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Yeah. Other SMT games usually make me entertain the thought of going one ending rather than another, but when I saw the kind of fuckery you had to do for either Law and Chaos endings in that one, I went neutral without any further consideration.
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Jan 3, 2013 12:09
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Speaking of endings, in Nocturne I've only ever achieved the true demon ending. What are the other endings like?
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Jan 3, 2013 12:47
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Devil Survivor still came the closest to having each one's side have something backing it up.
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Jan 3, 2013 12:57
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The_Frag_Man posted:Speaking of endings, in Nocturne I've only ever achieved the true demon ending. What are the other endings like?
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Jan 3, 2013 13:12
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Pureauthor posted:Devil Survivor still came the closest to having each one's side have something backing it up. I actually disliked Overclocked a bit for this because it sort of... diluted the idea that a lot of endings had good and bad aspects by allowing you to basically nullify the bad aspects.
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Jan 3, 2013 13:19
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I still can't figure out which game had worse people backing up their reasons, Nocturne or SJ? I mean, Nocturne's got three schmucks who give their reasons, but when you actually pay attention to what they're asking about, it's really vapid poo poo that they only want because of their own weakness, especially Isamu, holy poo poo is Isamu's petty beyond all belief and Chiaki basically tells you who she's meant to be after the Manikin slaughter. Yet, SJ has the worst pitchers for Chaos and Law ever. The Law side is filled with complete assholes that think instrumentalizing mankind is cool because they're angels and their spokesperson becomes a bigot and the Chaos side is felled with admittedly less antagonistic assholes, but still guys who think Darwinism is a-ok and their spokesperson is a better dude, but even he's obviously sick in the head. It's like both games are practically begging you to pick neutral or in the case of Nocturne the True Demon Ending.
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Jan 3, 2013 15:24
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Sex_Ferguson posted:I still can't figure out which game had worse people backing up their reasons, Nocturne or SJ? I mean, Nocturne's got three schmucks who give their reasons, but when you actually pay attention to what they're asking about, it's really vapid poo poo that they only want because of their own weakness, especially Isamu, holy poo poo is Isamu's petty beyond all belief and Chiaki basically tells you who she's meant to be after the Manikin slaughter. Yet, SJ has the worst pitchers for Chaos and Law ever. The Law side is filled with complete assholes that think instrumentalizing mankind is cool because they're angels and their spokesperson becomes a bigot and the Chaos side is felled with admittedly less antagonistic assholes, but still guys who think Darwinism is a-ok and their spokesperson is a better dude, but even he's obviously sick in the head. Well, I personally think Nocturne's Neutral ending is the best. It was the first one I ever got, and it's really great. There's this sense of relief--I mean, it was the one option that didn't suck. The entire time I played the game, all I could think of was how awful this whole situation was--all these demons doing as they pleased, slavery, black magic, cannibalism, and a world of death and inhumanity. I didn't want that--and then all my friends just...they just change, y'know? One by one they change and I realize I'm the only one, I'm the only one who still thinks he's human. I don't want a new world. I just want the old one back. I just wanted to go home.
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Jan 3, 2013 15:46
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Yeah I like Nocturne's Neutral ending as well. I feel like the Demi-Fiend spent the whole game just kind of rolling his eyes whenever any other humans were talking.
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Jan 3, 2013 15:52
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Sex_Ferguson posted:I still can't figure out which game had worse people backing up their reasons, Nocturne or SJ? I mean, Nocturne's got three schmucks who give their reasons, but when you actually pay attention to what they're asking about, it's really vapid poo poo that they only want because of their own weakness, especially Isamu, holy poo poo is Isamu's petty beyond all belief and Chiaki basically tells you who she's meant to be after the Manikin slaughter. Yet, SJ has the worst pitchers for Chaos and Law ever. The Law side is filled with complete assholes that think instrumentalizing mankind is cool because they're angels and their spokesperson becomes a bigot and the Chaos side is felled with admittedly less antagonistic assholes, but still guys who think Darwinism is a-ok and their spokesperson is a better dude, but even he's obviously sick in the head. I still laugh at how completely  Lucifer was in SJ. He basically shows up once and goes 'Law sucks, Chaos yay' and then everyone just sort of stares at him and he goes away and nothing else becomes of that.
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Jan 3, 2013 16:00
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Sex_Ferguson posted:I still can't figure out which game had worse people backing up their reasons, Nocturne or SJ? I mean, Nocturne's got three schmucks who give their reasons, but when you actually pay attention to what they're asking about, it's really vapid poo poo that they only want because of their own weakness, especially Isamu, holy poo poo is Isamu's petty beyond all belief and Chiaki basically tells you who she's meant to be after the Manikin slaughter. Yet, SJ has the worst pitchers for Chaos and Law ever. The Law side is filled with complete assholes that think instrumentalizing mankind is cool because they're angels and their spokesperson becomes a bigot and the Chaos side is felled with admittedly less antagonistic assholes, but still guys who think Darwinism is a-ok and their spokesperson is a better dude, but even he's obviously sick in the head. Nocturne isn't served very well by the fact that all the endings other than Neutral and TDE are pretty poor and shallow resolutions to everything that came before in the game. SJ worked a little bit better in this regard. I think the problem is that most people are going to be predisposed to going Neutral in most megaten games because it involves the least amount of blowing up the world to accomplish; other options work better with the story makes an effort to show downsides to the Neutral path as you go. I thought SJ implied this (maybe just in my own head) by having Jack's squad be there, who you figure out pretty quickly are terrible people, with a lot of resources sponsored by people who are probably equally terrible. That's the downside to Neutral in SJ, it shows that there are just as many assholes in humanity's ranks are there are in the demons', and destroying the Schwarzwelt isn't going to get rid of them. Pureauthor posted:I still laugh at how completely He's like this in Devil Summoner 2 as well, kind of just wandering around dropping the occasional mysterious line. I choose to believe that the TDE is how Nocturne actually ended, and with the Demi-fiend out wrecking poo poo Lucifer is just like "welp, guess my job's done, I'm gonna take off" and every appearance since is him enjoying vacation time or something.
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Jan 3, 2013 16:10
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Meiteron posted:
As I recall correctly, he's basically only in Devil Summoner 2 as part of some kind of cosmic employee evaluation. Though the King Abaddon thing doesn't really have a whole lot to do with him actually... Wait, in that case, what the gently caress IS he doing in DS2? He definitely pesters you a lot, and he gives you missions and poo poo...maybe he just...doesn't have anything better to do?
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Jan 3, 2013 16:26
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The problem I have is that Law/Chaos are increasingly just like... something that doesn't work when there is a third option. Law is almost universally "humanity is kind of lovely, our only solution is a benevolent dictator" and Chaos is usually either "freedom at all cost, any cost, including morality" or "gently caress you, got mine" depending on the game. When you've got a third choice which is almost always more palatable it loses something. I think Devil Survivor handled this somewhat well by having the neutral ending be "Well, you found a way out. This poo poo is going to happen again in the future, you just put it off." At least it has some sort of negativity to it to match the other two.
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Jan 3, 2013 16:27
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RentCavalier posted:As I recall correctly, he's basically only in Devil Summoner 2 as part of some kind of cosmic employee evaluation. Though the King Abaddon thing doesn't really have a whole lot to do with him actually... It's been about two weeks since I beat DS2 last time, but I recall that Lucifer was the one who gave Dahn the idea about King Abaddon and how he could become that if he took the luck locusts. So, technically, it was Lucifer's fault. As for why he did it, though, I have no idea. Maybe he really did have nothing better to do.
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Jan 3, 2013 16:50
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ImpAtom posted:The problem I have is that Law/Chaos are increasingly just like... something that doesn't work when there is a third option. Nocturne's system was the most interesting, I think. Having different philosophies debate via fisticuffs is a lot more interesting than just "angels vs devils".
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Jan 3, 2013 17:04
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I have to give Devil Survivor credit for being one of the only games where taking the Chaos option is an actual sound plan.
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Jan 3, 2013 17:26
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Pureauthor posted:I still laugh at how completely That's how he was in SMT1 and the original version of Nocturne. I think that the TDE/Amala stuff in Nocturne really gave people the wrong expectations about Lucifer. RentCavalier posted:Nocturne's system was the most interesting, I think. Having different philosophies debate via fisticuffs is a lot more interesting than just "angels vs devils". Nocturne was basically Angels vs Devils (with special guests Isamu and the Trash Mobs) by the end. Hikawa has the Fallen and Chiaki has the Angels.
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Jan 3, 2013 19:40
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TurnipFritter posted:
Yeah, but Chiaki's philosophy is borderline Chaos and Hikawa's idea isn't really in line with either Law or Chaos (it sort of lines up with Law, but mankind becoming a single mass consciousness doesn't preclude it's ability to tell the Good Lord to suck it). Isamu is just sort of whatever, but they almost deliberately subvert the usual alignment set-ups for Nocturne.
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Jan 3, 2013 19:45
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RentCavalier posted:Nocturne's system was the most interesting, I think. Having different philosophies debate via fisticuffs is a lot more interesting than just "angels vs devils". It was but I still think hurt by the philosophies being so extreme that it still guides you towards Neutrality. (Or True Demon if you really want to go "gently caress this poo poo, I'm forging my own path, time to punch God in the face.") I really did like Nocturne's ideas, I just think it was hurt by having a Neutral path.
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Jan 3, 2013 19:50
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ImpAtom posted:It was but I still think hurt by the philosophies being so extreme that it still guides you towards Neutrality. (Or True Demon if you really want to go "gently caress this poo poo, I'm forging my own path, time to punch God in the face.") I really did like Nocturne's ideas, I just think it was hurt by having a Neutral path. Well, only if you choose to view each ending as being equal in weight or canonity. The fact is, for every SMT game since 1 (though perhaps not so much these days) the Neutral ending is always the best ending, on purpose. SMT 1 basically sums it up best: it is better for man to strive and succeed or fail on its own terms than to either give up the burden of independence or succumb to the temptations of the baser self. Law is mankind refusing to live on its own, giving up free thought for the sake of peace. This usually is tinged with a "those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither" sort of sentiment. Chaos is actually very similar to Law--mankind is giving up free thought, but instead of doing it for peaceful subjugation, it's in service of surrendering to the baser self, to become selfish and hedonistic. It's only neutral that basically says "Well, we're not perfect and we make a lot of mistakes, but I still believe in mankind." And that's the key--so long as somebody, even just one person, continues to believe in the potential of mankind, then not even the Gods can stop us.
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Jan 3, 2013 20:24
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RentCavalier posted:Wait, in that case, what the gently caress IS he doing in DS2? He definitely pesters you a lot, and he gives you missions and poo poo...maybe he just...doesn't have anything better to do? Well someone had to go around reminding Raidou XIV about THE SPARK YOUR SPARK YOU ARE THE SPARK
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Jan 4, 2013 05:56
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I just wanted to say, I've owned Nocturne since 2005 and I just beat Matador today. 
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Jan 6, 2013 23:45
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I just wanted to say, I beat Matador today and it doesn't matter much to me as long as he's dead.
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Jan 7, 2013 00:11
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human snorlax posted:I just wanted to say, I've owned Nocturne since 2005 and I just beat Matador today. It was never Matador who used to roadblock me but loving Dante instead. To this day I've never played a DMC game just because I hate him so much.
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Jan 7, 2013 10:15
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I think I tried the mandatory Dante fight twice, but I had no problem against him at all in the Labyrinth of Amala.
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Jan 7, 2013 10:28
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kirbysuperstar posted:I think I tried the mandatory Dante fight twice, but I had no problem against him at all in the Labyrinth of Amala. The loving chase sequence with him was a horrible decision on Atlus' part.
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Jan 7, 2013 10:44
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Two things bother me about Strange Journey, I know the whole less is more thing is always there in these games but: Who are those guys that sit in those chairs discussing the whole thing?? Give me a name or something. Also, spoilers for the end: Is that Aleph supposed to be THE Aleph or they just happen to use that name for the final boss(es)?
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Jan 7, 2013 13:25
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Diabetic posted:Two things bother me about Strange Journey, I know the whole less is more thing is always there in these games but: The Three Wisemen, Melchior, Balthazar and whathisface. They are YHWH's PR here, in short. Regarding Mem Aleph's name, Aleph is the first letter of the hebrew alpahbet. Mem means M and Aleph A. So her name is the prefix ma-, which is the one denothing motherhood in many languages. Iceclaw fucked around with this message at 13:57 on Jan 7, 2013 |
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Jan 7, 2013 13:51
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Iceclaw posted:The Three Wisemen, Melchior, Balthazar and whathisface. They are YHWH's PR here, in short.
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Jan 7, 2013 15:45
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theshim posted:Interestingly enough, though, the Hebrew word for mother is spelled aleph mem. Even more interesting is that Mem and Aleph are two of the 3 goddesses of Jewish creation. The last one? Shin.
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Jan 7, 2013 17:53
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El Belmondo posted:Even more interesting is that Mem and Aleph are two of the 3 goddesses of Jewish creation.
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Jan 7, 2013 18:00
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theshim posted:Wait, what the hell are you talking about? Jewish creation doesn't feature any goddesses. “The three mothers are A, M, SH; and in the beginning as to the Macrocosm the Heavens were created from Fire; the Earth from primeval Water; and the Air was formed from the Spirit, which stands alone in the midst, and is the Mediator between them.” (Sefer Yetzirah 3:3) I don't really know enough about Jewish mysticism to really discuss it any farther, but googling Sefer Yetzirah should give you some stuff to look over.
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Jan 7, 2013 18:31
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Oh god not Sefer Yetzirah.  Allow me to rephrase then. Judaism, being monotheistic, has no goddesses whatsoever. When you bring in mysticism things get incredibly fuzzy and its referring to them as the mothers is confusing as hell because it's ascribing individualism to them rather than as significant concepts. Jewish mysticism is really, really weird and virtually no one actually understands it. This makes it fantastic for pillaging for things to throw into JRPGs but also means it is just going to generate posts like the above!
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Jan 7, 2013 18:46
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Probably goes without saying but besides moral reasons, the other reason that I would always do the neutral endings in SMT 1 and 2 and the True Demon ending in Nocturne is that they have the most content and bosses out of any of the endings. Since you fight all possible bosses rather than skipping the ones who would on your side in other endings, and of course Nocturne's true demon ending has all of the other content associated with it. With regards to the Matador thing earlier, I always think it's odd how the Maniax version introduces such a huge difficulty spike early in the game and it ends up being the version all of us outside Japan get, not that I complain because it's such a memorable part of the game and it forces you to really use the systems to build a good team of demons built to fight him. Though in all times I have played it past the first time I tend to have such a complex that I grind and fuse demons until I am overleveled and the fight seems anticlimactic. Still have not beat him on Hard but it probably has more to do with the prohibitively high cost of magatama. I guess I will be shelling out for a 3DS for SMT4 and also Soul Hackers; I am debating rather or not to get Strange Journey, on the one hand I really like the old first-person games in the series but on the other I keep hearing so many horror tales about the dungeon layouts.
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Jan 8, 2013 02:43
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asvodel posted:I guess I will be shelling out for a 3DS for SMT4 and also Soul Hackers; I am debating rather or not to get Strange Journey, on the one hand I really like the old first-person games in the series but on the other I keep hearing so many horror tales about the dungeon layouts. The dungeon layouts do get a little insane after a certain point in Strange Journey, but don't let that stop you. The game is very good, you just might want to keep a map open after a few areas to save some frustration.
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Jan 8, 2013 02:48
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Last time I fought Matador the demi fiend killed him on a counter and it was loving great. I hope SMT4 gets as surreal as Nocturne did.
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Jan 8, 2013 03:04
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King of Solomon posted:The dungeon layouts do get a little insane after a certain point in Strange Journey, but don't let that stop you. The game is very good, you just might want to keep a map open after a few areas to save some frustration. A little insane? SJ's dungeons make Phantasy Star II look like an exercise in restraint.
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Jan 8, 2013 03:57
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SJ's dungeons are really easy with the exception of a few spots, namely the teleporter mazes and a few of the dark zones. Honestly the game is more tedious and boring than difficult, in general. They're harder than the dungeons in a lot of other recent FP-RPGs though, Etrian Odyssey included (which never gets even remotely hard until the last stratum, if then). But I'd say even Nocturne had harder dungeons than SJ did. Gwyrgyn Blood fucked around with this message at 04:32 on Jan 8, 2013 |
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Jan 8, 2013 04:28
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I'm playing DDS for the first time, and I'm wondering what a good way to build Serph is? I'm bad at making these decisions on my own. e: I suppose a better question would be is there any builds that aren't really viable? Is it like DS1 where well-rounded or Strength builds aren't as good, or is dumping most of your points into either Magic or Strength okay, or is being well-rounded viable? Cake Attack fucked around with this message at 07:29 on Jan 8, 2013 |
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Jan 8, 2013 07:26
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Cake Attack posted:I'm playing DDS for the first time, and I'm wondering what a good way to build Serph is? I'm bad at making these decisions on my own. As long as you don't try something stupid like a Luck-focused build you'll be fine. Just remember that each character should be put on the mantra path for the elemental magic they're weak to so they can eventually unlock the Resist: Element skills.
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Jan 8, 2013 07:57
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I just put my points into VIT STR and MAG every level and still managed to do pretty well, so you can do a well rounded one and still beat the game pretty easily.
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Jan 8, 2013 08:04
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