|
Well, (Deadhouse Gates) there goes Kulp and Baudin. I was actually really disappointed with Kulp's death. I guess it was mainly to show how strong the D'ivers and Soletaken are. They're a lot more imposing than shapeshifters in some of the other books I've read, so I've kind of been sleeping on them. But they really are a big deal, huh?
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2012 23:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 05:23 |
|
|
apophenium posted:Well, (Deadhouse Gates) there goes Kulp and Baudin. I was actually really disappointed with Kulp's death. I guess it was mainly to show how strong the D'ivers and Soletaken are. They're a lot more imposing than shapeshifters in some of the other books I've read, so I've kind of been sleeping on them. But they really are a big deal, huh? Everyone's a big deal in these books, until a bigger badass comes along and kills them offhandedly. there isn't much plot armour for anyone, although being killed doesn't always mean your story is finished.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2012 00:25
|
|
|
Well, Just finished Forge of Darkness. It was really good, but if you hadn't read the previous Malazan books I fear it would be pretty terrible to read through. It's an origin story, but it relies too much on the reader caring about things because he knows the the characters in their later years. Mother Dark is quite underwhelming considering I've spent the last 6 years reading page after page about why her disappearance was so terrible. Rodnik fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Dec 23, 2012 |
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2012 02:49
|
|
|
I finished Dust of Dreams last night. Holy gently caress. Tool and Tocs story was brutal. Gotta admit, I put the book down for a few minutes after reading about Tool killing the last of the Barghast. Just waiting on TCG to arrive, and (naively, probably) hoping for a good end for Tavore & the Bonehunters zokie posted:DoDThey are ghosts in Icariums mind, they got trapped there when his machines in Letharas exploded and made some new warrens. Thanks for that! I didn't really understand that particular storyline until I saw it from that perspective. Edit: Got The First Collected Tales of Bauchelain and Korbal Broach; are there any spoilers for TCG or am I good reading it? zzttaozia fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Dec 27, 2012 |
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2012 04:30
|
|
|
Rodnik posted:Well, Just finished Forge of Darkness. It was really good, but if you hadn't read the previous Malazan books I fear it would be pretty terrible to read through. It's an origin story, but it relies too much on the reader caring about things because he knows the the characters in their later years. I liked that it wasn't some earth shattering event, it shows how pivotal moments accrue a mythos over the millennia when people are able to look back with 20/20 hindsight. poo poo should get real in the next two when everyone decides the hip thing to do is drink dragon blood and go wild.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2012 18:27
|
|
|
Are there any companion discussions of the books I could read that don't have spoilers for later books in the series? I'm aching to get opinions on some events in the books as I'm reading them. I was going to read the Tor.com read-a-long, but they have a huge disclaimer about its spoilerness.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2012 02:13
|
|
|
apophenium posted:Are there any companion discussions of the books I could read that don't have spoilers for later books in the series? I'm aching to get opinions on some events in the books as I'm reading them. I was going to read the Tor.com read-a-long, but they have a huge disclaimer about its spoilerness.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2012 02:17
|
|
|
apophenium posted:Are there any companion discussions of the books I could read that don't have spoilers for later books in the series? I'm aching to get opinions on some events in the books as I'm reading them. I was going to read the Tor.com read-a-long, but they have a huge disclaimer about its spoilerness. Avoid. You could start reading that when you are three books in. But I'd suggest to avoid everything. In any case, it all material that is useful for the deserved re-reads.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2012 04:08
|
|
|
savinhill posted:I think one factor that can narrow down which creatures are demons is that if they're a race that can be summoned and commanded by sorcerers/wizards then they can be considered demons. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2012 21:31
|
|
|
coyo7e posted:Such as Hairlock..? Once Quick Ben has his strings around you... Being made from ancient magic that hasn't been seen in thousands of years I'm not sure you can count him in the standard set of definitions. Also as I said. It might not even be a soul shifted thing, but rather a QB thing. Edit: ooh wait. It was almost a form of necromancy. Necromancers work with dead and demons, as we see with Bauchelain and Korbal Broach. Maybe things that can be summoned an controlled by magic are either demons or undead. He'd be covered in undead. Masonity fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Dec 27, 2012 |
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2012 21:36
|
|
|
Almost done with DoD, add when Strahl sheathed his sword and marched the Senan away from the battle with the Akrynnai as one of my favorite series moments. It just felt right.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2012 00:45
|
|
|
Finished Blood and Bone today. Not as good as OST but I really enjoyed it. Some interesting characters (Murk/Sour, Golan/Thorn, Saeng/Pon-Lor) and the nature of the gods was fleshed out a bit. As with every Malazan book, some questions: Who was Lek? Ardata's daughter? I think Ardata may represent order and persistence, with T'riss representing change (she is from the Vitr). Was Ardata trying to protect her daughter from change? I didn't get the signifigance of Lek at all. What was Pon-Lor suffering from at the end? Was it just an infection? Did this enable him to combine the Thaumaturge and shaman teachings (mind and flesh) to become more powerful? Does Kallor have any relationship to Ardata? Intro passage from chapter XI: "Ancient legend has it that within the central tower of the ceremonial complex dwells a goddess, or genie, wformed in the shape of a giant serpent with nine heads. During certain propitous nights of the year this genie appears in the shape of a woman, with whom the god-king must couple. Should the king fail to keep his tryst, disaster is sure to follow"
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2012 02:20
|
|
|
So wait, is Esslemont's series finished now?
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2012 13:16
|
|
|
I think there is one more about what the hell is happening in Assail.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2012 16:15
|
|
|
Larsa posted:I think there is one more about what the hell is happening in Assail. And once that's done he's going to take over the Karsa series... no. He's not. If its even suggested I imagine he'd meet a very improbable but sudden demise.
|
|
#
?
Dec 28, 2012 17:50
|
|
|
So... thoughts on this new recommended reading order? http://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2012/12/updated-malazan-reading-order-and-map.html quote:Gardens of the Moon
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2012 02:59
|
|
|
That reading order just follows the timeline of the books, apart from NOK as that's more or less a prequel. I think moving between Eriksson and ICE would make the series quite disjointed. While the timelines make sense, the authors each have their own focus; Erikson writes the Malazan perspective, with ICE focusing on the Guard. I'd recommend people read the fallen series first before moving on to ICE. Forge of Darkness can be read before or after ICE, but it should definitely not be read before finishing the fallen.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2012 15:42
|
|
|
Finished Deadhouse Gates last night, left me pretty exasperated. The last fourth or so really picked up the pace. Coltaine and the Mappo/Icarium relationship were probably my favorite sections of the book. A few quick questions, though. I don't really get the whole Laseen is a corpse thing. Like, not even at all. Maybe it's explained in Memories of Ice. I also really want to ask about the laughing god at Duiker's death. I'm guessing it's Fener, since Heboric was unable to see whose corpse it was. I'm guessing since his corpse was recovered he might be coming back in some fashion. Also, did Gesler, Stormy, and Truth make it to Aren with the injured soldiers? I might have read over it, but I don't remember if they did or not. Most of these will probably get answered in the next book, but whatever. Deadhouse Gates seemed fairly different from the first book. I really enjoyed the Felisin arc, so I'm definitely interested in seeing how that pans out. Also, I guess I haven't seen the last of Coltaine, based on the epilogue.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2012 20:06
|
|
|
apophenium posted:
Not entirely sure if it does or not but: It's basically a corpse-puppet trick, if I'm remembering correctly. Laseen isn't stupid enough to actually put herself in the same room as Kalam
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2012 20:30
|
|
|
Oh Snapple! posted:Not entirely sure if it does or not but: For some reason I was thinking Laseen was actually already dead and something bigger was going on in the background. I was reading too hard into it I guess!
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2012 20:35
|
|
|
I'm reading the Kindle version of Memories of Ice and have noticed a ton of editing errors. Missing periods, words left in that make no sense in the sentence, spelling errors. Kind of annoying. They even spelled Coll as Coil a few times. It's nice to be back with the characters from the first book, though.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2013 21:51
|
|
|
apophenium posted:I'm reading the Kindle version of Memories of Ice and have noticed a ton of editing errors. Missing periods, words left in that make no sense in the sentence, spelling errors. Kind of annoying. They even spelled Coll as Coil a few times. It's nice to be back with the characters from the first book, though. Yeah, that one is the worst. Luckily everything else I've read (up to Reaper's Gate) doesn't have any problems. At first I thought it was a spacing issue for Morn where the r and n just run together... nope, a whole lot of Mom going on in that book.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2013 23:00
|
|
|
apophenium posted:I'm reading the Kindle version of Memories of Ice and have noticed a ton of editing errors. Missing periods, words left in that make no sense in the sentence, spelling errors. Kind of annoying. They even spelled Coll as Coil a few times. It's nice to be back with the characters from the first book, though. They probably OCR'd it, which is really disappointing that they haven't fixed it by now. Long ago when I got my Kindle keyboard after it was released, one of the first books I bought was Return of the Crimson Guard, and man, the formatting and errors were terrible. For the letter "I" I saw everything from / to // to even a few j's. Not to mention the text was wholly shifted to the right on the screen. Since then I usually download a sample first to check out if any effort was put into the ebook, especially for older novels new to ebook format; also I often will search the reviews for "kindle" to get the kindle-only reviews and see if there's mention of formatting problems/errors. I redownloaded a sample of it a few months ago and it looks like they fixed the major problems, and don't even offer the version I bought anymore. If you scroll far down next to the bottom of the ebook's store page on Amazon, there's a blue-shaded "Feedback" box and there's an option for reporting poor quality and formatting. It probably won't change anything, but if they get enough reports who knows. And if it really bothers you, you can return an ebook within 7 days by going to the book in "manage my kindle," there's a dropdown box option for returning. I've lost patience myself for lovely ebooks, but it's hard when you're involved in a series and can't easily just switch to a new book.
|
|
#
?
Jan 5, 2013 23:05
|
|
|
So I just have started the first book, well listening to the audiobook, and I'm finding it pretty awesome thus far. I was, however, wondering if I should man up and get the print books. Have any of you guys listened to the audiobooks? What are your opinions of the versus the print version?
|
|
#
?
Jan 6, 2013 22:25
|
|
|
nutranurse posted:So I just have started the first book, well listening to the audiobook, and I'm finding it pretty awesome thus far. I was, however, wondering if I should man up and get the print books. Have any of you guys listened to the audiobooks? What are your opinions of the versus the print version? I haven't tried the audiobooks, but as someone going through the series for the first time I couldn't imagine doing it without the kindle versions. As you get to the later books there is a lot of "wait who the hell was that again?" and having the ability to search is a lifesaver.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2013 01:59
|
|
|
Yeah, it's a series where you flick back through the pages a lot. The cast swells to somewhere between 500 and 1000 characters by the end and he regularly writes sections in intentionally cryptic ways. I couldn't have handled it in audiobook format, and I loved it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2013 10:31
|
|
|
Well huh, I might try getting the books then. I'll be honest that there are long stretches where it's just filler noise for me, but given how detailed this series is I should find myself a different audiobook to fulfill that role. I'd say anyone who has read the series should listen to the audiobooks though, Ralph Lister has an amazing voice.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2013 18:05
|
|
|
I'd read up to Toll the Hounds and read some of that before I got distracted with uni work and never went back to it. Got a kindle for christmas so I'm working my way back through all of the books since I've forgotten so much. I'm picking up on tons of things that you wouldn't first time round as it jogs my memory though which is nice. I'm on Deadhouse Gates and, its a minor question but one I never really paid attention to first time around. How old is the empire and how old are the human characters supposed to all be? Does everyone just live longer and its not explained because it doesn't actually matter?
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2013 12:18
|
|
|
Scott Bakula posted:I'd read up to Toll the Hounds and read some of that before I got distracted with uni work and never went back to it. Got a kindle for christmas so I'm working my way back through all of the books since I've forgotten so much. I'm picking up on tons of things that you wouldn't first time round as it jogs my memory though which is nice. I'm on Deadhouse Gates and, its a minor question but one I never really paid attention to first time around. How old is the empire and how old are the human characters supposed to all be? Does everyone just live longer and its not explained because it doesn't actually matter? This is totally off the top of my head but the empire is supposed to be somewhere in the 140 years or so old range I believe? And the major (malaz empire) players are old as gently caress, but had their ageing messed with by high denul allowing them much longer lives.
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2013 13:45
|
|
|
I haven't read too much of the thread because I'm interested in reading these. Could someone (briefly) compare the depictions of violence to Shadow of the Torturer or George Martin? I have enjoyed the Game of Thrones books, but the later ones were a little darker than what I usually read for fun.
Cabbages and VHS fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Jan 10, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2013 00:02
|
|
|
Erikson can get pretty brutal and dark, but there is a tonal difference between Malazan and ASoIaF on that front. With Martin it generally comes off as pandering to me, people buy his books expecting him to treat everyone in them like poo poo and violently kill them just because and he happily obliges. Erikson, as stated, can get equally dark. There have been scenes that left me as basically  brought to life. The difference is that Erikson doesn't do those scenes just to do them, and he doesn't come off as spiteful toward his characters when he does it. There tends to be some meaning present, whether it be for a character's development or to serve the particular themes he's working on with that particular arc.But I am heavily, heavily biased because I hate Martin so someone else may be of better help with this.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2013 00:40
|
|
|
Oh Snapple! posted:But I am heavily, heavily biased because I hate Martin so someone else may be of better help with this. Nah you pretty much hit the nail on the head. I like GrrM for the most part, but his sadistic obsession with having his characters tortured/raped/killed every other chapter is pretty annoying. While bad poo poo happens to people in the malazan books, it usually serves a purpose for the plot or character development, and it's done sparingly enough that it's more meaningful. Although on the flip side, in malazan when someone is killed off there's a 75% chance they come back in some form or another, so that lessens the impact.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2013 03:57
|
|
|
I think the answer depends on what is meant by 'depictions of violence.' I agree that the tone of the violence in Malazan is a little less deliberately sadistic than what GRRM excretes, but the actual descriptions of what's going down can be much worse. Erikson's great at gritty, realistic violence and some of the details of the acts are pretty horrifying. The scale is often different too -- this series has a lot of battles between warring armies / groups, and there are long stretches that are absolutely soaked in blood and viscera and people getting hewn in half. It doesn't feel exploitative, but it IS really drat vivid.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2013 04:29
|
|
|
Erikson's depictions of violence, like many aspects of this series, get a lot worse in later books. I thought the scenes of rape/sexual torture in Reaper's Gale were graphic to the point of being distasteful. The violence in the battle scenes is also completely absurd at times. I can remember a scene where Erikson actually describes someone's scapula flying through the air. Juaguocio fucked around with this message at 05:42 on Jan 10, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2013 04:54
|
|
|
Oh Snapple! posted:But I am heavily, heavily biased because I hate Martin so someone else may be of better help with this. You got it right. Erikson tends to have less "amoral" violence. It's typically either for self-preservation, for a good reason or it's something bad happening to someone. Gurm has this schtick where bad things happen to bad people by bad people and everyone's just an rear end in a top hat, which makes it feel pointless and weird.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2013 04:55
|
|
|
NovemberMike posted:You got it right. Erikson tends to have less "amoral" violence. It's typically either for self-preservation, for a good reason or it's something bad happening to someone. Gurm has this schtick where bad things happen to bad people by bad people and everyone's just an rear end in a top hat, which makes it feel pointless and weird. Erikson still uses violence as a marker of evil though. As Juaguocio mentions the depictions of rape are ridiculous and rape is almost primarily "bad" characters raping "good" ones. For the most obvious examples think about the hobbling of Hetan and the rape of Janath which were gratuitous and either pointless or actively hypocritical. Also, when Karsa rapes nearby womenfolk it is neatly excused and then considered not-really-rape. None of the "good" barbarians rape or commit totally senseless acts of violence like the "bad" ones do. Sir Bruce fucked around with this message at 06:07 on Jan 10, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2013 06:05
|
|
|
Sir Bruce posted:and rape is almost primarily "bad" characters raping "good" ones. Now I really want to hear from you cases where "good" characters do the raping. quote:Erikson still uses violence as a marker of evil Why, do you think VIOLENCE can be a marker of goodness? quote:None of the "good" barbarians rape or commit totally senseless acts of violence like the "bad" ones do. Like Karsa? "Not really rape", really? I think it's your own moral compass to be totally broken here. Abalieno fucked around with this message at 07:24 on Jan 10, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2013 07:19
|
|
|
Abalieno posted:Now I really want to hear from you cases where "good" characters do the raping. Haha what the hell are you talking about? Where exactly do you think I said that Erikson used VIOLENCE as a marker of goodness? And thinking that Erikson kind-of excuses Karsa's rapes means I have a broken moral compass?  It's more that Erikson faces a tough tension in describing a coherent culture versus making an attractive story with clearly delineated good and bad characters (or characters we root for or against if you prefer). Hobbling is the best example Erikson makes it extremely clear that hobbling (debasement, disfigurement, and perpetual raping) of women is standard practice among all the Barghast. However, only the evil Barghast are seen performing this totally gratuitous act, never the good ones. Given Erikson's portrayal of hobbling as socially accepted and a normal activity within the Barghast it is obvious that their warleaders and 'good guys' Onos T'oolan and Humbrall Taur approved and were likely participatants in the practice regularly. The fact that Erikson chose to use hobbling only for the 'evil' Barghast and not the 'good' ones is silly and at ends with his attempts to coherently portray a culture different from our own. As for Karsa, he rapes women in the village. Then after sex, she says that it was okay for him to do that because he must have been stronger than her previous men. (or something like that, I don't have the books present at the moment). But Karsa's a "good" character as far as the narrative is concerned so his barbarism is de facto turned to "good violence" as the story arc continues. No more raping and pillaging and more slaughtering the evil guys. Yes it's obvious that he doesn't have the exact same definition of evil as we do but it's close enough for the sake of a cleanly defined nobel savage protagonist.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2013 07:51
|
|
|
Sir Bruce posted:As for Karsa, he rapes women in the village. Then after sex, she says that it was okay for him to do that because he must have been stronger than her previous men. (or something like that, I don't have the books present at the moment). But Karsa's a "good" character as far as the narrative is concerned so his barbarism is de facto turned to "good violence" as the story arc continues. No more raping and pillaging and more slaughtering the evil guys. Yes it's obvious that he doesn't have the exact same definition of evil as we do but it's close enough for the sake of a cleanly defined nobel savage protagonist. There was a write up a while back, posted in this thread, going over the tropes of the noble savage and how they applied to Karsa however, I also see a great deal of Robert Howard's Conan in Karsa - aloof, mostly amoral, mostly uncaring about anyone who's not from his tribe, or at least who is a strong enough warrior to respect and/or fear, and not really actively "noble" in any sense of the word outside of his own monumental ego and the attitude which stems from it. coyo7e fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Jan 10, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2013 18:59
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 05:23 |
|
|
Sir Bruce posted:As for Karsa, he rapes women in the village. Then after sex, she says that it was okay for him to do that because he must have been stronger than her previous men. (or something like that, I don't have the books present at the moment). But Karsa's a "good" character as far as the narrative is concerned so his barbarism is de facto turned to "good violence" as the story arc continues. No more raping and pillaging and more slaughtering the evil guys. Yes it's obvious that he doesn't have the exact same definition of evil as we do but it's close enough for the sake of a cleanly defined nobel savage protagonist. Karsa's morality is that the strong do what they will and the weak suffer what they must. Other notions of good and evil don't really enter into his character. He plans to destroy civilization because he thinks it's weak.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2013 08:42
|
|
