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Left Ventricle posted:Toyota has redesigned the RAV4, and in the process, removed everything that made it unique in its segment. Weirdly, it looks kind of like a Subaru. And not in a good way, either. Though, of the things you've said, the only thing that is really a downside is the space-saver spare. Nowadays, even midsize sedans are moving to exclusively I4 powertrains, and I agree that the hatch was always hinged on the wrong side for a LHD market. Also a second, in that it doesn't look actively hideous like the CRV.
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Dec 2, 2012 04:01
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Left Ventricle posted:Toyota has redesigned the RAV4, and in the process, removed everything that made it unique in its segment. Well you could get the Escape with a V6, so it wasn't unique in that respect. True that it was a rather large engine in a rather small car though.
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Dec 2, 2012 04:28
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Left Ventricle posted:Toyota has redesigned the RAV4, and in the process, removed everything that made it unique in its segment. I'm not seeing a single reason to stop and check out the new RAV4 while driving to the Ford lot. Speaking of which, does Ford currently have any model that isn't best-in-class or close to it? It feels weird after growing up in a GM-dominated household but Ford just seems to be on the ball better than anyone else who competes in their tier.
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Dec 5, 2012 03:37
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Which Ford product is bead in class other than the Mustang? I can't think of a single one.
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Dec 5, 2012 04:03
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Throatwarbler posted:Which Ford product is bead in class other than the Mustang? I can't think of a single one. F-150, Fusion, Fiesta, Flex, Transit Connect, etc. New Escape is kind of ugly but supposedly competitive, though the cute ute segment is way too close to ever call a real winner (you could say this about the Fusion, too, obviously). Stuff like the Transit Connect, the E-series, Ranger, and to a lesser extent the Flex, win by dint of being the only one or nearly the only one in their class. The upcoming (full-size non-connect) Transit will probably be in a similar situation. For real, the new Transit Connect 7-passenger version looks like it could be a pretty good cheap kid hauler in addition to commercial work:  OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Dec 5, 2012 |
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Dec 5, 2012 04:21
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Cream_Filling posted:F-150, Fusion, Fiesta, Flex, Transit Connect, etc. New Escape is kind of ugly but supposedly competitive, though the cute ute segment is way too close to ever call a real winner (you could say this about the Fusion, too, obviously). The F-150 is not a better truck than the Ram, the Fiesta doesn't sell well at all and is definitely not a better car than the Sonic.  I guess the Focus ST may be the top in it's class of VW-GTIs-that-are-not-VWs.
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Dec 5, 2012 04:32
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Throatwarbler posted:The F-150 is not a better truck than the Ram, the Fiesta doesn't sell well at all and is definitely not a better car than the Sonic. I may have misread the Fiesta sales figures, so will have to double check on that part, actually. But the F-150 has a decent claim at being better than the Ram. I don't want to recreate the debate scene from every rural dive bar in the country, but in terms of stuff like engine choices and design combined with sales, you could at least back up that claim. If you want to rephrase it more conservatively, Ford has a strong contender in basically every segment it's in. Nothing they make is a bad buy or utterly terrible except for stuff like the Ranger where the segment has literally zero competition.
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Dec 5, 2012 04:43
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You know they don't make the Ranger any more, right? 2011 was the last model year of that truck.
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Dec 5, 2012 04:45
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Throatwarbler posted:The F-150 is not a better truck than the Ram, the Fiesta doesn't sell well at all and is definitely not a better car than the Sonic. The f-150 is a better vehicle by almost every measure. Sales, performance, towing, economy, and ranking by most auto mags. Cream_Filling posted:I may have misread the Fiesta sales figures, so will have to double check on that part, actually. The explorer is a dog, and in the bottom of a dying segment filled with other garbage. Powershift fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Dec 5, 2012 |
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Dec 5, 2012 04:48
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Q_res posted:You know they don't make the Ranger any more, right? 2011 was the last model year of that truck. Eh, the sales figures and market breakdown I'm looking at still lists it as a model so I stuck it in the list.
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Dec 5, 2012 04:49
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Cream_Filling posted:Eh, the sales figures and market breakdown I'm looking at still lists it as a model so I stuck it in the list. Maybe double-check them and make sure they're from this century.
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Dec 5, 2012 04:59
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GETCHA PAPER UP posted:Maybe double-check them and make sure they're from this century. No, these are up to Q1 2012 but thanks bro.
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Dec 5, 2012 05:04
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Throatwarbler posted:the Fiesta doesn't sell well at all and is definitely not a better car than the Sonic. By what metric? (the better car bit, not the better seller bit)
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Dec 5, 2012 06:11
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dissss posted:By what metric? (the better car bit, not the better seller bit) The DSG is troublesome, the manual is only a 5 speed and it has less power and torque and also gets slightly worse crash safety scores. The hatchback IMO is probably better looking than most of the competition but that's about it. Powershift posted:The f-150 is a better vehicle by almost every measure. Sales, performance, towing, economy, and ranking by most auto mags. The Ram 1500 can be optioned to tow up to 11,500lbs, vs 11,300 for the Ford F150 with the twin turbo V6 and 10,000 for the 5.0l V8. The 3.6l V6 Ram HFE with 8 speed gets better fuel economy than the 3.7l V6 Ford. The 5.7l engine is also more powerful than either the 5.0l V8 or the twin turbo V6 although granted I think that might be with 89 octane fuel. The Ram also has coil springs and a panhard rod in the rear instead of leaf springs and is rated as being better handling than all its competitors by every review because of this. quote:The explorer is a dog, and in the bottom of a dying segment filled with other garbage. Well the 4 cyl Explorer is certainly not fast, but they sold 14,000 of them last months, similar to Focus and Fusion and with much higher margins, and much more than Taurus or Mustang, so if it's a "dying segment" then I guess Ford is in trouble. Good thing it's not at the "bottom" of the segment either since Explorer outsold both Chevy Traverse and GMC Acadia combined, Highlander, Pilot, Pathfinder and (inexplicably)Durango, which by my measure actually puts it at the top of the segment.
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Dec 5, 2012 06:35
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Throatwarbler posted:Which Ford product is bead in class other than the Mustang? I can't think of a single one. The new Fusion looks like it will be a strong contender, the reception has been great so far. Everyone I show that car to loves it. Although knocking off the Accord/Camry is a tall order.
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Dec 5, 2012 06:57
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Sir Tonk posted:The new Fusion looks like it will be a strong contender, the reception has been great so far. Everyone I show that car to loves it. I'm not really sold on the styling but I guess that's just my opinion. Other than that, the base model 2.5l engine and the 1.6l turbo both merely match the fuel economy of the base model Accord and Camry, and gets beat by the base model Altima. The 2.0l turbo range topper only matches the power of the V6 Accord and Altima but doesn't have as much power. Generally the new Fusion range looks like it has a slight edge over the Malibu and Chrysler 200, is about at the same level as the Passat and Camry, but not quite up to the level of Accord or Altima. I guess I could see the 2.0l turbo AWD model stealing some Subaru buyers now that the turbo Legacy is gone, but Subaru buyers are notorious assholes who just keep buying more Subarus no matter how ugly they are.
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Dec 5, 2012 07:17
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GETCHA PAPER UP posted:Maybe double-check them and make sure they're from this century. Ford sold 28 Rangers in November 2012, down from 7,056 in November 2011, when it was still in production.
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Dec 5, 2012 07:19
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Throatwarbler posted:The Ram 1500 can be optioned to tow up to 11,500lbs, vs 11,300 for the Ford F150 with the twin turbo V6 and 10,000 for the 5.0l V8. The 3.6l V6 Ram HFE with 8 speed gets better fuel economy than the 3.7l V6 Ford. The 5.7l engine is also more powerful than either the 5.0l V8 or the twin turbo V6 although granted I think that might be with 89 octane fuel. The Ram also has coil springs and a panhard rod in the rear instead of leaf springs and is rated as being better handling than all its competitors by every review because of this. The 5.0 is positioned against the 4.7L v8, the ecoboost is positioned against the hemi. The 5.7 has more horsepower but less torque, and peak numbers only tell half the story. The HFE is the only ram 1500 model that bests the ford counterpart and because the v6 is now an added cost option, the RAM HFE is $4000 more than a base f-150, which even at $5.00 a gallon would take over 250,000 miles to even out. In canada the difference is $12,000 between a base f-150 and an HFE ram, which would take 800,000 miles to make up at $5.00 a gallon. Throatwarbler posted:Well the 4 cyl Explorer is certainly not fast, but they sold 14,000 of them last months, similar to Focus and Fusion and with much higher margins, and much more than Taurus or Mustang, so if it's a "dying segment" then I guess Ford is in trouble. Good thing it's not at the "bottom" of the segment either since Explorer outsold both Chevy Traverse and GMC Acadia combined, Highlander, Pilot, Pathfinder and (inexplicably)Durango, which by my measure actually puts it at the top of the segment. So your measure is sales meaning the explorer is top of the segment, but in the case of trucks sales don't matter so the f-150 isn't top of the segment. It seems like you're just in here for a fight.
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Dec 5, 2012 07:22
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Powershift posted:The 5.0 is positioned against the 4.7L v8, the ecoboost is positioned against the hemi. The 5.7 has more horsepower but less torque, and peak numbers only tell half the story. The HFE is the only ram 1500 model that bests the ford counterpart and because the v6 is now an added cost option, the RAM HFE is $4000 more than a base f-150, which even at $5.00 a gallon would take over 250,000 miles to even out. In canada the difference is $12,000 between a base f-150 and an HFE ram, which would take 800,000 miles to make up at $5.00 a gallon. No, the 4.7l Ram starts at C$19k, can you get a 5.0l Ford for $19k? The stupid ford.ca site isn't loading for me in Chrome for some reason so I'm having trouble getting Ford prices. The V6/8sp is a C$1250 option over the 4.7l, HFE is an extra option package on top of the V6/8 speed that adds 1mpg combined, you can get a 1500 ST with V6 and 8 speed for C$22k that still beats the similarly priced F150 3.7l V6 in fuel economy. "Price" wasn't one of your original criteria anyway. quote:So your measure is sales meaning the explorer is top of the segment, but in the case of trucks sales don't matter so the f-150 isn't top of the segment. It seems like you're just in here for a fight. Sorry, I meant that the Explorer was the top seller, that's all. I agree it's not the best car in its segment in some respects but are you saying it's the worst(bottom) car in the segment? Because I don't think that's true either.
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Dec 5, 2012 07:43
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Throatwarbler posted:The DSG is troublesome, the manual is only a 5 speed and it has less power and torque and also gets slightly worse crash safety scores. The hatchback IMO is probably better looking than most of the competition but that's about it. Didn't realise there was such a difference in spec (locally the Sonic equivalent has a horrible 1.6 and five speed only).
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Dec 5, 2012 09:19
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Throatwarbler posted:
I don't think a difference of 200lbs for towing really matters in the real world.
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Dec 5, 2012 09:31
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dissss posted:Didn't realise there was such a difference in spec (locally the Sonic equivalent has a horrible 1.6 and five speed only). Yeah you only get the 6 speed with the turbo engine, and the Ford DSG is a 6 speed so for most buyers who just buy autos it's probably not much of a difference, G-Mach posted:I don't think a difference of 200lbs for towing really matters in the real world. No, and really it's just a matter of the Ram having an optional higher final drive ratio than the Ford, not really anything else about the truck. But you know, one is "class leading" and one isn't.  To be fair the V6 Ford I think has a rather higher tow rating than the V6 Ram.
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Dec 5, 2012 09:36
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the pickup truck debate in a nutshell: http://www.versiononevinyl.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1_15_45
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Dec 5, 2012 10:23
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I love that they actually have a 'Calvin pissing on Saturn' vinyl. Most of the brands on there are least have some form of rivalry or something where you can imagine some knuckledragger buying it 'cause that shits funny as hell man'. Who exactly has a hate-on for Saturn? Scion tC owners?
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Dec 5, 2012 11:37
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2ndclasscitizen posted:http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2013-nascar-ss-revealed-in-las-vegas/ Third time lucky maybe?
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Dec 5, 2012 12:11
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Cat Terrist posted:Third time lucky maybe? Hmmm....
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Dec 5, 2012 12:28
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Throatwarbler posted:The DSG is troublesome, the manual is only a 5 speed and it has less power and torque and also gets slightly worse crash safety scores.
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Dec 5, 2012 14:29
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MonkeyNutZ posted:Am I missing something? The Sonic puts down 138hp with it's top engine (The 1.4 turbo) whereas the base model Focus makes 159hp. We're talking about the Fiesta.
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Dec 5, 2012 15:06
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Throatwarbler posted:We're talking about the Fiesta. Yeah but isn't the Sonic in the Focus' segment and the Spark up against the Fiesta?
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Dec 5, 2012 15:07
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Is someone seriously defending Dodge trucks? The loving things are designed to look good on paper, see the 200 lbs higher tow rating. When it comes to the daily grind, and I mean being used as a truck, not driving Joe Accountant to his office job, they don't come close to Ford/GM/Toyota offerings.
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Dec 5, 2012 15:09
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Sir Tonk posted:Yeah but isn't the Sonic in the Focus' segment and the Spark up against the Fiesta? No? Why would you think that? The Spark is an A segment car, it competes with the FIAT 500 and Scion IQ. Here's some content. GM is selling its celebrated Strasbourg transmission plant. It's being converted to make the new ZF 8 speeds. The ZF 8HP series of 8 speed automatics is becoming a game changer in the realm of transmissions. It's lighter than most of the 6 speed models it replaces and can be equipped with an Accusump for start/stop operation. Most reviews rate it as much better than the 8 speed Aisin that Toyota uses. It's already used in everything from the Audi A4 to Bentley Continental to BMW 3 series to 7 Series to Rolls Royce Phantom. Now it's also being made by Chrysler for all their RWD applications, from Ram trucks to Grand Cherokee to the 300C to the new Maserati Quattroporte. Has there ever been a more widely used/produced transmission? I bet that the 8 speed that GM is planning for the new Corvette is probably going to be this one, and not the Aisin/Toyota one.
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Dec 5, 2012 15:25
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dissss posted:Can it help with DI carbon issues though? I've been told the only way of dealing with it is a periodic manual clean out. We'll get a look at this when I do mine, it's not like I don't romp on it regularly 
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Dec 5, 2012 16:43
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Q_res posted:I love that they actually have a 'Calvin pissing on Saturn' vinyl. Most of the brands on there are least have some form of rivalry or something where you can imagine some knuckledragger buying it 'cause that shits funny as hell man'. Did Tusen Takk get his Santa gift yet?
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Dec 5, 2012 16:59
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Q_res posted:I love that they actually have a 'Calvin pissing on Saturn' vinyl. Most of the brands on there are least have some form of rivalry or something where you can imagine some knuckledragger buying it 'cause that shits funny as hell man'. Probably Saturn owners.
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Dec 5, 2012 19:13
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Throatwarbler posted:No? Why would you think that? The Spark is an A segment car, it competes with the FIAT 500 and Scion IQ. I had them mixed up, forgot about the Cruze.
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Dec 5, 2012 19:31
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New BMW 4 series::  http://www.bmwblog.com/2012/12/05/world-premiere-bmw-4-series-coupe/ I wonder if it's going to be like a baby 6 and not come with the base engine and start at a non-trivial premium over the 3 series.
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Dec 5, 2012 19:40
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ynotony posted:New BMW 4 series:: Isn't this meant to be a replacement for the 3 series coupe?
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Dec 5, 2012 20:00
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I think it looks really pretty great, though still a little mixed on those side vents. The bummer is that it is almost undoubtedly going to be much more expensive than the 3-series coupe has traditionally been, taking a page out of Audi's book with the A4/A5. The 3 coupe has always carried a small premium over the 3 sedan, but typically with a few more standard features, but I bet the gap will be a lot wider now with the 3/4 seres split. Hopefully BMW really differentiate it from the 3-series to make up for the price increase, like a lot more standard "premium" features and maybe more aggressive engine tunes (since it's all turbos now)?
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Dec 5, 2012 20:05
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Cream_Filling posted:Probably Saturn owners. My mom has owned several Saturns and loves them.
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Dec 5, 2012 20:08
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Cream_Filling posted:Isn't this meant to be a replacement for the 3 series coupe? Yes. I don't get the reasoning behind it at all, but I'm not in marketing. The lower part of the rear bumper is really busy.
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Dec 5, 2012 20:09
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