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Dec 14, 2012 19:49
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"Uh, sir, we do iPhone development"
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Dec 14, 2012 19:54
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Jerry SanDisky posted:Online courses can be great, but there is no better resource than Introduction to Algorithms. This is the CLRS book that people keep talking about. It is a fantastic introduction to the implementation, design, and analysis of algorithms, and its an incredibly useful reference to have around. Look for international versions if price is an issue. A book to work through may be easier for me, it's how I typically learn. I'll pick this up when I have a bit of cash to spare, cheers.
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Dec 14, 2012 21:15
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tef posted:
Why so angry?
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Dec 14, 2012 21:47
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I'm back home. Every indication suggested that I will receive an offer next week. Based on what was hinted at with rough numbers, however, the salary would be very low, even considering that it would be a first role for me. I don't know what to do, because I don't know if the range is livable without being miserable.
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Dec 15, 2012 01:27
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gucci void main posted:I'm back home. Every indication suggested that I will receive an offer next week. Based on what was hinted at with rough numbers, however, the salary would be very low, even considering that it would be a first role for me. I don't know what to do, because I don't know if the range is livable without being miserable. What was the number? You can always say "I'd love to work for you, but I can't do it for less than <reasonable number>". If they say they can't do that, you don't take the job, no harm done.
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Dec 15, 2012 01:40
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Ithaqua posted:What was the number? You can always say "I'd love to work for you, but I can't do it for less than <reasonable number>". If they say they can't do that, you don't take the job, no harm done. 45-50k. Before I left, I was told by one of the people whom I spoke with that he may try to push it a bit higher, but I wouldn't expect as much if they're starting so low. I cannot deny that it's a big opportunity which could help me in the future, but at that rate it's almost not worth it considering I can probably get a similar role to what I do now, making just as much, while still living here. Running a quick salary calculator yields about $2700/month after taxes if I'm making 50k a year. Let's assume it's not exactly correct, but it's around that ballpark. Even if I find a roommate and share an apartment at $800 a month, that leaves me with approximately $1900. I have a few hundred dollars a month in school loans which I get some minor assistance with from my parents, but even in the best case it's still $300-400 a month I have to pay. Include a phone bill, food, and metro expenses, as well as the cost to possibly return home on weekends, and I don't know if I can really do it without having literally any social life or personal comforts. The worst part of this is that when I really think about it and take into consideration how well my performance on the coding exercise and overall attitude were received, I'm being really lowballed. I understand that everyone has to start from somewhere, but at the same time, everyone deserves to be comfortable, and if you want to run a company New York, I feel you should expect to pay higher salaries to compensate. Edited for numbers. double sulk fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Dec 15, 2012 |
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Dec 15, 2012 01:58
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They're counting on you being naive because you're starting out, where you'll take any job at any salary because, well, you're naive 
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Dec 15, 2012 02:00
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Chasiubao posted:They're counting on you being naive because you're starting out, where you'll take any job at any salary because, well, you're naive This seems to be the case. I'm wondering if I should crunch some numbers, send the one guy an email and tell him that I did the math and that I have a pretty firm minimum closer to 70k or so. If it falls through, oh well.
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Dec 15, 2012 02:02
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gucci void main posted:I'm back home. Every indication suggested that I will receive an offer next week. Based on what was hinted at with rough numbers, however, the salary would be very low, even considering that it would be a first role for me. I don't know what to do, because I don't know if the range is livable without being miserable. Be confident in your ability to get a position with a number that would make you feel more comfortable even if it takes a little bit longer. I had an offer thrown out at me for my first interview out of school that was ~55k. It was my first interview and definitely my worst one. I was NOT comfortable taking that number and living in a high cost of living area (Boston) I got 2 offers 3 months later that was more in-line with what I had envisioned and in a comfortable, low-cost of living area. I know this is anecdotal, but I really think you shouldn't put yourself in a situation where you know you will be miserable when the "market" is so hot.
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Dec 15, 2012 02:03
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45-50k sounds really low for NYC. Brand name tech companies in the Seattle area start people in the 80s at least, and Seattle obviously has a lower cost of living than New York. If you do take the job, I would stay there for 6 months - 1 year or so, and then try to parlay that experience into a new job that pays much better.
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Dec 15, 2012 02:05
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Whats a good yard stick for 'Yea I can apply for x programming job without getting laughed at' if I am just now starting out with the book lernin.
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Dec 15, 2012 02:08
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gucci void main posted:This seems to be the case. I'm wondering if I should crunch some numbers, send the one guy an email and tell him that I did the math and that I have a pretty firm minimum closer to 70k or so. If it falls through, oh well. Don't do that. It's not a company's job to care how much your student loans are, or that you want to go back home on the weekend. Offer negotiation isn't a sob story.
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Dec 15, 2012 02:37
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Chasiubao posted:Don't do that. It's not a company's job to care how much your student loans are, or that you want to go back home on the weekend. Offer negotiation isn't a sob story. I wouldn't include any specifics. I just have to see what happens and think it over this weekend. Everything could still fall through, who knows.
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Dec 15, 2012 02:48
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45-50k in NYC is a joke. I think you should say you were expecting an offer closer to market value, which is nearly double their number.
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Dec 15, 2012 03:08
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nachos posted:45-50k in NYC is a joke. I think you should say you were expecting an offer closer to market value, which is nearly double their number. Even as a first/junior role? I feel like I should have done so in person and that I might have hosed up in that regard if I come back now and say that after retrospect, I expected closer to market value.
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Dec 15, 2012 03:14
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gucci void main posted:Even as a first/junior role? I feel like I should have done so in person and that I might have hosed up in that regard if I come back now and say that after retrospect, I expected closer to market value. Definitely! I don't know what you actually said in person but it shouldn't matter at all. Once they officially extend an offer, take your requisite 2-3 days to "think about it" and then outline your concerns. People change their minds all the time, especially when the offer becomes official. A good employer should understand and expect it.
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Dec 15, 2012 03:52
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gucci void main posted:I don't know what to do, because I don't know if the range is livable without being miserable. The best thing to do is to keep looking for interviews, because having more than one offer dramatically improves your ability to negotiate.
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Dec 15, 2012 04:45
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oRenj9 posted:glibc/string/strlen.c Am I reading this right and strlen will actually terminate the process if an unsigned long is wider than 8 bytes?
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Dec 15, 2012 04:53
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Yes. That should not happen on any platform glibc supports.
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Dec 15, 2012 04:58
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gucci void main posted:Even as a first/junior role? I feel like I should have done so in person and that I might have hosed up in that regard if I come back now and say that after retrospect, I expected closer to market value. I started at 68,000 in Philly. The company that first hired me out of college (which does not have extraordinarily high expectations) is now starting people at 72,000. Again, this is in Philly which has much lower cost of living then NYC. I would not accept a job in NYC at less than $80,000, and that is if I'm starting at a start up with some equity options. At an established company, I would want at least $85,000. Under $50,000 for any starting developer position is like them spitting in your face, and I know plenty of people who made more then that as an intern while in college.
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Dec 15, 2012 05:22
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gucci void main posted:Even as a first/junior role? I feel like I should have done so in person and that I might have hosed up in that regard if I come back now and say that after retrospect, I expected closer to market value. Maybe I'm a bit of an outlier because I'm already making good money even while going to school(80k truck dispatching), but if I were you I would lay it out to them directly. "If I'm going to work in NYC I need NYC money. 75k is the minimum I'm willing to accept. If this isn't in line with what you guys are willing to offer, thank you for your time." Don't let them play you because it's your first job. This is the age of glassdoor and other such sites. They have to know the median is out there and good people will actively know that median.
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Dec 15, 2012 05:26
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Ranma posted:I started at 68,000 in Philly. The company that first hired me out of college (which does not have extraordinarily high expectations) is now starting people at 72,000. Again, this is in Philly which has much lower cost of living then NYC. I would not accept a job in NYC at less than $80,000, and that is if I'm starting at a start up with some equity options. At an established company, I would want at least $85,000. Under $50,000 for any starting developer position is like them spitting in your face, and I know plenty of people who made more then that as an intern while in college. What do you personally recommend I do? I lost PMs, is it possible I can email you or something? KidDynamite posted:Maybe I'm a bit of an outlier because I'm already making good money even while going to school(80k truck dispatching), but if I were you I would lay it out to them directly. "If I'm going to work in NYC I need NYC money. 75k is the minimum I'm willing to accept. If this isn't in line with what you guys are willing to offer, thank you for your time." Don't let them play you because it's your first job. This is the age of glassdoor and other such sites. They have to know the median is out there and good people will actively know that median. I'm thinking this, but I'm wondering if I do it now before they even put an offer out, or do it afterwards. The company seems somewhat established and I know for a fact that they have at least one incredibly major client signed on. Money should not be an issue for them. As I said before, they complimented me on the fact that I did well on what was asked of me, as well as my general demeanor and the fact that I showed up early to meet with them. I'd hate to kill off an opportunity before it can happen, but the more I think about it, the more I feel like I'm being played. I know I'm not perfect, but this job is going to be dramatically more difficult and the wage should be set accordingly. Short of "they're trying to cheap out on me," I don't understand what about hiring someone explicitly as a junior developer makes me that much less worthwhile. If I was able to do what was asked, doesn't that immediately flag me as less of a risk? double sulk fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Dec 15, 2012 |
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Dec 15, 2012 05:34
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Wait until after they offer and reword that same message. Find YOUR minimum that is inline with NYC and state that since everyone is quoting different numbers. Edit: obviously that number is 70k or above KidDynamite fucked around with this message at 05:47 on Dec 15, 2012 |
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Dec 15, 2012 05:42
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How long have they been looking to hire? There are plenty of talented devs in NYC looking for jobs, there's probably a reason why they can't fill the job at 45-50k.
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Dec 15, 2012 05:51
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gucci void main posted:Short of "they're trying to cheap out on me," I don't understand what about hiring someone explicitly as a junior developer makes me that much less worthwhile. If I was able to do what was asked, doesn't that immediately flag me as less of a risk? You sound like you're taking this really personally; I wouldn't. Their offer isn't a judgment of how good a person you are (or even how valuable an employee they think you'll be), it's the minimum they think they can get you for. They're a business, so they're going to try to spend as little as possible. Also I seem to recall that you posted earlier something like you "managed to dodge the salary question", so you didn't really give them an indication of the range you were willing to accept. In any case, to agree with what everyone else said, the offer is really low (it's even a little on the low side for my area, and my rent is like $500/month). Try to negotiate for more, and don't take it if they don't make an offer you're happy with. Here's a really great article about salary negotiation: http://www.askamanager.org/2012/07/what-to-say-when-you-negotiate-salary.html. Edly fucked around with this message at 05:56 on Dec 15, 2012 |
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Dec 15, 2012 05:53
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I lived in LA, and I made about that much starting out. But then again that was 7+ years ago, there wasn't as much demand, and LA is cheaper to live in than NY. So accounting for inflation and the fact you live in NYC. You definitely need _MIN_ 70k. Also from a post I wrote earlier in this thread: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3376083&userid=38749#post405560311 Strong Sauce posted:Some articles about negotiating
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Dec 15, 2012 06:15
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Wow, I learned a lot reading thid thread. Is programming completely decoupled from the US economy? If not, how tough are these $70K+ jobs that 22 year old comp sci majors can do as entry-level? Or is it a matter of being 2-3 times better than the outsourced alternative? Isn't that better than any other job that you can get without nepotism or insider connections out of school? I'm considering a career in programming, but I'm coming from Math/Physics and am learning Python & CS theory after knowing a little Objective C and Matlab. Grad school pays like $15k-$30k for every STEM subject and it's often excruciating, is the grass really that much greener? I'm not disrespecting you here, I honestly love programming and would like to do more. It's confusing that regular US citizens are so out of the loop though, as I doubt I could convince struggling and desperate acquaintances that learning to code is the single best use of any poor & smart person's time which it apparently is!
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Dec 15, 2012 06:21
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Right now there is just a dearth of qualified people. Just read the Coding Horrors thread to see poo poo programmers have to deal with. And even those lovely programmers probably earn $70k+. Basically after the dotcom bust in 2001, no one wanted to be a CS major for like 4-5 years and that is completely affecting demand at the moment. Add to the fact that it's easy to get funding and start your own company. So a lot of the good programmers are either being paid pretty well (where it would be hard to poach them) or starting their own companies. So, In general, yes. You can easily make $70K as a 22 year old, Obviously $70k is a lot depending on where you live and the demand for jobs there. If you can actually program and you're already an US Citizen (or legal alien for most jobs) then you can probably grab these jobs assuming you have some CS theory and understanding of how to work in a group. Edit: Think about how many engineers/designers Facebook has in their company. Then think if Facebook just imploded and all the supply of people from Facebook came flooding into the market. That may be enough to satisfy half the companies looking for Engineers in San Francisco. Strong Sauce fucked around with this message at 06:46 on Dec 15, 2012 |
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Dec 15, 2012 06:43
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Cicero posted:45-50k sounds really low for NYC. Brand name tech companies in the Seattle area start people in the 80s at least, and Seattle obviously has a lower cost of living than New York. If you do take the job, I would stay there for 6 months - 1 year or so, and then try to parlay that experience into a new job that pays much better. Strong Sauce posted:So, In general, yes. You can easily make $70K as a 22 year old, Obviously $70k is a lot depending on where you live and the demand for jobs there. If you can actually program and you're already an US Citizen (or legal alien for most jobs) then you can probably grab these jobs assuming you have some CS theory and understanding of how to work in a group.
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Dec 15, 2012 08:33
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Strong Sauce posted:Edit: Think about how many engineers/designers Facebook has in their company. Then think if Facebook just imploded and all the supply of people from Facebook came flooding into the market. That may be enough to satisfy half the companies looking for Engineers in San Francisco. Facebook imploding probably couldn't fill the demands of just one other major player in SF. Amazon (Seattle) alone has more open positions for SEs than the entire greater Cincinnati area. The last I checked they had 97 pages of open positions for "software engineer". Even if 80% of Facebook's 1300 employees were SEs, I imagine that Google could find a use for 1000 people pretty quickly. genki posted:I have to ask, if you start working with a salary in the 80s, how much do people expect to be making in 5 years? And 10 years? Judging from reviews on GlassDoor, it seems that people working at the major players are earning around 130k/yr with additional stock bonuses with around 5-10 years experience.
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Dec 15, 2012 08:36
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oRenj9 posted:Facebook imploding probably couldn't fill the demands of just one other major player in SF. Amazon (Seattle) alone has more open positions for SEs than the entire greater Cincinnati area. The last I checked they had 97 pages of open positions for "software engineer". Even if 80% of Facebook's 1300 employees were SEs, I imagine that Google could find a use for 1000 people pretty quickly. Meant to say, startups who need 1-2 more engineers just to not die. There has to be at least 500 startups in SF. And I think Facebook has over 1000 SEs now, with about 2000 employees total. Not sure where I'd read that though. If you're pretty good and you're joining a big company. I've heard you can clear 200k easily (SF/Bay Area though).
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Dec 15, 2012 08:44
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Rurutia fucked around with this message at 14:03 on Apr 18, 2013 |
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Dec 15, 2012 10:25
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oRenj9 posted:Judging from reviews on GlassDoor, it seems that people working at the major players are earning around 130k/yr with additional stock bonuses with around 5-10 years experience.
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Dec 15, 2012 10:56
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genki posted:That's GlassDoor, but I'm wondering if anyone has any actual anecdotes? I mean, the number sounds reasonable to me, I'm just wondering if that's how things actually play out. I believe Google, for example, has people making well into the 250-350k range... I'd class that as unusual outside of superstars. The best developer/architect (with 20+ years of experience) I know is at around 150k. I work out of NYC with around 8 years of experience and I'm getting 92 right now. Of course, my gig is mostly working from home, so I didn't push too hard for a higher salary given that my commuting costs are nonexistent. Six figures is a career goal, not an expectation for showing up with a degree. [edit] Of course, it depends a lot on industry and the individual employer. Financial services tend to pay more but also demand more time and energy. I'm a consultant, and I rarely bill more than 40 hours a week for my paycheck. New Yorp New Yorp fucked around with this message at 11:13 on Dec 15, 2012 |
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Dec 15, 2012 11:02
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nachos posted:45-50k in NYC is a joke. I think you should say you were expecting an offer closer to market value, which is nearly double their number. Agree. That's pretty unreasonable for North Carolina (where I am), much less NYC.
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Dec 15, 2012 16:11
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genki posted:I have to ask, if you start working with a salary in the 80s, how much do people expect to be making in 5 years? And 10 years? Analytic Engine posted:Wow, I learned a lot reading thid thread. Is programming completely decoupled from the US economy? My current team in the Kindle org at Amazon has 9 devs, and I recently found out we have five new openings to fill next year, and I'm guessing teams attached to any org that's doing well are in a similar position. Cicero fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Dec 15, 2012 |
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Dec 15, 2012 16:26
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Strong Sauce posted:I lived in LA, and I made about that much starting out. But then again that was 7+ years ago, there wasn't as much demand, and LA is cheaper to live in than NY. So accounting for inflation and the fact you live in NYC. You definitely need _MIN_ 70k. I just took a few minutes and went over some math. I'm using a salary calculator (Paycheck City), but I recall it being pretty accurate in the past with a previous job. Again, assume it's not 100% accurate, but fairly ballpark. With inputs of 50-80k, I get the following bi-weekly net pay values (with their pre-tax values as well): 50k: $1,352 ($2,704/mo) // $1,929 ($3,858/mo) 60k: $1,579 ($3,158/mo) // $2,307 ($4,614/mo) 70k: $1,806 ($3,612/mo) // $2,692 ($5,384/mo) 80k: $2,033 ($4,066/mo) // $3,076 ($6,152/mo) The difference between my taxed salary at an annual rate of 80k vs 50k is $1,362 a month, and before taxes, $2,294. It was indicated that I'd be on a standard 3-month review/probationary period as with pretty much any job. Even if they did pay me 80k and I was terrible and they canned me after three months, it's an extra net loss of $6,882 compared to if I was paid 50k. Is it a lot of money? For an individual employee, I suppose, but not in the grand scheme of things. If I'm doing my job well, that money is well-spent. I'm realizing how hosed up and minimal the difference is in money when it comes to being paid fairly and allowing me to live happily/comfortably.
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Dec 15, 2012 17:25
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how!! posted:You don't have the luxury of sleeping on it. If I had that luxury, I would have solved it too. The reason I made that post was to complain about having to write the algorithm over the phone. I've thought about it more, and realized the problem is that I'm an introvert. I get really nervous when talking on the phone with people I don't now. I have a social battery that runs out very quickly. You're right, and no one disputes it--everyone in this thread had the luxury of time that you didn't. But if you're willing to take my word on it, hash tables sprung to my mind within moments. Inspiration, creativity, and improvisation are tough, especially when you're put on the spot in a real-time phone interview. The only way that fundamental data structures and algorithms will spring to mind under pressure is if you learn them beforehand. quote:Why do you want me to rewrite strlen, sort, or strcat? Whats wrong with the ones that come with the language? I don't like to re-invent the wheel just for the hell of it. If I were to write my own sort algorithm, I have no confidence it will work as well as the one built in. There could be corner cases, it could be very slow. With the built in implementations, I am confident they will work fine. I don't mean to start another code golf derail, but strlen, strcat, and (for example) bubble sort can all be written in <10 lines of C. I didn't even ask for a fast sort. Any sort would do. And yet rather than implement any of these, you hemmed and hawed and generally avoided the questions. Don't be insulted by seemingly easy questions. Here's an anecdote. About a year ago I was talking to a couple leads on another project in my organization. One of them asked me how I'd protect a variable that needed to be read and written by two threads. I was confused for two reasons: first because he had switched subject very suddenly, and second because I couldn't figure out why he'd ask me such a basic question. Then I realized the reason was obvious: he needed to verify that I could answer basic questions. That I was not a total clown. Anyway, I answered that I'd use either a mutex or a spinlock depending on the situation, and they seemed impressed. They actually turned me down later for a lack of domain knowledge (which was totally fair and probably best for everyone) but it wasn't a blow to my ego. I would have felt a whole lot worse if I had flubbed a simple question about threads. Here's an analogy. You ever watch that show "Restaurant: Impossible"? It's about this professional chef who travels the country trying to fix failing restaurants in two days. Even though these people have reached out for help and admitted they'll be out of business within a couple months, a lot of them are amazingly resistant to change. For example: Chef Robert: You need to use salt and pepper. Owner: It's on the table. Customers can use it if they want. Chef Robert: You need to clean. Owner: We haven't had any complaints. Chef Robert: Buy your food fresh instead of frozen. It's cheaper and tastes better. Owner: This is the way we've always done it. Chef Robert: Yeah, and you're failing... What I'm saying is, the thread's advice has been unanimous: learn your fundamentals in data structures, algorithms, and asymptotic analysis. Take it or leave it. Either way there's not much point continuing the conversation.
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Dec 15, 2012 17:26
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So it seems like NYC has some pretty good prospects for engineers based on this thread. I am gonna be moving there within a few months and looking for work, it looks like there is actually a decent software scene there. Though after 5 years of doing C and Perl it feels like being fluent in latin or something.
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