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Dumb person hypothesis: If you punch someone's chin slightly up at an angle, it could cause them to clench the jaw on their mouthguard, which is unproductive if you're trying to knock somebody out. Punching "downward" has a better angle for bringing the jaw open and back toward the neck, which you want. EDIT: Guess I was thinking about it wrong. Alastor_the_Stylish fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Dec 19, 2012 |
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Dec 19, 2012 00:41
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| # ? Jun 4, 2024 10:57 |
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Just tried the everlast gel handwraps. They didn't even last one session before they broke open. Blows huge balls, would not recommend.Alastor_the_Stylish posted:Dumb person hypothesis: If you punch someone's chin slightly up at an angle, it could cause them to clench the jaw on their mouthguard, which is unproductive if you're trying to knock somebody out. The ideal 1-2 combo is literally punching someone's chin up at an angle. The jab rocks the head back so the chin is exposed and if you land a fat cross you can knock a fresh fighter out in two punches. There are a lot of reasons for punching downwards. Most commonly it's due to fatigue, but angled slightly can avoid a guard, or wreck it for a subsequent hook or uppercut, in muay thai you can throw an elbow right afterwards if it's angled slightly down, lowering the impact point can fake a guy into lowering his guard. A lot of times you will find a high left hook after the angled down straight. But punching downward into the jaw can turn a K.O. hit into nothing, especially if your opponent has good form. If you tuck your jaw to your chest, no matter what angle they hit you at, the worst they can do is break your nose, and probably you won't ever get k.o.'d. That's why it's the default fight stance for boxers. Put the crown of your head forward and try to use that to absorb hits.
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Dec 19, 2012 03:59
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Guilty posted:Just tried the everlast gel handwraps. They didn't even last one session before they broke open. Blows huge balls, would not recommend. Seriously??? I tried them on and didn't feel any wrist support so I took em off and never tried them so glad I didn't.
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Dec 19, 2012 04:03
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KidDynamite posted:Seriously??? I tried them on and didn't feel any wrist support so I took em off and never tried them so glad I didn't. took about half an hour before the pouch burst and was spewing little gel balls all over the inside of my glove
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Dec 19, 2012 04:12
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Guilty posted:took about half an hour before the pouch burst and was spewing little gel balls all over the inside of my glove Stuff like that is what put me off of them. I've seen a lot of guys get them because they look cool and save time but end up with a gooey McDonald's playpen on their hands.
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Dec 19, 2012 04:24
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The only reason to roll downward I can think of is to either punch the body or your confusing the beginning of a slip with a continuation of the punch.
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Dec 19, 2012 05:20
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awkward_turtle posted:The only reason to roll downward I can think of is to either punch the body or your confusing the beginning of a slip with a continuation of the punch. I think its down to bad or fatigued technique
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Dec 19, 2012 06:20
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Xguard86 posted:experienced strikers: Why do guys throw straight rights that drop down at an angle when they miss. I see it a lot and I can't tell if its fatigue because it kind of looks intentional. I know what you mean. It's lazyness/sloppy technique. Instead of dropping down, they should pull the punch back earlier. Instead, their arm looks like a steam train. Not everyone has good/perfect technique on even the basic stuff
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Dec 19, 2012 06:22
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Syphilis Fish posted:I know what you mean. It's lazyness/sloppy technique. Instead of dropping down, they should pull the punch back earlier. Instead, their arm looks like a steam train. Like those linkages on the side of a steam train's wheels? Xguard, I think some guys visualize themselves doing Dempsey's falling step punch with the cross. They are trying to sink a bit and throw the punch down with some of their weight behind it. It's easy to do when you're tired compared to swinging your hips and shoulder forward. One of my former coaches mentioned a wave punch. A really tight overhand that you throw if you slip to the guy's outside. The punch goes up over what remains of their guard, which is already not facing you, and then down to the temple.
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Dec 19, 2012 08:22
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straight punches with a downward trajectory are lovely arm punches resulting from fatigue and wave punch sounds like check hook's retarded cousin
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Dec 19, 2012 09:42
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Straight punches with a downward trajectory are perfectly good punches to use that can add a bit of power from the drop in weight as you throw them. Using them on someone's chin is the stupid part. Hitting at the torso, especially if the guy is stepping or leaning back, is a good thing. It leaves you somewhat more vulnerable since your arm is more out of position, so it's a risk.
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Dec 19, 2012 13:19
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kimbo305 posted:Like those linkages on the side of a steam train's wheels? Yes. You must've seen people do it  It is fatigue and just general lack of refined technique because not everyone is perfect all the time.
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Dec 19, 2012 15:01
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kimbo305 posted:Like those linkages on the side of a steam train's wheels? I could hardly sleep, so much was I thinking about how this "downwards straight" looks, but that description nails it. Yeah, it's being tired if you know how to punch, lazy if you just don't care, and bad technique if you don't know better. I never tell people to punch like that, but sure as hell do it myself when it's the 12th round of the evening.
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Dec 19, 2012 15:50
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ya the linkage of a train wheel is a good description. Makes sense, I guess its just guys getting tired.
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Dec 19, 2012 16:23
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I don't know if it makes sense for a non-striker, but snapping your back straight down the pipe you punched it through is hard work in the end. You have to be fast about it too, so it's a pulling motion. When you throw hundreds of strikes with intent to hurt, you get tired and start saving energy. 90% of people seem to react to this by doing the "steam train wheel" motion in which they can still punch in a straight line but conserve some energy by saving on the return. This of course leaves room for the other fighter to counter over that hand, which is why, like, having a huge gass tank is so important. I'm just sayin', you can throw pretty hard even when seriousluy exhausted, but your defense suffers immensely. Sound like it makes sense?
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Dec 19, 2012 17:18
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Ligur posted:I don't know if it makes sense for a non-striker, but snapping your back straight down the pipe you punched it through is hard work in the end. You have to be fast about it too, so it's a pulling motion. When you throw hundreds of strikes with intent to hurt, you get tired and start saving energy. There's a big difference between dropping your arm on a return and intentionally punching at a downwards angle.
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Dec 19, 2012 20:07
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Obdicut posted:There's a big difference between dropping your arm on a return and intentionally punching at a downwards angle. That's exactly what all the fatigue theorists fail to take into consideration. A downward aimed punch is usually a well-performed overhead strike. It's just that a lot of people throw lovely overheads which are telegraphed to hell and that's what people think an overhead is supposed to look like. People also confuse the first part of a good hook with a straight many times. It's just after the hook is fully performed do they realize it's a hook.
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Dec 19, 2012 20:18
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Guilty posted:That's exactly what all the fatigue theorists fail to take into consideration. A downward aimed punch is usually a well-performed overhead strike. It's just that a lot of people throw lovely overheads which are telegraphed to hell and that's what people think an overhead is supposed to look like. What's confusing me about this is that I thought everyone got taught to throw punches while bobbing and weaving, both going down and coming up. Normally that's a hook, but obviously sometimes you'll want it to be a straight. That's a punch on a downwards trajectory, and can be a great one.
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Dec 19, 2012 20:23
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Obdicut posted:What's confusing me about this is that I thought everyone got taught to throw punches while bobbing and weaving, both going down and coming up. Normally that's a hook, but obviously sometimes you'll want it to be a straight. That's a punch on a downwards trajectory, and can be a great one. Some posters are MMA or primarily grapplers commenting on striking which is about as useful as me commenting on grappling edit: MMA fighters focused on grappling. clarified, because I don't want to imply that MMA teaches inadequate striking Guilty fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Dec 19, 2012 |
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Dec 19, 2012 20:26
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Guilty posted:Some posters are MMA or primarily grapplers commenting on striking which is about as useful as me commenting on grappling Huh. There's also a huge difference if it's a gloved or ungloved sport. If you're bare-handed, you're going to be punching downwards a lot more, since you can't strike the head in anything close to the same way. And screw Snatch for its totally mythical representation of bare-knuckled boxing. Obdicut fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Dec 20, 2012 |
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Dec 19, 2012 20:50
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Guilty posted:That's exactly what all the fatigue theorists fail to take into consideration. A downward aimed punch is usually a well-performed overhead strike. It's just that a lot of people throw lovely overheads which are telegraphed to hell and that's what people think an overhead is supposed to look like. overhead strikes arc to an extent and whoever brought the downward punches up was specifically talking about straight punches, which shouldn't be aiming to the ground unless it's short guy vs tall guy
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Dec 19, 2012 21:52
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Obdicut posted:And screw Snatch  Paul Pot posted:overhead strikes arc to an extent and whoever brought the downward punches up was specifically talking about straight punches, which shouldn't be aiming to the ground unless it's short guy vs tall guy The whole thing probably comes from the person throwing the straight punch making a dip or something and their fist following that trajectory.
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Dec 19, 2012 23:23
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Paul Pot posted:overhead strikes arc to an extent and whoever brought the downward punches up was specifically talking about straight punches, which shouldn't be aiming to the ground unless it's short guy vs tall guy Except you 'should', if, for example, they're leaning back. Even if we take out all the times when you punch downwards because you're moving downwards, there's still that one. And I don't get how punching on a downwards trajectory and dropping your arm on a return are even related, honestly.
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Dec 20, 2012 00:09
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Punching downward with a slightly angled fist can also pierce guard. If my opponent is turtling hard, I will usually start with a left uppercut angled heavily sideways to dig into the guard and follow with a right overhead to completely open them up. A straight usually doesn't work because it requires a sort of twist on the angle of the glove to wedge it between their gloves. A right uppercut I don't like because the angle of approach is too similar to the left uppercut
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Dec 20, 2012 03:01
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-I don't think Xguard was asking about the overhead that angles down. He was specifically asking about the straight punch. Please read more carefully before you start commenting on people's striking skills/knowledge. (Also realize this text medium is the worst kind of way to show each other how we do moves. Words are inadequate.) I also like the uppercut to either break their guard, or pop their chin up followed by an overhand right. Yes that one angles downwards. Because it comes from up high.
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Dec 20, 2012 04:30
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Guilty posted:Punching downward with a slightly angled fist can also pierce guard. If my opponent is turtling hard, I will usually start with a left uppercut angled heavily sideways to dig into the guard and follow with a right overhead to completely open them up. A straight usually doesn't work because it requires a sort of twist on the angle of the glove to wedge it between their gloves. A right uppercut I don't like because the angle of approach is too similar to the left uppercut Right upper will also get your countered to hell and back. I.E. Amir Khan vs Danny Garcia. Can we discuss something an back hand uppercut to counter the straight of an opposite handed fighter. Lennox Lewis mentioned it would be something Zab Judah would want to do to counter Floyd Mayweather's right in their fight and I came to the conclusion that it wouldn't work. Then Roy Nelson goes and Knocks out Matt Mittrione with a right upper counter to Mittrione's left. Kind of threw the whole thing off. I think it's the smaller gloves. Thoughts on why this would or would not work in boxing?
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Dec 20, 2012 04:38
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Syphilis Fish posted:-I don't think Xguard was asking about the overhead that angles down. He was specifically asking about the straight punch. Please read more carefully before you start commenting on people's striking skills/knowledge. (Also realize this text medium is the worst kind of way to show each other how we do moves. Words are inadequate.) I'm not talking about an overhand that angles down. I'm talking about a straight punch that angles down, which you're throwing either because A) You're fighting bare-knuckles and punching the head has really limited possibilities. B) You're fighting gloved, and he swayed back to dodge a punch without stepping back. C) You're bobbing down or weaving and you see the opportunity as you go. The last one could be called not a downward angled punch, but the vector is still the same.
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Dec 20, 2012 04:56
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D) It's really an overhand angled downwards but you can't tell because a good overhand angled downwards is pretty indistinguishable from a straight angled downwards. You can also do an overhand motion to the stomach which also pierces guard since it penetrates through the elbow. This is less common, as it is less useful. Fatigue doesn't even make sense because a fatigued fighter will drop his hands before he throws his punch, or slouch off on the bring back KidDynamite posted:Can we discuss something an back hand uppercut to counter the straight of an opposite handed fighter. Lennox Lewis mentioned it would be something Zab Judah would want to do to counter Floyd Mayweather's right in their fight and I came to the conclusion that it wouldn't work. Then Roy Nelson goes and Knocks out Matt Mittrione with a right upper counter to Mittrione's left. Kind of threw the whole thing off. I think it's the smaller gloves. Thoughts on why this would or would not work in boxing? I also had a lot of problems learning this move, and I would say that I still don't have it. My problem is that muay thai is too stiff and rigid for such a technical maneuver. I think it's too idealistic and too technical to be of any practical use, but if you can land it, it's a devastating blow. My fear is situating the offensive straight between my fist and my face, something I learned never to do. I much more prefer a body shot in my fights, since the slip is so similar Guilty fucked around with this message at 05:53 on Dec 20, 2012 |
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Dec 20, 2012 05:49
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Several of our fighters have straps from various Muay Thai sanctioning bodies, and I was digging around and there are like more Muay Thai sanctioning bodies than Boxing. Does anyone have a handle on which ones are considered the most "legit?"KidDynamite posted:Can we discuss something an back hand uppercut to counter the straight of an opposite handed fighter. Lennox Lewis mentioned it would be something Zab Judah would want to do to counter Floyd Mayweather's right in their fight and I came to the conclusion that it wouldn't work. Then Roy Nelson goes and Knocks out Matt Mittrione with a right upper counter to Mittrione's left. Kind of threw the whole thing off. I think it's the smaller gloves. Thoughts on why this would or would not work in boxing? Don't ever count on MMA striking for anything.
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Dec 20, 2012 07:19
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Syphilis Fish posted:(Also realize this text medium is the worst kind of way to show each other how we do moves. Words are inadequate.) If it were easier to draw pictures and paste them, I would. You're right -- it's a very visual medium. I loved how Chavez Sr. was showing the angles of attack to his son when gameplanning againg Sergio Martinez. KidDynamite posted:Can we discuss something an back hand uppercut to counter the straight of an opposite handed fighter. Do you slip to the outside or inside? If I can read my opponent's cross that well, which is easier when we're mirrored, then I feel so much safer slipping to the inside of the cross and throwing lead uppercut. I have been fooled and walked into their lead hook. But slipping to the outside of the cross and having the posture to throw the rear upper seems more work and less of a sure thing. e: Guilty posted:My fear is situating the offensive straight between my fist and my face, something I learned never to do. I much more prefer a body shot in my fights, since the slip is so similar kimbo305 fucked around with this message at 07:26 on Dec 20, 2012 |
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Dec 20, 2012 07:20
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Obdicut posted:I'm not talking about an overhand that angles down. I'm talking about a straight punch that angles down, which you're throwing either because let's throw more straights at a downward angle. they're like regular straights, except they leave you wide open for a counter...so exciting! you're always better off changing levels or throwing a different punch, which is why you typically only see this stuff from gassy (mma) fighters throwing arm punches. kimbo305 posted:But slipping to the outside of the cross and having the posture to throw the rear upper seems more work and less of a sure thing. doing that vs a mirrored fighter is suicidal. i wouldn't count on a roy nelson punch validating a thing lennox said because a) lennox spent most of his time at hbo spewing gibberish and b) matt mitrione is bad.
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Dec 20, 2012 14:52
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Paul Pot posted:let's throw more straights at a downward angle. they're like regular straights, except they leave you wide open for a counter...so exciting! you're always better off changing levels or throwing a different punch, which is why you typically only see this stuff from gassy (mma) fighters throwing arm punches. No, you're not always better off changing levels. As I said, it leaves you wider open, so it's a risk, but changing levels also has a risk too. Hell, throwing a straight leaves you more vulnerable from an underneath angle than punching downwards would. And again, for ungloved styles, it's quite common, partially because the counterpunching to the face and head is less of an issue. I really don't get this. Obviously they're not something you want to throw constantly, but they're sometimes situationally appropriate. Why is that hard to deal with?
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Dec 20, 2012 15:49
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more strikechat: http://www.tgdaily.com/general-sciences-features/68212-human-hands-designed-to-throw-punches my counterpoint is: Why is it so easy to break your hand hitting someone in the head? If the human hand has a significant role in striking, you'd think there would be fewer tiny bones and more robust structures.
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Dec 20, 2012 18:07
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Obdicut posted:I really don't get this. Obviously they're not something you want to throw constantly, but they're sometimes situationally appropriate. Why is that hard to deal with? there are a lot of unconventional punches that fall into this category. they're uncommon for a reason, albeit occasionally useful. what's hard to deal with is how you and especially guilty were going on about how downward angled straight punches aren't a result of fatigue, but a very useful advanced technique us plebs just can't understand. a few posts later we have guilty rambling on about how overhands and hooks can look similar to straight punches and you explaining bareknuckle boxing. that's all very interesting, but sometimes fatigued fighters just reach with their punches and that's that.
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Dec 20, 2012 18:16
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Xguard86 posted:more strikechat: my counterpoint is that a 90lbs chimp will wrestle the poo poo out of anyone involved in writing that article
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Dec 20, 2012 18:17
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Paul Pot posted:what's hard to deal with is how you and especially guilty were going on about how downward angled straight punches aren't a result of fatigue, but a very useful advanced technique us plebs just can't understand. a few posts later we have guilty rambling on about how overhands and hooks can look similar to straight punches and you explaining bareknuckle boxing. It's hard to deal with for you because you probably think a hook starts way out past the shoulder and an overhead starts high and outside. A fatigued fighter will not do a downward angled punch. He's going to drop his guard and throw and then drop on the bring back. It's like lobbing a ball when you're tired. the ball is still going up.
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Dec 20, 2012 18:24
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Xguard86 posted:more strikechat: It's bullshit backformation evolution. The human hand isn't totally incompatible with punching, but it's sure as poo poo not very good at it. Equally good evolutionary explanations would be that our hand evolved to grasp smaller things than chimps do-- instead of branches, sticks and stones. Etc. And yeah, they're really overlooking that the magnification of force in a punch works two ways.
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Dec 20, 2012 19:17
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Paul Pot posted:there are a lot of unconventional punches that fall into this category. they're uncommon for a reason, albeit occasionally useful. I'm sorry, I'm kind of lost. A lot of what people were describing-- the train-linkage motion-- seems to me like dropping the elbow on the return of the punch, and doesn't seem related to a downwards angle. That seems very separate from a punch that goes at a downwards angle. And sure, punches at a downward angle might come from fatigue, just like your hands drop in general because of fatigue, but again mostly what you see is the arm dropping more on the return than on the forward punch. What I was objecting to was the categorization of downward punches as always a sign of fatigue, and the conflation of dropping the elbow with downward angle, and that people seem to be overlooking that not every sport has people wearing gloves.
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Dec 20, 2012 19:23
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Obdicut posted:It's bullshit backformation evolution. The human hand isn't totally incompatible with punching, but it's sure as poo poo not very good at it. The human hand evolved into a refined tool both able to carefully manipulate very small objects, and to hold other, less delicate equipement which you can use to smash predators in the face. You don't need a fist like a rhino horn when you can wield a club instead, and apparently small item manipulation which enables you to wield and make weaponry was much more successfull than making the human hand an equivalent of horn!!11 Now we have nukes! Suck that up, biological evolution. Also I still think the steam-cycle motion when punching straights isn't just a show of great technique. Until we can see an example in motion nobody even KNOWS what was originally meant. I was saying cycling your fists from your jaw to a straight punch and arching them downwards, then back to your jaw is usually just tired or bad form. Not saying that you can't use an overhand punch (counter punching with a slightly elevated right cross is a favourite of mine) which angles slightly towards gravity is bad/terrible/cannot happen. Guilty posted:It's hard to deal with for you because you probably think a hook starts way out past the shoulder and an overhead starts high and outside. Come on, I don't think anyone with more than a basic course of striking thinks that way. For real here. Ligur fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Dec 20, 2012 |
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Dec 20, 2012 20:43
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| # ? Jun 4, 2024 10:57 |
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sorry to start this big debate with no video. I will google around and get an example you guys. EDIT: Okay found an example. I cant find the more obvious one i saw before, I think it was a random kickboxing match or something. 1:38 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOjrfL3Hu_8 1:55 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOjrfL3Hu_8 Xguard86 fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Dec 20, 2012 |
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Dec 20, 2012 21:13
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