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Nov 15, 2012 01:46
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Are German people condescending? All the Germans i know are extremely nice to the point where you think it's suspicious, always smiling and being helpful. Sure, you can say that as German middle class immigrants in Southern Europe they're rich as hell and that's why they're happy but even some who aren't that wealthy are still stupidly nice and polite. Maybe it's in the water or something.
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Nov 15, 2012 02:02
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Mans posted:Are German people condescending? All the Germans i know are extremely nice to the point where you think it's suspicious, always smiling and being helpful. Sure, you can say that as German middle class immigrants in Southern Europe they're rich as hell and that's why they're happy but even some who aren't that wealthy are still stupidly nice and polite. Maybe it's in the water or something. They're in the same way condescending as Americans are condescending when they donate 1000s of dollars to Haiti. e: I'm sorry for the tone of this post but I'll let it stand as it is. vvv My sentiment comes from having lived in the south for several years and having met far too many people who're just nice for the sake of their own self-righteousness. If someone smiles at you but he doesn't mean it or it's just inappropriate for the occasion that's condescending afaict. xf86enodev fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Nov 15, 2012 |
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Nov 15, 2012 02:25
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xf86enodev posted:sorry No, I don't think listening to flavour can be forgiven, oh snap. Mans posted:Are German people condescending? All the Germans i know are extremely nice to the point where you think it's suspicious, always smiling and being helpful. Sure, you can say that as German middle class immigrants in Southern Europe they're rich as hell and that's why they're happy but even some who aren't that wealthy are still stupidly nice and polite. Maybe it's in the water or something. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 15, 2012 02:30
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Deceitful Penguin posted:No, I don't think listening to flavour can be forgiven, oh snap. Hello, dear person who misspells my username, what's with the low content cheerleading? Do you have something to say about my reasoning or are you just annoyed that it doesn't follow some kind of "correct" line and therefore you post poo poo like you did without any substance?
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Nov 15, 2012 02:35
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flavor posted:Hello, dear person who misspells my username, what's with the low content cheerleading? Do you have something to say about my reasoning or are you just annoyed that it doesn't follow some kind of "correct" line and therefore you post poo poo like you did without any substance? I've seen DP make ugly remarks about Germany before on these forums. So far he's doing good itt. For now, I'd rather see you back your statements with something more tangible. Be it anecdotal or not. e: That misspelling was uncalled for though, I give you that. e2: Sorry I'm out, it's way past my time. gently caress timezones. xf86enodev fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Nov 15, 2012 |
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Nov 15, 2012 02:42
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All the Germans I've met were cool. The Belgians, on the other hand...
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Nov 15, 2012 03:06
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xf86enodev posted:I've seen DP make ugly remarks about Germany before on these forums. So far he's doing good itt. I don't care at all if someone says something ugly about Germany. What I don't get is how it's okay for people to post their personal experiences here from a one-time visit of a week or so with no problem and then when I post my experience over decades of living there, that's somehow not backed up enough for some people who probably just saying that because they don't like the content. Yes, my life's experience is anecdotal and the reasons I am seeing behind people behaving a certain way are the ones that make sense to me. So how do you want me to back this up? With the names and sworn and notarized statements of the people who told me how they're feeling? I don't know how it's not okay to give a personal account of something that is ultimately personal. Is this supposed to be some kind of echo chamber? I'm sure nobody is going to ask Cjones to back up his deeply researched post about Germans and Belgians (his post doesn't bother me, I'm just seeing a double standard here).
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Nov 15, 2012 03:14
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flavor posted:Hello, dear person who misspells my username, what's with the low content cheerleading? Do you have something to say about my reasoning or are you just annoyed that it doesn't follow some kind of "correct" line and therefore you post poo poo like you did without any substance? And it's mostly just you bein' conservative, nothing deep. Sure I was only in the country for 7 months in single part but ehhhh, man. I don't know. It's just anecdote vs anecdote unless I wanna bother trawling through journals and poo poo and goddamn, there's a war going on and I have 4000 words to write in 4 hours. Germany is mostly cool. Not about teh turks but I can't be arsed to drag up how they contrast the traditional turkish culture of the village and conflate it with Islam and how this leads to the artifical seperation of modernity and Islam in Germany or some studies on racism. xf86enodev posted:e2: Sorry I'm out, it's way past my time. gently caress timezones. Ain't that the truth.
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Nov 15, 2012 04:32
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I can say with certainty that there's a statistically relevant number of assholes as well as nice people in both belgium and germany. I leave it to the reader to define what exactly constitutes either.flavor posted:I don't know how it's not okay to give a personal account of something that is ultimately personal. Is this supposed to be some kind of echo chamber? I don't think there was anything wrong with your posts. Personally I just figured you might be overthinking the root cause of anti-americanism in Germany. It's much easier to explain these things as a clashing of political values. Given that people are attached to their values, the reactions towards your post aren't very surprising. Neither are the reactions of people very surprising when they find themselves faced with a political spectrum that is at odds with their own. The amount of political mudslinging going on in this thread right now isn't very constructive though. But I guess it's the internet.
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Nov 15, 2012 04:58
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Roadside_Picnic posted:At the same time (this was after Bush II) there was also a lot of reflexive anti-americanism. Normally, this isn't the sort of thing which would bother me except that in Germany it seemed for some reason more aggressive than the anti-americanism that exists in countries with legitimate greivances against the US. I mean, most Iranians in Iran really dislike the American government, obviously. But in Germany there was this personalized nastiness ('oh, you're American. You're interested in German culture. Good for you. Tell me about your country's unhealthy disgusting food and your wars.") that I couldn't quite pin down and which doesn't exist in Iran. A positive nationalist would be what we generally think of as a nationalist: believing your own nation or tribe to be superior to all others. But a negative nationalist is like a mirror image: believing another nation or tribe is inferior for some reason. Both can exist simultaneously inside a person's head and often do, but it's also possible to have a negative form of nationalism while not having any corresponding positive loyalties. I don't know if it's true that anti-Americanism is worse in Germany. But if it is true, it might be explained as a way for some Germans to exercise nationalist impulses when positive nationalist exultation is largely taboo in way that it's not in many other countries. There's less of the "we're the best country in the world woo hoo" attitude that you constantly see in the U.S. But the same kind of thinking where you classify whole groups of people like ants is still there - it's just doing it the other way around.
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Nov 15, 2012 08:51
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Deceitful Penguin posted:And it's mostly just you bein' conservative, nothing deep. I don't think not buying into a laundry list of lovely reasons to hate a whole country's population, many of which apply much more to other countries, makes me "conservative". I'd like to see this as me analyzing things. Zwiebel posted:I don't think there was anything wrong with your posts. Personally I just figured you might be overthinking the root cause of anti-americanism in Germany. It's much easier to explain these things as a clashing of political values. Given that people are attached to their values, the reactions towards your post aren't very surprising. Neither are the reactions of people very surprising when they find themselves faced with a political spectrum that is at odds with their own. If I'm supposed to be in that second group: It doesn't bother me what politics some people have around here, it's their discussion style. A lot of my closest friends have different opinions from me, but they don't shitpost on my opinions and I don't do it to them either. Omi-Polari posted:I don't know if it's true that anti-Americanism is worse in Germany. I'd say the thread blows it out of proportion. It certainly exists, but it's not like everyone is consumed by it. I've mostly encountered it as people liking some aspects and disliking others. Omi-Polari posted:But if it is true, it might be explained as a way for some Germans to exercise nationalist impulses when positive nationalist exultation is largely taboo in way that it's not in many other countries. There's less of the "we're the best country in the world woo hoo" attitude that you constantly see in the U.S. But the same kind of thinking where you classify whole groups of people like ants is still there - it's just doing it the other way around. Yours is about the best analysis of the phenomenon I can think of. What I've seen a lot of in private conversations is a "we're the best country in the world" attitude minus the woo-hoo. Basically nobody denying that the Nazis and WWII happened, and people feeling genuinely bad about that, but on the other side pretty good about what the country has become after WWII. The aspects that get emphasized may differ a little bit by political persuasion, but overall the verdict tends to be that it's the best country. One group may emphasize the economy more, while another may point out the Sozialstaat. So the positive nationalism is there, it's just not expressed as openly as in other places.
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Nov 15, 2012 10:31
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flavor posted:
I am German but I spent a bit more than a year in the USA, my anecdotal perspective is this (this might be a bit lengthy) There are few "proper" ways for Germans to express their approval of things that this country actually does a very good job of. I remember when I first arrived im America I had lengthy debates about wether you could be proud about a thing that you had nothing to do with at all. At this point I realized that the definition of pride in America is different. I mean I was brought up by 68'er/SPD parents so a CSU/JU member might feel differently, but I believed that pride was a feeling of accomplishment - so for something you actually had part in. But if you remember the football World Cup and how it was suddenly okay to fly German flags outside - well many flags are still there. There is a definite need for many to show a way of patriotism while in society it is a things that you just not do. It is very important to acknowledge that Germans are no different in this regard than other countries. Many things are different in Germany than in America, the defining culture of our generation. Even more so than other prominent countries like the UK. Germany stands at a certain divide between Anglo-Saxon style countries and "the East". In the globalized world we are very aware of the shortcomings of other nations, especially the USA. For that reason we are also very aware about things that go right in our country, things that are institutionally simply better implemented. At the same time there is a culture in Germany where those facts are not often expressed as to not get into nationalistic rethoric (which I actually like about this country). But what happens in Germany I think is that this transforms into some hamfisted form of "pseudo arrogance" towards countries like USA. It is very popular to call Americans stupid. It is sort of understood that the person doesn't really mean any human personally, more like the collective population. But if you'd imagine someone saying the same thing about other populations, let's take for provocations sake Israelites, then it is very hard to imagine a regular German making such statements. So I think because the influx of American/Anglo-Saxon culture it has become very important for Germans to acknowledge our own culture. But our norms limit this in an open sense, which is why a form of negative rethoric has developed both in the press as in casual conversation towards countries that have influence on us, It is therefore fair to call this Anti-Americanism. It is certainly not objectively correct: People like to laugh at Americans for their over-the-top patriotism and their rethoric (I support my country, but...) - words that do not really mean anything. But I remember that during the EM I was at a public viewing in an University audimax (so we are not talking about the "Unterschicht" either) and MANY of the people stood up for the German anthem and I even saw a few hands to the chest! So in my opinion we react just as other populations do, but our society, education and upbringing is more restricted in this regard. I feel it is very strange because on the outside we try to be modest but I think on the inside Germans really enjoy beeing called punctual and precise even if it wasn't even meant as a compliment. But if it happens to be the stereotype, we seem to gladly accept it into our culture and we smile about it beeing "our thing". It is because of this the Germans tend to be often arrogant or negative towards countries like the USA. Words like "Goddamn them Americans are stupid" are not uttered toward actual Americans, they are also not really meant towards real persons because everyone knows stereotypes are bullshit. But they are uttered nontheless and "nicht zu knapp". The thing I do in these situations is to bring up my American friends and my experience in the USA, and of course quickly we get to "I didn't really mean it like that". Yet, this kind of rethoric does exist - more than it should. Germans also do not realize at all how the public media is slanted. There is some sort of deep belief that the ARD and ZDF are more or less unbiased because they are federal TV. Yet, they play a huge role in Anti-Americanism. Fact is, that whenever a larger group gets together and the topic shifts towards world politics and eventually the USA, there are a lot of negative opinions of which many are neither fair nor objective.
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Nov 15, 2012 18:35
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^^ holy poo poo did my low content post just follow a wall of text XDxf86enodev posted:e2: I blame it all on Goethe and Schiller. And Kafka. Goethe is possibly the worst writer of all times. I had to read the entirety of "Das Leiden des jungen W." in college and I nearly slit my wrists because the whiny bs was drowning me in emo. Kafka and Schiller are awesome and if you haven't read them before you die your life wasn't worth it. And since it's playing right now, this is how people from my city feel about bullshit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wFPP1b_Yms
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Nov 15, 2012 18:39
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When Werther came out, Germans actually committed suicide because of how lovely and unfair all things are and the emotional pain. Goethe was literally the first Emo.
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Nov 15, 2012 19:30
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Interesting map: Wo wird in Deutschland rechtsextrem gewählt?
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Nov 16, 2012 14:01
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elwood posted:Interesting map: drat, 2%  Still, I feared worse before clicking on that link.
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Nov 16, 2012 14:43
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Eine Demokratie muss das aushalten.
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Nov 16, 2012 15:19
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Riso posted:Eine Demokratie muss das aushalten. Womit wir beim Thema NPD-Verbot wären.
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Nov 16, 2012 15:28
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I get a feeling that Germany could be paying more attention to holistic approaches of combating right-wing extremism. I keep hearing about tighter collaboration between various law enforcement agencies, and that is something that needs to happen, but to me it feels like they're trying to put a band-aid on something that goes much deeper. The observed recent rise in right extremism did not happen in a vacuum, and you won't fix it by simply going after anyone deemed a threat. There needs to be more discussion about the causes of this extremism and solutions for addressing the root of the issue, which is something I see far too little of.
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Nov 16, 2012 16:03
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elwood posted:Interesting map: Having 5 friends that either grew up or temporarily worked in Görlitz, Löbau, Zittau and Hoyerswerda, I had a feeling I'd know what the worst districts were going to be.
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Nov 16, 2012 17:38
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elwood posted:Interesting map: I wonder how a map for the US would look like, but can't find one.
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Nov 16, 2012 17:38
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snorch posted:I get a feeling that Germany could be paying more attention to holistic approaches of combating right-wing extremism. I keep hearing about tighter collaboration between various law enforcement agencies, and that is something that needs to happen, but to me it feels like they're trying to put a band-aid on something that goes much deeper. I thought the causes for most cases of right extremism were widely known though (unemployment, no prospects, lack of education etcs.), it's just that nobody cares enough to do something about those.
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Nov 16, 2012 17:41
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Grendels Dad posted:I thought the causes for most cases of right extremism were widely known though (unemployment, no prospects, lack of education etcs.), it's just that nobody cares enough to do something about those. Look, we've given untold billions to the East Germans already and they wasted all of it on unrealistic projects and subsidies for shady investors, so why give them any more to fix their problems? Who cares about the rising number of neo nazis as long as they're not in my neighborhood. 
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Nov 17, 2012 01:35
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Fiet Fiet posted:I wonder how a map for the US would look like, but can't find one.  I think you can figure out how to read it.
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Nov 17, 2012 09:41
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It always utterly confuses me how the American right wing has red as its colour.
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Nov 17, 2012 12:01
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Hip Flask posted:It always utterly confuses me how the American right wing has red as its colour. Yeah because obviously the colour red was invented by the socialists.
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Nov 17, 2012 15:56
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It is traditionally the colour of revolt, and it has been the colour claimed and ceded to socialism since at least 1871, so...
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Nov 17, 2012 18:38
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V. Illych L. posted:It is traditionally the colour of revolt, and it has been the colour claimed and ceded to socialism since at least 1871, so... It used to change all the time but in 2000 all of the news outlets used red to represent Republican-won districts, and since the election went on for so long everybody has just stuck to those colors. Here's a 1980 infographic showing the states Reagan won 
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Nov 19, 2012 03:41
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bronin posted:Womit wir beim Thema NPD-Verbot wären. Das kannste dir abschminken bis die Behörden einen anderen Weg den Glatzen fette Staatsbatzen zukommen zu lassen gefunden haben. Baseballschläger kosten teuer Geld. snorch posted:I get a feeling that Germany could be paying more attention to holistic approaches of combating right-wing extremism. I keep hearing about tighter collaboration between various law enforcement agencies, and that is something that needs to happen, but to me it feels like they're trying to put a band-aid on something that goes much deeper. Wait, when you say "tighter collaboration" you mean collaboration between law enforcement agencies and right-wing extremists, right? Otherwise your post makes no sense given the current situation.
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Nov 21, 2012 02:32
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Was someone talking about law-enforcement agencies collaborating with far-right elements and harboring similar sentiments? Oh right, that was me. Anyway, speaking of that, there's a fresh new poo poo-storm brewing in Frankfurt (am Main, you know, the one that's relevant and where outright racist poo poo is unexpected rather than the norm), where a strange case is making waves. Here's an article by the (rather conservative) FAZ: http://www.faz.net/aktuell/rhein-main/debatte-frank-und-majer-kein-platz-fuer-rassismus-11962070.html Tl; dr (in English): Derege Wevelsiep, Ethiopian-born guy who is now a German citizen (he was adopted as an orphan child and as such basically German in every way other than his race, I suppose) was brutally beaten by 4 cops following him arriving on the scene after his wife was accosted for allegedly not having a valid subway ticket, with the phrase "You're not in Africa anymore" being spoken. A concussion and various wounds have been medically confirmed, and several politicians have opined that he probably didn't beat himself up. Meanwhile, video of the incident has magically been deleted. Police probably thought that he's just another dumb negro who doesn't know what's what and would take his beating quietly and thereafter know his place. Unfortunately for them, he's an engineer who knows his rights and is now taking their asses to court. Several protests have already occurred. The social-democrat (ostensibly left-wing) mayor of Frankfurt has voiced his full confidence in the police and the public transportation authority. I'd say go with god, but he'd probably rather go with Thilo. Further reading (in German): http://www.fr-online.de/frankfurt/polizei-rassismus-frankfurt-wevelsiep-pruegel-polizisten-in-der-klemme,1472798,20806160.html http://www.fr-online.de/vorwuerfe-gegen-polizei/polizei-frankfurt-rassismus-wevelsiep-video-geloescht,20810664,20876230.html http://www.fr-online.de/vorwuerfe-g...4,20816100.html
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Nov 29, 2012 00:45
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The sentence came from train conductors, though. Funnily enough the police is now sueing the victim for calling them Nazis. It'd be hilarious if the court went "Yeah well a statement of fact is not usually an insult, you have no case.", but they won't do that.
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Nov 29, 2012 14:27
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ArchangeI posted:The sentence came from train conductors, though. Funnily enough the police is now sueing the victim for calling them Nazis. It'd be hilarious if the court went "Yeah well a statement of fact is not usually an insult, you have no case.", but they won't do that. Not from the train conductor but from the ticket inspector, who allegedly said it when waiting for the police after Mrs.Wevelsiep - didn't have a valid ticket when controlled - refused to pay the increased fare/fine for not having a valid ticket - refused to show identification which would make it likely that the Nazi slur came first and the "we are not in Africa" was a reaction of the ticket inspector to being called a Nazi by a generally uncooperative and argumentative passenger. Anecdotally I've seen this happen a few times in FFM public transporation, captured "Schwarzfahrer"(person without a valid ticket) being argumentative and insulting assholes, while the ticket inspectors stayed polite. In one case it went as far as calling the ticket inspector "Nazi Scherge" that had lost her job in one Sachsenhausen to continue it in the other one. But that was a drunk little punk. Still, it doesn't explain the injuries, but it's a more likely chain of events than racism out of the blue in a city with nearly 40 % minorities.
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Nov 29, 2012 17:14
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Am I the only one who "Homo-Ehe" has a very weird ring to? When did we stop saying "Gleichgeschlechtliche Ehe"?
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Dec 4, 2012 11:00
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Yeah it's not like we've ever said Hetero-Ehe before so calling it Homo-Ehe is iffy and borders on insulting, sounds like something the Bild would put on the front page.
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Dec 4, 2012 11:04
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I'm actualy kind of astonished by this whole debate in Germany. Why is nobody in this discussion talking about simply making marriage available for everybody ? I always assumed we were more liberal then this. How does marriage work in the EU, btw ? If two men get married in the Netherlands and move to Germany, is their marriage suddenly not valid here ?
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Dec 4, 2012 11:48
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MonikaTSarn posted:I'm actualy kind of astonished by this whole debate in Germany. Why is nobody in this discussion talking about simply making marriage available for everybody ? I always assumed we were more liberal then this. I assume that's because there's a sizable portion of the population that is uncomfortable with the idea of gay couples adopting children, which would have to be possible for them, if they were able to marry. A foreign same-sex marriage would be recognized as a civil union.
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Dec 4, 2012 12:08
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Duzzy Funlop posted:Am I the only one who "Homo-Ehe" has a very weird ring to? if I remember that right, back when civil unions were first implemented, it was called "Schwulen-Ehe".
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Dec 4, 2012 12:39
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The whole discussion is absurd anyway. In 40-50 years people will look back and think "What were they thinking?". I don't get the "marriage is under special protection by the constitution, therefore civil unions (aka gay marriage) can't be treated equally" argument. The constitution grants marriages special protection. No lawmaker can take those rights away. That doesn't mean however that other institutions like civil unions can't be granted equal rights if there is enough backing by lawmakers to get it through parliament, it just means that, unlike marriage rights, those rights could theoretical later be taken away. Let's just make marriage a religious thing and keep the state out of it. Call everything else civil unions, change the constitution to reflect it and be done with the whole mess.
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Dec 4, 2012 12:52
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Lots of old people here are still upholding their traditional Christian values. I suspect if Germans cared as much about their politicians' private opinions as Americans do, the CDU would be referencing their Christian beliefs a lot more often (whether true or not). They are already using the religious argument against stem cell research and medically assisted suicide. Not to forget immigration. Our Judeo-Christian tradition 
Ententod fucked around with this message at 14:12 on Dec 4, 2012 |
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Dec 4, 2012 14:10
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