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Agesilaus posted:Depends on the facts of the case and where he is, so it's impossible as far as I can tell to determine whether or not he needed that 10K worth of service. A lot of that money goes toward a greater certainty in the end result, through thorough preparation. Maybe the attorney could do less work and charge less because maybe the DA won't be a dick maybe if it goes to trial the cop will say something outside his report that could be useful maybe the attorney could capitalize on the useful tidbit without any additional investigation maybe there weren't any independent witnesses, so no need to look for them maybe the DA's feeling generous or magnanimous and will offer a reduction/deferred/nolle pros out of the goodness of his heart. maybe there is a bar attorney maybe the bar attorney isn't worthless maybe the judge will twist the DA's arm to get a better result. maybe ALL these maybes will ALL pan out for the low low price of $100. But they probably won't. Busy Bee paid good money so that as many of these variables as possible were in the control of him and his attorney so he could better control the result, rather than hoping that somebody who isn't working in his best interest would care or err or be forced to give him a good result.
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Dec 4, 2012 07:08
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Busy Bee posted:
You're paying for his time, not a specific work product. The time he spends sitting around in court with you is time that he could have spent with another client at $250/hr.
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Dec 4, 2012 07:32
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Agesilaus posted:You literally said that Busy could bring his own moral framework to judge things, but that such a thing wasn't our job. You say it's not about whether we like the advice, and you talk about the problem of having the bigger picture seep in. I read your post and I disagree with it. I said our job was to give moral advice from the perspective of the client, not to reject morality. A lawyer can feel that X is deeply wrong and have a client guilty of X. Their moral compass should guide them on a thousand internal calls. But their moral and ethical obligation is zealous advocacy that may well lead to their client's acquittal to society's severe detriment. If the lawyer can't reconcile that conflict and they let their client down by a hair, then they should get the gently caress out. That's what I meant. It's a debatable point that society would suffer from Busy Bee's theoretical bankruptcy. But it's flatly not debatable that he should consider it. Maybe it's not for him, but he gets to make the call, not us. That's the separation I'm talking about which you failed to glean from my lovely posts. For example: Let's say I have a moral objection to social security. If a person in here had the potential for SSI-disability, it would be immoral of me to tell them not to consider it. I should either tell them and let them decide, or shut up about it. Seems pretty obvious. woozle wuzzle fucked around with this message at 08:09 on Dec 4, 2012 |
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Dec 4, 2012 07:43
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joat mon posted:A lot of that money goes toward a greater certainty in the end result, through thorough preparation. I agree, though I wonder why someone in his situation couldn't qualify for the PD. The attorney did make one major mistake though and that is that he didn't get cash up front.
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Dec 4, 2012 07:45
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nm posted:
Which makes me think there is something missing from the story we are getting.
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Dec 4, 2012 07:45
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euphronius posted:Which makes me think there is something missing from the story we are getting. Especially as he seems pretty clearly PD eligible. Is there a relatively rich parent on the hook if he doesn't pay?
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Dec 4, 2012 07:49
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nm posted:westlaw (shockingly expensive) Fun story for those who don't know what nm means by this. I'm doing some research into a patent that was asserted in some random tiny litigations for a client. Maybe 5, 6 hours total, between the patent, some court docs, docket pulls, etc. A couple weeks later, the billing partner emails me and says "why is there a $4000 westlaw bill?" Westlaw can get very expensive, very quickly. (Best we can tell, a couple of the court documents were outside our subscription and we got charged full rate instead of negotiated rate. That said, even normal rates can easily hit 50-80 bucks an hour, or 15/search and another dollar or two per result you actually read. Depending on how much case research was done - probably not a ton in this case, but hard to say - a good chunk of that 10k could have been research costs.)
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Dec 4, 2012 08:05
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burf posted:You're paying for his time, not a specific work product. The time he spends sitting around in court with you is time that he could have spent with another client at $250/hr. That's all well and good, but from a purely business ethics standpoint his client should at least have had a ballpark idea of what he/she would be in for. It's easy for a lawyer to say that it's obvious what it would have cost, but for someone with no experience with the legal industry it's not so obvious. It's also quite likely that the $10,000 was a reasonable rate, given the costs, but that still does not absolve the lawyer of providing his client with sufficient information to decide whether to take the representation.
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Dec 4, 2012 08:19
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I'm sure there was a fee agreement. Also "business ethics" hah hah hah.
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Dec 4, 2012 08:21
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nm posted:I agree, though I wonder why someone in his situation couldn't qualify for the PD. Around here the de facto rule is, "If you can pay bail/ bond, you can pay for an attorney." VVVVVV e: I started out in the military, where if charges are filed, you get military counsel. You can also hire your own, but you always get counsel appointed. Here, pretty much the only way you get a PD is if you're in custody. If you're out, you don't get a PD. Even with the bar set that high, we still take 65% of the criminal cases that get filed. Everyone who wants a PD should get one. joat mon fucked around with this message at 09:07 on Dec 4, 2012 |
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Dec 4, 2012 08:48
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joat mon posted:Around here the de facto rule is, "If you can pay bail/ bond, you can pay for an attorney." Interesting, around here the rule is basically if you say you're poor you get a PD. Or in custody, I've never seen them even ask in custodies what they make. (Which I think is a good thing because good lawyers cost $10k or more).
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Dec 4, 2012 08:58
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LordPants posted:Brilliant! That's all I wanted to know. I was watching it wondering whether the LWOP character was ever going to get out. CM1 is... shooting The Pipeline? I think CM 2 is intentional property damage $25k or more that isn't arson. Also we have max caps of 99 years (66 with good time!) on Murder 1 and SA/SAM 1. Edit: looked it up. CM 1 is "Intentional property damage $100k or more with widely dangerous means" that isn't arson, or shooting The Pipeline, or pretty much nuking an essential public utility. I have literally never heard of anyone being prosecuted for this crime that didn't shoot The Pipeline, and even then, that one guy admitted to shooting The Pipeline. How is Felony Murder anything but Murder 1 if you're using "Widely dangerous means" to do anything? Edit: what are "widely dangerous means?" Let's list them: a) nuking things, b) sleeping with nm's mom, c) getting into a fiddle contest with the devil. BigHead fucked around with this message at 09:13 on Dec 4, 2012 |
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Dec 4, 2012 09:10
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Honestly I just saw it had a funny name. I didn't realise you had to blow up the pipeline. That makes it funnier.
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Dec 4, 2012 09:34
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Double speeding ticket question! I live in Melbourne, Australia. I was pulled over by the cops for going 106km in a 100km zone (highway) at 5.20pm. Got the speed ticket, ok fine I was speeding, I deserved it blah blah blah. That was two weeks ago. Then today I get a letter in the mail saying that a speeding camera caught me going 106km at 5.20pm on the same day. The exact same time as the cop pulled me over. I called up the Victorian police fines section and they have said I have to pay both fines or go to court over it. Do I have any leg to stand on here? I'm being fined twice for the same offense
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Dec 4, 2012 10:06
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euphronius posted:Which makes me think there is something missing from the story we are getting. His prior posts in this thread also suggest that he should've had some idea of what to expect. He was here complaining about a friend's $7000 pre-trial bill amongst other things.
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Dec 4, 2012 17:25
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If he's mistaken and his next appearance isn't to perfect the diversion but is instead to confirm he's done the community service and make submissions on further sentence he may quickly discover why you pay someone 250$/hr to be ready for these things
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Dec 4, 2012 17:43
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Trillian posted:His prior posts in this thread also suggest that he should've had some idea of what to expect. He was here complaining about a friend's $7000 pre-trial bill amongst other things. Plus half his posts about his various illegal drugs he takes so I really doubt this was a. his first time in court and b. a matter of mean cops picking on him for no reason.
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Dec 4, 2012 18:17
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Busy Bee posted:My friends lawyer spent logged in over $7000 preparing for a trial (interviewing witnesses, writing trial brief etc) and on the week before trial when they were supposed to set the date, the prosecutor offers 25 hours of community service to have the case dismissed. My friend has two choices, take the 25 hours and do community service, or pay another $3000 towards his lawyer for the trial. Yeah he knew exactly how much everything was supposed to cost.
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Dec 4, 2012 19:44
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Do lawyers really bill an hourly rate when calling to update their clients about what is going on? For a lawyer to call me and say, "I did my lawyer thing, and this is where things are going from here" then turn around an bill me .25 hours at $200 an hour for the call seems as ridiculous as a doctor calling and saying, "We got your test results back and we'd like you to come in for more test because of [medical stuff]" and billing you at whatever a doctor's hourly rate is for the call or dropping your car off at the mechanic and getting a call saying, "while we were changing your brakes, we noticed your tie-rod bushings are shot and you should get them replaced because [horrible accident stuff]. Then going to pick up my car and finding out that they tacked on .25 hours at a mechanic rate for the call.
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Dec 4, 2012 21:05
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The time (usually) reflects more than just the exact amount of seconds they are on the phone with you and speaking. For example, before I call a client I would review the recent document or event, call the client, and then record the phone call as a note to the file. That would all appear as "Phone conference with client re Simpson appeal" or whatever. euphronius fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Dec 4, 2012 |
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Dec 4, 2012 21:07
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SkunkDuster posted:Do lawyers really bill an hourly rate when calling to update their clients about what is going on? For a lawyer to call me and say, "I did my lawyer thing, and this is where things are going from here" then turn around an bill me .25 hours at $200 an hour for the call seems as ridiculous as a doctor calling and saying, "We got your test results back and we'd like you to come in for more test because of [medical stuff]" and billing you at whatever a doctor's hourly rate is for the call or dropping your car off at the mechanic and getting a call saying, "while we were changing your brakes, we noticed your tie-rod bushings are shot and you should get them replaced because [horrible accident stuff]. Then going to pick up my car and finding out that they tacked on .25 hours at a mechanic rate for the call. You could write your attorney a letter and direct him not to keep you in the loop so much? It's a Catch-22. Either you suck because you don't communicate or you suck becasue you spend your time communicating. Even though communicating with clients can be a pain in the rear end, doing so will never get you in trouble with the bar.
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Dec 4, 2012 21:17
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Man, you guy's are rough! Going through my post history and basically assuming that since I talk and ask about illegal drugs I must be a criminal who hates cops. Yes, I did post something in this thread a week or two ago asking about my "friend" when in reality it was me. And no, I did not know about the costs then besides the rough $7000 estimate my lawyer gave me after I asked him how much he has billed so far (Which I already mentioned in my previous post). That is when I was flabbergasted at the price and where he mentioned that it was going to cost around $3000 more to go to trial... all of this I already mentioned in my posts here. Also, it was at $7000, but then he charged me for the stand-in lawyer at $400/hr and other various charges so now it's closer to $10,000. The only fee agreement was that he would charge me $250/hr and that is what I signed off on. There was absolutely no mention that this would cost upwards of $10,000. Is it really that hard for some of you to give me the benefit of the doubt and understand that both parties (my lawyer and I) have made mistakes but I am just extremely flabbergasted at a $10,000 bill for a simple misdemeanor charge that had no weight to it? Especially coming from a unemployed student? I don't give a gently caress about buying a couple thousand dollar car, I can keep taking the bus or borrow a friends car, but it was the $10,000 bill and the excessive charges I was complaining about. I've received some great advice here and will use it wisely. Thank you.
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Dec 4, 2012 21:39
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How much time were you looking at for the charge.
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Dec 4, 2012 21:42
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euphronius posted:How much time were you looking at for the charge. I have no idea. I didn't even think of it because I knew I was innocent from the start. My lawyer never discussed it with me and was on my side that this case was complete BS from the beginning even with just the contradicting police reports. But regardless, thank you everyone for your advice and help. I'm done going back and forth about this and I'll be glad when I can put all of this in the past and move on. Thanks.
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Dec 4, 2012 21:44
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Just wondering because a misdemeanor in my state can go up to 1.999 years in jail.
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Dec 4, 2012 21:45
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SkunkDuster posted:Do lawyers really bill an hourly rate when calling to update their clients about what is going on? A friend of mine works at a large law firm and I love giving him poo poo for all the stuff he bills to clients. Time spent on the phone is pretty reasonable, really. A few things they also bill:
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Dec 4, 2012 22:21
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Busy Bee posted:Man, you guy's are rough! Going through my post history and basically assuming that since I talk and ask about illegal drugs I must be a criminal who hates cops. Don't be such a hyperbolic jackass. If you're routinely engaged in illegal activities it's highly likely that you are eventually going to deal with law enforcement at some point. It should not have a come as a surprise to you. In fact if you are going to be a recreational drug user, you may as well budget for the legal costs of your hobby. On the other hand, this encounter might be a good opportunity to asses your drug use and whether you're better off making some lifestyle changes.
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Dec 4, 2012 22:28
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El_Elegante posted:Don't be such a hyperbolic jackass. If you're routinely engaged in illegal activities it's highly likely that you are eventually going to deal with law enforcement at some point. It should not have a come as a surprise to you. In fact if you are going to be a recreational drug user, you may as well budget for the legal costs of your hobby. Oh please. Get the gently caress over yourself. Drugs and alcohol had nothing to do with my arrest that I've been talking about for the past few pages. It's amazing how you can assume how I live and criticize my lifestyle over some posts that you've looked back on. Really, it's amazing. Seriously, I'm waiting for you to go over my Something Awful rap sheet and tell me how many times I've been put on probation relates to my arrest that I've been talking about. rear end in a top hat. Busy Bee fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Dec 4, 2012 |
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Dec 4, 2012 22:33
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Busy Bee posted:Oh please. Get the gently caress over yourself. Drugs and alcohol had nothing to do with my arrest that I've been talking about for the past few pages. It's amazing how you can assume how I live and criticize my lifestyle over some posts that you've looked back on. Really, it's amazing. Jesus christ, really? We're speculating based off the only information we have. And it's an entirely reasonable guess where you have both lied to us (It's my "friend," not me) and have posted about how you're engaged in illegal activity. Plus you claim you have "no idea" what the criminal charge is about. That's entirely unbelievable. If you don't want us to guess, tell us what it was about. If you want us to guess, suck it up and deal with the consequences.
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Dec 4, 2012 22:48
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Also just because a charges is "bull poo poo" that does not mean that it is trivial to evade it.
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Dec 4, 2012 22:51
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euphronius posted:How much time were you looking at for the charge. 0-364 days in, 0-$5000 fine. Busy Bee posted:Man, you guy's are rough! Going through my post history and basically assuming that since I talk and ask about illegal drugs I must be a criminal who hates cops. For at least the last 2 1/2 years you have been doing things that bring you into contact with cops. Those deferred case(s)? The cops still have their records. Your 'friends's' cases? Even if they were really not your cases, you may well be cross-referenced in the police department's database. What kind of obstructing case was it, [allegedly]? Giving a false name? false information? Disregarding an order? How did you come into contact with the police this time? How could you avoid this in the future?
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Dec 4, 2012 22:55
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Also everyone is always obviously innocent right up until the point where your honour I'm so very very sorry and I'll never do it again and pleaaaase don't send me to prison.
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Dec 4, 2012 22:55
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Wow. I didn't come here to receive sympathy about my charges, I came here to receive advice for what I thought was excessive billing by my lawyer. Which some people have agreed with and gave me great and helpful advice, while the rest of you decided to go over my post history and assume that since I've talked about drugs and illegal activity, I'm some hosed up ignorant rear end in a top hat drug addicted kid who has no right to complain about their lawyer fees because hey! he should have known better and put some money aside and budgeted my lawyer fees because of my illegal activity.
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Dec 4, 2012 22:57
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I dont remember anyone saying the charges were excessive? I know I did not.
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Dec 4, 2012 23:00
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Busy Bee posted:Wow. I didn't come here to receive sympathy about my charges, I came here to receive advice for what I thought was excessive billing by my lawyer. Which some people have agreed with and gave me great and helpful advice, while the rest of you decided to go over my post history and assume that since I've talked about drugs and illegal activity, I'm some hosed up ignorant rear end in a top hat drug addicted kid who has no right to complain about their lawyer fees because hey! he should have known better and put some money aside and budgeted my lawyer fees because of my illegal activity. I'm getting some clues about the basis for the obstrucing case...
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Dec 4, 2012 23:00
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Also, at the time you signed the fee agreement, did you ever ask for a ballpark of how many hours the representation might take? Obviously the lawyer was stupid for going $10,000 in when you're unemployed, but I imagine someone in your situation could've used some idea of what sort of outlay to expect from the whole affair. I mean, how many hours were you expecting your lawyer to put in? Where did that expectation come from? Were you thinking that the lawyer would pop into court, say "abracadabra alakazam, please let my client be a free man", and hand you a bill for one hour as the judge dropped all the charges and threw the arresting officers in jail for contempt?
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Dec 4, 2012 23:03
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QUESTION: I live in NJ. I was fired in September and received a separation letter 6 weeks later. I didn't sign it because it was three pages of legal jargon about me waiving my rights. My former boss just emailed to say that they will demand my 2 weeks separation pay back if I don't sign in the next 2 weeks ("As organization's name provided you with two extra weeks pay in exchange for your promises and obligations in the Separation Letter, you are not fulfilling you end of the arrangement"). There is nothing in the employee manual or my employment contract that mentions separation letters. I don't remember her even saying anything about it but I was in a fog of shock and it was a few months ago. Can she really demand back separation pay? I don't intend to sue, but I would much rather not sign away my right to. Thanks!
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Dec 4, 2012 23:04
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Dude quote one instance of anyone calling you a drug addict or a cop-hater. You need to tone it down.
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Dec 4, 2012 23:04
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VivaNova posted:QUESTION: I live in NJ. I was fired in September and received a separation letter 6 weeks later. I didn't sign it because it was three pages of legal jargon about me waiving my rights. My former boss just emailed to say that they will demand my 2 weeks separation pay back if I don't sign in the next 2 weeks ("As organization's name provided you with two extra weeks pay in exchange for your promises and obligations in the Separation Letter, you are not fulfilling you end of the arrangement"). There is nothing in the employee manual or my employment contract that mentions separation letters. I don't remember her even saying anything about it but I was in a fog of shock and it was a few months ago. Can she really demand back separation pay? I don't intend to sue, but I would much rather not sign away my right to. Thanks! Was the seperaton pay above and beyond what was owed to you at the time you were fired?
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Dec 4, 2012 23:17
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I believe so. It was two weeks pay.
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Dec 4, 2012 23:25
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