered okay to negotiate a $250/hr rate with a client, then go on vacation and tell your client that your buddy Bill is going to cover for you, then bill the client $400/hr for Bill's time with no warning whatsoever? I need to become a lawyer. If I hosed around a design client like that I'd never get a job again for all the bad word-of-mouth that would cause.
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Dec 4, 2012 03:38
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Did the lawyer give you a ballpark estimate for what getting to each stage would cost?
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Dec 4, 2012 03:44
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Trials are a tremendous amount of preparation and work. 10,000$ for a not particularly complicated half day or one day trial is about what you'd expect with experienced counsel
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Dec 4, 2012 03:51
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Busy Bee, did you pay the attorney a big wad upfront with that car money? Or do you still owe a $10k bill? You can tell your lawyer that you want to attend the next one alone and that's fine and normal. If it's just turning in your community service sheet, you're fine solo. But if it's turning in that sheet then arguing and hoping the court dismisses it, then you'd want to stay the course and have the attorney there. It depends on if its a done deal or not, and you want to make drat sure.
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Dec 4, 2012 04:00
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EAT THE EGGS RICOLA posted:Did the lawyer give you a ballpark estimate for what getting to each stage would cost? No. woozle wuzzle posted:Busy Bee, did you pay the attorney a big wad upfront with that car money? Or do you still owe a $10k bill? I have a $10k bill. Well what happened was that during the last hearing to set the trial date, the prosecutor talked to my lawyer and offered us X amount of community service hours to have the case dismissed. Even with that news, I was immensely pissed off. Not only do the two rear end in a top hat cops get to walk off with absolutely no accountability. I just spent close to $10,000 to just have the prosecutor give me X amount of community service hours to get it dismissed. I don't know, it just ticked me off so I wasn't able to give a concrete decision at that point, so my lawyer just set the next court date a few months in advance so I could have time to decide. Funny thing was, my lawyer was going on about how this is great news for everyone: we don't have to go to trial and you just have to do X amount of community service hours and its dismissed! Yes.... but I didn't do anything wrong... I was wrongfully arrested... and the community service hours that I could do is the same amount of hours you have spent on this case and charging me $10,000 for.... I definitely think I will talk to my lawyer about some of the excessive charges, especially the one where I was charged more while my main lawyer was on vacation. I just cannot justify how that would be okay. Lastly, is there any way I can have the state pay for my lawyer fees? At this point, if I knew it was going to cost this much, I would have gone forward in a different way especially if I knew that my lawyer was going to milk every single opportunity he had to charge me for his $250/hr fee... including mileage to get to court and driving 3 hours roundtrip without my approval to interview someone. I understand the $250/hr fee when doing legal research or writing up a trial brief and what not, but I just don't understand how driving and sitting around court can justify that cost. It is what it is I guess. I learn from my mistakes. ibntumart posted:Did you and your lawyer sign a contract that set forth the scope of your lawyer's services and the fee agreement? I signed off on a form that said his hourly rate was $250/hr. As mentioned previously, I did not go over the costs with them which was completely my fault and mistake. Busy Bee fucked around with this message at 04:20 on Dec 4, 2012 |
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Dec 4, 2012 04:07
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Busy Bee posted:I know I am the one to blame for not discussing the costs before they went through with everything.... Did you and your lawyer sign a contract that set forth the scope of your lawyer's services and the fee agreement?
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Dec 4, 2012 04:11
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I'd be pretty surprised if you didn't have to sign a retainer that had his fees in it already. Also, I don't know the facts of your case, but getting diversion / community hours probably took some work. I doubt you would have got that outcome on your own, especially seeing as how you can't go two sentences without writing how awful the cops are and what a miscarriage this all is. Prosecutors love that poo poo.
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Dec 4, 2012 04:17
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terrorist ambulance posted:I'd be pretty surprised if you didn't have to sign a retainer that had his fees in it already. If I remember correctly, I signed off on a form that mentioned his $250/hr hourly rate. No mention of how much each stage would cost or anything. My lawyer mentioned that it was a complete surprise to him that we were offered community service hours for a dismissal and it was probably primarily due to the trial brief that he wrote and how ridiculous the charges were in the first place. And yes, I can't go two sentences without talking about how awful the cops were because they were awful, aggressive, assholes who arrested me. I'm not some idiot who goes off and shifts responsibility on the judges, prosecutors, justice system etc whatever saying how innocent I am because those drat pigs arrested me for a gram of weed. I am an innocent person who was arrested and charged for being at the wrong place at the wrong time and now having to deal with a lawyer bill. Busy Bee fucked around with this message at 04:23 on Dec 4, 2012 |
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Dec 4, 2012 04:20
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Pay your bill, do your community service, don't pick fights with the cops no more. You hired a professional and got a good outcome because of his hard work, and you turn around and cry about how he bills his mileage
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Dec 4, 2012 04:23
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Busy Bee posted:I have a $10k bill. Your lawyer is TOTALLY RETARDED. I mean they might be a crackerjack fantastic attorney in trial, but as a businessperson they're a lunatic. They just dove into a $10k trial for an unemployed college student with no retainer, roping in another attorney as well. What the mother gently caress... And uhhh... I know this is like an oncologist seeing cancer in everyone, but have you thought about bankruptcy? Instead of paying this lawyer bill, you could buy a car, wipe out your other debt, and walk away whistling. Depending on your assets and liabilities, and if you want to buy real estate within 3 years or not, it could be a good option. $10k debt for unemployed is getting close to a financial slam dunk depending on your longterm plans.
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Dec 4, 2012 04:25
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terrorist ambulance posted:Pay your bill, do your community service, don't pick fights with the cops no more. I did my community service, thanks. And I didn't and have never picked a fight with the cops. Yes, I hired a professional and got a good outcome because of his work. But I have every reason to cry about how he excessively charged me and traveled 3 hours on MY DIME without consulting me to interview an officer. Am I really in the wrong here to criticize their billing? Busy Bee fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Dec 4, 2012 |
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Dec 4, 2012 04:28
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woozle wuzzle posted:Your lawyer is TOTALLY RETARDED. I mean they might be a crackerjack fantastic attorney in trial, but as a businessperson they're a lunatic. They just dove into a $10k trial for an unemployed college student with no retainer, roping in another attorney as well. What the mother gently caress... I'm kind of leaning this way. You might have gotten a good outcome but your lawyer is kind of an idiot if he ran up a $10k bill with someone who basically can't pay at all without mentioning it ahead of time or checking in with you.
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Dec 4, 2012 04:32
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Busy Bee posted:I did my community service, thanks. And I didn't and have never picked a fight with the cops. Your attorney did a very good job in all aspects of his representation. He went out and proactively developed your case rather than relying on, and reacting to, the police reports. He kept you in the loop, calling you and giving you updates. These two things alone push him well into the upper 20% of lawyers. On top of that, he got a good (pragmatically speaking) result for you. Had he not done all that work, the DA would probably not have made that offer. You are now in a position to put this behind you, or you can roll the dice and try to vindicate your feelings of injustice. That will cost you. Your attorney has already front-loaded much of that work, but it'll probably cost you the same amount again to take this to trial, and the same amount again (or more) to appeal it if you lose. Will you ever get a penny back from the police? No. Talk to your legislator about that; but don't blame your lawyer. Is it dumb for you to second-guess your attorney's decision proactively to go talk to a witness that he wasn't able to get ahold of an easier way? Absolutely. Is is dumb for you to ask him to cut that part of the bill in half because he was going there anyway on another case? Not at all. Should you ask him to cut the bill for the stand-in lawyer down to his own ($250/hr) rate? Yes. This is an objectively good lawyer who busted his butt for you for free by taking a risk on you being willing and able to pay him. Pay him. Talk with him about not splitting the travel time, talk with him about cutting the stand-in's fee (The stand-in didn't charge your attorney for his time, but the stand-in will expect your attorney to do the same at a future date) But pay him. Every minute he was working on your case was a minute he couldn't get paid for working on someone else's case. Pay him. Trade him. Set up a payment plan, but pay him. Woozle wuzzle was spot-on about your attorney unwisely (essentially) fronting you his pay. On the matter of his other observation, woozle wuzzle's not so much an oncologist seeing cancer, but an oncologist giving out drinks spiked with carcinogens. Your lawyer is taking care of you. Talk to your lawyer. Pay your lawyer.
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Dec 4, 2012 05:01
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terrorist ambulance posted:I'd be pretty surprised if you didn't have to sign a retainer that had his fees in it already. A bit of work, probably, but 10 grand worth? I had no idea that defence attorneys charge 10 grand to just prepare an obstruction misdemeanour for trial, let alone actualy do the trial. I guess I'm just used to working for a set salary with required, uncompensated overtime hours. What state are you in, Busy? If some defence attorney told me they were paid 10k to prepare a resisting/obstructing misdemeanour around here, and then thousands more for the trial, I would be blown away. If you don't have a background, I'd at the very least consider reducing the charge if the lawyer just walked up to me in court and said "Hey my guy doesn't have a background and this is just a bad thing all round, can you talk to the officers and see about a reducer/DP?" Hell, when misdemeanour cases get passed to the private attorney on hand, they may be resolved for the price of the bond on the first day in court. That goes out the window, though, if it's a really aggravating case (in which case to avoid a conviction I guess you really do need that defence attorney who's willing to drive around the country interviewing people, but ouch $10k). Agesilaus fucked around with this message at 05:09 on Dec 4, 2012 |
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Dec 4, 2012 05:06
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joat mon posted:On the matter of his other observation, woozle wuzzle's not so much an oncologist seeing cancer, but an oncologist giving out drinks spiked with carcinogens. I dunno man. If we wrote an unfeeling computer program that gave a thumbs up or thumbs down for bankruptcy based solely on long term finances (including expense from increase rates, etc), there's a moderate chance this guy gets a thumbs up. He's basically at car or no car... Wipe away your weak morality for a second, and make it about pure $.
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Dec 4, 2012 05:11
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What kind of jail time were you looking at. (Busy Bee)
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Dec 4, 2012 05:17
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Agesilaus posted:A bit of work, probably, but 10 grand worth? I had no idea that defence attorneys charge 10 grand to just prepare an obstruction misdemeanour for trial, let alone actualy do the trial. I guess I'm just used to working for a set salary with required, uncompensated overtime hours. What state are you in, Busy? $10k is kind of normal for a misdo that is prepped to trial. Lots of prep work. Investigators. This is 40 hours @ $250/hr, but I suspect a few thousand is spent in investigators (he probably didn't actually interview them, but had an investigator. This is a good thing, a lawyer shouldn't be doing investigations). Add a maybe 8 hours in appearances and meeting/phone calls and you probably only have 2-3 days of prep. Now you know why everyone pleas. nm fucked around with this message at 05:37 on Dec 4, 2012 |
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Dec 4, 2012 05:33
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nm posted:$10k is kind of normal for a misdo that is prepped to trial. Well, I've resolved plenty of misdemeanours on day one or with the PD, so there are other reasons for pleading. I've done plenty of little misdemeanour trials and motions against defence attorneys, too, with clients who I seriously doubt had 10k to pay. I just wasn't aware the defence attorneys can seriously try to bill people that sort of money on relatively small cases. Just another reason to get the american private market out of the criminal justice system. EDIT: I mean, can these people seriously make in ten cases what I make in a year? I have had single days where I've done 10 hearings/trials (okay maybe that happened once, but 4 or 5 no-blow dui trials back to back is not rare at all). Agesilaus fucked around with this message at 05:40 on Dec 4, 2012 |
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Dec 4, 2012 05:37
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Agesilaus posted:Well, I've resolved plenty of misdemeanours on day one or with the PD, so there are other reasons for pleading. I've done plenty of little misdemeanour trials and motions against defence attorneys, too, with clients who I seriously doubt had 10k to pay. I just wasn't aware the defence attorneys can seriously try to bill people that sort of money on relatively small cases. There are lovely attorneys who bill less but never prep the case for trial. Of course a lot of cases aren't going to be prepared for trial even by good attorneys. A .20 DUI without a no drive and an obviously valid stop, for example. The best part is the attorneys who do these flat rate for $3k-6k without trial and generally one-two appearances.
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Dec 4, 2012 05:39
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nm posted:There are lovely attorneys who bill less but never prep the case for trial. Of course a lot of cases aren't going to be prepared for trial even by good attorneys. A .20 DUI without a no drive and an obviously valid stop, for example. Gah, $3k-6k for the exact same offer I'd give if the person just went to get evaluated and came in to plead with the bar attorney for a couple of hundred. At most, the private can write a heart-wrenching letter to try and get a reducer, but yeah no that's not going to happen with a .2 blow.
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Dec 4, 2012 05:43
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Agesilaus posted:Gah, $3k-6k for the exact same offer I'd give if the person just went to get evaluated and came in to plead with the bar attorney for a couple of hundred. At most, the private can write a heart-wrenching letter to try and get a reducer, but yeah no that's not going to happen with a .2 blow. If you have no soul/respect, a DUI mill with a credit card machine can make serious money. The worst part is these lawyers will often take worse offers than even pro pers.
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Dec 4, 2012 05:44
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Agesilaus posted:
A good, triable one day summary conviction trial is like 50 hours worth of prep work. You pay for defense counsel who had the time to get ready and then run roughshod over the prosecutor, who was running 10 hearings that day
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Dec 4, 2012 06:05
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We charge ~1000 flat to get someone out of their first DUI, which I think is fair.Agesilaus posted:
Your forgetting overhead and the fact that not everyone pays.
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Dec 4, 2012 06:05
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Agesilaus posted:EDIT: I mean, can these people seriously make in ten cases what I make in a year? I have had single days where I've done 10 hearings/trials (okay maybe that happened once, but 4 or 5 no-blow dui trials back to back is not rare at all). Because you don't have to pay for a building, liability insurance, westlaw (shockingly expensive), staff, advertising, etc. I'd venture your salary is well under half of what your trials cost the state.
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Dec 4, 2012 06:11
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terrorist ambulance posted:A good, triable one day summary conviction trial is like 50 hours worth of prep work. You pay for defense counsel who had the time to get ready and then run roughshod over the prosecutor, who was running 10 hearings that day I generally don't deal with petty cases that don't feature the right to a jury, but hah at the idea of getting run roughshod by some defence attorney on a no-blow DUI trial. The DUI cases are usually so similar that it takes very little effort to prepare things on my end. I may well lose, that's easy enough out here, but we have enough trial experience that usually it's the defence attorney who slips up. The only problem with back to back trials on heavy traffic calls is that I don't get lunch and have to stand up speaking for 8 hours straight. e: nm posted:I'd venture your salary is well under half of what your trials cost the state. Is under half good or bad? I don't even know how they'd keep track of what each trial costs the state, because accurate statistics for the number of cases taken to trial don't exist. Agesilaus fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Dec 4, 2012 |
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Dec 4, 2012 06:11
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I wasn't talking DUI. Impaireds are high traffic (ha!) poo poo where the triable issues are the same like 90% of the time. That's why dudes can run trials for 1000$, because they're running the same trial most of the timeAgesilaus posted:Is under half good or bad? I don't even know how they'd keep track of what each trial costs the state, because accurate statistics for the number of cases taken to trial don't exist. If you sit down and try to figure out what the judge, prosecutor, court-appointed defence, court time, all the police investigation, state witnesses, community corrections, and the big daddy, jail time, cost the taxpayers for dudes stealing smokes and beating on the women that come back to them every other week, it gets kind of dizzying terrorist ambulance fucked around with this message at 06:27 on Dec 4, 2012 |
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Dec 4, 2012 06:23
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nm posted:If you have no soul/respect, a DUI mill with a credit card machine can make serious money. Similarly, Busy Bee could have saved $9000, and got a year's worth of probation (with a $40 per month 'supervision' fee), a misdemeanor conviction on his record, and $700-800 in fines and costs on top of his community service. woozle wuzzle posted:I dunno man. If we wrote an unfeeling computer program that gave a thumbs up or thumbs down for bankruptcy based solely on long term finances (including expense from increase rates, etc), there's a moderate chance this guy gets a thumbs up. He's basically at car or no car... Wipe away your weak morality for a second, and make it about pure $. I'm the idiot who tries to stick with his weak morality rather than making it about pure $. But I see your point, and depending on how you approach it, it makes sense; I just don't like it.
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Dec 4, 2012 06:23
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joat mon posted:Similarly, Busy Bee could have saved $9000, and got a year's worth of probation (with a $40 per month 'supervision' fee), a misdemeanor conviction on his record, and $700-800 in fines and costs on top of his community service. Depends on the facts of the case and where he is, so it's impossible as far as I can tell to determine whether or not he needed that 10K worth of service. If Busy went to court on the first date without an attorney, consulted with the bar attorney, asked for a reduced offence, he may well have saved $9.9k and gotten 6 months of supervision no conviction on a lower class misdemeanour and less than 300 dollars mandatory costs. Or even a petty ordinance violation. Or a deferred pros situation.
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Dec 4, 2012 06:32
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joat mon posted:Your attorney did a very good job in all aspects of his representation. He went out and proactively developed your case rather than relying on, and reacting to, the police reports. He kept you in the loop, calling you and giving you updates. These two things alone push him well into the upper 20% of lawyers. Busy Bee, this is the best advice in the thread so far. Talk to your attorney. Explain your financial situation. Explain that you appreciate updates about the case and the work put in, but you're concerned about a few things, and money's tight because you're an unemployed college student (which he (she?) should have known going in). Sticking points - you're uncomfortable paying $400/hr when your agreed-upon rate was $250/hr, and you're not sure why you're stuck with his travel time if he was already traveling to the other county for another client. You probably can't get him to waive his colleague's time, but you might get him to lower the rate on it to $250/hr. You probably can't get him to entirely waive travel time, but you might get him to split the travel time with the other client, or something similar so you don't have to pay all $750 in travel time. One other thing. Try to make it clear to him that you're not trying to be a pain in his rear end, it's just that money's tight and you want to be sure 1) that you can pay him, and 2) that you're getting fairly charged.
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Dec 4, 2012 06:32
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joat mon posted:I'm the idiot who tries to stick with his weak morality rather than making it about pure $. But I see your point, and depending on how you approach it, it makes sense; I just don't like it. There are a lot of ways to skin it. But I figure the moral thing to do from a position of advocacy is to sit in the client's corner. There are serious consequences as well as benefits to bankruptcy, but our goal is to say what's best for them personally. Not best for everyone involved or society or whatever, gently caress society. For example, I wouldn't tell a criminal to continue their enterprise to cover their tracks, but I'd tell them to shut the gently caress up if the police talk to them. That seriously hurts society, it's not the moral choice in the big picture. But that's not our job. If you put Busy Bee in a vacuum, it's hard to find a moral path to telling him he's better off without a car but with whatever "honor" there is in paying a bill. He can bring his own moral framework to bear and weigh it, but that's not our job. I think it's letting the bigger picture seep in to tell some one not to even consider bankruptcy, given unemployed, likely zero assets, and -$10k. I get not liking it, but we ain't here to like it. woozle wuzzle fucked around with this message at 06:47 on Dec 4, 2012 |
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Dec 4, 2012 06:44
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woozle wuzzle posted:If you put Busy Bee in a vacuum, it's hard to find a moral path to telling him he's better off without a car but with whatever "honor" there is in paying a bill. He can bring his own moral framework to bear and weigh it, but that's not our job. I think it's letting the bigger picture seep in to tell some one not to even consider bankruptcy, given unemployed, likely zero assets, and -$10k. I get not liking it, but we ain't here to like it. How are you even discussing "better" without morality? You are boxing up the issue so that many questions are put to one side and then, in this odd environment, declaring one way better than another. That's not to say that morality requires that you advise him to pay what he's been told are his debts. Bankruptcy could be fantastic advice, and you could well find fault with the current economic order and Busy's place within it. Fundamentally, though, as a gentleman it is your duty, and should be your natural inclination, to make morality and justice a part of any advice you offer.
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Dec 4, 2012 06:53
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Agesilaus posted:How are you even discussing "better" without morality? You are boxing up the issue so that many questions are put to one side and then, in this odd environment, declaring one way better than another. That's not to say that morality requires that you advise him to pay what he's been told are his debts. Bankruptcy could be fantastic advice, and you could well find fault with the current economic order and Busy's place within it. Fundamentally, though, as a gentleman it is your duty, and should be your natural inclination, to make morality and justice a part of any advice you offer. There's not a molecule of what you said that conflicts with what I said. I didn't say to reject morality... Like uhhh maybe reread it?
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Dec 4, 2012 06:58
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Careful, that lawyer might actually go through the trouble of getting a judgment against you for 10K plus.
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Dec 4, 2012 06:59
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woozle wuzzle posted:There's not a molecule of what you said that conflicts with what I said. I didn't say to reject morality... Like uhhh maybe reread it? You literally said that Busy could bring his own moral framework to judge things, but that such a thing wasn't our job. You say it's not about whether we like the advice, and you talk about the problem of having the bigger picture seep in. I read your post and I disagree with it.
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Dec 4, 2012 07:07
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