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Absurd Alhazred posted:In Israel, where I grew up? Israel qualifies as a dystopia, if perhaps a rather unique one.
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Dec 19, 2012 20:16
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Orange Devil posted:Israel qualifies as a dystopia, if perhaps a rather unique one. I'm not saying that this is an ideal solution or anything, and again, obviously the best situation would be to get all these assault weapons out of the market and increase scrutiny of people applying for any gun license, but until that happens, what are you to do? So far the gun bans people are talking about would not work retroactively, so they'll basically be useless, like the last ban. Why would you reject a proposal that seems, on the surface, to be reasonable and could help prevent this kind of situation in the future, while providing employment to some incoming veterans (or, of course, anyone else who would apply for this job)? I just don't see it as being on the level of crazy as "arm all school teachers".
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Dec 19, 2012 20:23
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Absurd Alhazred posted:but until that happens, what are you to do? Nothing; because adding armed guards just creates a false sense of security, while also creating an illusion of danger. These guards could watch over schools for decades and never need to lift a finger. You're just inflicting fear of nearly non-existent danger where there's no need. And in the rare cases where they occur, the people carrying these out are generally looking to die anyways, so the guards are not going to be much of a deterrent. This isn't the same as security guards by the way; the guys that patrol a lot of high schools to keep kids from fighting each other. We're all talking about people like the guy in the image: body armor, assault rifle, etc; right?
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Dec 19, 2012 20:41
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Sarion posted:Nothing; because adding armed guards just creates a false sense of security, while also creating an illusion of danger. These guards could watch over schools for decades and never need to lift a finger. You're just inflicting fear of nearly non-existent danger where there's no need. And in the rare cases where they occur, the people carrying these out are generally looking to die anyways, so the guards are not going to be much of a deterrent. I'm not. Frankly, I think it's not very charitable to assume that the meme generator was saying that, either. Look, this might come from growing up in a very different environment, but back in Israel you would have a guard at the entrance and they would look through your bag if it were big enough; same goes for malls, train stations, etc. It might just be security theater, but - again - compared to "arm all teachers" this is at most a misguided idea of security, rather than actual craziness. I think it's important to respond accordingly.
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Dec 19, 2012 20:46
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I'm not. Frankly, I think it's not very charitable to assume that the meme generator was saying that, either. Well, lots of schools already have basic security guards, some even have metal detectors and search bags if the school has a history of violence within the student body. So it's hard to imagine that the meme is suggesting we implement things that lots of schools already have; especially when they use the picture they did. If you're just talking about basic security guards, that's not a big deal; but like I said a lot of schools and nearly all Universities already have them. And this year has seen an exceptionally high number of incidents: 7 total, only 2 at schools. One was a University that almost certainly already has security personnel. The last one at a school before this year was in 2008, also at a University. That's across a country with a population 40x that of Israel. It just isn't that big of a problem that we need to start putting armed guards in every school across the country. Honestly, looking at where these kinds of shootings have taken place, businesses should be more concerned than schools.
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Dec 19, 2012 21:10
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Sarion posted:Well, lots of schools already have basic security guards, some even have metal detectors and search bags if the school has a history of violence within the student body. So it's hard to imagine that the meme is suggesting we implement things that lots of schools already have; especially when they use the picture they did. If you're just talking about basic security guards, that's not a big deal; but like I said a lot of schools and nearly all Universities already have them. I see your point.
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Dec 19, 2012 21:17
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Sarion posted:Nothing; because adding armed guards just creates a false sense of security, while also creating an illusion of danger. These guards could watch over schools for decades and never need to lift a finger. You're just inflicting fear of nearly non-existent danger where there's no need. And in the rare cases where they occur, the people carrying these out are generally looking to die anyways, so the guards are not going to be much of a deterrent. It's not security theater. When I was in school in the 90s and moved to a Washington DC school we had to have cops. The reason was simple, the kids there were bringing guns to school and they were shooting each other on school grounds. The schools also had rapes, assaults, and rampant drug dealing. It was hell. The cops changed ALL of that. People didn't pull that because there was a police station in the the school and the cops were everywhere. And the criminal elements that existed in those areas kept clear as well, because again, cops all over the place. Now, none of this stopped people from doing this stuff off school grounds, which is what happened. But that's the point of stuff like this. The mere fact that there are armed cops there means people will choose another place to do it. The point of cops in school is not to completely stop kids from ending up shot, it's to make sure parents know their kids at least won't be shot at school.
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Dec 19, 2012 21:19
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Ashcans posted:I kind of wish there was a war on Christmas. This year all the stores skipped right over Thansgiving and started doing Christmas stuff immediately after Halloween. If someone doesn't mobilize to resist the relentless advance, next year we'll start the jingles right after Labor Day.
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Dec 19, 2012 21:29
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Sarion posted:So Facebook has given us a lot of gun-chat lately; and this is not likely to end anytime soon. Really it just comes across as angry, and reading it over is a bit disheartening. This person is upset about very real issues like increasing retirement age, but they don't know where to direct their anger. It just flies off in all directions: zero ambition losers, politicians, healthcare, etc. They're frustrated and angry all the more because their grasp on the mechanisms at work is tenuous so they're lashing out at all these things that, while maybe not directly related, appear to be problems (that sounds condescending as all hell but that's the emotion it gives off to me upon reading it).
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Dec 19, 2012 21:29
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Sarion posted:This isn't the same as security guards by the way; the guys that patrol a lot of high schools to keep kids from fighting each other. This is already insane to me. Schools don't need guards.
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Dec 19, 2012 21:35
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Orange Devil posted:This is already insane to me. Schools don't need guards. We had a cop assigned to my high school and I didn't grow up in a high crime area. Why is it so insane to have one around?
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Dec 19, 2012 21:37
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SilentD posted:The point of cops in school is not to completely stop kids from ending up shot, it's to make sure parents know their kids at least won't be shot at school. And gun control is to stop kids from ending up shot, school or public park or movie theater or wherever My high school had a "guard" (I don't know if he was even armed. I guess probably) and a metal detector. Not everyone had to go through the metal detector, it was "random" based on a teacher standing in the door way telling people to go through. I never, in 4 years, was picked to go through it once. If you weren't a student, or if you came in late, you had to go through. They searched your bag too. Seemed ok to me. Middle and elementary school we had nothing. Maybe a guard? But I don't remember seeing one even.
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Dec 19, 2012 21:41
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Armyman25 posted:We had a cop assigned to my high school and I didn't grow up in a high crime area. Why is it so insane to have one around? Because if it's not a high-crime area what is the cop supposed to accomplish? Let's be realistic - a gunman attacking a school is still going to have ample time to get in, reach a classroom and kill people before a cop is alerted and gets to the room in question.
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Dec 19, 2012 21:42
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Armyman25 posted:We had a cop assigned to my high school and I didn't grow up in a high crime area. Why is it so insane to have one around? Cus schools aren't prisons. I don't know it's difficult to express exactly, it's just wrong on a fundamental level. The idea that cops or security guards in schools is normal is just unbelievably foreign and, frankly, stupid. It sure as gently caress is a symptom of a broken society. I've known about (some) American schools having metal detectors and so on, so I'm not surprised that it exists, but I am surprised that apparently the milder form of this is seen as normal and acceptable by Americans, including on this board. I mean, it may be necessary due to socio-economic circumstances, but I'd like to think we can all at least agree that it is hosed up.
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Dec 19, 2012 21:42
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The reality is most people, and possibly Americans moreso, are big loving babies who can't deal with the realities of life. You walk out there door every morning, and there's a thousand ways you or your loved ones could bite it. School shootings are horrific, but the reality is there's no feasible way to ensure it never happens, even in countries with stricter weapon controls than the US. But people don't want to hear that. So instead we get metal detectors and banning bookbags and security checkpoints and strip searches.
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Dec 19, 2012 21:48
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I grew up in the suburbs of Detroit, and while we had a police officer on site he was armed with mace and handcuffs only; so it wasn't like he would have been much good if someone barged in wearing body armor and toting an AR. I never really considered it to be too draconian, but I also grew up in a family of gun fetishists and some LEOs; making my views on guns and gun control are a bit more on the conservative side than most here.
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Dec 19, 2012 21:57
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Orange Devil posted:Cus schools aren't prisons. I don't know it's difficult to express exactly, it's just wrong on a fundamental level. The idea that cops or security guards in schools is normal is just unbelievably foreign and, frankly, stupid. It sure as gently caress is a symptom of a broken society. I've known about (some) American schools having metal detectors and so on, so I'm not surprised that it exists, but I am surprised that apparently the milder form of this is seen as normal and acceptable by Americans, including on this board. I mean, it may be necessary due to socio-economic circumstances, but I'd like to think we can all at least agree that it is hosed up. It depends on where you go to school. High school in rich land, yeah we had two security guards in their late 50's who road around on a golf cart and were mostly there to stop people from smoking in the parking lot. High School in Washington DC, drat straight we had cops because the students were dealing drugs, raping girls, fighting, and shooting each other on the school grounds. It's not the city stepped in, it was the parents who stepped in and demanded this. It's not abnormal, we tend to increase police presence in problem areas. The mere sight of a cop or knowledge that their is a cop in an area tends to drive down crime. Furthermore having a regular cop there, one that people can get to know and talk to, is more effective than having random ones show up afterwards. People get to have a relationship with the cop and develop a bond. They feel far more comfortable going to them with problems than they would if they didn't see them every day. It's not a bad thing at all. The cops hung out and mostly did... nothing. But you saw them everyday and if you had an issue you could talk to them. About anything too. A lot of the crap they dealt with was kids who had really hosed up home issues and never felt they could talk to the cops (often their parents told them not to). But after dealing with the same cop every day for a year and realizing he was on your side, they'd bring up problems that were often pretty loving crazy and the cops would handle it. It's not like "cops in schools" means Judge Dread is walking down the halls shooting kids in the head for blowing up toilets with cherry bombs.
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Dec 19, 2012 22:08
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Orange Devil posted:Cus schools aren't prisons. I don't know it's difficult to express exactly, it's just wrong on a fundamental level. The idea that cops or security guards in schools is normal is just unbelievably foreign and, frankly, stupid. It sure as gently caress is a symptom of a broken society. I've known about (some) American schools having metal detectors and so on, so I'm not surprised that it exists, but I am surprised that apparently the milder form of this is seen as normal and acceptable by Americans, including on this board. I mean, it may be necessary due to socio-economic circumstances, but I'd like to think we can all at least agree that it is hosed up. There is an old saying that "hope isn't a course of action." Throwing up your hands and saying nothing can be done isn't much of a response. If something happens once it's an aberration, if it keeps happening it makes sense to come up with a response to it. Police officers patrol our cities and towns and always present at large gatherings of people, why not in the schools? It's not like becoming a security guard or law enforcement officer is some kind of magic. They're normal people with training.
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Dec 19, 2012 22:11
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Armyman25 posted:We had a cop assigned to my high school and I didn't grow up in a high crime area. Why is it so insane to have one around? Metal detectors, cops and bag searches at schools is just really loving weird and an unhealthy environment for kids to get accustomed to.
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Dec 19, 2012 22:22
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In many (most) communities the high school is going to be the most densely populated public building in the locality. They would be foolish to not have a cop there. Now, whether or not they are armed is another topic. But I don't see the problem with having police in a public building of 2000+ people.
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Dec 19, 2012 22:24
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Armyman25 posted:There is an old saying that "hope isn't a course of action." Throwing up your hands and saying nothing can be done isn't much of a response. If something happens once it's an aberration, if it keeps happening it makes sense to come up with a response to it. Well you could seriously deal with the reasons people go on shootings. That seems like a fair counterplan.
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Dec 19, 2012 22:24
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CharlestheHammer posted:Well you could seriously deal with the reasons people go on shootings. That seems like a fair counterplan. It's not an either/or situation.
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Dec 19, 2012 22:25
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Armyman25 posted:It's not an either/or situation. You know I hate this about America but it kind of is. We are forever given to throwing out little solutions to the most obvious symptoms and calling it solved.
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Dec 19, 2012 22:39
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Armyman25 posted:There is an old saying that "hope isn't a course of action." Throwing up your hands and saying nothing can be done isn't much of a response. If something happens once it's an aberration, if it keeps happening it makes sense to come up with a response to it. I guess it must be magic that security guards or cops are necessary in schools in the US yet not in the Netherlands. euphronius posted:In many (most) communities the high school is going to be the most densely populated public building in the locality. They would be foolish to not have a cop there. Now, whether or not they are armed is another topic. But I don't see the problem with having police in a public building of 2000+ people. I guess entire countries are foolish then. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Dec 19, 2012 |
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Dec 19, 2012 22:48
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I don't think having an armed security guard at a school is crazy - and many veterans would have a head start in being ready to do this kind of job. I don't think it's a good idea for most schools, and it's not a very effective answer to the mass murder situations we're addressing (I think it's probably better thought of as a grudgingly accepted deterrent in a school with routine violence problems)... but there's at least a case to be made. I think we need some truly nutty crap to cleanse the palate here. I'd contribute, but all my e-mailing relations are stuck in "horrible joke" and "fascinating facts (that mostly aren't true)" forwarding mode.
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Dec 19, 2012 22:53
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I was just talking about America! I have no idea if LEOs would be proper in schools in other nations.
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Dec 19, 2012 22:56
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euphronius posted:I was just talking about America! I have no idea if LEOs would be proper in schools in other nations. High schools are probably the most densely populated public buildings locally in other countries as well. Why is it fine to have cops in US ones but not in others?
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Dec 19, 2012 23:08
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Armyman25 posted:It's not an either/or situation. Orange Devil posted:I guess it must be magic that security guards or cops are necessary in schools in the US yet not in the Netherlands.
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Dec 19, 2012 23:36
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Absurd Alhazred posted:The Netherlands doesn't have the same socioeconomic issues as the US, for many complicated reasons. Yes I believe I literally said that.
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Dec 20, 2012 00:14
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Orange Devil posted:Yes I believe I literally said that. Anyway, "content". A facebook friend posts this blood splatter specimen  I pointed out that the issue of population density is related to how dense it is within the besieged territory (Paris isn't under siege, etc), we'll see how that goes.
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Dec 20, 2012 00:24
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Absurd Alhazred posted:So it would be nice if you stopped constantly feigning amazement that the solutions here are different. I'm sorry a late-industrialized half-third-world country isn't as nice and fluffy as a rich old-school postcolonial Northern European state. You could also point out that every non Gaza strip circle is a city. Funny thing, cities and towns tend to have higher population densities than the area they are in. For apples-to-apples comparison: Gaza city, ~10,000 people/sqkm France, ~120 people/sqkm
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Dec 20, 2012 01:02
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Here's something I ended typing up in response to one "Post Armed Guards at Every School" comment threads I ended up involved with. These are some rough numbers, but I thought that goons might find it useful for arguing with their stupid Facebook friends: Alright, I'm coming up with 138,925 public, private, and post-secondary schools in the United States. Assuming three guards to cover the full school day (buses start arriving around 6:30, you'll need at least two guards there during the day so that their is coverage during lunch breaks, bathroom breaks, etc., at least one guard during basketball and football games and other post-school activities), at the median security guard salary of $31,000 annually, plus the cost of benefits bringing the average cost per guard up to around $35,000, you're looking at $14,587,125,000 annually for security guards in each school. Given that the median cost for a child's health insurance is around $940 a year, you could insure every one of the 7 million uninsured children in the United States twice for this amount of money. This would prevent 850 child deaths a year, compared with the around ~50 child deaths due to school shootings annually. Given that it's children you're worried about and not your guns, I trust you'll support a universal healthcare program for every child under the age of 18? It will cost less than half the cost of hiring security guards for every school and save around 9 times more lives. Citations: http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=84 http://www.indeed.com/salary/Armed-Security-Officer.html http://www.cnpp.usda.gov/Publications/CRC/crc2011.pdf http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/hlthins/data/incpovhlth/2011/highlights.html http://healthland.time.com/2009/10/29/lack-of-insurance-factors-into-childrens-deaths/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States#2010s
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Dec 20, 2012 01:29
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CheesyDog posted:Here's something I ended typing up in response to one "Post Armed Guards at Every School" comment threads I ended up involved with. These are some rough numbers, but I thought that goons might find it useful for arguing with their stupid Facebook friends: I love it, and I'll be using this as a response to anyone who brings it up to me. Thanks.
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Dec 20, 2012 01:51
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CheesyDog posted:Here's something I ended typing up in response to one "Post Armed Guards at Every School" comment threads I ended up involved with. These are some rough numbers, but I thought that goons might find it useful for arguing with their stupid Facebook friends: Edit: nm. Fuck You And Diebold fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Dec 20, 2012 |
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Dec 20, 2012 03:50
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Anyway, "content". A facebook friend posts this blood splatter specimen Also point out that by that chart Gaza is denser than Washington, DC (3866/km2). gently caress You And Diebold posted:Is the cost of insuring all the children twice that of the security guards or half that? Seems to switch in your comment. Great work though! He was saying for the price you could insure children twice over, which is half the cost if you only insure each child once.
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Dec 20, 2012 03:59
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Edminster posted:He was saying for the price you could insure children twice over, which is half the cost if you only insure each child once.  reread it twice and I still read it wrong, bah.
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Dec 20, 2012 04:02
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E: Forgot to mention, I originally saw someone make this same point in the comments section on an MSNBC article. To me, a good argument for not having a bunch of armed teachers/guards in schools is the 1997 North Hollywood shootout. This was just two guys, out on the open street, and they managed to hold the cops at bay for a decent length of time before they were taken down (with a lot of cops and civilians injured, but thankfully no deaths other than that of the two perps). Think about it: two guys managed to hold off trained, dedicated police officers, out in the open. Does anyone seriously think a bunch of schoolteachers and/or rent-a-cops are gonna fare any better, in a school where these guys have plenty of places to barricade themselves, and with a bunch of terrified kids caught in the middle? And those guys were just robbing a bank. What if they had decided to kill as many people as they could, before either offing themselves or committing suicide-by-cop? Sydney Bottocks fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Dec 20, 2012 |
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Dec 20, 2012 04:42
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gently caress You And Diebold posted:
It's a little trickily worded. It might be better to say "pay their insurance two times over" or "you could insure every child for only half that amount."
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Dec 20, 2012 06:14
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Got this one forwarded to me last night, I don't even know where to begin. http://news.yahoo.com/know-stop-school-shootings-003203357.html Ann Coulter posted:WE KNOW HOW TO STOP SCHOOL SHOOTINGS Edit: Found a pretty good takedown of Lott's work in a MoJo repost, http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2003/10/double-barreled-double-standards I also provided him a link to another recent MoJo article on the fact that concealed carry doesn't really help stop crime, http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/armed-civilians-do-not-stop-mass-shootings NatasDog fucked around with this message at 14:46 on Dec 20, 2012 |
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Dec 20, 2012 14:14
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Sydney Bottocks posted:E: Forgot to mention, I originally saw someone make this same point in the comments section on an MSNBC article. It's like a real life version of that scene in Heat.
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