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Seems likely, Rand has seriously misused the Black Tower the whole time, particularly since it's rise coincided with Rand's fall into madness and paranoia. Whenever advice or help was offered, he saw dangers at every turn. Throw in the abuse Logain went through, capture, gentling, the more he dealt with Aes Sedai, the worse it was. Then he was Healed and joined Rand...only to get no better treatment, well intentioned advice discarded. When he went back to try and save the Black Tower, all he could find was his men being forcibly turned to the Shadow, himself captured and tortured for the same. We could see he is proud and arrogant from the start, but he also cares for his men. There's good to him, he just gave up.
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Jan 11, 2013 06:10
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Re: The Dragon prophecies - endgame! I actually felt really satisfied by them. They're these grand, somewhat ambiguous proclamations that sound so much more profound as prophecy. Several end up a bit mundane but still factually true. That's the beauty of it. Alivia helps the Dragon Reborn die by giving him the resources to move on and live a simple life as a regular man. It's a dovetail, not a story in of itself.Bluedust posted:Seriously a past poster was totally right with this: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1lg9s_dire-straits-brothers-in-arms-origi_music#.UO99pW8dx8F That's me. 
isk fucked around with this message at 08:26 on Jan 11, 2013 |
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Jan 11, 2013 08:17
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loving Lan and Loial. Goddamn I read almost all of the book on my car trip down, when night fell I took out my phone and turned on the flashlight until the battery died. When darkness fell, light still prevailed  What a fantastic ending to my favorite series. More discussion to follow, but at least I'm caught up with the thread now!
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Jan 11, 2013 08:39
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I had a good chuckle at Sanderson's little insertion of "just shut the hell up about boob plate, you damned nerds."
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Jan 11, 2013 09:08
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It's particularly notable to me that without Moiraine, Rand'd have failed at the Fields of Merilor. Breaking the seals prematurely, having personal command of the armies OR failing to establish the Dragon's Peace, along with a unified field commander were the likely outcomes. If Rand got his way completely(which might happen anyway because of his sheer presence at that point) Breaking the Seals early, the Dark One's influence would have wrecked the world, as Rand failed to anticipate the different flow of time within. By the time his psychic wrestling was over, the Dark One would have already ruined the armies beyond repair, considering the Windfinders with the Bowl barely held against the weather as it were. Leading the armies in person, Rand would be exhausted and depleted, fighting a commander who knew exactly how he would wage war, not to mention he could ill afford a personal duel with both Demandred, Taim and the Dark One in rapid succession, as well as being exposed to the efforts of Graedal and Lanfear on an open field. He'd have been overstretched and broken. Without her interpretation of the Prophecies, the nations might have decided to call Rand's bluff. They'd fight the Shadow as they had in the past, alone. And they'd fall alone. Without the Dragon's Peace, there is hardly any incentive for the Seanchan to sign up. They want stability even as they plan for war, so that they can consolidate and recapture Seandar, without the assurance, their best bet was to conquer the Westlands. Fighting individually meanwhile, is folly. The Shadow nearly subverted the war effort as it was, without a central command figure, the armies could be turned against each other, rather than merely wasted. And lastly, she was one of the few he could trust unreservedly to take into the Bore, who isn't needed as a leader in the war itself. Strength in the power had nothing to do with it.
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Jan 11, 2013 09:21
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I must have missed it, but did we ever see Dobraine?
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Jan 11, 2013 10:10
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The Midniter posted:Deaths I was surprised to see: She can finally say she has no toh. fraidykat posted:I guess I just read Logain's moment differently than some people, as I found it quite powerful. I believe that he declared himself for altruistic reasons, rather than the selfish motivations of one such as Taim. His reward for this was scorn, persecution and unspeakable mental anguish. Even more, the one man he thought could provide him with a better life and an opportunity to use his gifts for good favored his eminently selfish rival and abandoned him to Taim's machinations. Despite all of that, just knowing that his efforts led to the common folk accepting his chandlers as a force for good (and even referring to Saidin as "the talent" rather than "the curse") was enough to turn him from a path of selfishly seeking power onto one where his Black Tower will a driving force behind a new Age of Legends. That's how I look at it, at least. Logain has Chandlers now? Well I suppose there would be a massive shortage of candles, so an army of chandlers would have an important role to play in the world. The Lord Bude fucked around with this message at 14:20 on Jan 11, 2013 |
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Jan 11, 2013 14:13
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The Lord Bude posted:She can finally say she has no toh. No, just an army of men running around shouting "Could I BE any more tainted?"
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Jan 11, 2013 14:24
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The Lord Bude posted:She can finally say she has no toh. I'm not even going to edit it...I like the idea of a Black Tower army running around with ridiculous lampshade helms...
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Jan 11, 2013 17:09
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The Lord Bude posted:She can finally say she has no toh.
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Jan 11, 2013 17:33
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The Lord Bude posted:She can finally say she has no toh. The way I figure it Rand could jesus mode her into having everything working again with no scarring. I mean now that he IS Jesus and can think the pattern to whatever he wants, fixing her legs shouldnt be too hard for him
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Jan 11, 2013 17:46
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My Friend Radio posted:The longest setup for a pun in the history of the world. Holy poo poo, I bet you that was intentional. Ridiculous.
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Jan 11, 2013 17:49
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fraidykat posted:I guess I just read Logain's moment differently than some people, as I found it quite powerful. I believe that he declared himself for altruistic reasons, rather than the selfish motivations of one such as Taim. His reward for this was scorn, persecution and unspeakable mental anguish. Even more, the one man he thought could provide him with a better life and an opportunity to use his gifts for good favored his eminently selfish rival and abandoned him to Taim's machinations. Despite all of that, just knowing that his efforts led to the common folk accepting his chandlers as a force for good (and even referring to Saidin as "the talent" rather than "the curse") was enough to turn him from a path of selfishly seeking power onto one where his Black Tower will a driving force behind a new Age of Legends. That's how I look at it, at least. The way I read Logain's "glory" is that it's mostly still to come. The bit at the end was just Logain's version of Rand's mountaintop moment.
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Jan 11, 2013 17:49
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I may have missed this as I finished the book while quite tired, but did we ever find out who Nakomi, the mysterious woman Aviendha met on the way to Rhuidean in Towers of Midnight, was supposed to be? She seems to be referenced at the start of the epilogue also as the grey haired Aiel woman who says something to Rand as he collapses after leaving the pit.
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Jan 11, 2013 18:41
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My Friend Radio posted:The longest setup for a pun in the history of the world. ...how the gently caress did I miss that pun.
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Jan 11, 2013 18:56
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Lurching, bloodied from the sword strike to his side, the last king of the Malkieri stumbled to his feet. Lan thrust his hand into the air, holding by its hair the head of Demandred, general of the Shadow's armies. This was worth the wait. I've been reading these books since I was ten, and holy gently caress does it ever pay off. I'm still shaken. I think I might spend the next week rereading the entire series. Bluedust posted:Seriously a past poster was totally right with this: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1lg9s_dire-straits-brothers-in-arms-origi_music#.UO99pW8dx8F Yes. This. Definitely this.
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Jan 11, 2013 19:06
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The way I read Logain's "glory" is that it's mostly still to come. The bit at the end was just Logain's version of Rand's mountaintop moment. That's pretty much how I read it, too; I think that we might have heard more about it in the outrigger novels, though, since I'm sure the first Mat and Tuon one wouldn't have opened with them sailing back to Seandar, but either way a lot of things weren't really 'resolved' because it wasn't (spoiler)'s story, it was Rand's.
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Jan 11, 2013 19:50
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How are u posted:I had a good chuckle at Sanderson's little insertion of "just shut the hell up about boob plate, you damned nerds." Is this in reference to Mat wondering about whether female soldiers have different armor?
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Jan 11, 2013 19:57
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GO gently caress YOURSELF posted:Is this in reference to Mat wondering about whether female soldiers have different armor? Elayne got boobplate for her personal bodyguards. Mat presumably had seen some.
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Jan 11, 2013 20:11
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I like the way the different flow of time is used to have rands struggle, the battle at shayol ghul, and the battle for the entire world takes place at the same time. Also, mat finally gets to be awesome again!
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Jan 11, 2013 20:18
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Oh man, words can't describe how much I loved this book. I don't think I can be happier or more satisfied. I don't think a book has ever jerked as many tears as this one did. I'm so happy.
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Jan 11, 2013 20:47
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Not spoilering this, but Rand and Mat's back-and-forth? Funny as hell.
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Jan 11, 2013 21:42
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JohnnyCanuck posted:Not spoilering this, but Rand and Mat's back-and-forth? Funny as hell. Good thing you're not saying that on Dragonmount, or else you'd get "People don't talk like that in Randland! Sanderson ruined the characters with that one conversation"! I thought their meeting was hilarious though. Lots of great funny moments in the book to go along with the emotional stuff.
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Jan 11, 2013 21:57
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GO gently caress YOURSELF posted:Is this in reference to Mat wondering about whether female soldiers have different armor? Yea, he asks a Seanchan armorsmith why the guy can't add some nice curves to the women's breastplates and the guy looks at him like he's god damned retarded. Love it. Not really a spoiler in any way. How are u fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Jan 11, 2013 |
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Jan 11, 2013 22:03
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Finished last night. Hard to put it all into words, but I think exquisite works well. Regarding deaths: not a single one seemed out of place or poorly done, to me. Some were completely unexpected, but every single one of them was done well and didn't leave me feeling empty.JohnnyCanuck posted:Not spoilering this, but Rand and Mat's back-and-forth? Funny as hell. Probably my favorite interaction in the series
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Jan 11, 2013 22:24
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ScanMan posted:I may have missed this as I finished the book while quite tired, but did we ever find out who Nakomi, the mysterious woman Aviendha met on the way to Rhuidean in Towers of Midnight, was supposed to be? She seems to be referenced at the start of the epilogue also as the grey haired Aiel woman who says something to Rand as he collapses after leaving the pit. No I don't think so, I was wondering the exact same thing. One simple but not well thought idea is that she could have been an avatar of the creator similar to Shaidar Haran but that seems off as the whole idea is that the creator doesn't get involved (or that's what I thought). Otherwise I don't actually have any other ideas besides her just being exactly what she seemed, some sort of Cadsuane type Wise One who was totally unknown but very wise in the prophecies or something.
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Jan 11, 2013 22:43
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I've heard a theory that it was Lanfear, but I haven't seen any evidence to back that up.
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Jan 11, 2013 22:47
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After reading ToM I assumed Nakomi was a member of the Jenn Aiel, and they really hadn't died out. I didn't even notice her in MoL. I need to reread "The Last Battle" and epilogue again.
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Jan 11, 2013 22:48
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nopants posted:After reading ToM I assumed Nakomi was a member of the Jenn Aiel, and they really hadn't died out. I didn't even notice her in MoL. I need to reread "The Last Battle" and epilogue again. I believe Avidendha brings her up at one point, asking the other Wise Ones if they knew who she was when she told them about the visions. They had no idea. No other clue who's she's supposed to be.
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Jan 11, 2013 22:52
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There's a very popular theory that Nakomi is Verin.
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Jan 11, 2013 22:53
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keiran_helcyan posted:There's a very popular theory that Nakomi is Verin. Okay, that makes even less sense than Lanfear.
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Jan 11, 2013 23:17
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JohnnyCanuck posted:Okay, that makes even less sense than Lanfear. Lanfear is certainly dead by the time Nakomi(presumably) talks to Rand after Shayol Ghul. On the other hand, when Nakomi talks to Aviendha in ToM, Verin has yet to die in Tar Valon. Timeline fuckery! However, the wise old Aiel woman was certainly out and about during the Heroes' mop-up at Shayol Ghul. Given what we know of Heroes and reincarnation and such, Verin would have had to be dead by the time Nakomi showed up to visit Aviendha if Nakomi was Verin, but as a freshly deceased Hero Verin would probably have appeared as Verin. Lanfear had not been dead at the time Nakomi first showed up but was dead by the time she showed up again. Either way probably eliminates Verin and Lanfear both as candidates. However you can probably posit with reasonable support that Nakomi is a Hero of the Horn. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Jan 12, 2013 |
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Jan 12, 2013 00:19
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One thing I was kind of gratified to find out is that we do find out Masema was being manipulated by the Aes Sedai, though Annoura and the other two turn out NOT to have been Black Ajah, just playing both sides to try to extract maximum perceived advantage and Masema like the last time somebody tried to use him (Nynaeve) went completely off the chain.
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Jan 12, 2013 00:29
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JohnnyCanuck posted:Okay, that makes even less sense than Lanfear. Apparently a lot of the phrases from her conversation with Aviendha (regarding the Aiel and their purpose) closely match what Verin was told by an Aiel way back in The Great Hunt.
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Jan 12, 2013 01:04
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I think the best part of the Last Battle was the appearance of the Hinderstap villagers at the dam
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Jan 12, 2013 01:46
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I finished it up in a marathon session last night: I'm so happy Lan didn't die. I thought for sure he would and he's such an awesome character, although I was hoping it would be Galad or Logaine who killed Demandred. Tam al'Thor really shined in this book, he was a giant badass in every scene and his POV with the flame/void shooting arrows at the Trollocs was awesome and was some really good writing. I really didn't like Egwene's death. I suppose it was needed for the dramatic effect on Rand and his "Let go" revelation, but it was just really jarring to get through 99% of the series with no deaths to the EotW characters we all know and love, then have the one who's pretty much the female protagonist die with ~ 100 pages to go in the series. I really liked her character arc especially over the last three or four books but maybe I'm in the minority there. Why did Bela have to die  Fain was pretty lame. After Book 2 or so he seemed pretty unnecessary and really poorly integrated into the series. I think he either needed to play a much bigger role (give him the Slayer role or something) or just killed off nine or ten books ago. Epilogue: I found it really unsatisfying was hoping for more here after 20+ years and 14 700+ page books. Maybe I just felt bad for Rand going off all alone and away from his friends and loved ones, even if it's not permanent. It would have been nice if it closed with the girls and/or Mat+Perrin sneaking off and meeting up with him down the road. Or maybe just Rand and Tam, that would have been really touching too. Ross fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Jan 12, 2013 |
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Jan 12, 2013 01:48
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Ross posted:Epilogue: I found it really unsatisfying was hoping for more here after 20+ years and 14 700+ page books. Maybe I just felt bad for Rand going off all alone and away from his friends and loved ones, even if it's not permanent. It would have been nice if it closed with the girls and/or Mat+Perrin sneaking off and meeting up with him down the road. Or maybe just Rand and Tam, that would have been really touching too. I agree with you on that, another 20-50 pages would have been really nice, more info on rand, and a bit of an overview about how badly the entire world is hosed after potential changes due to the reimprisonment.
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Jan 12, 2013 02:07
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How has nobody brought up the fact that at the end Rand cannot channel but somehow wills his pipe to be lit? I may have missed something or misread but that confused the crap out of me. I really wish it had a better (or extant) epilogue. It was a pretty wild ride of characters being badasses so I can't complain. Nynaeve was a little boring but I feel like most characters had their place in the spotlight of being awesome. I started reading these things at least 10 years ago and have read some of them multiple times. I'll admit I stopped paying too much attention basically from book 10 onwards so some of the plot was a little confusing for me. There were a lot of characters that I had spotty memory of (I barely remember most of the wise ones/aes sedai) but it was pretty easy to follow despite the fact that every bit character from the series had to be included.
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Jan 12, 2013 02:40
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God I fucking love Diablo 3 gold, it even paid for this shitty title
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pogothemonkey0 posted:How has nobody brought up the fact that at the end Rand cannot channel but somehow wills his pipe to be lit? I may have missed something or misread but that confused the crap out of me. I really wish it had a better (or extant) epilogue. I assume that the One Power still exists or else the other channelers would have been going apeshit. It seems to me either Rand created a new Power by merging the Saidar/Saidin/TP (there was a line that hinted at this near the end, the text called it the Power or something like that), or that Rand now has Creater/Dark One-like powers himself. Along the same lines, what is the significance of the single saa in Rand's eye at the end? Residue from Moridin? Dark One is trapped inside Rand? Rand himself is the Dark One now? Ross fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Jan 12, 2013 |
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Jan 12, 2013 02:52
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Ross posted:Epilogue: I found it really unsatisfying was hoping for more here after 20+ years and 14 700+ page books. Maybe I just felt bad for Rand going off all alone and away from his friends and loved ones, even if it's not permanent. It would have been nice if it closed with the girls and/or Mat+Perrin sneaking off and meeting up with him down the road. Or maybe just Rand and Tam, that would have been really touching too. The problem with the other characters sneaking off too is they all have people depending on them and can't just disappear from the next age, while the Dragon's job is done.
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Jan 12, 2013 03:11
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