|
Ccs posted:It's weird, there are all these articles out there saying the second movie is better than the first (like this one: http://kotaku.com/5922239/the-second-berserk-movie-is-better-than-the-first) but from the looks of it that is definitely not true. Depends, but I'm not sure about that yet. I don't see why it can't be the case, at least comparatively speaking, especially if the reviewer understood the dialogue and didn't particularly mind (or doesn't remember enough of the manga to notice) whatever was changed or left out but is speaking based on the movie experience as a whole. He recognizes it as an improvement but hesitates to call it "good" anyway. I won't watch it until a translation is available, but I probably won't hate it since my expectations have been low to begin with. wielder fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Dec 15, 2012 |
#
?
Dec 15, 2012 17:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 17:31 |
|
|
Schubalts posted:JoJo and Hellsing Ultimate really captured their art styles perfectly, huh. See, with those two examples a lot of their distinctiveness came from being stylized. With Berserk, Miura's defining trait is freakish amounts of detail on everything. That doesn't seem nearly as easy to adapt.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2012 18:45
|
|
|
Serious Frolicking posted:See, with those two examples a lot of their distinctiveness came from being stylized. With Berserk, Miura's defining trait is freakish amounts of detail on everything. That doesn't seem nearly as easy to adapt. Well see how they do with adapting Farnese's permanent shocked stare at everything no matter her current emotion at any given time.
|
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2012 08:23
|
|
|
Popehoist posted:oh come on guys the second movie can't be THAT b I guess I'm not going to cry over them rushing through the Golden Age stuff since I've seen all that before, as long as they do a good job of the stuff afterwards.
|
|
#
?
Dec 17, 2012 09:08
|
|
|
In defense of the films, the second one in particular, They are trying to adapt a part of the story that could take up way more than 3 films. The changes to the story that they have made are not so huge that they make it incoherent and jarring. It's like anything else. To please the fans, it would have to be 1:1 like the original source, which would make it very difficult to get into for new fans. As an example, One Piece is utterly great, and a few of my friends know this but will not start watching it because there is simply so much backlog. If this is the only way those films would be made, then I am happy with that. The second film has 1 big problem in my eyes, and that is that it is basically berserk's Two Towers. In context it makes sense and works well, but as a stand along film it would be absolutely awful. In regards to the animation during the fight scenes, I felt it was a big improvement on the first, and its not bad enough that it takes you out of the scene mid way. When you are watching a fight in full (like the entire battle for Doldrey) it works well. Animating something on that scale by hand and in detail would make the film too expensive to make. I think it goes without saying that these things ALWAYS look worse as screenshots than they do in motion anyway. I recently saw both 1 & 2 at a film festival back to back, and believe me when I say that as a pair, the films work extremely well. The friends I was with had no prior exposure to berserk and came out of it raving about how much they enjoyed it. We are all eagerly awaiting the third one, which cant come soon enough for my liking.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 02:38
|
|
|
Here is what I'm hoping the films could eventually get to. Guts getting the Berserker Armor. Its a ways off after the Eclipse sadly so unless the films are doing really well I don't forsee them ever getting there. But good God would it be an intense scene.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 09:06
|
|
|
FiftySeven posted:I recently saw both 1 & 2 at a film festival back to back, and believe me when I say that as a pair, the films work extremely well. The friends I was with had no prior exposure to berserk and came out of it raving about how much they enjoyed it. We are all eagerly awaiting the third one, which cant come soon enough for my liking. Watching them back to back makes the first film worse in comparison due to the first film's 3D being animated at 24fps (to trick the eye into thinking it was 2d) while in Doldrey it is supposedly "Considerably higher" (Which I assume to mean 48-60fps because that would be easy and the 3DCG is admittedly smoother. Still, I wouldn't say they work extremely well even watched together because they barely become Berserk. In the first movie it's very apparent things are moved and the film is edited together in a hackneyed manner to make things progress at the fastest pace -- but in the second film, things are changed to remove content in place of other content, as opposed to changed for the sake of pacing. Because of this a lot of Berserk's excellent character writing is lost, and a lot of character depth is removed. 4c is definitely uncomfortable handling some of the material in the Golden Age from a content perspective, and the way they are handling that from a directorial perspective is what is problematic. That is what makes these films not particularly good, not just the awful animation or the bizarro pacing. laplace fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Jan 11, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2012 16:33
|
|
|
Ccs posted:It's weird, there are all these articles out there saying the second movie is better than the first (like this one: http://kotaku.com/5922239/the-second-berserk-movie-is-better-than-the-first) but from the looks of it that is definitely not true. I think the split is between whether it is a good adaptation (no) or a more coherent stand alone thing (probably not). FiftySeven posted:In defense of the films, the second one in particular, They are trying to adapt a part of the story that could take up way more than 3 films. The changes to the story that they have made are not so huge that they make it incoherent and jarring. It's like anything else. To please the fans, it would have to be 1:1 like the original source, which would make it very difficult to get into for new fans. This isn't a defense, this is an excuse for it being bad, which doesn't stop it from being bad. The reasoning behind making it bad isn't the issue; The issue is that it is bad (it is not good).
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2012 19:58
|
|
|
Berserk returns in the next Young Animal (#01).
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2012 13:08
|
|
|
DamnGlitch posted:This isn't a defense, this is an excuse for it being bad, which doesn't stop it from being bad. The reasoning behind making it bad isn't the issue; The issue is that it is bad (it is not good). Just out of curiosity, have you actually seen the second film or are you basing that judgement from your experiences with the first film? I can understand why people would have prejudice against these films but I do think they are worth watching if only to give a refresher on the plot. Like I said, My friends with no Berserk exposure enjoyed the film a lot, and I think that is justification enough for series like this. Its getting quite common to see these huge juggernaut series that have film adaptations to draw in the people who just don't have the time to watch a full series of stuff. laplace posted:Lots of good points.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2012 00:33
|
|
|
FiftySeven posted:For example, I was pretty surprised that they glossed over some of the more horrible abuse that happened to guts as a child, yet the Casca rape scene is apparently going to be fully left in the third film.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2012 00:55
|
|
|
Maybe I'm not entirely remembering things correctly myself, which is something of a mixed blessing in this situation, but I get the feeling they could try to include at least bit of that content (ie: his childhood trauma) when Guts and Casca end up together during the third film. Not making any bets about it though, for obvious reasons.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2012 01:13
|
|
|
wielder posted:Maybe I'm not entirely remembering things correctly myself, which is something of a mixed blessing in this situation, but I get the feeling they could try to include at least bit of that content (ie: his childhood trauma) when Guts and Casca end up together during the third film. Not making any bets about it though, for obvious reasons. I've been expecting this. It would make sense since the third movie is the longest and they're probably cutting Wyald again. They may as well use that time for more exposition and that scene is perfect for expanding upon that memory. Anyway, I just watched movie 2. Thoughts: It's not bad. I haven't sat and compared it to the manga. I know it's missing tons, perhaps half or more of the dialogue, plenty of key scenes (including character backstory) and so on. Just watching it for the content alone though, it's okay. Some parts were pretty good. There are still plenty of moments though were the animation looks indescribably cheap and makes you wonder how the staff can really take pride in producing it. It's a shame because the parts that are animated well are beautiful and clash insanely highly with the stuttering 3D scenes. I'm really not sure if a new viewer can buy into the pacing of the plot too. Like if they can identify with the characters and storyline with the rate at which it's flying past. I'm not sure if this is really made with new viewers in mind or not though.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2012 01:25
|
|
|
Wow, in the new movie they really went out of their way to suggest that Griffith would rather be loving Guts than the princess. Sadly I think the best scene in the whole thing was the trailer for the next movie. There were so many things wrong with it I don't even know where to start. The one that stuck in my mind was why did they bother with the shot that paid attention to the fingernail scars on Griffith's shoulder without the accompanying scene that showed how they got there?
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2012 16:16
|
|
Sakurazuka posted:Wow, in the new movie they really went out of their way to suggest that Griffith would rather be loving Guts than the princess. In other words, it was perfectly faithful to the manga. 
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2012 09:57
|
|
|
FiftySeven posted:I agree for the most part, they clearly had to dance around some things that happened in the show, and it was worse off for it. This is made stranger by some of the stuff they DID leave in. For example, I was pretty surprised that they glossed over some of the more horrible abuse that happened to guts as a child, yet the Casca rape scene is apparently going to be fully left in the third film. It kind of feels like they just put all the plot points in a hat and picked out ideas at random. I've said it before, but they leave out a lot of the issues Miura clearly has with homosexuality, which is actually a pretty serious running theme in Berserk. Characters leaning towards homosexual tendencies are always vilified for their actions, whether it be Gut's rapist, Gennon, or Griffith. Guts outright has issues with males being close to him, and a lot of Griffith's characterization comes from his willingness to do whatever it is he needs to achieve his dream, even exploiting Gennon's homosexuality/pedophilia -- Note that Griffith was underaged at the time they had relations. 4C's removal of this content, really specifically the scenes that villify Gennon as a character for literally raping young boys into serious mental trauma and replacing them with happy bath time with uncle Gennon is a serious, serious, SERIOUS issue -- not only because it cuts out some of the most important characterization in the series, but because it removes all of the discourse about males and male sexuality while keeping in and exaggerating the scenes that demonstrate Casca as a sex object. I mean, I'm a gay dude and even I can recognize how vilified homosexuality is in the Berserk universe -- But just because Miura has created a universe where homosexuality is always shown as a trait of "evil" characters does not mean this discourse is necessarily problematic or needs removal. Instead, the removal of this as a directorial choice shows that 4C is trying extremely hard to remove that discourse because it complicates how they are trying to portray Berserk as a series -- something that I cannot agree with when it devolves into "watch this dude cut things with a big sword while hot girl gets sexually abused". It's a tragedy when compared to the messages Miura is trying to send no matter their content and potential interpretations. laplace fucked around with this message at 12:13 on Dec 24, 2012 |
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2012 12:10
|
|
|
I made a big effort post but then I read yours again, and I feel like this last bit here is the only point worth making. It almost sounds like Berserk is being defanged.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2012 20:34
|
|
|
I'd say this next film is where we find that out for sure, though 
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2012 20:40
|
|
|
I don't know that I buy the argument Miura has problems with gay people. Certainly all the homosexual acts that have happened in this manga have been rape, but I don't think adding a positive gay character would have helped the manga or anything. And Guts' experience/wariness around men are very important to the plot (And Griffith wanted to bone Guts way before he was an evil rapist). There's just not a huge sample size of gay characters, and they're all bad because of their role in the plot. Also I think if Miura was truly homophobic he'd have included more homophobic misconceptions, like how being raped by a gay guy ~turns~ you gay. I mean, compare Berserk to anything by Orson Scott Card.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2012 20:52
|
|
|
Miura seems to have some issues, but he isn't human garbage like Card.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2012 21:27
|
|
|
Finally had the chance to watch the film myself. To absolutely nobody's surprise, it's still a dumbed-down version of Berserk, but I wouldn't say it is brainless. For instance, I did feel the second movie was better paced and plotted than the first one. What they cut out does lead to presenting a significantly less layered tale, both thematically and contextually speaking, but I don't think the narrative structure became totally senseless. It does flow relatively reasonably this time. That said, the ballroom scene in particular should have been a full minute or two shorter though. The use of 3D still does almost nothing for me, I guess it did help to portray the larger scale of the battles which make up the bulk of this entry, but I wasn't a fan of it before and even now I don't like the choices made in this respect. Yes, I agree that the flag distraction was a very uninspired and slightly ridiculous alternative. Overall, this movie trilogy continues to be far inferior to the manga's richness and attention to detail, because not every connection is made explicit and some things are merely implied, but the basics are still there in a simplified form. I don't think it's confusing to the point of turning new people off the property. laplace posted:4C's removal of this content, really specifically the scenes that villify Gennon as a character for literally raping young boys into serious mental trauma and replacing them with happy bath time with uncle Gennon is a serious, serious, SERIOUS issue -- not only because it cuts out some of the most important characterization in the series, but because it removes all of the discourse about males and male sexuality while keeping in and exaggerating the scenes that demonstrate Casca as a sex object. And yet the movie still shows Gennon coming across as a creepy old man whose homosexual lust/love for Griffith was his weakness. They still had Griffith mocking Gennon by saying that he slept with him in the past only for the sake of the Hawks and his dream. They didn't show a flashback and simplified things by removing the part about raping those young boys, which limits the extent of whatever moral implications the original work made, but the result wasn't exactly a positive portrayal of homosexuality either. The way you were describing it earlier, I was expecting the cuts to this part would be even more severe. wielder fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Dec 24, 2012 |
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2012 21:32
|
|
|
Raku posted:I don't know that I buy the argument Miura has problems with gay people. Certainly all the homosexual acts that have happened in this manga have been rape, but I don't think adding a positive gay character would have helped the manga or anything. And Guts' experience/wariness around men are very important to the plot (And Griffith wanted to bone Guts way before he was an evil rapist). There's just not a huge sample size of gay characters, and they're all bad because of their role in the plot. Also I think if Miura was truly homophobic he'd have included more homophobic misconceptions, like how being raped by a gay guy ~turns~ you gay. Oh yes, I don't think Miura has problems with gay people at all! I'm just saying the use of homosexuality as a way to characterize male sexuality is an important thing in the Berserk universe and removing that dumbs down the message. Miura clearly has a lot of things to say about it, is all. His use of "Gayness" as a masculine aggression is actually not detrimental or subversive, unlike most anime/manga where homosexuality is considered feminine. I'm actually defending Miura's characterization here. I loving love Berserk, and I love everything Miura has done with homosexuality in the universe (Problematic or not). Sorry if I came off as trying to make the case that MIURA HATES GAYS!!!!!! or anything like that, I don't think thats the case. I don't want to come off as annoying or anything and this thread doesn't need me sperging like an angry fabgoon all over it. Plus, the logistics of Griffith and Guts's relationship are very interesting and it plays into the aspect of homosexuality as and act of (masculine) aggression very well -- Griffith and Guts's platonic relationship is very mutual, and Griffith's feelings for Guts (whatever they may be) are characterized actually apart from how other motivations in the series are described, so its actually only tangentially related to Miura's discourse on homosexuality as a whole. wielder posted:And yet the movie still shows Gennon coming across as a creepy old man whose homosexual lust/love for Griffith was his weakness. They still had Griffith mocking Gennon by saying that he slept with him in the past only for the sake of the Hawks and his dream. They didn't show a flashback and simplified things by removing the part about raping those young boys, which limits the extent of whatever moral implications the original work made, but the result wasn't exactly a positive portrayal of homosexuality either. The way you were describing it earlier, I was expecting the cuts to this part would be even more severe. I think the single scene between Gennon and Griffith meant absolutely nothing in the movie because it failed to pack the punch that it had in the manga due to the removal of Griffith's motivation for this cause. It meant something because Griffith saw what Gennon did to these children, saw the kind of things he would need to sacrifice and do in order to achieve his dreams and prevent this sort of thing from happening. By removing these scenes, it just makes it seem like Griffith's ties to Gennon are supplemental and not necessary. It's a huge tonal issue and changes the message of Griffith's "I feel nothing about you either way" line, instead demoting it to "You are just a creepy ex". Instead of directionally strengthening the scene by herding content into particular places, it slims content and message to fit a different tone. The fingernail scene taking place after Griffith's night with Charlotte changes this characterization entirely: It might imply the same sort of guilt and trauma, but the placement of this and the direction with which this trauma is spearheaded is entirely different. A.S.H. posted:I made a big effort post but then I read yours again, and I feel like this last bit here is the only point worth making. It almost sounds like Berserk is being defanged. This is the core of my point. Berserk is being toned down to appeal to the lowest common denominator, it seems. laplace fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Dec 25, 2012 |
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2012 01:01
|
|
|
laplace posted:Sorry if I came off as trying to make the case that MIURA HATES GAYS!!!!!! or anything like that, I don't think thats the case. I don't want to come off as annoying or anything and this thread doesn't need me sperging like an angry fabgoon all over it. This is basically why I reread your post, because though my knee jerk reaction got me to thinking that, carefully looking at your statements lead me to believe otherwise.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2012 01:34
|
|
|
laplace posted:By removing these scenes, it just makes it seem like Griffith's ties to Gennon are supplemental and not necessary. It's a huge tonal issue and changes the message of Griffith's "I feel nothing about you either way" line, instead demoting it to "You are just a creepy ex". Instead of directionally strengthening the scene by herding content into particular places, it slims content and message to fit a different tone. The fingernail scene taking place after Griffith's night with Charlotte changes this characterization entirely: It might imply the same sort of guilt and trauma, but the placement of this and the direction with which this trauma is spearheaded is entirely different. quote:This is the core of my point. Berserk is being toned down to appeal to the lowest common denominator, it seems. Thanks for the elaboration. I can certainly see your point and mostly share your final conclusion, though not your exact thoughts on the matter, but then the larger issue -which goes way beyond the single sequence under discussion- is this: should the filmmakers absolutely refrain from presenting an alternate interpretation of the same material, given both their own personal/professional views, the actual specifications of this production and whatever their sponsors have defined as its practical purpose? Maintaining every single nuance, layered implication and real or perceived message found in the original work appears to be far beyond the scope of what Studio 4C is attempting to do here. I imagine you could fire the current director and hire someone else, such as a more experienced and talented individual, who would have made an entirely different set of creative choices. That would surely be an improvement for certain aspects of these films, but it still wouldn't guarantee that -the format, running time, release schedule and mandate remaining identical- they wouldn't tone down the content or simply provide yet another interpretation of this sequence as well as any of the others. It appears to be inevitable that their understanding/presentation of the story would always diverge, to a greater or lesser extent. Which is why I think that the flaws with this project are more conceptual and structural than anything else: Berserk simply shouldn't be made into a movie trilogy under these conditions, if the goal is to keep the detailed threads of the story as intact as possible. This isn't a great substitute for reading the manga, by any means, but at best a digest version that some people might find tolerable and others won't. wielder fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Dec 25, 2012 |
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2012 02:22
|
|
|
Well they did include Farnese and that wind-sword guy and the fight scenes are enjoyable.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2012 02:29
|
|
|
I really do think these are just a way of getting people up to speed on what happened in the Golden Age arc for people who haven't seen the first anime or read the manga, so that whatever 4C moves on to afterwards (be it the Black Swordsman stuff or the later parts of the manga) makes a reasonable amount of sense.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2012 03:52
|
|
|
wielder posted:Thanks for the elaboration. I can certainly see your point and mostly share your final conclusion, though not your exact thoughts on the matter, but then the larger issue -which goes way beyond the single sequence under discussion- is this: should the filmmakers absolutely refrain from presenting an alternate interpretation of the same material, given both their own personal/professional views, the actual specifications of this production and whatever their sponsors have defined as its practical purpose? I think you bring up a lot of really great things, mainly that the idea of a different interpretation is not necessarily wrong or bad. My complaints, I think, are a good argument as for why these films are not particularly good (specifically in comparison to the manga/tv show), but this relies on the state of it being an adaptation. The "point" of these movies as described in adverts was to "finally give the Epic of Berserk a full anime adaptation". The issue with this is they are straddling a line between adapting the story and interpreting the story, which are two different (even if important and tangential) things that are not dependent or mutual even if they can occur during the same production. I guess what I'm saying is: the 4C movies fail as the marketed "Anime realization" of Berserk. They are hindered by their attempts to stay close to certain aspects while needing to cut out others. The animation budget clearly shows this leaked into other departments too. I think that after the Golden Age 4C might surprise me. They might even surprise me with Descent, but as the films are, they seem confused and muddled for the issues discussed. (This may be one of the best discussions I've read in ADTRW, as well. Glad we all could have it!)
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2012 03:58
|
|
|
I'm going to have enough free time to catch up on the last four-ish years, but I just want to know ahead of time: are they to Elf Island yet? I wish I could be saying that in jest, but years of painful experience have taught me to never assume anything when it comes to the story progression of Berserk.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2012 05:06
|
|
|
Hahahahahahahaha, no.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2012 05:11
|
|
|
Zenzirouj posted:I'm going to have enough free time to catch up on the last four-ish years, but I just want to know ahead of time: are they to Elf Island yet? I wish I could be saying that in jest, but years of painful experience have taught me to never assume anything when it comes to the story progression of Berserk. Thanks for making realize it's been fourish years since they got on the ship. I'm going to have to be put into cryo if I want to read the end of this thing aren't I 
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2012 07:34
|
|
|
Zenzirouj posted:I'm going to have enough free time to catch up on the last four-ish years, but I just want to know ahead of time: are they to Elf Island yet? I wish I could be saying that in jest, but years of painful experience have taught me to never assume anything when it comes to the story progression of Berserk.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2012 07:37
|
|
|
On top of the travel chapters, there have already been two full arcs since they set sail. Oh, and guess what? It looks like a third arc which takes place elsewhere has begun!
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2012 08:54
|
|
|
Serious Frolicking posted:On top of the travel chapters, there have already been two full arcs since they set sail. Oh, and guess what? It looks like a third arc which takes place elsewhere has begun! Berserk is actually an allegory. Elf Island is man's quest for immortality, forever unachievable, and Griffith is cancer or something. The Eclipse is reaching adulthood, and the demons Guts fights every night are just bills and the daily trials of adulthood. Each apostle is merely a life milestone such as a first job, or taking someone to court. Eventually, death will come in the form of a panel of Griffith and then the manga just ending because Miura is dead too.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2012 10:18
|
|
|
Does it really matter if they reach the island? The story will progress one way or the other.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2012 15:24
|
|
|
RipVTide posted:Thanks for making realize it's been fourish years since they got on the ship. I'm going to have to be put into cryo if I want to read the end of this thing aren't I There is basically no chance that Berserk will finish before Miura kicks the bucket. At his funeral there will be a giant placard reading UP YOURS, LOYAL READERS.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2012 16:19
|
|
|
^ His headstone will literally be an extended middle finger.notZaar posted:Does it really matter if they reach the island? The story will progress one way or the other. 
Urdnot Fire fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Dec 25, 2012 |
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2012 16:28
|
|
|
notZaar posted:Does it really matter if they reach the island? The story will progress one way or the other. The main story is the conflict between Guts and Griffith, and nothing is going to happen on that end when they have an ocean between them.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2012 16:38
|
|
|
Nooooooo 
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2012 20:24
|
|
|
Catching up to Berserk just only leads to PAIN. You should know that by now. Shindragon fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Dec 25, 2012 |
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2012 20:31
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 17:31 |
|
|
Urdnot Fire posted:^ His headstone will literally be an extended middle finger.
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2012 01:16
|
|
