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My memory of what went down in book 2 is kind of fuzzy, but wasn't it suggested that Denna was doing a whole lot of stuff on her own that Kvothe doesn't really understand, and there's the suggestion that he thinks he knows what's up but that he's way in over his head?
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Dec 7, 2012 21:10
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I don't hate Denna, but I hate what she does to the narrative because whenever she's around it results in things like terrible deer metaphors.
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Dec 7, 2012 21:22
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TychoCelchuuu posted:My memory of what went down in book 2 is kind of fuzzy, but wasn't it suggested that Denna was doing a whole lot of stuff on her own that Kvothe doesn't really understand, and there's the suggestion that he thinks he knows what's up but that he's way in over his head? Yeah, that's the possibility of the reveal I mentioned. That won't stop the reveal from being even more disgusting about her, of course. Also the way he talks about her in the framing story makes me think whatever is going on with her won't make her someone with an actual agency or persona that shakes loose his obsession.
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Dec 7, 2012 21:53
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TychoCelchuuu posted:My memory of what went down in book 2 is kind of fuzzy, but wasn't it suggested that Denna was doing a whole lot of stuff on her own that Kvothe doesn't really understand, and there's the suggestion that he thinks he knows what's up but that he's way in over his head? I think its pretty obvious that Denna is working for a secret organization as a spy almost from the start. It's probably Lorren and it will likely be the Amyr. She is also likely to be the lost Lackless daughter. (LAdy Lackless daughter ran away with Edema Ruh, Denna shows up in Sherven in that same period, they are described in similar ways. She's being beaten by her master (maybe for a reason?), but Kvothe does come to the realization that so does he and he still sticks around the university. It wouldn't surprise me if she's being beaten for hanging out with Kvothe or failing her missions/going off script. No I think Denna is a solid character with good motivations and flaws.
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Dec 7, 2012 22:18
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The missing Lackless is Kvothe's mother.  I have less problems with Denna than many do, but frankly she'd be much more interesting if she wasn't filtered through Kvothe's head.
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Dec 7, 2012 22:29
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neongrey posted:The missing Lackless is Kvothe's mother. Oh yeah. Why didn't I think of that? That makes more sense. My theory has its merits too though. Two biggest points I can figure out is both Lady Lackless and Denna are described as having naturally red lips and when hiding in the Mears garden Denna shivers when she sees them walking through the park. Kvothe gives her his cloak but I always figured she recognized the woman with the Mear. (or whatever your idea is better then mine) And yes, Denna would be a more interesting character if she weren't filtered through Kvothes head. But if you look at what she objectively does she is pretty cool.
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Dec 7, 2012 22:51
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Affi posted:Oh yeah. Why didn't I think of that? That makes more sense. My theory has its merits too though. Two biggest points I can figure out is both Lady Lackless and Denna are described as having naturally red lips and when hiding in the Mears garden Denna shivers when she sees them walking through the park. Kvothe gives her his cloak but I always figured she recognized the woman with the Mear. (or whatever your idea is better then mine) Kvothe's mom really is the missing Lackless. Remember Kvothe's daddy's lovely rhyme? She doesn't hate it because of the bad meter, "Blah blah blah its worth my life to make my wife not tally a lot less"? Not tally a lot less=Netalia Lackless.
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Dec 7, 2012 23:08
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Raposa posted:Kvothe's mom really is the missing Lackless. Remember Kvothe's daddy's lovely rhyme? She doesn't hate it because of the bad meter, "Blah blah blah its worth my life to make my wife not tally a lot less"? Not tally a lot less=Netalia Lackless. I didn't catch that at all. His mom also chewed him out for singing a parody about Lady Lackless.
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Dec 7, 2012 23:51
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Affi posted:I didn't catch that at all. His mom also chewed him out for singing a parody about Lady Lackless. Yeah, that's the song
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Dec 8, 2012 00:52
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Danhenge posted:Yeah, that's the song No, they are different. The rhyme Kvothe is chewed out over is just a rhyme. "Seven things has Lady Lackless Keeps them underneath her black dress ..." And so on. Around location 1732 of the Kindle version of the Name of the Wind. That's attributed to children playing. The song with the line "it's worth my life to make my wife, not tally a lot less" is written by Kvothe's father, starting at location 5657 (page 274) of Wise Man's Fear.
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Dec 8, 2012 01:16
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I didn't like the Denna portions of the books because their interaction just annoys me. It's kind of like a band that you friend really really really likes. They won't stop raving about them, but you only think they're okay and wish they'd obsess about something else.
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Dec 8, 2012 06:27
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Denna is the hooker with a heart of gold that our young protagonist is secretly in love with, but this love is blocked by his jealousy of her sleeping with other people. It might be interesting if I hadn't met this character a dozen times over in other works of fiction. In the first book she was okay, if a little bland. By the second book however her every appearance derailed what little semblance of a plot was occurring.
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Dec 9, 2012 04:23
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Affi posted:I think its pretty obvious that Denna is working for a secret organization as a spy almost from the start. It's probably Lorren and it will likely be the Amyr. She is also likely to be the lost Lackless daughter. (LAdy Lackless daughter ran away with Edema Ruh, Denna shows up in Sherven in that same period, they are described in similar ways. I'm 90% sure that we're going to find out that Denna's master is one of the Chandrian or a lacky of theirs, hence the repeated beatings and the fact that the song that the nameless master had Denna creating goes out of its way to completely disconnect Lanre with the Chandrian. We've repeatedly seen that they go out of their way to purge all solid information about themselves, especially about their true names. I'm curious as to what made you think that Denna was a spy for the Amyr though. Also Lorren is definitely be one of the Amyr, hence him being discouraging about Kvothe's research into the Chandrian, as well as his disappearing of the book that suggested the continued existence of the hidden Amyr
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Dec 9, 2012 07:49
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Sophia posted:she is an object not a person to both the narrator and the author. Even though as an inherent character she's fine. I don't think these two things can be true at the same time, and at the very least I don't think the second is true. Maybe that's the disconnect between people that like Denna and people that don't? I always got the impression that the author has a pretty solid grasp of her as a person, as far as having her own motivations, a real personality, and a life that exists outside of the bounds of the main characters observation. The only thing that's really hard to swallow is her interest in Kvothe, which is more of a protagonist problem than anything else. I really find it a stretch to think that Rothfuss could have accidentally written all of Kvothe's projection on Denna, as well as a lot of his other foibles, by accident though. Hopefully book three comes out some-loving-day! so we can finally find out if he's a true creepo, or just a former one who just knows the subject material personally with some residual immaturities, which is what I suspect. keiran_helcyan posted:Denna is the hooker with a heart of gold that our young protagonist is secretly in love with, but this love is blocked by his jealousy of her sleeping with other people. It might be interesting if I hadn't met this character a dozen times over in other works of fiction. I could be wrong about this, but I never got the impression she was sleeping with these dudes, at least not during the time period that Kvothe knows her. Fairly sure it's something she resorted to in the past, but even that's only implied. The general hooker with a heart of gold theme, I sort of agree with, but I'm holding out hope that there's more to this character that Rothfuss has spent so much time with than just a love interest.
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Dec 9, 2012 19:58
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wellwhoopdedooo posted:
It was heavily implied when Kvothe follows her and sees her save some farm girl. She tells her something about getting gifts and courted as an expensive courtesan and says something along the lines of "Even the fanciest horse is still a horse, sooner or later you're going to get ridden."
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Dec 9, 2012 23:45
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wellwhoopdedooo posted:I don't think these two things can be true at the same time, and at the very least I don't think the second is true. Maybe that's the disconnect between people that like Denna and people that don't? Why not?
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Dec 10, 2012 00:21
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Ethereal Duck posted:It was heavily implied when Kvothe follows her and sees her save some farm girl. She tells her something about getting gifts and courted as an expensive courtesan and says something along the lines of "Even the fanciest horse is still a horse, sooner or later you're going to get ridden." Yeah, that was the specific passage I was thinking of when I said that I thought it was in the past--I can't say what it is exactly, but I left that part with the strong impression that it wasn't something she was still doing, and a slight ambiguity as to whether she ever had. It may be as simple as the fact that the tone of the advice seemed to be coming from someone who had "been there, done that", and not from somebody who was still trapped in the situation. Danhenge posted:Why not? I may be assuming what he meant by "object" somewhat, which is where the "I don't think" part comes in. The implication that I take from "object" is that it's someone seen as a thing to be lusted after and possessed, defined by their relationship to another, and not an independent person with their own hopes, desires, feelings, etc. Since viewing someone that way requires a distinct lack of empathy, and writing an interesting character requires a very strong sense of empathy, the two ideas just don't seem compatible to me. If a different meaning was meant by "object" I'd be interested to hear what it was.
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Dec 10, 2012 02:51
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wellwhoopdedooo posted:I may be assuming what he meant by "object" somewhat, which is where the "I don't think" part comes in. The implication that I take from "object" is that it's someone seen as a thing to be lusted after and possessed, defined by their relationship to another, and not an independent person with their own hopes, desires, feelings, etc. For your objection to be relevant there'd have to be an agreement that Denna is an interesting character, and you're not necessarily getting that.
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Dec 10, 2012 03:22
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Denna isn't remotely close to interesting. She doesn't have any unique defining characteristics, no internal consistency, and she definitely doesn't have any kind of interesting conflicted motivations going on. She's about as plain as they come. The worst part is that she's the author's immature and creepy personification of "that one girl who secretly loved me but was too wild spirited to catch." (i.e. that girl never really liked you probably because you're a creep, she wasn't playing hard to get she just wasn't into you at all but in your fantasy narratives you can change her motives to be just what you always secretly dreamed they were) Above Our Own fucked around with this message at 03:31 on Dec 10, 2012 |
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Dec 10, 2012 03:29
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Okay, imagine this: All the Denna parts have been removed. In their place, we get more Kvothe shenanigans around the university or abroad, and maybe also a truncated romance that involved clear interest on both parties. Wouldn't that be better?
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Dec 10, 2012 03:35
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Above Our Own posted:Okay, imagine this: All the Denna parts have been removed. In their place, we get more Kvothe shenanigans around the university or abroad, and maybe also a truncated romance that involved clear interest on both parties. Wouldn't that be better? No because I have a feeling the third book won't hold together if that's the case. He's the king killer. Who's the king that he killed? Why did he kill the king? How did the things that are in the world now get in? Where's his sympathy? I'm pretty sure the answer to it all involves Denna.
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Dec 10, 2012 03:39
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I've forgotten a lot of the specifics but I think I remember that this ridiculously detailed re-read of the two books brings up a lot of stuff that makes Denna's actions sound integral to pretty much every aspect of Kvothe's search for answers about the Chandrian and the Amyr and so on, but he's too too wrapped up in his idea of who Denna is/too stupid to realize that he can order these books from Amazon.com and read them closely/too arrogant to realize what's going on. Just like he doesn't realize that his mom is Netalia Lackless.
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Dec 10, 2012 03:44
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Danhenge posted:For your objection to be relevant there'd have to be an agreement that Denna is an interesting character, and you're not necessarily getting that. Fair enough, but my point was that she can't be both interesting and simply an object to the author at the same time. Unless of course the person judging "interesting" has an equally shallow view of women. I hope that's not true of me, but I guess I'd be a poor judge if it was. Anyway, wasn't I trying to state whether she's a good character or not (at least not in the post you replied to), just that I don't see how one person can hold both opinions--she's a good character, and the author doesn't have a good understanding of the character--at the same time. Above Our Own posted:Denna isn't remotely close to interesting. She doesn't have any unique defining characteristics, no internal consistency, and she definitely doesn't have any kind of interesting conflicted motivations going on. She's about as plain as they come. I really feel like we're reading different people here, which makes sense given that the 1st person perspective necessitates at least some projection. But I always got the impression that it's less playing hard to get/wild spirited, and more fear of getting close to someone due to the nomadic life she lives. Not to get personal, but when you have to leave people you care about a lot, you start to fear losing them more than you fear being alone, which is a pretty classic conflict. I think she really likes Kvothe, but getting too close just means it's going to hurt more when you eventually get screwed over/have to leave. I don't know, maybe I'm projecting more depth on the character than is really there. I can see how she'd seem shallow, and creepily written, if I thought the author intended it the way you think he does though. Above Our Own posted:Okay, imagine this: All the Denna parts have been removed. In their place, we get more Kvothe shenanigans around the university or abroad, and maybe also a truncated romance that involved clear interest on both parties. Wouldn't that be better? Honestly, I don't think that romance with clear interest on both sides makes for very good reading, at least not without some other strong conflict, and even the "different worlds" storyline can get pretty tiresome, and cutting out that too basically leaves "damsel in distress". There's a reason that almost any romance you read about or see on TV or movies or in a play starts out with the characters rubbing each other the wrong way. I think your point is more that unrequited love is even worse to read about than simple love, and I agree that "tricking" someone into liking you is incredibly distasteful, but that comes down to our different interpretations of what's been going on. As to whether it'd be better with the stuff replaced with more adventures, I don't really know. I mean, I'm basically bored at best by romantic entanglements in books and would rather get to the good parts, but then again practically every story I like features them in some way, so maybe I do like them on a certain level. At the very least, I think they flesh out the characters' motivations, and this series in particular would seem flat without it. Other than the Chandrian thing, it's practically the only constant plot thread, and it would be even more of a series of disconnected events that I don't think I'd enjoy as much. Much like Faile's captivity in WoT was a loving slog to read through, it still added a lot of depth to the characters. If I didn't read it the way I did and thought it was all trite/creepy it certainly wouldn't have. I think a big part of being a good writer is someone who can make those necessary but maybe not as fun to read parts still engaging. He's clearly failed on that part for a lot of people, but for me, it worked.
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Dec 10, 2012 05:17
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Honestly. Denna probably likes Kvothe because he accepts that she has other poo poo to do and isn't interested in a long term relationship. At the end of the second book he is way more forward with her and she gets pissed. Is she also writing messages with Yllish knots in her hair? I think she said like "shut the gently caress up" or something at the end. Which I loved. -------------
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Dec 10, 2012 12:52
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Affi posted:Is she also writing messages with Yllish knots in her hair? I think she said like "shut the gently caress up" or something at the end. Which I loved. I thought the whole thing there was it was another form of magic he's never heard of. Like you read what's in the knot subconsciously and it affects your perception. She writes pretty or whatever and people look at her and think she's pretty.
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Dec 10, 2012 14:58
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Hughlander posted:I thought the whole thing there was it was another form of magic he's never heard of. Like you read what's in the knot subconsciously and it affects your perception. She writes pretty or whatever and people look at her and think she's pretty. I think she even asks some of Kvothe's friends if there's a kind of magic where if you write something it becomes true. I wouldn't be shocked if she was referring to the Ylish knots obliquely.
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Dec 10, 2012 23:23
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Ethereal Duck posted:It was heavily implied when Kvothe follows her and sees her save some farm girl. She tells her something about getting gifts and courted as an expensive courtesan and says something along the lines of "Even the fanciest horse is still a horse, sooner or later you're going to get ridden." I read that "unless you run the gently caress away [like I am doing constantly], and even then you're running the risk of being raped." I mean, young Kvothe's all sort of hosed when it comes to his view of her but Rothfuss is obviously angling for something a little more in depth than I think he's given credit. Particularly her reaction to Kvothe's womanizing; he's all 'but isn't this what you do?  ' And she's all 'actually, it's about the only thing I don't. Jesus wept you creep.' She likes him, but she needs him to grow the hell up, and maybe try some other time when she isn't so busy maybe kinda being in some sort of godkilling, demon hunting resistance group.
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Dec 11, 2012 05:10
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You both certainly have good points, but goddamn that topic just saps my mental energy.
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Dec 11, 2012 05:37
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the JJ posted:She likes him, but she needs him to grow the hell up, and maybe try some other time when she isn't so busy maybe kinda being in some sort of godkilling, demon hunting resistance group. Where does everyone get this from? I assumed she was working for Haliax with her references to her Lord wearing a hood and never showing his face and being a bit of a prick. Which is pretty much all descriptions of Haliax given in the book.
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Dec 11, 2012 10:48
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Antinumeric posted:Where does everyone get this from? I assumed she was working for Haliax with her references to her Lord wearing a hood and never showing his face and being a bit of a prick. Which is pretty much all descriptions of Haliax given in the book. It's possible I need to read the books again, but I don't remember her ever saying he never shows his face, just that he's really secretive. That said I don't think he's Amyr or Chandrian, I think it's that bully guy from school and Kvothe ends up killing him for the Kingkiller title.
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Dec 11, 2012 15:07
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Antinumeric posted:Where does everyone get this from? I assumed she was working for Haliax with her references to her Lord wearing a hood and never showing his face and being a bit of a prick. Which is pretty much all descriptions of Haliax given in the book. Hence all the maybe kinda sorta's. That one employer(?) that Kvothe doesn't like is certainly up to something, Skarpi's connected to the Chronicler and Bast in some sort of meta-plot, and is anti-church in someway. We know Kvothe kills an angel for Denna's sake, so there is some semi-secret group (Amyr?) doing things. So is Denna Up to Something? She knows a lot of people and travels around a lot, seems to ingratiate herself with powerful people. Maybe she's just surviving and ends up tangled in trouble, but it'd be a little coincidental if the girl the Kvothe's all  over just happened to end up working for Haliax. 'Course, it's also be drat unlikely if she just happened to be a secret agent, but you know, fantasy novel, ta'veren.
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Dec 11, 2012 20:21
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Well, why was she on his magical wagon ride in the first place? Perhaps she's been an agent all along, sent to seduce him and try to direct him away from the University. In that first meeting I believe she almost tempts him to come with her. If he really is the Lackless heir who can open the door that holds whatever is in there (potentially the door at the University), it's not impossible that the Amyr or the Chandrian know that. Perhaps the Chandrian kept him alive on purpose because they want the door open, but the Amyr have other plans. I mean, it's somewhat shown in the text that Kvothe is known to some forces before he should be. Skarpi definitely knew who he was and specifically sought him out to wake him up and tell him stories Skarpi wanted him to hear. Bredon probably did as well. Maybe Ben was an agent too, trying to get him interested in the University, and Kvothe's entire life has been orchestrated and fought over by unseen forces to cause whatever tragedy he eventually causes. That would be a lot convenient but it might also be satisfying in a way. Regardless, if Denna does have her own agenda, it's likely she's had that agenda from their very first interaction.
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Dec 11, 2012 21:05
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Raposa posted:It's possible I need to read the books again, but I don't remember her ever saying he never shows his face, just that he's really secretive. That said I don't think he's Amyr or Chandrian, I think it's that bully guy from school and Kvothe ends up killing him for the Kingkiller title. It's not Ambrose, because that makes no sense and would require Ambrose to be moving around the world a lot and wouldn't make a lick of goddamn sense as to why Ambrose would be interested in the story of Lanre and Denna already knows who Ambrose is and it wouldn't really make any sense to keep the information from Kvothe.
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Dec 12, 2012 14:07
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Sophia posted:If he really is the Lackless heir who can open the door that holds whatever is in there (potentially the door at the University), it's not impossible that the Amyr or the Chandrian know that. Perhaps the Chandrian kept him alive on purpose because they want the door open, but the Amyr have other plans. I never really associated the University door with the whole Lackless thing. I always assumed it was that mysterious box, and that it contained the name of the moon, from that story whatshername tells, the one with Jax. Seeing as beings from the Fae can cross over when the moon is not in the sky, messing with the moon could cause all sorts of havoc for the world. Such as, I dunno, Scraeling and Skin-walkers running free or something.
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Dec 12, 2012 15:55
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Calico Noose posted:It's not Ambrose, because that makes no sense and would require Ambrose to be moving around the world a lot and wouldn't make a lick of goddamn sense as to why Ambrose would be interested in the story of Lanre and Denna already knows who Ambrose is and it wouldn't really make any sense to keep the information from Kvothe. Ambrose is the king he already has moved up in line of succession in the books. Kvothe hates him, and it has been set up since the first book. Ambrose is the reason for the stupid "trial" against Kvothe because of his place in the royal hierarchy.
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Dec 12, 2012 17:45
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Fallorn posted:Ambrose is the king he already has moved up in line of succession in the books. Kvothe hates him, and it has been set up since the first book. Ambrose is the reason for the stupid "trial" against Kvothe because of his place in the royal hierarchy. I tend to agree, its been foreshadowed a few times and he wasn't exactly subtle about it either. The continual conflicts with Ambrose make more sense in that context as well considering Kvothe magically makes a fool of almost everyone else.
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Dec 12, 2012 18:51
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Ethereal Duck posted:I never really associated the University door with the whole Lackless thing. I always assumed it was that mysterious box, and that it contained the name of the moon, from that story whatshername tells, the one with Jax. Seeing as beings from the Fae can cross over when the moon is not in the sky, messing with the moon could cause all sorts of havoc for the world. Such as, I dunno, Scraeling and Skin-walkers running free or something. You could be right. I'm mostly extrapolating from the name of the third book that the door will be important. My theory has always been that Iax is trapped behind the door with the Lacklesses being responsible for guarding the key and Kvothe will free him. In that sense, maybe we're both right, that the box will lead to the door. Who knows really.
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Dec 12, 2012 19:11
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Fallorn posted:Ambrose is the king he already has moved up in line of succession in the books. Kvothe hates him, and it has been set up since the first book. Ambrose is the reason for the stupid "trial" against Kvothe because of his place in the royal hierarchy. That was poorly phrased on my part, i agree that Ambrose is probably going to be the king that Kvothe kills, i was disagreeing with Raposa's hypothesis that Ambrose is Denna's patron, that part doesn't work at all. Although it is possible that the Ambrose succession thing is a red herring, it's worth noting that Kvothes sword in legend is called Poet Killer and they've mentioned that Ambrose writes a lot of poetry. Calico Noose fucked around with this message at 04:40 on Dec 13, 2012 |
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Dec 13, 2012 04:29
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Calico Noose posted:That was poorly phrased on my part, i agree that Ambrose is probably going to be the king that Kvothe kills, i was disagreeing with Raposa's hypothesis that Ambrose is Denna's patron, that part doesn't work at all. Although it is possible that the Ambrose succession thing is a red herring, it's worth noting that Kvothes sword in legend is called Poet Killer and they've mentioned that Ambrose writes a lot of poetry. I finished reading that ridiculously in-depth Rothfuss re-read/analysis series earlier today, and one of the more outlandish theories that I really liked was that the king in question isn't Ambrose, or the Maer, but Simmon. It's not entirely out of the question, he is nobility and somewhere in the line of succession, it's just unlikely.
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Dec 13, 2012 05:02
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I am really looking forward to Kvothe totally owning Ambrose. Nerd revenge fantasy yeah ok but still.
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Dec 13, 2012 05:02
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