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SurreptitiousMuffin posted:Adverbs are fine, it's that most writers tend towards using too many, so beating them over the head with "ADVERBS WILL EAT YOU" is an easy way to correct that. They're hard to use right, so avoiding them until you've got a more solid grasp of other elements can be a good idea. This goes for pretty much everything mentioned in the 10% solution. The goal isn't to cut every adverb, or words like "was," "of," or "that," but to cut down on their abuse. If you get in the habit of cutting those words, you'll get a better feel for when they're useful and necessary.
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Dec 6, 2012 07:46
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Stuporstar posted:This goes for pretty much everything mentioned in the 10% solution. The goal isn't to cut every adverb, or words like "was," "of," or "that," but to cut down on their abuse. If you get in the habit of cutting those words, you'll get a better feel for when they're useful and necessary. It's true, I read The 10% Solution at Stupor's advice and it helped a lot.
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Dec 6, 2012 07:48
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Tartarus Sauce posted:*Characters, scene types, or subjects that are hardest for you to write about, and why. Not to poo poo on your much appreciated participation, but I think we need a paradigm shift in regards to CC's writing segment as a whole. We are rehashing several topics, and it becomes a circular conversation. I know I suggested some weakass ideas before, so I'm guilty too. Let's become more publishing-oriented as a group. Let's get our names displayed as ink on wood, the printed page. Maybe pick a magazine out and goonrush it TD style. I mean--gently caress: tons of people broke their first pub cherry in the TD, and we can do that regularly. Goonrush the gently caress out of some magazines and start some careers.
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Dec 6, 2012 07:48
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Well, actually! That segues me into a question that ISN'T about fiction writing but there doesn't seem to be a non-fiction thread that isn't creative, so whatever. How exactly does one break into non-fiction essay writing? Like... Rolling Stone, or Mother Jones, or The New Republic. What have you. Is it like fiction where you just submit, submit, submit and hope somebody likes your ideas? Or is it more like how (I've been told) journalism functions, where it's less on commission and more where they hire you for a position?
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Dec 6, 2012 07:57
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To that end; the Novel & Short Story Writer's Market 2013 came out last month and it, true to its name, catalogues literary agents and magazines that are taking submissions, as well as listing their preferred genres and whether they are receptive to unsolicited queries and previously-unpublished clients. There's also some helpful articles towards the front about whatever (self publishing, writing a good villain, that sort of thing). I picked last year's copy up at Barnes & Noble, so they do stock them in actual bookstores.
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Dec 6, 2012 08:01
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Jonked posted:Well, actually! That segues me into a question that ISN'T about fiction writing but there doesn't seem to be a non-fiction thread that isn't creative, so whatever. How exactly does one break into non-fiction essay writing? Like... Rolling Stone, or Mother Jones, or The New Republic. What have you. Six/half a dozen I published an article in a non-fic magazine. It was a hit-piece for a client arguing against a previously published article. If you want to hit the big boys, like rolling stone, you can do it by freelance. They sometimes buy poo poo if you have an exclusive, but you may take a loss on it just to get noticed, though. A lot of mags have staff writers, but you gotta be willing to do some crazy poo poo to get a good story. It's more than essays if you want to break in. You gotta go full gonzo or already be a respected expert in an area. So, for example, if you embedded yourself with the Syrian opposition, as they're considering dropping chemical weapons on your rear end, and you get exclusive info and interviews with the leadership, the big mags will eat that up and pay you well for it. But if you got something to say that you think needs said, I'd say you should just write and submit it. See if they'll print it. Won't hurt you to try.
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Dec 6, 2012 08:10
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Duotrope, friend to all who don't want the big market guide hanging around in their lives, is moving to subscription for full-features. It'll be interesting to see exactly what bits remain free to use. I've seen a few lit mags pulling/considering pulling their listings because of that. Thoughts? I know people here like it. To answer an earlier question, I'm not exactly sure how to write a maximalist piece of prose. It does not compute. I have read an awful loving lot of them, but can't actually write them. People like McCarthy can pull this poo poo off (mostly). If I try, it turns out overwrought, over written and over-egged. So despite not particularly liking him, I usually get something along the lines of 'oh, I see-- you must idolize Hemmingway'. I'm not big on adverbs, but that's just a personal preference. Am currently waiting on a big fat rejection or two. My one from the Atlantic's student writing competition is getting lonely because it's had a box to itself for something like a decade now.
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Dec 6, 2012 13:15
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Molly Bloom posted:Duotrope, friend to all who don't want the big market guide hanging around in their lives, is moving to subscription for full-features. It'll be interesting to see exactly what bits remain free to use. I've seen a few lit mags pulling/considering pulling their listings because of that. Thoughts? I know people here like it. Now here's a topic (not that we need to organize them or go through them like it's a meeting). Why can't they just put ads on the site? Sure, it would be obnoxious, but better than paying more in a year than for a copy of that big rear end Writer's Market book. And if magazines pull their listings, then Duotrope will loose the edge it had over looking in a big book and having to scour around for places to submit on your own. A paid app would be a better idea, or locking only some features behind a subscription. At 5 bucks a month, it's not really worth it when what you list isn't exactly yielding high earnings for the people who use it.
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Dec 6, 2012 14:02
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5 bucks a month is nothing. It shouldn't even be a consideration. It's the cost of a beer or half a pack of cigarettes. If you want to use Duotrope's service, subscribe. If it's "not worth it" as you say, then don't pay that cost-of-a-beer once a month. It's pretty simple.
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Dec 6, 2012 14:05
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Martello posted:5 bucks a month is nothing. It shouldn't even be a consideration. It's the cost of a beer or half a pack of cigarettes. If you want to use Duotrope's service, subscribe. If it's "not worth it" as you say, then don't pay that cost-of-a-beer once a month. It's pretty simple. Martello broke the forums with his lovely posts again. Anyway, as I was about to add, the cost is worth it for such a sweet resource. Also, give those smaller and fledgling mags some love. People who don't have a publishing history and try to place their stories in only in New Yorker or some other big mag are dumb. If for some reason you don't want to do duotrope, there's plenty of other googleable resources to find magazines to publish in. Bonus: if you like to publish online, many magazines only ask for first English print rights, so you can still upload it to Amazon (or try other mags that do reprints) with the added value of being able to slap "originally printed in XMag".
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Dec 6, 2012 22:17
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I've been really lazy about submitting lately and haven't been on Duotrope in months, so this thread was the first I'd heard about it moving to a pay system. At first I was annoyed, because why couldn't they just run ads? But really, $5 a month is nothing, and if I'm paying for the service I'm more likely to use it as much as possible (i.e. getting off my rear end and submitting) so it's probably a good thing. I just hope that too many publications don't pull their listings, or it won't really be worth it.
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Dec 6, 2012 22:18
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Side Thing related to the TD publishing bit: there's another contest by the same people running right now. Subject is MMA. Not my cup of tea but I'm sure there's a few people here who could put something good together. Deadline December 15th. That's not a lot of time but it's way more than we had to knock our Cipher Sister entries together and look how that turned out.
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Dec 6, 2012 22:26
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SurreptitiousMuffin posted:Side Thing related to the TD publishing bit: there's another contest by the same people running right now. Subject is MMA. Not my cup of tea but I'm sure there's a few people here who could put something good together. Deadline December 15th. That's not a lot of time but it's way more than we had to knock our Cipher Sister entries together and look how that turned out. Haha, that's awesome. I'd hop in if I had the time and I wouldn't make everything super gay. (Not a knock against MMA, I actually love the sport.) On the subject of publishing and short fiction anthologies, do smaller publications or aggregates like Duotrope have any advertising partnerships with large book stores or groups like NaNoWriMo? It seems like everybody wants to sell a story, but ain't nobody want to buy them, so what was once a thriving sub-genre -- where half the nerds and their mom had subscriptions to Asimov's, for example -- has been much reduced. I didn't read short stories either until I joined a writing group this summer. I wanted to try some short fiction, but it seemed very stupid to be writing in a format I wasn't familiar with, and as a result I've been reading short stories almost exclusively for the last few months. And you know, there's a lot to like and a lot to learn. I've especially enjoyed the genre collections edited by Ellen Datlow and Terri Windling; thanks to them I've discovered Australian fantasist Margo Lanagan and Jeffery Ford's wonderful "The Night Whiskey." Someone please correct me if this kind of thing is already happening, as I may very well be wrong due my inexperience with the business-oriented aspects of publishing, but short story publishers and especially NaNo would be a match made in heaven. Finished your novel? Great! Now that it's December, why don't you give back to the community by buying lit subscriptions for your friends and family this Christmas? The range of anthologies available is more than enough to please anyone (and more accessible than ever thanks to digital readers), and hundreds of thousands of writers participate in NaNo every year. The idea seems so mutually beneficial I almost can't believe it isn't happening already.
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Dec 6, 2012 23:35
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I have a question regarding 3rd person viewpoints and how they're classified. Which of these is specifically omniscient? Limited? 1)Possible POV of any character. 2)Multiple POVs, typically all on protagonist's side, occasional antagonist POV. 3)Single POV + No Outside Narration: Only what John personally sees. 4)Single POV + Outside Narration: John has no actual view of the cloud of dust/travelers, but we're told about it anyway. --As the sun set over the town of Smithville, an expanding cloud of dust on the horizon heralded the approach of travelers. John, polishing his harpoon in his basement, took a moment to register the fearful shouts of the townsfolk outside. Also, Mind Reading: A)Full Mind Reading: Able to hear their thoughts directly --That's odd, John thought, Susan didn't have a dorsal fin last night. B)Limited Mind Reading: Summary of thoughts --John considered this for a moment, mulling over the consequences and trying to guess what Susan's reaction would be. c)No Mind Reading --John stopped in his tracks, furrowing his brow. After a moment, he turned back towards the sheriff and replied, "She had it coming. Besides, there's other fish in the sea." Hopefully my question isn't too confusing, but when people say 3rd person omniscient, I take that to mean 1+A, and 3rd person limited is...I have no clue. Are these just vague terms with a variety of permutations?
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Dec 7, 2012 07:47
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Subway Ninja posted:I have a question regarding 3rd person viewpoints and how they're classified. Which of these is specifically omniscient? Limited? You can think of point of view as being like a camera and ask 'who sees?' and 'how much' First person- the narrator is 'I'. Second person- Remember 'Choose Your own Adventure' books? That's the biggest sample of second person writing you're going to find. Third person- the narrator is not a character. 'I' appears only in dialogue. He, she and it are the order of the day here. Now on to what you call 'mind reading'- that's omniscience. First person- by definition of a first person narrative, you're in the character's head. You know what they know, see what they see. You are thus limited by that characters awareness. The camera is, effectively, behind their eyes. Second person- this is a weird thing. I have never come up with a good way to describe this one. Takers? Third person- here we can split into clear categories. Third person, limited- there is an authorial voice that refers to all characters as he/she/it. There is no narrator 'I'. But we are limited in that there is no evidence of what you have called 'mind reading'. We see characters actions and hear their words, but we don't have the private access to their thoughts. The camera is on them, but not looking out from within them. Third person, omniscient- there is an authorial voice that refers to he/she/it, with no narrator 'I'. The camera is on the characters, but there is the equivalent of a voice over taking place, letting us know what it going on in their heads. A good (and rare these days) television example of this is 'Peep Show'. There is a grade between the two extremes. It's rare that we would be able to always 'hear' every thought in a character's head. Now to complicate things, there is something called 'free indirect speech'. You will sometimes find books written this way, sometimes a paragraph of it and sometimes you'll only see a few lines. Free indirect speech- the narration is in the 3rd person, but it takes on characteristics of a first person narrative. This is not to say that the narration suddenly begins to use the 'I'. Rather the tone, the choice of vocabulary and the ideas become those of the character being reported in the 3rd person. I'll use the example off Wikipedia for this: Wikipedia posted:
So, as you'll see, in the third instance the second sentence is reporting a character's thought, still using the third person--not,however, using 'thought'--but using something that approximates the character's voice. To address the issue of multiple POVs- it depends. Are we in the character's head, one at at time and looking out? Is there an I? Then it's 1st. Are we looking at the characters from the outside? Is there no I? 3rd.. Are we with the main characters, in their heads and there's 'we' all the time? Congrats, you've written The Virgin Suicides in great Greek chorus style and you don't need this explanation.
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Dec 7, 2012 11:04
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squeegee posted:I just hope that too many publications don't pull their listings, or it won't really be worth it. Do publishers pay for their listings? I don't think they do.
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Dec 7, 2012 13:19
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Molly Bloom posted:Excellent Summary Very informative, thanks for taking the time to reply so thoroughly. I think the main thing that was tripping me up was that I was expecting separate specific designations for each permutation, rather than an inclusion of grades under a few terms. The free indirect speech is something I know I've seen before but never realized it was a "thing". I'll have to read up on that some more. Thanks again.
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Dec 7, 2012 16:58
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freebooter posted:Do publishers pay for their listings? I don't think they do. Not at the moment, but apparently some publishers are considering pulling their listings because they don't agree with the move to a pay system.
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Dec 7, 2012 17:06
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Erik Shawn-Bohner posted:I agree. Cyclops is probably annoyed with the prevalent idea that newbie editors (or just idiots) flip out instantly when they see that you've used an adverb. It's the same poo poo with active/passive voice. I sometimes use passive voice, and I think it works great in the instances I use it... For anyone who kneejerk-cuts adverbs (or puritanically stands by "said" for dialog attribution) might read Catch-22 as an example of eschewing the safer forms--and making it work--by putting a LOT of effort into it. (Or it might drive you insane being forced face-to-face with it all.) Point being, it CAN be done, but these techniques are often misused as crutches towards the furthering development of more important skills (subtleties in dialog/setting, versatility in nouns/verbs, etc.) that can convey the same information. Then again, sometimes a motherfucker's gotta dance recklessly--nothin' wrong with that.
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Dec 8, 2012 04:11
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Over in Thunderdome, Peel made the comment that "minimum word counts are the devil." Edit: And since I'm dumb sometimes I thought he meant "maximum" word counts. So anyway, while  pretty easily, and not all of them are really worth putting on the page or reading. Having to keep to a low word count like 500 or 800 really makes you go through a story and cut extraneous words. Being able to tell a great story in as few words as possible is an art and a trained skill, and we can all work on it.Using myself as an example, the first few Thunderdome stories I wrote were tough for me to keep to the Martello fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Dec 9, 2012 |
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Dec 8, 2012 18:23
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Looking at it in that light, how do you do when you end up with fewer words than expected? If you end up with more space do you want to keep what you have as the best example of what you set out to do, or do you revise it? I'm still under the average length of a novel with my project; a few thousand words are earmarked for two scenes that I haven't found a good place for yet but will still need to be in there. I think once it's done it will be "and here is my (short) novel."
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Dec 8, 2012 18:37
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Rose Wreck posted:Looking at it in that light, how do you do when you end up with fewer words than expected? If you end up with more space do you want to keep what you have as the best example of what you set out to do, or do you revise it? That's fine. If you don't have any more words to put in there, don't try to do it artificially. You'll just bloat the story.
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Dec 8, 2012 18:39
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I think I'm a bit odd in that regard - I've never had much trouble estimating or predicting how long a story would be, especially if I outline it beforehand. So in general, I've found having a maximum word limit almost comforting in a way. Arbitrary limitations aren't necessarily limiting or bad in a creative work - the requirements of a villanelle, for example. On the flip side, I had a great deal more difficulty with a minimum word limit. Having so much freedom is almost paralyzing. I dunno, I just don't think it's too hard to figure out how long it'll take to get from plot point A to plot point B. To me it seems like a very helpful constraint on the story. Minimum word counts do seem like the devil though.
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Dec 8, 2012 21:52
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Maximum counts always seem to sneak up on me. When I see the number getting close I start freaking out Wrap It Up-style. And then I have to shift the story and delete a lot of the fun middle stuff so I can give the ending more room to breathe. In the end, it adds up to a much better, tighter story, but I hate doing it.
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Dec 8, 2012 23:14
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See, I've got the opposite problem. My background is in poetry, so "100 words of less" is easy and a minimum count is a killer. I always feel a bit like I'm doing surgery with a sledgehammer when I bring the word count up. Then people love and it I reread it later and go "yeah that's actually better" but at the time, it feels wrong to write.
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Dec 8, 2012 23:20
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An upper limit to words is a good training tool, but the lower limit in the last Thunderdome really threw me because I had to find more to say without bloating it. Which turned out to be an interesting exercise.
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Dec 9, 2012 03:10
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Haha wow, I'm an idiot. I thought you meant maximum word counts. Even though I copied what you wrote and then typed "minimum word count" myself. 
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Dec 9, 2012 03:38
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A mistake that leads to good discussion isn't a... well, ok, it is a mistake. But it still led to good discussion.
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Dec 9, 2012 03:53
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nvm wrong thread
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Dec 10, 2012 19:50
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First off i'm hitting this point where I have a lot of ideas for characters and stories to write about but I'm not sure which to actually do first. Second I have an idea for a comic about a hero who feels depressed and and frustrated about how no matter how much he does, it overall does little to actually change the city and the lives of it's people. Having to go against people who aren't evil, just desperate to provide for themselves or their families; People who are just misguided and need help, not a fist to the face. And how many actually evil men and people he puts away that prey on the weak, there will always be another to take their place. I was wondering if anyone could recommend and books (Or anything really) That hits those same themes. BigRed0427 fucked around with this message at 05:34 on Dec 13, 2012 |
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Dec 13, 2012 05:16
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BigRed0427 posted:Second I have an idea for a comic about a hero who feels depressed and and frustrated about how no matter how much he does, it overall does little to actually change the city and the lives of it's people. Having to go against people who aren't evil, just desperate to provide for themselves or their families; People who are just misguided and need help, not a fist to the face. And how many actually evil men and people he puts away that prey on the weak, there will always be another to take their place. I was wondering if anyone could recommend and books (Or anything really) That hits those same themes. Look at the Superman series "Grounded". They're the closest match I can remember off-hand. As for your other issue, I find it's better to try outlining things and seeing which idea sorts itself out the best. Most of my flashes of inspiration come after I've made a general outline for the story.
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Dec 14, 2012 01:19
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BigRed0427 posted:First off i'm hitting this point where I have a lot of ideas for characters and stories to write about but I'm not sure which to actually do first. A wealth of ideas is a good thing, but you need to flesh them out and see which is most promising. Keep the notes on the others.
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Dec 14, 2012 02:17
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BigRed0427 posted:First off i'm hitting this point where I have a lot of ideas for characters and stories to write about but I'm not sure which to actually do first. Just write something. Usually the best way to get a story done is by writing it. Stop thinking and sperging about writing and actually write something.
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Dec 14, 2012 20:22
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BigRed0427 posted:First off i'm hitting this point where I have a lot of ideas for characters and stories to write about but I'm not sure which to actually do first. That sounds pretty similar to how many cops feel about their work. We deal with a lot of people breaking the law and doing illegal things simply because they've hit an extremely low point. We're forced in some cases to punish those folks despite whether we personally think it's the best choice. No matter how much good we do, we're always vilified and never seem to make a difference in the big picture. I'd be happy to answer any questions or give you some more thoughts if you think it'll help your character. Feel free to PM me and we'll figure it out.
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Dec 15, 2012 18:23
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This is a bit of an opinion question, I guess. I have a story with aliens. They have some mammal-like features, like body hairs adapted for signalling. But when I wrote about them, I was careful not to use too many terms that equated to animals. There are lots of species with hackles, manes, ruffs, or other features, but I'm trying to show an alien species that doesn't quite map onto anything we have. I don't want to just create the image of space anthros. This results in a lot of clunky "she shimmered her shoulder patches" sorts of sentences. I've gotten some feedback I should just use the same language I'd use to describe animals. I'm balking hard on that. But while I don't want to use shorthand that just makes people fill in with space gorillas, I also don't want to prevent immersion. Making up words also seems like a bad idea. How would you handle it?
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Dec 16, 2012 02:34
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Rose Wreck posted:This is a bit of an opinion question, I guess. What's the point-of-view? If it's first-person, or quite close third-person and the POV character is human, then it really should be okay to refer to those things in human terms since that's how most people would rationalise those sorts of differences. Err, unless this is a human who's very used to this alien species, but doesn't have much frame of reference on Earth creatures, in which case they'd probably use the same terms as whatever these aliens use, I guess. For a more detached POV, this is trickier. Made up words can be fine, but you have to be pretty good at it, and careful about how you introduce the reader to them otherwise they might just switch off. Possibly part of the problem with sentences like 'she shimmered her shoulder patches' is that you're already anthropomorphising the creature a little bit with words like 'shoulders' - might as well go the whole way in that case. The other approach you could take is to change round the language a bit 'she shimmered her shoulder patches' becomes 'the hair on her shoulders bristled', or something similar. At least then it doesn't sound like you're dancing around using a real word by replacing it with 'shoulder patches'. Sorry for not giving you some good, specific advice. Your best bet might be to try a few different options for a particularly problematic section and see which sounds best.
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Dec 16, 2012 13:42
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That's a good point. I wound up using a hominid-ish shape because it's a useful body plan for things like running and climbing. When I was writing about alien everything-else it seemed like a good touchstone for basic movement. Unlike when I started off with radially symmetric aliens.
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Dec 16, 2012 15:56
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Martello posted:Just write something. Usually the best way to get a story done is by writing it. Stop thinking and sperging about writing and actually write something. To be brutally honest though, in the end a lot of good writing comes from inherent talent. You can practice all you want but if you don't have the ability, no matter what effort you put in, you'll just be 'alrigh't at best.
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Dec 17, 2012 07:30
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Skysteak I don't mean to pick on you but is there a reason why your last 4-5 responses to this thread are about how natural ability trumps over hard work and practice?
The Saddest Rhino fucked around with this message at 08:13 on Dec 17, 2012 |
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Dec 17, 2012 07:53
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SkySteak posted:To be brutally honest though, in the end a lot of good writing comes from inherent talent. You can practice all you want but if you don't have the ability, no matter what effort you put in, you'll just be 'alrigh't at best. Here, I'm gonna demystify talent for you. Talent, when it comes to art, is an innate ability to connect with an audience. Sitting all by yourself writing like crazy and never getting out of the house will never get you there, because you learn how to connect with people by interacting with them. There. That's the magical "talent" that makes people go, "Wow, this work really speaks to me." If you get people, you write relatable characters. If you write relatable characters, people think you have talent. So why is talent so hard to come by? Because too many writers are NERDS.
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Dec 17, 2012 08:11
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