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yaoi prophet posted:Can you come up with one good reason why trickster mode would make someone white that isn't racist in and of itself? It is racist, yes. I'm not going to argue that. But the kids are still aracial.
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Jan 12, 2013 10:07
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This is Hussie saying, “Here is what a Caucasian character looks like, and here is a pasty white Homestuck avatar. Here they are together so you know the difference.” Jane has either become - Caucasian - or More Caucasian based on how you feel about the character's races. This is a defense of his own argument, as well as a liberation of the notion that all the characters are actually certifiably Caucasion, which is a good thing for those who entertain the notion of the characters being other races. And it's also hilarious.
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Jan 12, 2013 10:08
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The absolute best way to complete this joke is to reveal that Jake was confused about seeing Jane in the state she's in not because she's in Trickster Mode per se, but because she's actually black normally. He manages to continue having the moral high ground while being snarky and enraging the other side of tumblr. This is funny but there is a brigade of idiots who are using this to say "See, non-whites, you don't get to cosplay as Trickster Jane anymore because you don't have the proper skin colour! God, I love being white!" and that revelation would send them into a frothing rage immediately after it would look like he's pandering to them if you squint. This would probably have some negative impact down the line considering how aggressive he was in explaining how the kids are aracial, though. Such is life!
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Jan 12, 2013 10:08
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FutureSushi posted:Have you ever been to Tumblr because this sounds like the same strawman bullshit that everyone spews about Tumblr. Yes, I could even link you to my tumblr but I don't think that would help anything even. If I didn't have a tumblr and didn't see that kind of stuff all the time it wouldn't bother me. Though I will say at least in most of the people I follow (and/or who they reblog) that kind of language has toned down over the last few months. My personal thoughts on this is that Jane looks really creepy without the monochrome black and white.
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Jan 12, 2013 10:09
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Just gotta point out: trickster mode made Jane white. Which implies she wasn't before. Not sure how I feel about it, though, honestly. It's funny but not in a clever way and the Tumblr-baiting is starting to get old.
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Jan 12, 2013 10:09
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MrBims posted:It is racist, yes. I'm not going to argue that. But the kids are still aracial. So if it's racist, then why is this thread circlejerking it up about how oh my god those tumblr weirdos are so upset over nothing?
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Jan 12, 2013 10:10
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Speaking as someone who found all of the other times Hussie make a joke at the expense of Tumblrers humorous, I found this to be profoundly unfunny. He didn't need to call attention to this in the story.
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Jan 12, 2013 10:12
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JULIAN ASSANGE posted:It's funny but not in a clever way and the Tumblr-baiting is starting to get old. This is basically how I feel about it, all in all. I'm just kind of exhausted with Tumblr and SJWs as strawmen in general because I'm a user of Tumblr with friends who are socially conscious who raise issues in a full respectful manner but they get lumped with the people who... well... don't. And this wouldn't be an issue if only those people (the SJWs if you will) were targeted but instead it's always a blanket statement that targets anyone who would raise an issue more often than not. But like, with Kankri I could at least see the intent (despite still being annoyed at Hussie turning trigger warnings into a punchline) but here it feels more like the aracial thing was an appeasement he never really intended to commit to.
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Jan 12, 2013 10:14
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JULIAN ASSANGE posted:Just gotta point out: trickster mode made Jane white. Which implies she wasn't before. Well, you can also take Jake's "NOOOOOOOOOOO" as, uh, the loss of the possibility that the aracial Jane could be Blue.
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Jan 12, 2013 10:16
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FutureSushi posted:but here it feels more like the aracial thing was an appeasement he never really intended to commit to. I never really thought this way about it personally, but I keep thinking of it in a technical way rather than a biological one. They basically have a null race. #FFFFFF thus why even in this update a color swatch was selected. The exact color of things has always been very intentional, which was even brought up in-universe during the Hussie-Caliborn chat/guide/thing.
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Jan 12, 2013 10:17
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Watch as tomorrow he changes caucasian to "Ÿü§µß" or whatever he did last time to Dave and it's just written off as Jane yelling jibberish.
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Jan 12, 2013 10:17
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piemanmoo posted:Watch as tomorrow he changes caucasian to "Ÿü§µß" or whatever he did last time to Dave and it's just written off as Jane yelling jibberish. Oh yeah, I forgot about that. John calls Bro a "white guy who is a rapper with a ventriloquist doll", nobody cares until Hussie does the whole aracial defense and people go 'uh that's not what you said here' (also when John calls babies 'little pink monkeys'). He changes 'white' and 'pink' to gibberish, then later changes it back. Which, incidentally proves that the whole 'aracial' thing is also bullshit.
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Jan 12, 2013 10:18
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Yeah, I don't really know how to feel about this update, beyond the initial surprise factor. Just everything hussie says about race just makes it worse and worse, especially with the "I know everything" tone he takes. I don't think he ever meant to imply that there is only one right way to draw/cosplay a character, but just everything surrounding race in this comic is just a huge loving mess, not helped by the fact hussie says something different each time this comes up.
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Jan 12, 2013 10:18
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Hmm, serious discussion for a second here (by which I mean stupid rear end theorycrafting). Assuming this latest page is 'real', then it reminds me of Areana's conversation with Terzei about choice and Aradia's attempts to circumvent paradox space with randomness. With Aranea, she told Terzei "AG: You know very well the channels of possi8ility at that exact juncture resulted from her decision paths as well as yours. AG: 8ut even so, when it comes to your key decisions, the possi8ilities are pro8a8ly fewer and more discrete than you have presumed. AG: Otherwise you would not see results consolidated into those vortices, would you? Possi8ility would resem8le an enormous hazy field of infinitely su8tle variations and micro-choices. AG: Imagine if at that moment you truly were capa8le of anything, no matter how outlandish, a8surd, or patently fruitless. How would this vast amount of information present itself to you through your senses? What difference would it make in your final decision if all other tri8utaries of whim spilled into the same decaying future?" To me, this is Aranea saying that there aren't infinite beta timelines because there are only a limited number of things people will do in any situation. When John found Rose sleeping at her house after they both entered, there isn't a single beta reality where he murdered her in her sleep because that's out of character. Then of course there's the fact that the course of events are set and paradox space holds an inscrutable grip on what will happen in the alpha timeline. Aradia tried to get around this by being so random it would throw paradox space for a loop. "AA: maybe if i behave in a manner s0 rand0m AA: parad0x space w0nt kn0w h0w t0 handle it! AA: blah BL00P blee BLUH!@#$%^&*()_+ AA: didnt see that 0ne c0ming did y0u pspace??? + ?*rand(413^612)" Of course her attempts at randomness weren't really that random and made sense for her. They were accounted for within the plan of paradox space. My thought is that Trickster Mode is such random crazy rear end bullshit, that it exists outside the plan of the alpha timeline. After this Causasian remark, the Alpha Jane could literally do anything at this point. She could murder her best friends in their sleep. She could get some bongos out and start playing. She could engage in masterful 4th wall trolling of the Homestuck fanbase (wait, too late!). Whatever she does will be completely batshit off the wall unpredictable. This could be the way in which the plans of paradox space are circumvented, by making any kind of action, thought or feeling a possibility due to Trickster mode with the power of the juju keeping it within the alpha timeline. It's also possible this has something to do with Gamzee's importance. He is basically all about inscrutable clown juggalo bullshit for no apparent reason. Or to put it another way: "And you never know what they're (Clowns) up to, and they're always scheming in the shadows, and it's quite possible that whatever master plan they're hatching just doesn't make the slightest bit of sense at all."
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Jan 12, 2013 10:20
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piemanmoo posted:Watch as tomorrow he changes caucasian to "Ÿü§µß" or whatever he did last time to Dave and it's just written off as Jane yelling jibberish. That'd be Íæûë€Å. I found myself trying to pronounce it, but I stopped when I realized that success would probably mean summoning some manner of eldritch being.
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Jan 12, 2013 10:20
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Remember that Hussie's previous position was "You shouldn't necessarily interpret these #ffffff characters as caucasian, and if you do maybe you're the racist." Considering how overly defensive he was about it back then, it's kind of questionable to follow that up with "Haha yeah never mind I guess she's white (right now), quit whining." He really doesn't have the leverage to say "You took this too seriously."
Supercar Gautier fucked around with this message at 10:29 on Jan 12, 2013 |
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Jan 12, 2013 10:24
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The longer I have to react to it, the less I like this update, and my feelings were damned confused to begin with. See, I thought Hussie's tweet about Trickster Mode making you white was really funny and putting it in the comic absolutely killed the joke. It actually manages to retroactively makes all the previous Tumblr jokes less funny. Is there any way to make this update plot-relevant without being astoundingly racist? Andrew Hussie should never ever bring up race again ever. He also needs to chill the gently caress out and stop being so defensive. JULIAN ASSANGE fucked around with this message at 10:30 on Jan 12, 2013 |
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Jan 12, 2013 10:24
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Supercar Gautier posted:Remember that Hussie's previous position was "You shouldn't necessarily interpret these #ffffff characters as caucasian, and if you do maybe you're the racist." Considering how overly defensive he was about it back then, it's kind of dumb to follow that up with "Haha yeah never mind I guess she's white (right now), quit whining." In Trickster Mode she's no longer #FFFFFF though. There's an actual interpretation to be made. Just like Grimdark Rose is/was no longer #FFFFFF.
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Jan 12, 2013 10:25
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See, I love this because both sides are acting like completely morons. Tumblr gets super mad and defensive about a webcomic, and Hussie's grasp on how to handle racial issues is about as solid as a lake. Two idiots are fighting, and I'm over here absorbing all this schadenfreude like they were sun rays and I'm trying to get a tan.
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Jan 12, 2013 10:25
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JULIAN ASSANGE posted:The longer I have to react to it, the less I like this update, and my feelings were damned confused to begin with. See, I thought Hussie's tweet about Trickster Mode making you white was really funny and putting it in the comic absolutely killed the joke. Is there any way to make this update plot-relevant without being astoundingly racist? It actually manages to retroactively makes all the previous Tumblr jokes less funny. That's exactly how I feel. I thought the tweet was amusing too, but I cannot think of a joke in Homestuck I found less funny than this. EDIT: it's a shame too because the panel before with Erisol flipping off Jake in the corner is actually great. nerdbot fucked around with this message at 10:31 on Jan 12, 2013 |
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Jan 12, 2013 10:29
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If there's one thing that DOESN'T happen in Homestuck, it's throwing random poo poo into the plot without overly explaining it. So in other words, I wouldn't be surprised if at some point, what Jane said just now is explained in some ridiculous manner making the entire argument completely moot.
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Jan 12, 2013 10:30
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nerdbot posted:EDIT: it's a shame too because the panel before with Erisol flipping off Jake in the corner is actually great. ...What? poo poo, I didn't even notice that.
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Jan 12, 2013 10:32
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thanks alot assbag posted:If there's one thing that DOESN'T happen in Homestuck, it's throwing random poo poo into the plot without overly explaining it. I wouldn't be surprised if Jake doesn't know what Caucasian is, thus extending this conversation longer. Not finding it funny is pretty valid though, I'm only finding the reaction kind of funny, the panels itself fall really flat for me. Edit: If Jake gets hit with the juju, it could be '> Make Him Pasty' and I'd laugh at that though. Comic fucked around with this message at 10:37 on Jan 12, 2013 |
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Jan 12, 2013 10:33
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thanks alot assbag posted:If there's one thing that DOESN'T happen in Homestuck, it's throwing random poo poo into the plot without overly explaining it. Hopefully. Hussie's still being ridiculously over-the-top defensive about something that honestly would never have been a major issue if he weren't so defensive about it in the first place. Dude's trying way too hard to prove he wasn't being a racist and how dare you bring up race as an issue! Seriously, how long ago did this first come up? Give it a rest. JULIAN ASSANGE fucked around with this message at 10:40 on Jan 12, 2013 |
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Jan 12, 2013 10:37
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JULIAN ASSANGE posted:Hussie's still being ridiculously over-the-top defensive about something that honestly would never have been a major issue if he weren't so defensive about it in the first place. Dude's trying way too hard to prove he wasn't being a racist and how dare you bring up race as an issue?? Exactly. I think that if he'd just said 'whoops, yeah, they're all white but you can draw/cosplay them as whatever race you want!' a while ago people wouldn't be as upset. Sure, it's annoying to have yet another story where all the characters are white, but it's common. It wouldn't be as bad as this clusterfuck.
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Jan 12, 2013 10:40
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I can understand why people would be curious about the lack of racial diversity, but when the characters were stated to be aracial after race already having been mentioned, it just looks like backtracking and exacerbates the issue. The people who are angry in the first place feel like they are justified in being angry because they see his going back as some sort of admission of guilt. Bro's stated to be a white rapper (which got changed and then changed back) so canonically Dirk is white, and the ancestors/descendants situation means Dave is as well, which most likely implies that Rose and Roxy are also. I feel like none of this had been an issue to begin with if instead of Hussie going "Oh no, they don't have any races", he had just said "The kids are white, but why does that even matter? If you want to, imagine them any way you want." No matter what, tumblr is always going to bitch about something, but at this point Hussie's basically jumping into the bull pen and waving his arms around and pretending to be a matador. Except the bull is just a bunch of angry teenagers and (I would hope) that most other readers wouldn't have to be babied about what color a character's skin was. Aside from the context for jokes about lovely white rappers, it just. Doesn't. Matter. Just because something is assigned a quality in homestuck doesn't mean that that variable means anything. edit: fb. 
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Jan 12, 2013 10:42
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It would be very stupid if Hussie were using this whole major development, involving the acquisition of jujus and the resurrection of LOCAH, to snipe at a long-dormant overblown pointless fandom controversy, and that's exactly why I'm certain that isn't what's happening. Trickster Mode was originally an easter egg. Non-canon, irreverent, illogical, fourth-wall-breaking, with absolutely no bearing on anything. I think that the same thing is happening here: Trickster Mode is a way to do silly things that don't "count" - put another way, to escape the alpha timeline. I want it to be over, because this is going to be unpleasant to talk about until it goes where it's going.
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Jan 12, 2013 10:48
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Actually, I'd like to say that divorced from context CAUCASIAN.gif is a great image. It's a beautiful bystander gunned down by a mediocre joke.
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Jan 12, 2013 10:49
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Man this is all going to be hell of confusing for anyone reading it more than a year in the future.
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Jan 12, 2013 10:49
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Fister Roboto posted:Man this is all going to be hell of confusing for anyone reading it more than a year in the future. That could practically be the tagline for the entire comic, so it's really quite normal.
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Jan 12, 2013 10:50
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Sounds like you're putting too much importance in 'white rapper' as reflective of race instead of as someone who tries really hard but still isn't cool. Also by basically saying they're aracial he literally said they could be canonly whatever race you want them to be instead of just headcanonly. (Because the color of their skin doesn't matter thematically or aesthetically) If people weren't complaining about the skin color of trickster mode already the topic wouldn't have been addressed so blatantly in the comic itself. Which I'm sure also wouldn't be a thing if trickster mode hadn't previously already made the characters Caucasian and Hussie cares way more about accurate callbacks than any other fallout.
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Jan 12, 2013 10:50
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Comic posted:Sounds like you're putting too much importance in 'white rapper' as reflective of race instead of as someone who tries really hard but still isn't cool. I don't think John is really the type to dismissively call someone who isn't white "white" as an insult. That seems like kind of a deprecated thing to do generally, not to mention kind of racist in a few ways of itself.
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Jan 12, 2013 10:53
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I don't like it, Hussie's being a huge baby abou Tumblr again and not in a smart way.
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Jan 12, 2013 10:58
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Call Now posted:I don't like it, Hussie's being a huge baby abou Tumblr again and not in a smart way. Is there a smart way?
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Jan 12, 2013 10:59
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I'm reserving judgement on this until its over because plainly we aren't supposed to know what's going on. Yesterday's minigame update had people running back and forth trying to sift through all the non-canon silliness to try and find out what was actually happening behind it all. Today's update is totally insane as well, but in a VERY different way - it may potentially be for the same purpose though. Although goddamn I wish he hasn't done it just because whenever this argument comes up it just turns the thread into an everyone vs tumblr battle royale
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Jan 12, 2013 11:08
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Rooreelooo posted:Although goddamn I wish he hasn't done it just because whenever this argument comes up it just turns the thread into an everyone vs tumblr battle royale You are not alone in this regard.
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Jan 12, 2013 11:20
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Ya'll are super analyzing a white guy who wrote a comic, who is white. His main experience may be with whites. Then it became a weird issue in the fandom where being white was somehow an issue, though he was writing a story which is of course based on his experience. How meta is his humor? Is this story about jerking around the people that talk about it? Is it just what he knows? Is it one then the other? Is he going to lose fans now that he's made his million dollars doing what he was going to do anyway? Maybe Hussie is a white supremacist? Maybe he's exactly playing the game with his fans? Maybe he's so insensitive that he doesn't understand? What does it matter? He's writing the story and it's reactive and proactive to the reactions of his fans. I don't see the basis of people trying to call what he's doing as sensical. He's juked left and right a million times and the meta-narrative is based on reactions of his audience or maybe not. Either way, you're playing right into his clever or evil or ignorant hands.
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Jan 12, 2013 11:25
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I feel triggered guys. Hussie is calling Caucasians tricksters and I just can't stand for that. I'm appalled he would assume that all people of Caucasian descent are deceitful by nature and that becoming a "trickster" equates you with a particular skin tone. gently caress you Hussie. And the rainbows? You some kind of homophobe? And not all of us can even eat candy, thanks rear end in a top hat. Don't even get me started on Eternity's Shylock. I liked you, Hussie, and you treat me like this? gently caress. You.
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Jan 12, 2013 11:29
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I think the joke kind of works in the sense that Jake loves blue girls so of course he'd be like "nooooooo" if Jane wasn't blue. So I'm just going to interpret it like that and forget about the rest of this silliness on both sides. 
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Jan 12, 2013 11:40
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Supercar Gautier posted:Remember that Hussie's previous position was "You shouldn't necessarily interpret these #ffffff characters as caucasian, and if you do maybe you're the racist." Considering how overly defensive he was about it back then, it's kind of questionable to follow that up with "Haha yeah never mind I guess she's white (right now), quit whining." He really doesn't have the leverage to say "You took this too seriously." That happened a long loving time ago. I wouldn't be surprised if that whole terrible debacle happened well over a year ago. Prior to this update, pretty much everyone except the worst sort of people stopped giving a poo poo, and I'm sure a fair number (myself included) completely forgot that it happened. If this happened shortly after those events, I'd agree with you, but it simply did not. This isn't a follow-up to something that just happened. In fact, outside of tumblr freaking the gently caress out, I'd say this has nothing to do with that. This is Hussie cracking a joke about the way an absurdly silly thing changed the design of one of his characters. I mean gently caress, her hair is pink, her shirt completely changed color, and she has blue swirls on her cheek. This is not her normal look. EDIT: Agh, I feel like I shouldn't have posted this. Everything about this loving discussion is incredibly stupid. King of Solomon fucked around with this message at 11:57 on Jan 12, 2013 |
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Jan 12, 2013 11:46
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