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Rurik posted:Not that brilliant considering it was seen through, which led to his downfall. Huh? I thought it only failed because Monza turned it into a real battle.
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Dec 28, 2012 17:57
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Blind Melon posted:Huh? I thought it only failed because Monza turned it into a real battle. She did so because Duke Orso found out and told her to do that and assume Cosca's position.
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Dec 28, 2012 18:23
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just finished red country, enjoyed it but have some issues with it. The rebels are in Starikland, is that area play any part in the trilogy or best served cold? I cant place it. I was sad at Cosca dying- I would have liked to see him survive. The ending was anticlimatic, him leaving was a sucky way to end the book. I wish I had a better understanding of what the dragon was for.
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Dec 28, 2012 19:51
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Errr you should spoil the middle revelation in your statement there dude. The Dragon was some sort of invention by the Kanedias, they never really go into detail what its exact purpose was. Judging by his previous inventions like the Shanka it probably wouldn't have been good though.
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Dec 28, 2012 20:39
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The politics in Red Country felt underdeveloped, which is a bummer because I thought there could be some really interesting world developments there. The rebellion for instance, what are their goals? "Death to the Union," obviously, but then what? Are they freedom fighters wanting to restore Starikland to independent rule? Do they want to depose the monarchy and set up another form of government? Revolutionaries generally have some kind of ideology that catalyzes their movement, and I think Abercrombie missed a great chance to flesh out his world here. There were plenty of times for him to expose the ideals and motives of the rebellion through Savian without being too over-expository. I understand that Abercrombie deliberately goes light on the backstory stuff, but I think that it weakens the narrative here because the rebellion is a major plot point and the only motives we see from rebels are on the level of "gently caress you, dad!!"
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Dec 29, 2012 01:58
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Rurik posted:She did so because Duke Orso found out and told her to do that and assume Cosca's position. And if I recall correctly Orzo found out because Monzas brother told him
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Dec 29, 2012 03:09
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Blind Melon posted:And if I recall correctly Orzo found out because Monzas brother told him Yeah, he was always a dick, even Monza admits that at some point. I also remember it was him who told the duke.
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Dec 29, 2012 10:05
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I've enjoyed all of abercrombies books so far. The first law trilogy are by far my favorites out of the 6 that I've read. I feel like the characters are a little played out IMO and I almost stopped reading red country because I can't stand Cosca anymore. I hope he moves into a new world or time frame soon.
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Dec 30, 2012 04:26
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Mr Pepper posted:I've enjoyed all of abercrombies books so far. The first law trilogy are by far my favorites out of the 6 that I've read. I have to admit that I'm finding Cosca's descent into ruthlessness compelling. With a little tweaking he would have probably been one of my favorites but all his lines were annoying and I've never liked his comically convoluted reasoning that everyone around him goes along with for some reason. I feel like he's a character straight out of Jack Vance and it clashes with the setting. But this scene  Red Country posted:Temple closed his eyes. God, it stank. Smoke, and blood, and fury, and smoke. He needed water. He turned to ask Sufeen for some and saw his corpse in the mud a few strides away. A man of principle must make hard choices and suffer the consequences.
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Dec 30, 2012 05:03
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Above Our Own posted:Thankfully Abercrombie has moved farther and farther away from extreme one-note personalities. I just think he's not very good at writing them. I've always hated Cosca, and I hated Kroy and Poulder in TFL. Morover was tolerable to me because I thought he had enough nuance to round out his character. It's not ruthlessness at all that drives him, it's just money, the same thing that has driven him for the five previous books. His constant greed has left him so jaded to the point where he doesn't care about anything except where the next bottle is. All he talks about in red country is how numb he feels and bored he's become, which in turn makes me extremely bored to read his chapters.
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Dec 30, 2012 05:10
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Mr Pepper posted:I feel like the characters are a little played out IMO and I almost stopped reading red country because I can't stand Cosca anymore. I hope he moves into a new world or time frame soon. Did you finish Red Country?
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Dec 30, 2012 05:15
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Mr Pepper posted:It's not ruthlessness at all that drives him, it's just money, the same thing that has driven him for the five previous books. His constant greed has left him so jaded to the point where he doesn't care about anything except where the next bottle is. All he talks about in red country is how numb he feels and bored he's become, which in turn makes me extremely bored to read his chapters. My problem with Cosca is that he's so unrealistically and comically flamboyant that it jerks my suspension of disbelief. Jerks it real good.
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Dec 30, 2012 06:46
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Above Our Own posted:I don't think of ruthlessness as a motive or a driving force. I don't think greed is his real motive either, I think he's addicted to the chase after money, danger, and fame which could make for a compelling character. I Dont know about that nothing he does is really "unrealistic" I think he fits the bill of a very charismatic but ultimately unlikable person very well.
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Jan 1, 2013 00:58
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Just finished TFL trilogy this week, and it feels unfinished. There were several plot points that I wanted fleshed out more. Guess its time to pickup the stand alones and go through those and hope they get addressed =) The Glokta storyline was absolutely amazing. By the end I had a hard time visualizing that character as anything other than a version of Black Adder.
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Jan 2, 2013 05:04
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I've been wondering this since I started my second listen of the original trilogy. When Abercrombie says "clicks" as in "Glokta's neck clicked." does he mean popped or cracked? Contextually it's the only thing that makes sense, but I've never heard it used that way.
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Jan 2, 2013 05:23
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I think he actually means it clicks. Maybe some bones broke and didn't quite heal right, and now when they move past each other, a 'clicking' sound is transmitted to the ear. I have something similar in my foot.
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Jan 3, 2013 00:12
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I just burnt through Red Country in about 3 sittings, I enjoyed it but the western theme didn't work for me and the characters weren't too interesting. Temple and Shy were okay, I liked them, but they were quite unremarkable and the story needed something a bit more dramatic to hold it all together than what we got. I don't know if it's just but I also found some of the humour to not be that funny and a bit forced at some moments, I can't pull up any specific examples out of memory but it kept nagging me. I just had the odd realization that I didn't like the book much at all and didn't feel like there was much pay off, but I'm probably just tired and I'll have to reread it in the future to see if I can appreciate it more.
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Jan 3, 2013 05:35
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Started reading The First Law Trilogy thanks to the recommendation thread. The lack of female representation is a lot less annoying when the characters are written so well. I'm just starting out but I really like the contrast between the three main characters. This is the first time the merging together for a quest thing has actually worked for me.
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Jan 6, 2013 05:38
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Can I just say Abercrombie may be the most frustrating writer that I'm a huge fan of? Say what you will about GRRM, regardless of where he has(or hasn't) taken the story by the end of the book, I'm totally absorbed from start to finish. My thought process through an Abercrombie book is usually a vicious cycle of: "This could be interesting...." "Is this ever going to go anywhere...?" "Maybe I'll just skim this page..." Typically I always reach a point where I get absorbed and can't put the books down, but it's not always an easy journey there. That said, I reaaaaally hope Red Country picks up after the fellowship section. However, After Sweet met with the Ghosts, I couldn't WAIT for Logen to go Brock Samson and Abercrombie did NOT disappoint. Maybe I'm a horrible person myself, but this ruthless mother fuckers with heart's of gold are why I read every single one of his books.
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Jan 7, 2013 23:41
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But Logen's heart is pretty much poo poo.
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Jan 8, 2013 01:23
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Some hatin of Cosca going on here, he wasn't always jaded, if you remember in BSC he taught Monza and her brother how to read. So he hasn't always been a heartless person, but during the time frame of the stories we read he is. It would be interesting to read his story from the beginning I think.
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Jan 8, 2013 06:26
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Finished Red Country last night after powering through the last 200-odd pages in one go. I think the Western theme felt a bit tacked-on, and at times I hoped he'd just written a standalone Western instead of making it part of his fantasy world, but the amount of blood and plot twists towards the end made up for it. In any case, I'll be buying whatever Abercrombie comes up with next. Just feel bad I missed an opportunity to go to a book signing last October!
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Jan 8, 2013 22:19
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Destro posted:Some hatin of Cosca going on here, he wasn't always jaded, if you remember in BSC he taught Monza and her brother how to read. So he hasn't always been a heartless person, but during the time frame of the stories we read he is. It would be interesting to read his story from the beginning I think.
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Jan 9, 2013 00:21
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Above Our Own posted:I think he gets worse even between TFL - Red Country. Although it could just be that Abercrombie slowly reveals just how horrible he is as the books go along. I thought the same thing. I'm not sure if not having his POV makes him feel more brutal and vicious, or if he got worse between the books.
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Jan 9, 2013 20:32
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I read it as him becoming progressively crazier as the years went on. He starts off as a traitorous mercenary with a taste for theatrics (while still being a fine tactician and having some redeeming qualities), but his complete lack of self-control turns him into the wreck he is in Red Country.RebBrownies posted:Started reading The First Law Trilogy thanks to the recommendation thread. The lack of female representation is a lot less annoying when the characters are written so well. One thing that Joe commented when he was doing a re-read of the trilogy is that he's aware now that the lack of female characters is kinda lovely. He amends that in the later books, with Best Served Cold and Red Country both having female leads. I guess there was Finree in The Heroes as well, but she wasn't nearly as interesting as Monza or Shy.
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Jan 11, 2013 04:39
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Could somebody tell me if [BSC/TH]we have an exact picture of what Gorst did at Sipani? I just finished the Heroes and it seems really unclear to me. Was he truly a scapegoat or did he legitimately gently caress up? I had a flick back over the Cardotti's scene but there doesn't seem to be any mention of a dude with no neck, and I can't work out where he would have been.
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Jan 11, 2013 08:15
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:Could somebody tell me if [BSC/TH]we have an exact picture of what Gorst did at Sipani? I just finished the Heroes and it seems really unclear to me. Was he truly a scapegoat or did he legitimately gently caress up? I had a flick back over the Cardotti's scene but there doesn't seem to be any mention of a dude with no neck, and I can't work out where he would have been. BSC/THShivers runs into Gorst on the stairs during the fire, when he's looking for Monza. They basically come face to face, Gorst was drunk and/or with the ladies.
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Jan 11, 2013 08:20
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Gorefiend posted:BSC/THShivers runs into Gorst on the stairs during the fire, when he's looking for Monza. They basically come face to face, Gorst was drunk and/or with the ladies. I wanted some Gorst in Red Country, no matter how contrived that would've been. Gorst is the best.
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Jan 11, 2013 10:40
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:Could somebody tell me if [BSC/TH]we have an exact picture of what Gorst did at Sipani? I just finished the Heroes and it seems really unclear to me. Was he truly a scapegoat or did he legitimately gently caress up? I had a flick back over the Cardotti's scene but there doesn't seem to be any mention of a dude with no neck, and I can't work out where he would have been.
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Jan 12, 2013 01:00
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I finished The Blade Itself a few days ago. I really enjoyed it, and Ferro was a welcome addition to the party. I hear that most of the mixed reviews come from the second book, and I hope it doesn't make me give up on the series like Rothfuss did with The Wise Man's Fear (maybe someday I will try again). The romances are far better written to say the least. In some ways Bayaz reminds me of the Judge from Blood Meridian. Perhaps it is the whole bald, fat, and ulterior motives vibe I am picking up on. I love when Bayaz ran out naked and still managed to be threatening. I actually like Jezal's character the most to be honest, even though he is entitled and pompous he isn't unlikeable. Logen grew on me except for when he became the Bloody-Nine. The fight scene was well written, but all I could picture was Gerard Butler in the 300. I'm no writer but I actually liked the idea of him not going "super-saiyan" and changing personalities completely. But then again I've never been in a fight and maybe you do change a bit as a person and become more "wild."
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Jan 12, 2013 19:35
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The second book is the best one of the trilogy. It's between that, BSC and Heroes for which one of his I like best, you will love it.
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Jan 13, 2013 02:34
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There is a long journey so some people dislike the 2nd book for that reason. I personally love the book, we get some of the best Glokta chapters.
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Jan 13, 2013 17:42
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Clinton1011 posted:There is a long journey so some people dislike the 2nd book for that reason. I personally love the book, we get some of the best Glokta chapters. Journey's in fantasy books often suck (in Red Country a little, in Lord of the Rings a bit more and a loving lot in the later books of ASOIAF), but the one in Before They Are Hanged was great. A good pace, enough variety, interesting locations and an interesting travelling group.
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Jan 13, 2013 22:33
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I just read the first book and I have to say I really like it. It's grim but the characters are all good, plot was a little bit messy I felt but I didn't mind, I knew it was a set up for the rest of the series. The best scene is easily Logen Ninefingers, beaten and bloodied, giving up and the Bloody-Nine taking over. I loved Logen, he's a great character, but I always felt (after we were introduced to Ferro) that he was an old has been. He could barely keep up with Ferro. Kept getting his rear end kicked. And then that scene. The bloody nine kneels to no man.
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Jan 14, 2013 10:42
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Well then, you are in for a treat. He just gets better and better from there. Everything fears him. Even the cold iron that does not dream. 
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Jan 14, 2013 15:20
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So I finished Red Country and have now caught up on all Abercrombie. I don't have much to add to the discussion, but I want to point out that the section in The Heroes that people keep praising with the constantly-changing POVs during the battle is actually from an episode of Aeon Flux. Season 1, Episode 6, "War". It follows a battle where the POV characters are constantly killed, and every time one of them dies the POV switches to the character who killed them. Abercrombie used it effectively, but I couldn't be too blown away by it because it felt so blatant, and the message behind that episode was basically the message behind the book, too. The whole of Red Country had the same feeling, actually, like he was retelling existing stories that he liked. It was half Unforgiven (right down to having a biographer follow him around who jumps ship to a more interesting character at the end) and half Blood Meridian with Cosca as the Judge. I like what he was doing, though. It felt like he wanted to take whichever characters you still liked by this point and twist them into unlikable monsters just to mess with you, which is keeping in theme with the whole series. Ninefingers comes across as an rear end in a top hat when you're watching him in the third person. I actually think Best Served Cold was probably the best book. He managed to basically summarize The First Law in a much shorter story that was really well paced.
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Jan 16, 2013 13:22
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:The whole of Red Country had the same feeling, actually, like he was retelling existing stories that he liked. It was half Unforgiven (right down to having a biographer follow him around who jumps ship to a more interesting character at the end) and half Blood Meridian with Cosca as the Judge. I like what he was doing, though. It felt like he wanted to take whichever characters you still liked by this point and twist them into unlikable monsters just to mess with you, which is keeping in theme with the whole series. Ninefingers comes across as an rear end in a top hat when you're watching him in the third person. There was a lot of Deadwood in there, too. Like, a ton.
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Jan 16, 2013 15:38
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:So I finished Red Country and have now caught up on all Abercrombie. I don't have much to add to the discussion, but I want to point out that the section in The Heroes that people keep praising with the constantly-changing POVs during the battle is actually from an episode of Aeon Flux. Season 1, Episode 6, "War". It follows a battle where the POV characters are constantly killed, and every time one of them dies the POV switches to the character who killed them. Abercrombie used it effectively, but I couldn't be too blown away by it because it felt so blatant, and the message behind that episode was basically the message behind the book, too.
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Jan 17, 2013 04:53
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Ugh, it's not anime. Aeon Flux owned. Here's the episode in question, it's about five minutes long. http://vimeo.com/49613968 I probably sounded more like a grumpy internet guy than I intended, but I definitely get this "I got all my favourite movies and mashed them together into my own story" vibe from Abercrombie's work sometimes.
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Jan 17, 2013 08:21
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quote:I probably sounded more like a grumpy internet guy than I intended, but I definitely get this "I got all my favourite movies and mashed them together into my own story" vibe from Abercrombie's work sometimes. I don't really get that at all from his stuff beyond the obvious satire and social commentary. The POV swap thing has been used before and it's also pretty possible that Joe had an idea for himself instead of watching an obscure movie. I don't really care either way, even if Joe rips off every idea he's ever had I think he does pretty well with the execution.
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Jan 17, 2013 13:15
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