|
Hahaha, now I hope there really is a Lady Massé.
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 11:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 03:38 |
|
|
Fantasy Tripe posted:Completely The existence of two supposed Lord Englishes would be consistent with the chess scene fakeout. High-level Time and Space aspects would both be sufficient to traverse the Furthest Ring. Since they are Cherubs and thus share a body, it'd be reasonable to expect them to look identical as adults. There's just one problem. Both those Lord Englishes had red cheeks, and Calliope's are always green.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 11:06
|
|
theory here that probably doesn't make sense, what if the Lord English going around popping dreambubbles with the wand isn't Caliborn but somehow this doomed timeline Calliope? While the one who killed Hussie with the golden AK is alpha timeline Lord English?
|
So I'm guessing "Lord English is Caliborn all grown up" is pretty much confirmed at this point. It's still just a matter of how.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 11:07
|
|
|
Ammat The Ankh posted:Looks like that "Lady Massé" theory is gaining ground. Also, Hussie said that cherubs aren't supposed to just kill off their other half, so expect this alt Calliope to have some problems of her own.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 11:08
|
|
|
Wow, Hussie just up and laying bare the themes at the heart of Homestuck here. Literally every character has been in search of themselves, with various degrees of success.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 11:18
|
|
|
Gravitas Shortfall posted:Wow, Hussie just up and laying bare the themes at the heart of Homestuck here. Literally every character has been in search of themselves, with various degrees of success. quote:TT: I think the true purpose of this game is to see how many qualifiers we can get to precede the word "self" and still understand what we're talking about.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 11:25
|
|
|
Wait, since Caliborn's title is Lord. Wouldn't it not be "Lady Massé", but instead "Muse Massé".
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 12:49
|
|
|
KaosMachina posted:Hmm, if we take this to the literal extreme, then that version of Calliope would be a largely inactive creator to Caliborn's highly active destroyer. Maybe the Muse class is so utterly inactive that only alternate versions of themselves actually do anything. Its like, negatively passive. So passive that it accomplished things without technically doing jack poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 13:02
|
|
|
...I am suspicious of Calliope's story. Her intentions seem good, but she's been wrong about stuff before, and finding a doomed copy of herself that is completely different seems like a bad idea. I mean... Really, the only thing keeping Caliborn in check is that he's prone to taking the easy way out. If we meet up with a Calliope that was tough enough to survive a Dead Session, and ruthless enough to kill Caliborn instead of trying to coexist with him? Seems like that person would be just as bad or worst than Caliborn. I'm not suggesting alt-Calliope is actually Lord English, but she might be another obstacle instead of a friend.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 14:07
|
|
|
yknow, if an iteration of Calliope is strong enough to be a threat to an indestructible demon, perhaps she might not be content to remain in her "doomed" status. To be honest, we've always been in the dark about the causal mechanisms of doomed timelines, so this might shed light on that. And by shed light, I of course mean completely gently caress poo poo up.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 14:14
|
|
|
KaosMachina posted:Hmm, if we take this to the literal extreme, then that version of Calliope would be a largely inactive creator to Caliborn's highly active destroyer. She'll be revealed to be the ultimate inactive creator-- Andrew Hussie himself, who will come out of the closet at that point as a transgender skullmonster.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 14:17
|
|
|
Bobulus posted:...I am suspicious of Calliope's story. Her intentions seem good, but she's been wrong about stuff before, and finding a doomed copy of herself that is completely different seems like a bad idea. I mean... Really, the only thing keeping Caliborn in check is that he's prone to taking the easy way out. If we meet up with a Calliope that was tough enough to survive a Dead Session, and ruthless enough to kill Caliborn instead of trying to coexist with him? Seems like that person would be just as bad or worst than Caliborn. I know some people will disagree with me, but I feel that becoming the dominant personality through force of will (as it is pretty much explicitly stated happened with this other Calliope) rather than arranging a dream assassination counts for something; it's much easier to frame it as a struggle for self-control for one, but even if you hold that overriding and essentially destroying a personality you share a body with has exactly the same result as knife-to-guts murder, there's a lot to be said for doing things the right way. or at least differently wrong, since I guess the right way is reconciliation rather than domination, but if anything that only makes it less likely that she will have any of Caliborn's traits (Plus dominance through pacifism is a pretty strong narrative idea, even though it doesn't really work on an individual level in real life; this Calliope needn't have become like Caliborn in order to defeat him (although admittedly that is also a strong narrative idea) so long as she was absolutely immovable*) e/ *which would potentially make her an obstacle anyway if she turns out to be too rigid in her passivity. This all could go either way. Cabbit posted:She'll be revealed to be the ultimate inactive creator-- Andrew Hussie himself Surprise! The entire comic was actually written by Ryan North. Andrew was nothing but a muse the whole time. Renaissance Robot fucked around with this message at 14:29 on Dec 18, 2012 |
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 14:26
|
|
|
Bobulus posted:I'm not suggesting alt-Calliope is actually Lord English, but she might be another obstacle instead of a friend. What about Doc Scratch?
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 15:04
|
|
|
Lady Massé is gonna have cue balls for eyes, isn't she? Since seeing Calliope with empty sockets, that's felt like the natural progression. Still it feels... ominous  Edit: J.theYellow posted:What about Doc Scratch? Or that. Somehow cueballs are gonna be involved. Scale Model Giant fucked around with this message at 15:08 on Dec 18, 2012 |
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 15:06
|
|
|
Callie's supposed to have fantastic powers and all, but if there does exist a doomed timeline branch of herself that prevailed over her brother, wouldn't she be just as hard to find as alpha timeline Callie? Even the defeated Callie can create a void to hide in, so I would think if the offshoot self is, as she suggests, in hiding like herself, she would be extremely difficult to find. If Calliope can use her powers of imagination and space to hide from her brother as a ghost murdered before she could even begin the game, I would think dominate Calliope would be able to keep herself hidden from both LE and herself. In which case the wand-wielding LE might be Calliope, while the AK-wielding one would be Caliborn... ...and the twist is that dominate beta timeline Calliope/LE-monster murdered Hussie and has been writing the entirety of the comic ever since with the help of a terrified Ms. Paint.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 15:51
|
|
|
Gravitas Shortfall posted:Wow, Hussie just up and laying bare the themes at the heart of Homestuck here. Literally every character has been in search of themselves, with various degrees of success. Well, it's a coming-of-age story (which he's also said) and that's what being a teenager is about.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 16:28
|
|
|
So I found this really loving awesome thing and... Sburban Jungle (Dave's Time Loops) (There are a few branches that can sound a little weird, but overall the default settings it chose are loving perfect.) EDIT: turning on "remove sequential branches" makes it sound better in places, so I changed the URL. Color Printer fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Dec 18, 2012 |
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 16:37
|
|
|
Some other, unrelated thoughts. Jade's god tier title is "Sayonara Kansas," which probably refers to how she left her home session with wind power, but may in fact be foreshadowing being blown away by a tornado. John hasn't actually propelled her anywhere yet. Why would B2 Rose make sure Roxy's house is well-stocked with liquor? Because without something to inhibit her void aspect's tendency to cause blackouts of a different sort, Calliope and Caliborn would never have been able to discover them. Rose can see the path to victory, not necessarily the hardship it requires. Calliope chose to disguise the entrance to her hideout as a green Sburb logo door, which is the sort of platform that we would have expected to see had session B1 been successful. It is expected that this door would've been their entrance to the new universe created by their efforts, but the use of this symbol there reminds us that we don't know exactly what's supposed to happen at the end. The other side of that door was connected to a memory of the observatory in Rose's house. Why hide something in an observatory? Well, one thing a telescope can't look at is itself, so I suppose it makes symbolic sense. Calliope seems to be able to observe events unfolding, and is searching the universe for her hypothetical alternate self - which is of course what you'd use an astronomical telescope for. "Dark pocket" is synonymous with "black hole," recalling Karkat's incorrect translations of "yellow yard." It's located at the same spot on the swirl symbol thing that Caliborn's black hole was next to its sun. No light can escape from a black hole, explaining why they can't be seen there. Of course the Muse of Space can get out; I would guess that she can be anywhere she wants to, as long as she's discreet about it. How she came to be encased in amber on B1 earth in the year 4222 is beyond me, though. How could the Condesce be in that dream? Non-players don't dream the same way players do; we haven't known them to have access to the dream bubbles. Could be related to her miscellaneous powers. The fact that she appeared in the same position in that shot that Rose's mom did is interesting; recall that Dirk believes that he and Roxy were the product of her attempts at imposing a troll-style reproductive cycle on humans, making her a kind of false mother figure.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 16:55
|
|
|
Bongo Bill posted:How could the Condesce be in that dream? Non-players don't dream the same way players do; we haven't known them to have access to the dream bubbles. Could be related to her miscellaneous powers. The fact that she appeared in the same position in that shot that Rose's mom did is interesting; recall that Dirk believes that he and Roxy were the product of her attempts at imposing a troll-style reproductive cycle on humans, making her a kind of false mother figure. Derse is close enough to the Furthest Ring that maybe she's there physically. Alternatively, she's also the only guardian we've seen with filled in eyes, so maybe the normal guardian rules just don't apply to her for some reason. I've actually had this burning hunch for a while that Meenah, being the Thief of Life, is going to steal the Condesce's position/living status, and that the Condesce we see now is actually a literally grown-up Meenah. In some ways this feels a little dissatisfying (how does she reconcile her terrible acts of torture/genocide?), but there's so many things (filled-in eyes, actual dialog, and now appearing in a dream bubble) that point to something going on that sets her apart, and casting it all as "Lord English's Majyks" is even less satisfying in its vague definition.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 17:31
|
|
|
Or it's like Callie said, the dream bubble was reflecting Roxie's fear of the Batterwitch.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 17:37
|
|
|
How does she even plan to look for her alternate self? Isn't she stuck in that memory bubble? Can she or anyone pilot those things? I guess so, since Mennah was moving her ghost army around the outer ring and it sounds like LE is giving chase. But basically, in order for her to find herself, would she have to move her whole dream bubble into other bubbles and then explore those as well? You'd think LE would notice this dream bubble moving around, regardless if it appeared empty.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 18:40
|
|
|
I guess that's why she's currently talking to a Void Hero.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 18:57
|
|
|
Given that Calliope has empty eyes when dead, I assume Caliborn is going to die at some point.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 19:09
|
|
|
[quote="IUG" post="""]Usn't she stuck in that memory bubble? Can she or anyone pilot those things? I guess so, since Mennah was moving her ghost army around the outer ring and it sounds like LE is giving chase. [/quote] There was also all those ghost trolls piling in for the strife party, so who the hell knows how these things work anyway.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 19:22
|
|
|
Hey I just got a project update from the Kickstarter regarding the swag. Looks like there's still A LOT more to go, and also Homestuck has caused UPS to rent several more trucks.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 19:23
|
|
|
Bongo Bill posted:Some other, unrelated thoughts. It's a reference to Dorothy, yeah, but I imagine that's more to do with the whole ruby slippers/striped socks/witch thing she's got going on.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 19:33
|
|
|
Cabbit posted:It's a reference to Dorothy, yeah, but I imagine that's more to do with the whole ruby slippers/striped socks/witch thing she's got going on. Jade is also Toto, of course.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 19:37
|
|
|
Cabbit posted:It's a reference to Dorothy, yeah, but I imagine that's more to do with the whole ruby slippers/striped socks/witch thing she's got going on. Of course she's a Witch, but the ruby slippers were part of the ensemble long before the god tier title showed up. This naturally ensured that an Oz reference would be the appropriate witch to refer to, but why specifically the bit about leaving Kansas? Especially since it seems to come after the one that refers to exiting the session ("Growing Panes Await"). Even if it's as simple as B1 = Kansas, B2 = Oz, that implies an eventual return to Kansas, or the possibility of a "wizard" who previously made the trip.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 19:40
|
|
|
Bongo Bill posted:Of course she's a Witch, but the ruby slippers were part of the ensemble long before the god tier title showed up. This naturally ensured that an Oz reference would be the appropriate witch to refer to, but why specifically the bit about leaving Kansas? Especially since it seems to come after the one that refers to exiting the session ("Growing Panes Await"). I think it might be as simple as the fact that Kansas is a location, and locations are now Jade's remit as a Space hero. Of course, it could also just as easily be incredibly obtuse.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 19:45
|
|
|
Cat Mattress posted:I guess that's why she's currently talking to a Void Hero. Well then unless Roxy learns how to apply her power to another person, I guess she's going to have to tag along to help cloak her.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 19:54
|
|
|
Color Printer posted:So I found this really loving awesome thing and... I just want to say thank you for introducing me to Infinite Jukebox.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 20:06
|
|
|
Calliope can move around. Even if she's just limited to dreams, one can cover a great deal of distance by moving from bubble to bubble. It's unclear whether the firefly was always her; if it was, then she's got more freedom of movement than anybody, so long as she remains undetected. You know, there's something else which moves through dreams but transcends their boundaries, which is inconspicuous yet highly desired, which seems to exert a will of its own despite being quintessentially passive, which is a counterpart to an image that has an association with Lord English, etc....
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 20:09
|
|
|
Mazerunner posted:Hey I just got a project update from the Kickstarter regarding the swag. Looks like there's still A LOT more to go, and also Homestuck has caused UPS to rent several more trucks. I got a Tracking Number email from UPS, so it would seem that some Snoutpaks are starting to make their way out! Bongo Bill posted:Calliope can move around. Even if she's just limited to dreams, one can cover a great deal of distance by moving from bubble to bubble. It's unclear whether the firefly was always her; if it was, then she's got more freedom of movement than anybody, so long as she remains undetected. That ring is definitely going to have some role to play, and considering the finale is rapidly becoming more and more tied to Lord English vs Calliope, I wouldn't be surprised if it was connected to this new beta-Calliope somehow. Also, Feferi really is turning out to have been important for getting the Dream Bubbles blown, though at the same time this does make one wonder if they would have set them up even without her to make it possible to save their own skins from Lord English.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 20:25
|
|
|
RandallODim posted:Also, Feferi really is turning out to have been important for getting the Dream Bubbles blown, though at the same time this does make one wonder if they would have set them up even without her to make it possible to save their own skins from Lord English. What's really going to cook your noodle later on is, would their skins have needed saving from Lord English if they hadn't set the bubbles up?
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 20:59
|
|
|
RandallODim posted:Also, Feferi really is turning out to have been important for getting the Dream Bubbles blown, though at the same time this does make one wonder if they would have set them up even without her to make it possible to save their own skins from Lord English. Feferi's been really important in-universe since the beginning, what with being the heiress, the connection to the Horrorterrors, etc. She's just never been... I don't know, "actively important" perhaps, important in ways that we see watching the plot. Which kind of disappointed me, because I noticed the other things back before she got murdered and I was hoping she'd end up having more impact. Another reason I was glad Fefeta sprite's shown up. Not that that went anywhere yet either.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 21:36
|
|
|
RandallODim posted:Also, Feferi really is turning out to have been important for getting the Dream Bubbles blown, though at the same time this does make one wonder if they would have set them up even without her to make it possible to save their own skins from Lord English. I'd be interested in knowing the full story behind this. It's only mentioned in dialogue once if i recall correctly, and while I can't remember the page to go look it up I think feferi pretty much just said 'i had a chat with the horrorterrors and they made these bubbles for us to use, cool huh?' It's been glossed over. For all we know, after being asked by the horrorterrors to make the bubbles they just turned outsourced the job to pre-scratch calliope, aka muse massé (no idea where that name came from???) and she's the one who is really behind all this dreambubble nonsense. Kinda weird that there's going to be a fully matured calliope somewhere out there who managed to elbow caliborn out of their shared skull. I don't know if that would be a good thing or a bad thing... although I am being uncomfortably reminded of that tavros conversation where he speculated on there probably being an even bigger and scarier bad guy behind lord english who nobody is not aware of yet. As a wholly active entity, it makes sense for all the focus to be placed on lord english with none of the attention given to the passive muse of space in the background.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 21:45
|
|
|
Rooreelooo posted:muse massé (no idea where that name came from???) Massé is another type of pool shot where the cue ball is struck from above with an almost-vertical cue, giving it a topspin and noticeable curve, as opposed to English where the cue ball is struck along its horizontal axis, giving it a sidespin. As far as I know it's just a clever fan nickname for the concept of a version of Calliope who is as powerful as Caliborn, there's nothing 'official' to it, although at one point when she's talking to Roxy, Calliope does note that she likes the planet Uranus's 'topspin'. Fortis fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Dec 18, 2012 |
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 21:50
|
|
|
I'm still thinking Jack might be LE. We've heard that there are multiple incarnations of him across universes, and with SBURB (and thus Derse) necessarily existing in all universes, Jack is indeed already here.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 22:10
|
|
|
creationist believer posted:What's really going to cook your noodle later on is, would their skins have needed saving from Lord English if they hadn't set the bubbles up? Oh god it's self-fulfilling cycles all the way down.  Roland Jones posted:Feferi's been really important in-universe since the beginning, what with being the heiress, the connection to the Horrorterrors, etc. She's just never been... I don't know, "actively important" perhaps, important in ways that we see watching the plot. Which kind of disappointed me, because I noticed the other things back before she got murdered and I was hoping she'd end up having more impact. Another reason I was glad Fefeta sprite's shown up. Not that that went anywhere yet either. Yeah, it's true that in-universe she was significant, so it'd probably be more accurate to say that her major contribution of the Dream Bubbles (as much as it is hers) is gaining more and more significance to the plot, pretty much ever since beta-her saved WV. And now it looks like at least part of the ultimate climax will rely on their ability to preserve beta-selves again. Though Rooreelooo posted:that tavros conversation combined with the king-queen swap and Dreambubble LE having Calliope's wand/gun definitely lends some weight to the idea that a fully dominant Callie might not be a good thing either. Of course we've also got Caliborn and his towers and Prospitbreak Jack, so there's a lot of balls in the air right now.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 22:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 03:38 |
|
|
I don't think that Calliope's decision to look for a better version of herself is the right one. Calliope is not comfortable with herself. Caliborn loving LOVES himself. That's the difference between them. But having doubts about things is normal, growing up means you accept your doubts and move forward anyway. Not having any doubts and being a psychopath like Caliborn means you're an evil manchild. It's not a matter of looking for a "better" you to solve your problems, it's about BEING the better you. You can't argue with past you or future you via ridiculous memologs, like Karkat, or emulate others that you think are more competent, like Dave. I think Calliope is going to be forced to face off directly with LE, because that's what has never been done before, and thus, what needs to be done. She will most likely be acting in "concert" with all the other active players to bring Caliborn down, because just finding an uberCalliope to kick Caliborn's rear end is a lame final conflict anyway.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2012 22:27
|
|
