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My wife (good Goon that she is) saw the Word Bearers omnibus arrive at our doorstep and said, "This isn't Eisenhorn. What's wrong with you?" Looking back a couple of pages I am suddenly trepidatious. I love this Legion (I plan on aiming my DV Chaos minis in their direction), and its focus on faith (even if it's faith in capricious Chaos gods), and I'd heard these books emphasize that. Yet I keep seeing things about 'spiky bolter porn' and 'zero characterization'. Have I made a mistake?  If this is not the place to read about the Word Bearers, where then should I go? The Horus Heresy series? Some other books? If there is better characterization of Dark Apostles to be had (and if some Thousand Sons can show up too!) I'll happily send this thing back to Amazon. And pick up Eisenhorn. And probably Enforcer.
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Dec 18, 2012 01:14
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If you really want good fiction about the Word Bearers I'd definitely skip the omnibus and read The First Heretic, Know No Fear, and The Betrayer. All of these are based in the HH, but are written by two of BL's best authors and really give you an inside look into their corruption and personal beliefs.
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Dec 18, 2012 01:24
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BlueInkAlchemist posted:My wife (good Goon that she is) saw the Word Bearers omnibus arrive at our doorstep and said, "This isn't Eisenhorn. What's wrong with you?" First Heretic and Betrayer are both Word Bearers centric Horus Heresy books by Aaron Dembski-Bowden, who's one of the few good BL writers. Definitely put them at the top of your list. Also Know No Fear by Dan Abnett, the other good BL writer.
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Dec 18, 2012 01:24
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From HH: The First Heretic Aurelian Know No Fear Betrayer Also, your wife is great.
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Dec 18, 2012 01:26
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Impaired Casing posted:I can't tell if all of this is just because of the preexisting backstory, poor character writing, or if it is on purpose to show that the Imperium worships a guy who wasn't as great and smart as they think he is. My impression is that it's all three but the last one is what they're trying to roll with going forward. Although some of the worse writers and a lot of the fanboys definitely give the impression that they unironically and uncritically swallow the Imperial party line about the Emperor.
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Dec 18, 2012 03:19
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Impaired Casing posted:Plus, in the first books of the series, the daemons allude to the fact that the Emperor bargained with Chaos to make the primarchs, and then cut out of whatever deal he made. I have no idea if the daemon was telling the truth, but if the Emperor is as powerful and as wise as everyone thinks, one would think he'd keep a better eye on his various legions because Chaos seems to be the thing that would have a long memory. The daemons could be lying. In The First Heretic, they tailored their message to have a maximum effect on Argel Tal and Lorgar. Some of it was undoubtedly true (as we readers know about Chaos), but ADB himself said that you ought to take the word of daemons with a grain of salt.
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Dec 18, 2012 03:29
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Impaired Casing posted:I can't figure out the Emperor for the life of me in terms of his choices in the Heresy. I understand that a lot of it is based on the lore of 40k, so he has to do X because it says it in codex Y, but some of it just seems silly. It's probably just lovely writing/continuity as the older fluff and stories had the Emperor as a near perfect demi-god, betrayed by a jealous Horus but the new HH series tend to humanise everything and everyone. I think the new stories are going with the idea that the Emperor, being the pinnacle of all mankind could hope to be, is a really, really lovely father and it's his actions that spark the Heresy. Instead of explaining and teaching his sons, he publicly humiliates Magnus and Lorgar. He sends Cruze and Angron to murder and torture worlds and then makes plans to punish them when they do what he says. Compared to say Horus or Guilliman, the Emperor is horrible at understanding and managing people.
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Dec 18, 2012 03:41
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He doesn't even subtly manipulate like his sons do: he outright forces his will on lessers through psychic-powered charisma.
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Dec 18, 2012 03:49
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The Emperor was some all-powerful superman who watched humans grow as an infant species and got fed up with our poo poo and decided to lead humanity to glory. He doesn't really understand humanity though which leads a bunch of wacky misunderstandings that end up ruining everything for humanity.
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Dec 18, 2012 03:50
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To be fair, humanity had already ruined itself and the resulting Imperium really is the best chance it's had since the age of strife (when it became a plaything of chaos).
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Dec 18, 2012 03:54
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Impaired Casing posted:In regards to Khorne, I don't know if it is ADB who first presented it this way, but I love how he made that mindless bloodlust into something akin to murderous alzheimers. The reviews here have me hopeful about Betrayer. I read After Desh'ea and listened to Butcher's Nails and liked Farrer's characterization of Angron a lot better than ADB's take. It sounds like ADB managed to harmonize the two takes on the same character. Impaired Casing posted:I can't figure out the Emperor for the life of me in terms of his choices in the Heresy. I understand that a lot of it is based on the lore of 40k, so he has to do X because it says it in codex Y, but some of it just seems silly.
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Dec 18, 2012 04:58
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Fried Chicken posted:Well ADB's next Heresy book will be The Master of Mankind, and it will be about the Emperor so we should get a resolution to those questions that we will probably find satisfying. I've always thought of the big E as the universe's most arrogant being. Also, winner of the worst dad award for ten thousand years in a row. Has any writer addressed the sheer insanity of the Space Marine setup? Like how they are essentially emotionally stunted hyperviolent children who've had their sex drives surgically removed and can't interact with normal people with anything approaching understanding. I want a book from the perspective of your average Imperial citizen about how loving weird the Space Marines are. Maybe something about the quasi-Oedipal nature of their devotion to their leaders, I don't know. VanSandman fucked around with this message at 07:22 on Dec 18, 2012 |
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Dec 18, 2012 06:00
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Kegslayer posted:
Guilliman's job is to manage the empire. See that absolutely awesome section of Prospero Burns.
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Dec 18, 2012 13:46
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VanSandman posted:Has any writer addressed the sheer insanity of the Space Marine setup? Like how they are essentially emotionally stunted hyperviolent children who've had their sex drives surgically removed and can't interact with normal people with anything approaching understanding. I want a book from the perspective of your average Imperial citizen about how loving weird the Space Marines are. Maybe something about the quasi-Oedipal nature of their devotion to their leaders, I don't know. Brothers of the Snake has a story like that. There's also one from Legends of the Space Marines about an ordinary boy helping a lone Marine, stranded in his world.
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Dec 18, 2012 14:03
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lenoon posted:Guilliman's job is to manage the empire. See that absolutely awesome section of Prospero Burns. Guilliman was in Prospero Burns? I can't remember reading about him outside of Know No Fear.
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Dec 18, 2012 14:44
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Also see the first three Heresy books for the Remembrancers views on Astartes. Space marines also stink.
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Dec 18, 2012 15:07
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VanSandman posted:I've always thought of the big E as the universe's most arrogant being. Also, winner of the worst dad award for ten thousand years in a row.
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Dec 18, 2012 15:13
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There's a part where the Rune Priest is asked what the wyrds/roles of each Primarch were. He gives some examples and Guilliman is one of them. Russ is "executioner".
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Dec 18, 2012 15:16
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Schneider Heim posted:There's a part where the Rune Priest is asked what the wyrds/roles of each Primarch were. He gives some examples and Guilliman is one of them. Russ is "executioner". Yeah Russ is the enforcer. The genetically loyal attack dog the Emperor keeps on a leash. He's supposed to have very strained relationships with his brothers and distrusts most of them deeply. It's also heavily implied that the Space Wolves destroyed the two missing legions on the Emperor's orders.
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Dec 18, 2012 16:11
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Schneider Heim posted:Brothers of the Snake has a story like that. There's also one from Legends of the Space Marines about an ordinary boy helping a lone Marine, stranded in his world. Reading some of the stuff about space marines past my initial exposure to them in the computer games and the few times they show up in Abnett's stuff is really eye opening. The fact that they can eat flesh and absorb memories and information? Holy poo poo that is crazy. The gland that lets them spit poison? I am probably forgetting the even more bat crazy stuff.
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Dec 18, 2012 16:57
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No, eating brains to absorb knowledge is the craziest stuff. In regards to rarely mentioned things, however, there's the ability to enter stasis for an indeterminate ammount of time either willingly or due to taking heavy wounds, their skin darkening to block radiation, and coating themselves in insulating grease for vacuum activities.
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Dec 18, 2012 17:05
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Trast posted:Reading some of the stuff about space marines past my initial exposure to them in the computer games and the few times they show up in Abnett's stuff is really eye opening. The fact that they can eat flesh and absorb memories and information? Holy poo poo that is crazy. The gland that lets them spit poison? I am probably forgetting the even more bat crazy stuff. Space Marines are the logical end result of what happens when you use magical space biotechnology to turn a person into a weapon (magical because the process involves some things based on wrong understandings of how biology works). There are only a very few writers who even attempt to deal with the implications of that - if only because it invariably involves ordinary Imperial citizens/guardsmen pointing out that GW fans' favourite Nazi-superman fantasy are actually nazi-supermen. I remember a short story where a Guard Officer shuts down some hero worship by a trooper by pointing out that a Space Marine (and he really shouldn't know any of this) is a child born into a world of violence and trauma, taken out of that world in his early teens, thrown into more trauma, physically altered to be incredibly strong and resilient, then given a suit of armour and a gun that fires shells and told he's the best thing in the Universe and has a license to kill all his enemies. The psychological end result is exactly what you would expect. Other authors don't like writing their Space Marines like that though.
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Dec 18, 2012 17:13
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I'm having a hard time grasping your second paragraph; ordinary imperial citizens having familiarity with the astartes isn't the invariable result of trying to deal with the reality of them, but the mark of botched writing. Unless you mean that trying to deal with that issue invariably results in bad writing which is more of a hyperbolic critique of BL's general quality.
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Dec 18, 2012 17:35
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Nephilm posted:I'm having a hard time grasping your second paragraph; ordinary imperial citizens having familiarity with the astartes isn't the invariable result of trying to deal with the reality of them, but the mark of botched writing. Unless you mean that trying to deal with that issue invariably results in bad writing which is more of a hyperbolic critique of BL's general quality. That was a side issue, the main problem is that for some obvious and less obvious reasons, GW's writers don't like to write Space Marine characters as the brainwashed sociopathic trauma victims that they are because that's not actually a 'character'.
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Dec 18, 2012 17:49
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Alchenar posted:That was a side issue, the main problem is that for some obvious and less obvious reasons, GW's writers don't like to write Space Marine characters as the brainwashed sociopathic trauma victims that they are because that's not actually a 'character'. Ha! Looks like someone hasn't read Wrath of Iron. Which is great, by the way, and probably the least sympathetic portrayal of Space Marines in the BL. It has an inverted character arc wherein the protagonist gradually becomes a self-loathing murderous rear end in a top hat like the rest of his chapter. Mechafunkzilla fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Dec 18, 2012 |
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Dec 18, 2012 17:58
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^^^ God yes - those Iron Hands are real assholes. Is that the one where they "rescue" that overseer and essentially turn him into a servitor because it is some great "honor?"Alchenar posted:That was a side issue, the main problem is that for some obvious and less obvious reasons, GW's writers don't like to write Space Marine characters as the brainwashed sociopathic trauma victims that they are because that's not actually a 'character'. Sociopaths, I can agree with though. Though that isn't necessarily a bad thing - for instance, I think good doctors need to be sociopaths in some way. You have to be able to detach yourself from your work in some sense. That being said, you can't be so detached from the humanity you're protecting that you're essentially an alien, either... berzerkmonkey fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Dec 18, 2012 |
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Dec 18, 2012 18:00
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berzerkmonkey posted:Where are you getting "trauma victims" from? They are genetically enhanced and subjected to indoctrinations based on their chapter. They aren't ripped away from their lives as teenagers - it is a huge honor to join a legion. Youths compete to be a Marine and only the best (i.e "survivors" are accepted.) Trauma doesn't enter into it. These people grow up on Death Worlds. By default every moment of their existence is traumatic because that's what Death Worlds are. They then get plucked out of a life where everyone and everything is trying to kill them and given the power to destroy anything that opposes them.
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Dec 18, 2012 18:13
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Yeah, it seems fair to describe the (pre)indoctrination processes for at least a few of the myriad of chapters in existence as, "traumatizing". At least, by modern standards, for sure. Edit: I mean, you probably had to have seen some pretty F'ed up stuff to make mortal combat with a multi-dimensional sex-crab another day at the office. TheStampede fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Dec 18, 2012 |
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Dec 18, 2012 18:22
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Alchenar posted:These people grow up on Death Worlds. By default every moment of their existence is traumatic because that's what Death Worlds are. They then get plucked out of a life where everyone and everything is trying to kill them and given the power to destroy anything that opposes them.
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Dec 18, 2012 18:24
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I might have missed it but what is the general consensus on Angel Exterminatus? I am looking at picking up Betrayer based on the reviews thus far so I might as well pick up the other while I am at if it is good.
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Dec 18, 2012 18:30
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berzerkmonkey posted:I disagree - it's less trauma and more everyday life. It would be trauma to us because we can't imagine living in a situation where everything is potentially deadly, but if you grew up with it, it would become day-to-day life. I have to agree with this, take Fenris for example. It's a constant fight for the stable land that happened to rise out of the sea. Someone already living there? Well we need to live and so its us or them, kill 'em. They revere the Space Wolves as mythical heroes who sometimes show up to take the best of them to a place where they can fight wars forever. It's literally a warrior society that doesn't see war as trauma, but as the greatest pursuit a man can aspire to. Sure they're all sociopathic monsters, but they're not kidnapped children afraid of everything before they're forced to join a legion.
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Dec 18, 2012 18:40
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Demiurge4 posted:Sure they're all sociopathic monsters, but they're not kidnapped children afraid of everything before they're forced to join a legion.
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Dec 18, 2012 18:45
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berzerkmonkey posted:^^^ God yes - those Iron Hands are real assholes. Is that the one where they "rescue" that overseer and essentially turn him into a servitor because it is some great "honor?" No, Wrath of Iron is the Chris Wright book where Iron Hands butt heads with the attached guard and titan legion forces over lack of communication and seeming disregard for allied assets (ie lives). It's a very dark story on all fronts; I particularly liked the not-romance sidestory between the guardsman and manufactorum worker. Nephilm fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Dec 18, 2012 |
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Dec 18, 2012 18:45
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berzerkmonkey posted:Where are you getting "trauma victims" from? They are genetically enhanced and subjected to indoctrinations based on their chapter. They aren't ripped away from their lives as teenagers - it is a huge honor to join a legion. Youths compete to be a Marine and only the best (i.e "survivors" are accepted.) Trauma doesn't enter into it. In Space Wolf by William King, Ragnar Blackmane's induction to the Space Marines is a traumatic and harrowing experience. His village is burned to the ground, and he's put in a group of aspirants including a champion from the very clan that sacked his town. At some point he kills his closest aspirant friend because he turned into Wulfen. But despite everything, he keeps his humanity and sense of wonder at the galaxy. Not a very serious or grimdark series, but King makes Space Marines fun.
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Dec 18, 2012 18:59
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Alchenar posted:These people grow up on Death Worlds. By default every moment of their existence is traumatic because that's what Death Worlds are. They then get plucked out of a life where everyone and everything is trying to kill them and given the power to destroy anything that opposes them. Keep in mind that many of the Chapter homeworlds are actually pretty decent places to live. Best example, is of course, The Ultramarines. They live on a very nice planet and they are less horribly oppressed than other places in the Imperium.
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Dec 19, 2012 01:49
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^^^^ Blood Angels come from a planet best described as "What if Frank Herbert wrote Fallout?". It's grim. berzerkmonkey posted:^^^ God yes - those Iron Hands are real assholes. Is that the one where they "rescue" that overseer and essentially turn him into a servitor because it is some great "honor?"
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Dec 19, 2012 02:33
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They also have futuristic hypno-therapy to treat/recondition/brainwash those kids as needed.
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Dec 19, 2012 03:25
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Mechafunkzilla posted:Ha! Looks like someone hasn't read Wrath of Iron. Which is great, by the way, and probably the least sympathetic portrayal of Space Marines in the BL. It has an inverted character arc wherein the protagonist gradually becomes a self-loathing murderous rear end in a top hat like the rest of his chapter. Wrath of Iron was interesting because of how it had a short scene describing the way the Iron Hands actually have some sort of body dysmorphic disorder, with all the emotional issues and distress that can go along with that, rather than just saying "they replace their bodies with machines because GRIMDARK." That's something that I know how much it sucks, so I was really interested in seeing that developed. It was sort of a disappointment when the follow-up was "they're still irredeemable assholes anyway."
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Dec 19, 2012 03:40
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JerryLee posted:Wrath of Iron was interesting because of how it had a short scene describing the way the Iron Hands actually have some sort of body dysmorphic disorder, with all the emotional issues and distress that can go along with that, rather than just saying "they replace their bodies with machines because GRIMDARK." That's something that I know how much it sucks, so I was really interested in seeing that developed. It was sort of a disappointment when the follow-up was "they're still irredeemable assholes anyway." What else were you expecting?
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Dec 19, 2012 05:02
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I'm only a little bit into The Siege of Castellax, but it's very entertaining so far. Much, much better than Path of the Renegade, which I just finished and was a joyless slog throughout. I rather enjoyed C.L. Werner's Fantasy stuff, so it's good to see that he's still on form in 40k. He's definitely one of the best B-tier BL authors, and probably the funniest when he wants to be. His style reminds me of William King.
Mechafunkzilla fucked around with this message at 05:18 on Dec 19, 2012 |
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Dec 19, 2012 05:12
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