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So I was watching the best of Monday NItro DVD set and got to the triple cage match. During that Scott Steiner got a hold of boltcutters and someone on commentary said "What is more dangerous than Scott Steiner with a pair of boltcutters?!?!" and then Borash, who was also on commentary said " a microphone". Did this type of burial happen a lot with late era WCW?
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Dec 26, 2012 18:01
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Especially with the cruiserweights, yes. Frequently the commentators would just straight-up ignore the midcard matches to talk about the main eventers.
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Dec 26, 2012 18:03
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Sotar posted:So I was watching the best of Monday NItro DVD set and got to the triple cage match. During that Scott Steiner got a hold of boltcutters and someone on commentary said "What is more dangerous than Scott Steiner with a pair of boltcutters?!?!" and then Borash, who was also on commentary said " a microphone". Did this type of burial happen a lot with late era WCW? How is that a burial? Scott Steiner was dangerous with a mic! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC09wIT9Flo&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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Dec 26, 2012 18:14
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VogeGandire posted:Especially with the cruiserweights, yes. Seriously. Count the average number of matches from a three-hour Nitro and compare it to what we have now.
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Dec 28, 2012 09:48
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Hogan's heel turn? Pft. That'll never happen. edit: I remember seeing those matches, by the way, with Luger and Sting. It took them a while, but eventually Sting would be the one to do the selling (Which is saying something, considering it is sting) and they would get marginally better. algebra testes fucked around with this message at 12:43 on Dec 28, 2012 |
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Dec 28, 2012 12:41
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LividLiquid posted:Honestly, I prefer that to what we have and I don't consider it a burial. Rather than have a half-hour segment that sets up the main-event, often they'd just announce the main event at the start of the show and then take the time they'd use for boring yak-yak and put on a loving awesome match with lower-card and midcard guys and have the announcers talk about what's going on. Sure, Juventud and Psychosis were probably not elevated all that much by having a match the announcers ignored, but even worse is them not having a match at all because HHH has to talk in the ring for forty minutes. Yeah, and at least Schiavone ignoring them was better than when he did pay attention, and bury the gently caress out of them. Give me endless La Parka/Psychosis/Rey Jr/Eddie WCW matches.
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Dec 28, 2012 12:46
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A couple of interesting quotes:quote:What appears to be the situation with Austin is that he was scheduled for a meeting on 10/10 with Vince McMahon. He's also got talks scheduled with All Japan. If he works out a deal there, the odds are great he'll work here and be world champion and pushed as the star of the promotion. If not, it's inevitable just from a money standpoint and the fact the WWF badly needs heels who can work and young stars and right now there isn't a long list of people who can fill that bill that he'll end up with WWF. I can't seem to understand Dave's sentence structure. I think he's implying that All Japan is the bigger promotion, and if he gets a job there he'll get a job in the US, but even if he doesn't get a job jobbing to Misawa he'll get a job in the WWF because the WWF badly needs heels. I think. Unless he is saying that he'd sign with AJPW and get pushed at a top level Gajin level ie: Stan Hansen quote:Steve Austin and Cactus Jack both did killer interviews on the past weekend's television. Austin basically talked about being held back in WCW and how all the promotions have been calling him but he decided to go to ECW because Tod Gordon must have taken out another mortgage on his house to pay him. Austin talked about how he was fired in WCW from a phone call by Eric Bischoff's secretary and contrasted it to the way Dean Malenko and Eddy Guerrero left ECW. He still ran down ECW saying it was a bunch of violent crap. The only problem with all this is that it appears likely Austin is going to wind up with the WWF as he has a second meeting scheduled this week so aside from a few great interviews, not much in the long run is going to materialize from this. How long was he out? Like two months? It really seemed like WCW was overpaying him, he got injured and fired and WWF needed talent and signed him. It's been turned into a "Lol WCW" moment, when it was really just one of those things that just turned out that way I guess.
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Dec 28, 2012 13:07
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Yeah, WCW really just didn't have anything for Austin, and they weren't to know how big he'd become. Same with Foley. It wasn't malice on WCW's end, it was just "Creative has nothing for you". Just two midcard guys who thought they could do better if they tried somewhere else. How right they were.
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Dec 28, 2012 13:19
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VogeGandire posted:Yeah, WCW really just didn't have anything for Austin, and they weren't to know how big he'd become. Same with Foley. It wasn't malice on WCW's end, it was just "Creative has nothing for you". It only became emblamatic years later when two of the biggest draws in the business were unceremoniously fired due to a guy who by 1999 was dying in the ratings and killing the promotion, but as time told, it wasn't Hogan that was killing WCW. It was creative stagnation, a poisonous backstage environment, and a heap of overconfidence caused by several fluke successes. The same thing would later happen to WWE in 2001 and wrestling would never recover. It's pretty sad.
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Dec 28, 2012 13:40
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Sotar posted:So I was watching the best of Monday NItro DVD set and got to the triple cage match. During that Scott Steiner got a hold of boltcutters and someone on commentary said "What is more dangerous than Scott Steiner with a pair of boltcutters?!?!" and then Borash, who was also on commentary said " a microphone". Did this type of burial happen a lot with late era WCW? Scott Steiner opens his mouth and lawyers worldwide suddenly start having nosebleeds.
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Dec 28, 2012 17:36
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LordPants posted:I can't seem to understand Dave's sentence structure. I think he's implying that All Japan is the bigger promotion, and if he gets a job there he'll get a job in the US, but even if he doesn't get a job jobbing to Misawa he'll get a job in the WWF because the WWF badly needs heels. Dave was saying that if Austin got a regular touring gig with All Japan that he was also going to work for ECW (Heyman was sharing a lot of guys with the big groups in Japan and Mexico around this time), and that Heyman was going to build ECW around Austin. At the same time, WWF was going to offer Austin enough money for Austin to go to WWF, which because WWF was demanding exclusivity by this point would have precluded Austin from continuing to work for ECW. Dave is implying though not outright saying that Austin preferred working for All Japan over working for Vince, which sounds insane in 2012, but in 1995 All Japan was a healthier promotion with an easier schedule. And Austin didn't really fit into the bad cartoon New Generation style that WWF was pushing at the time. So basically the choice was working AJPW and ECW or working WWF. He chose the latter, obviously.
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Dec 28, 2012 18:49
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jeffersonlives posted:Dave is implying though not outright saying that Austin preferred working for All Japan over working for Vince, which sounds insane in 2012, but in 1995 All Japan was a healthier promotion with an easier schedule. And Austin didn't really fit into the bad cartoon New Generation style that WWF was pushing at the time. It was actually a huge gamble for Austin if you think about it. He just got de-pushed in WCW because Hogan brought all of his cartoony friends who couldn't work as hard as Austin from the WWF. Austin is going to have pure freedom in ECW to do whatever he wants and Heyman wanted to build the whole company around him. He's also going to get an All Japan paycheque and be a top gaijin for them, which for Austin would likely be work in the tag division. He would have probably had Johnny Ace's spot. WWF at the time was looking to be in trouble and Austin was signing before they brought in guaranteed contracts to compete with WCW. However, I think Austin saw guys like Hart and Michaels on top and knew that he'd be a shoe in to work with them. I guess Kevin Nash of all people was pushing for Vince to sign him (along with Ross and others). Common sense was Austin going with the All Japan/ECW deal but fate has nothing to do with common sense.
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Dec 28, 2012 20:15
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It's really fun to speculate on "What If". How the Monday Night Wars would've turned out if Austin had worked for All-Japan/ECW instead of WWF. I still believe WWF would have won. The battle would have just been drawn out a little longer. The Attitude Era would have still occurred, just with the WWF pushing Ken Shamrock in the place of Austin for most 1997, followed by Rock and Foley later. Shamrock would've gotten the big WM14 push instead of Austin. Mainstream media goes nuts over the Shamrock/Mike Tyson teased confrontation to build the hype. Shawn still gets injured in the casket match (the timing of that injury seems to be fated), thus all of the pieces post-WM14 mostly fall into the same place. WCW would've had more ground since Goldberg would have still exploded. If anything Goldberg would probably have been MORE over, partly because of the lack of comparison to the Stone Cold character (who would have never existed), and partly because Ken Shamrock just wouldn't be able to match his natural charisma and presence. Ultimately WCW's mismanagement would have still sunk the ship. The ride would've just lasted longer. As for Austin, I wouldn't have seen him sticking around in ECW for terribly long. As was mentioned, he would've gotten the Johnny Ace spot in Japan and booking in Japan until his knees gave out. Some may speculate that no Owendriver would've lengthened his career about 5 more years, but I think working in All-Japan during the 90's would've been just as bad in the long run for his neck--possibly even worse. Although it's hilarious to speculate on what would have happened had Austin stayed in ECW long enough to join the InVasion (buried by HHH and Taker for not knowing how to work WWF style, sent to job to Test in the mid-card, released after about a year). Or if like Johnny Ace, he was recruited by WWF to take over Jim Ross' position (despised by Stephanie and Kevin Dunn for much the same reasons as Jim Ross was, quits after about 6 months in frustration). So in the short run, the Attitude Era would've been crappier, but the last 10 years might have actually been better due to no Johnny Ace in WWE (assuming Austin wouldn't be replaced by someone just as bad as Johnny).
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Dec 29, 2012 07:55
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VogeGandire posted:Yeah, WCW really just didn't have anything for Austin, and they weren't to know how big he'd become. Same with Foley. It wasn't malice on WCW's end, it was just "Creative has nothing for you". They didn't have anything for Austin because they let Hogan's buddies come in and run wild. They didn't have anything for him because they didn't bother to write anything for him, then after he got injured they saw a chance tog get out. Austin was widely regarded as a sure-fire main eventer. Not what he became, but everyone saw him as an upper card heel except Eric Bischoff and WCW's booking team post Hogan. If you can't come up with something for the biggest star in the history of wrestling it is a legendary gently caress up on your part. The AWA with Hogan at least has excuses, putting the belt on Hogan would sour their relationship with All Japan and they knew he was going to be gone soon whether he got the belt or not. WCW and Austin is sheer stupidity.
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Dec 29, 2012 08:54
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MassRayPer posted:They didn't have anything for Austin because they let Hogan's buddies come in and run wild. They didn't have anything for him because they didn't bother to write anything for him, then after he got injured they saw a chance tog get out. Austin was widely regarded as a sure-fire main eventer. Not what he became, but everyone saw him as an upper card heel except Eric Bischoff and WCW's booking team post Hogan. Didn't Flair say that he was grooming him to take his place but then Hogan come in and destroyed everything, or is that Flair just talking bullshit?
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Dec 29, 2012 08:56
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Shiki Dan posted:It's really fun to speculate on "What If". I can almost guarantee the mainstream media would not have cared. Also, business would not have been nearly as hot at the time (for WWF) if Stone Cold hadn't existed, so I don't see everything falling into place after WM14 like it did. Austin was the reason that stuff happened, you can't expect Shamrock to fill in and everything just skyrocket like it did with him.
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Dec 29, 2012 09:07
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bobkatt013 posted:Didn't Flair say that he was grooming him to take his place but then Hogan come in and destroyed everything, or is that Flair just talking bullshit? No, that's absolutely true, Austin was rather clearly being groomed to move into main events in early 1994. Austin was one of those guys like Rock and Orton that was pegged as a future world champion from his first few weeks in the business, he was not a diamond in the rough type like Foley in the least.
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Dec 29, 2012 09:22
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nasboat posted:I can almost guarantee the mainstream media would not have cared. Also, business would not have been nearly as hot at the time (for WWF) if Stone Cold hadn't existed, so I don't see everything falling into place after WM14 like it did. Austin was the reason that stuff happened, you can't expect Shamrock to fill in and everything just skyrocket like it did with him. Surely putting the hottest half decade in the business on Ken Shamrock's shoulders would have worked out just fine.
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Dec 29, 2012 12:54
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cucka posted:Surely putting the hottest half decade in the business on Ken Shamrock's shoulders would have worked out just fine. Shamrock/Mr. McMahon would have been just as good. We all would have been glued to our tv screens wondering what Ken was going to do this week. Ankle lock? Screaming as he snapped? Another ankle lock? More screaming?
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Dec 29, 2012 17:18
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I like this alternate universe where kids on playgrounds are trying to ankle lock each other because Ken Shamrock is WWF World Champ. Really, Rock would have become the face of the company and that's that. WCW would not have been so desperate to get Russo and maybe Bret would have never been forced to WCW because Vince could not afford losing him.
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Dec 29, 2012 19:10
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Yeah itd probably look largely the same with even more DX/Foley/Rock stuff in place of the Austin stuff. Austin probably would've ended up in WWE eventually as well.
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Dec 29, 2012 20:44
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flashy_mcflash posted:Yeah itd probably look largely the same with even more DX/Foley/Rock stuff in place of the Austin stuff. Austin probably would've ended up in WWE eventually as well. Would it be the same? I don't agree there. Austin is really loving important to the WWF timeline. I think the WWF would have still wrapped in Rock's image eventually but 1998 would not have been a turning point year for the company. Rock would have not been ready yet, HHH would not have been ready yet, etc. I think without Austin, it would have taken the WWF a bit longer to win the ratings war and maybe WCW would have survived longer. The point about Goldberg is a good one. WCW would have had the most popular wrestler in the world in 1998 and not WWF. 1999 wouldn't have been a better year for the WWF but WCW would have won the ratings war. 600,000 people switching to see Mick Foley win the WWF World Title might have still been a ratings win for WCW. Again, I don't think WCW would have been so desperate to bring in Russo. Hogan and Nash would have still ruined WCW storylines but it wouldn't have turned people away as much because there's no Stone Cold phenomenon. This is a lot like the eternal question on whether someone else could have taken Hogan's spot for the WWF. Paul Orndorff would have never been as big as Hogan and the fact is, there was nobody who could have been Austin. He's such a rare entity. I think Time Warner AOL still would have unloaded WCW eventually but without Austin helping destroy them in the ratings, WCW would have been worth more to someone.
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Dec 29, 2012 20:53
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Shiki Dan posted:WCW would've had more ground since Goldberg would have still exploded. Except that Goldberg was only pushed because of his resemblance to Steve Austin, so no Austin means no Goldberg mega-push either.
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Dec 29, 2012 20:59
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Saul Goode posted:Except that Goldberg was only pushed because of his resemblance to Steve Austin, so no Austin means no Goldberg mega-push either. I have never heard this before. Who said this?
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Dec 29, 2012 21:05
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Yeah, that sounds like quite a load of utter bollocks unless someone can provide a good source.
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Dec 29, 2012 21:07
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Funny since we're talking about Shamrock being Austin, I thought Goldberg was Bischoff going 'Vince, this is how you should have booked Shamrock.' That said, while I don't think Goldberg looking like Austin was why he got pushed, it definitely helped him get over.
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Dec 29, 2012 21:14
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Zack_Gochuck posted:I have never heard this before. Who said this? Aside from the fact that it's discussed on a Legends of Wrestling roundtable (I can't remember which one and critics will just say that it's the WWE rewriting history again anyway), it's pretty blatantly obvious that the spiteful, childishly-booked company which hated pushing anyone outside of its former WWF main eventer clique chose to push a guy who was bald, had black trunks and a goatee immediately after the WWE's bald, black-trunks-wearing goateed superstar became huge. Eric Bischoff watched and reacted to everything that Vince did, and tried to one-up him at every opportunity possible - it's ludicrous to think that Goldberg would have been what he was if not for Austin's presence in the WWF. Edit: I meant 'reacted to' instead of copied sorry. Hammond Egger fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Dec 29, 2012 |
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Dec 29, 2012 21:14
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Saul Goode posted:Except that Goldberg was only pushed because of his resemblance to Steve Austin, so no Austin means no Goldberg mega-push either. This is a dumb thing to believe.
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Dec 29, 2012 21:14
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Vince Russo was more about bad ripoffs of WWF characters. Eric Bischoff didn't steal too many WWF gimmicks, he preferred to just sign the wrestlers (which is okay). I could see some people saying, "Hey look WCW has a guy that looks like Austin" but if it was a bad ripoff he would have been called Gold Stone Bill Boston.
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Dec 29, 2012 21:17
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Goldberg definitely had tons charisma, a unique look for his company, a monster push, a monster moveset, and was really, really loving strong. He was pushed for reasons beyond Austin, and even if that was a factor initially, that wouldn't have been enough to put Goldberg where he went. And while Foley & DX were big acts during the Austin Era, the only one in the WWF that was really comparable was The Rock. Without Austin, all of those, including Rock, would have had less of an impact simply because their #1 draw would not have been around.
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Dec 29, 2012 21:18
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Saul Goode posted:Aside from the fact that it's discussed on a Legends of Wrestling roundtable (I can't remember which one and critics will just say that it's the WWE rewriting history again anyway), it's pretty blatantly obvious that the spiteful, childishly-booked company which hated pushing anyone outside of its former WWF main eventer clique chose to push a guy who was bald, had black trunks and a goatee immediately after the WWE's bald, black-trunks-wearing goateed superstar became huge. Goldberg was not even close to Steve Austin, looks-wise, behaviour-wise, booking-wise. But because they wore roughly similar gear and had the same hair-style, clearly Uncle Eric was pulling a fast one. Your theory was dumb and you should feel dumb.
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Dec 29, 2012 21:22
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The only thing Bischoff wanted to copy in Goldberg was NHB/MMA and even that became less noticeable as his push grew. The funny thing is, Russo tried to turn Goldberg into a Steve Austin copy later on.
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Dec 29, 2012 21:24
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MassRayPer posted:This is a dumb thing to believe. VogeGandire posted:Goldberg was not even close to Steve Austin, looks-wise, behaviour-wise, booking-wise. But because they wore roughly similar gear and had the same hair-style, clearly Uncle Eric was pulling a fast one. It isn't my theory and Jim Ross vouches for it but yeah, "Goldberg was not even close to Steve Austin looks-wise" is a sentence that I will treasure for the rest of the day, thanks.
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Dec 29, 2012 21:25
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Great White Hope posted:Funny since we're talking about Shamrock being Austin, I thought Goldberg was Bischoff going 'Vince, this is how you should have booked Shamrock.' This is the story I've heard as well. Which I still find odd, since I remember Shamrock being insanely over during the first half of '98.
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Dec 29, 2012 21:26
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Saul Goode posted:It isn't my theory and Jim Ross vouches for it but yeah, "Goldberg was not even close to Steve Austin looks-wise" is a sentence that I will treasure for the rest of the day, thanks. Go ahead, bro. You're the one comparing two guys purely because they're both bald with vaguely similar facial hair, ignoring the rest of their body and face. gently caress, by your logic, I grow some facial hair and shave my head, I'll look like Bill loving Goldberg.
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Dec 29, 2012 21:30
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VogeGandire posted:Go ahead, bro. You're the one comparing two guys purely because they're both bald with vaguely similar facial hair, ignoring the rest of their body and face. gently caress, by your logic, I grow some facial hair and shave my head, I'll look like Bill loving Goldberg. Do you seriously think that when Bill Goldberg was coming through the WCW Power Plant, they looked at him independently and said, "Yes, plain black trunks and a gimmickless look is exactly what this guy needs"? From Eric Bischoff, who when he fired Steve Austin literally told him that "a guy in black trunks and boots will never get over"? (And no, before you ask, I don't have the source for that quote directly to hand but it was pretty wide-spread around the time that Austin got his fed-exed pink slip from WCW. I'm sure the Meltz would be able to verify if anyone's that inclined to ask.) By your logic Bill Goldberg would have had to have been as physically similar to Austin as the Harris Twins were to each other for there to be any chance of someone claiming WCW used Austin as a template. Bischoff was petty and spiteful and had very few original ideas, and if there was no Steve Austin then Bill Goldberg (who was incredibly green and undeserving of the megapush that he got on debut) could have easily entered WCW as a new member of the Road Warriors with giant spiky shoulderpads and facepaint. Or a costumed new member of a reformed Dungeon of Doom. Or Hulk Hogan's suit-wearing bodyguard. Or any number of gimmicks which weren't designed to resemble in the most petty fashion imaginable the top star from the rival company.
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Dec 29, 2012 21:42
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Saul Goode posted:It isn't my theory and Jim Ross vouches for it but yeah, "Goldberg was not even close to Steve Austin looks-wise" is a sentence that I will treasure for the rest of the day, thanks. Jim Ross worked for the WWF in 1997 and 1998 and knew nothing about the inner workings of WCW. The only people who could speak to the push of Goldberg better than say Dave Meltzer are Eric Bischoff, Kevin Sullivan and Goldberg, plus maybe Terry Taylor and Arn Anderson. I've never heard Dave say Goldberg was pushed because he looked like Goldberg. I'm sure that played into it a tiny bit, but come on. They were already pushing him in the fall of 97 before Austin broke out the way he did. They did what they did in the spring of 98 because he was getting over so huge already and because Hogan wanted to main event a Dome show.
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Dec 29, 2012 21:44
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I might be remembering wrong but I thought Bill Goldberg was actually Eric Bischoff's answer to Taz in ECW.
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Dec 29, 2012 21:45
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Saul Goode posted:Do you seriously think that when Bill Goldberg was coming through the WCW Power Plant, they looked at him independently and said, "Yes, plain black trunks and a gimmickless look is exactly what this guy needs"? From Eric Bischoff, who when he fired Steve Austin literally told him that "a guy in black trunks and boots will never get over"? (And no, before you ask, I don't have the source for that quote directly to hand but it was pretty wide-spread around the time that Austin got his fed-exed pink slip from WCW. I'm sure the Meltz would be able to verify if anyone's that inclined to ask.) Goldberg debuted half way through 1997, going straight into the megapush. Austin was only just starting to pick up speed while Goldberg was tearing apart jobbers. In fact, funnily enough, according to Wikipedia, Goldberg debuted on exactly the same night that of the first live Raw from MSG, where the Austin/McMahon feud started. So unless Eric Bischoff was clairvoyant, how would he predict Austin becoming WWF's top name and order Goldberg to "copy" him? (e) \/\/\/ What can I say, I like a good debate. I'd buy him being cut from the same cloth as Taz way more, with all the power moves, and squash matches. Gyro Zeppeli fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Dec 29, 2012 |
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Dec 29, 2012 21:48
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VogeGandire posted:Goldberg debuted half way through 1997, going straight into the megapush. Austin was only just starting to pick up speed while Goldberg was tearing apart jobbers. In fact, funnily enough, according to Wikipedia, Goldberg debuted on exactly the same night that the Austin/McMahon feud started. So unless Eric Bischoff was clairvoyant, how would he predict Austin becoming WWF's top name and order Goldberg to "copy" him? I think at this point you are arguing your point for the sake of arguing it. Austin was a huge star in the WWF already. Saul is right that they did have a similar look but it was more of a "WWF Fanboy" argument that Goldberg was just an Austin clone because they were both bald with goatees. His point falls right apart when he tries to pretend Bischoff was ripping the Stone Cold gimmick off. Again, I think he was more supposed to be Taz than Austin. They really played up his "hybrid fighting" style. He was also one of the only guys in WCW/nWo Revenge who could do marital arts combos.
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Dec 29, 2012 21:51
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