|
Baalfrog posted:Biggest problem with FF IX is that there is only Ozma for the superbosses, why are there no others. Ozma is stupidly easy. The difference here is that while you can collect cards to break the game early, you also collect cards to make the game boring.
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2013 01:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 21, 2024 13:23 |
|
|
ImpAtom posted:There's a few others but they're nothing worthwhile. Hades barely is worth acknowledging. What about the friendly Yan huh? 
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2013 01:11
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:There's a few others but they're nothing worthwhile. Hades barely is worth acknowledging. The best thing about Hades is if you've already beaten Ozma by the time you confront him, he freaks out slightly at the prospect of having to fight you.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2013 01:12
|
|
|
Well, there's the optional boss Tantarian (or whatever his name is). I actually kinda like optional bosses scattered throughout the game where the rewards might actually be worth using, as opposed to superbosses where any rewards will be pointless (short of NG+ modes). Ozma CAN be hard- especially if you don't do the sidequest to weaken him and don't put all your attack inputs in during his attack animations. He's heavily luck-based, though.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2013 01:17
|
|
|
Speaking of not worthwhile sidequests, has anyone here tried to legitimately obtain Excalibur II? I'm confused as to why Square would even put that in, I honestly thought it was one of those "bring Aeris back to life" rumors. It just seems like you'd miss out on a ton of items and Steiner is incredibly strong by Memoria anyway.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2013 01:17
|
|
|
Baalfrog posted:Biggest problem with FF IX is that there is only Ozma for the superbosses, why are there no others. Ozma is stupidly easy. What? I'm still to beat Ozma without the friendly animals and without excessive grinding.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2013 01:18
|
|
|
Aureon posted:What? That's not challenge though, that's Standard JRPG Bullshit.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2013 01:20
|
|
|
The GIG posted:That's not challenge though, that's Standard JRPG Bullshit. gently caress keeping track of every goddamn single friendly animal i have met or not, and gently caress spending an hour on each of the 12 or so.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2013 01:29
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:There's a few others but they're nothing worthwhile. Hades barely is worth acknowledging. I wouldn't even count Hades or Tantarian as they are way easier than Ozma  .Aureon posted:gently caress keeping track of every goddamn single friendly animal i have met or not, and gently caress spending an hour on each of the 12 or so. Well the friendly animals give a crapload of AP so they are worth getting the first chance you get, but hunting them later is probably not so necessary. The friendly Yan gives you a Rosetta ring though, which is very valuable.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2013 01:32
|
|
|
Aureon posted:gently caress keeping track of every goddamn single friendly animal i have met or not, and gently caress spending an hour on each of the 12 or so. There's a trick to getting friendly creatures to show up really, really quickly. Same with Ragtime Mouse.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2013 01:33
|
|
|
Aureon posted:gently caress keeping track of every goddamn single friendly animal i have met or not, and gently caress spending an hour on each of the 12 or so. Gotta love obtuse crap to make things less obtuse.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2013 01:34
|
|
|
Twelve by Pies posted:Speaking of not worthwhile sidequests, has anyone here tried to legitimately obtain Excalibur II? I'm confused as to why Square would even put that in, I honestly thought it was one of those "bring Aeris back to life" rumors. It just seems like you'd miss out on a ton of items and Steiner is incredibly strong by Memoria anyway. It's a reward for speedrunners, I don't see the problem. It's possible to get Excalibur II and not miss anything.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2013 01:35
|
|
|
I don't like to think of Tantarian as optional, but that's just because the thought of playing through FF9 without auto-haste to speed up the combat is horrifying.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2013 02:51
|
|
|
Auto-haste of course reducing ATB times by about a second and a half  Its only real use is to speed the frequency of Regen considering the way the first-in-line battle system works.I'm not getting the criticism of Ozma being the only/biggest optional boss, it works perfectly within the game's mathematical scope. In terms of tactics, planning, and prep, it's what I imagine every SMT player ever asks for. It's a sprint, not a marathon; marathon bosses are horrible, lazy design decisions anyway.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2013 02:59
|
|
|
Was re-releasing FFVII for the PC just a desperate attempt to milk some more coin from the FFVII fan crowd or is there potential for them to give other FFs the same treatment? I know I could at least get VIII for the PC in its original form, but since I've progressed from Windows 98, one shudders to think of the headaches that would bring. Ultimately I would love a PC port of IX, legitimate at least. Unfortunately, out of the three PSOne FFs, that was the only one not to get ported to the PC originally. Which probably means between it and VIII, it doesn't have a great chance.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2013 03:35
|
|
|
The White Dragon posted:Auto-haste of course reducing ATB times by about a second and a half Well there is not much strategy involved. Equip every character with armor that nullifies/absorbs dark element, put some status immunities, get Eiko with mini, Quina with bunch of Remedies or just plain Remedy thing without Quina and don't attack while Ozma is standing still. If you ask me things like Emerald from VII and Omega from VIII are way better superbosses. Stuff from X is also pretty neat, but as you said they kinda packing way too much HP is lazy, even with the increased damage cap. Penance in particular is a pain to take down. gredgie posted:Was re-releasing FFVII for the PC just a desperate attempt to milk some more coin from the FFVII fan crowd or is there potential for them to give other FFs the same treatment? There were actually plans for PC release of IX but I think they cancelled it because PS2 was hiding behind the corner during the original PSX launch and the sales were kinda modest.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2013 03:43
|
|
|
The White Dragon posted:Auto-haste of course reducing ATB times by about a second and a half It's not really much of a sprint though is my problem. I never even really felt like I had to do a lot of prep for it. There are ways to make it ridiculously easy but even on its own it's kind of unimpressive. I don't hate it or anything, I just wish there was something a bit meatier besides it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2013 03:51
|
|
|
The White Dragon posted:
So what do you think of SMT superbosses like Hitoshura and Satan from the first Digital Devil Saga? They require lots of planning, but are also very long fights.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2013 04:28
|
|
|
I think pretty much any combat that can't be reasonably resolved in... poo poo, let's go 10 minutes max (because if you cheese it, you can actually beat Emerald Weapon in that time frame) is out of the question. Anything longer and it's like, yeah, you totally didn't inflate this guy's HP just for attrition.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2013 04:35
|
|
|
Baalfrog posted:Well there is not much strategy involved. Equip every character with armor that nullifies/absorbs dark element, put some status immunities, get Eiko with mini, Quina with bunch of Remedies or just plain Remedy thing without Quina and don't attack while Ozma is standing still. If you ask me things like Emerald from VII and Omega from VIII are way better superbosses. Stuff from X is also pretty neat, but as you said they kinda packing way too much HP is lazy, even with the increased damage cap. Penance in particular is a pain to take down. You don't have to do a ton of planning for Emerald or Omega Weapon either. Emerald can be beaten by spamming KotR or Omnislash -- Omega Weapon is broken by the time you play all of about fifteen minutes of Triple Triad.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2013 08:10
|
|
|
Mill Village posted:So what do you think of SMT superbosses like Hitoshura and Satan from the first Digital Devil Saga? They require lots of planning, but are also very long fights. To be honest I have not played SMT games. I know, shame on me .Azure_Horizon posted:You don't have to do a ton of planning for Emerald or Omega Weapon either. Emerald can be beaten by spamming KotR or Omnislash -- Omega Weapon is broken by the time you play all of about fifteen minutes of Triple Triad. Well Omega has his attack pattern and Gaia Break (or whatever) and Emerald has Materia storm, Final Attack and KotR cheeses that fight.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2013 14:44
|
|
|
Trance Kuja can still wreck you up if you queue things up too fast and are at a high level, if only because of his random Flare Star counterattacks.The White Dragon posted:I think pretty much any combat that can't be reasonably resolved in... poo poo, let's go 10 minutes max (because if you cheese it, you can actually beat Emerald Weapon in that time frame) is out of the question. Anything longer and it's like, yeah, you totally didn't inflate this guy's HP just for attrition. You must hate FFXII then. Hi Yiazmat, Hell Wyrm, Omega, Zodiark (and to an extent, Ultima and The Undying).
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2013 15:36
|
|
|
ApplesandOranges posted:You must hate FFXII then. Hi Yiazmat, Hell Wyrm, Omega, Zodiark (and to an extent, Ultima and The Undying). He makes a good point though. I think it is good that encounters test a player's ability to overcome a challenge that is repetitious to a point because that improves the odds that you won due to skill/strategy and not just luck. That plus it tests your ability to manage resources. However, there comes a point where the player passed the test and you are just kind of waiting around repeating whatever strat you put together until the boss's HP reaches zero. It stops being fun once that point is reached. Please note that this argument has little to do with the actual length of the encounter. I have experienced encounters in RPGs where I felt this problem exists starting at 10 minutes as well as only after 20 minutes has passed. It usually depends on how dynamic the encounter is as the battle progresses.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2013 15:45
|
|
|
ApplesandOranges posted:Trance Kuja can still wreck you up if you queue things up too fast and are at a high level, if only because of his random Flare Star counterattacks. Actually, probably the best way to kill Zodiark is a blitz that takes around a minute; he doesn't have that much health. Omega doesn't have that much either- it's a test of survival more than anything. Xavier434 posted:He makes a good point though. I think it is good that encounters test a player's ability to overcome a challenge that is repetitious to a point because that improves the odds that you won due to skill/strategy and not just luck. That plus it tests your ability to manage resources. However, there comes a point where the player passed the test and you are just kind of waiting around repeating whatever strat you put together until the boss's HP reaches zero. It stops being fun once that point is reached. Please note that this argument has little to do with the actual length of the encounter. I have experienced encounters in RPGs where I felt this problem exists starting at 10 minutes as well as only after 20 minutes has passed. It usually depends on how dynamic the encounter is as the battle progresses. Yeah, this is true if the battle doesn't change. But not so much when the battle has different stages / different attack patterns. Like Ultima in XII that was mentioned by the previous poster- that battle is constantly changing due to the shifting field effects, so it tests your ability to constantly change your strategy. Even bosses that just change their own attack pattern or pace keep you changing things up. That's actually why XII is one of my favorites in the series- the bosses/marks change it up as they get closer to death, leading to some intense battles. This even applies to the much-maligned Palings some bosses use- it forces you to switch from offense to defense, or physical attacks to magic attacks, so that you can't just blitz every boss to death the same way. And while Yiazmat was entirely too long, you probably weren't using the same strategy at the end that you were at the beginning unless you just leveled to 99 with the best equipment.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2013 18:41
|
|
|
Exactly, if they're dynamic, the designer allows themselves some wiggle room. On the other hand, there's active-dynamic and static-dynamic, the former being, say, Gilgamesh from FF12 and the latter being Yiazmat. One changes strategies after about two to three minutes of doing damage; the other changes strategies after about two to three hours. Reasonably, even the most numerically-intimidating superboss should be based on a function of ((# of characters allowed in party - # of non-attackers) * (1...4 roundsa) * (number of strategic approaches in the battle)), assuming average optimized damage--which, in FF9, is 9999 since it can be reasonably expected, with proper planning, that everyone will do max damage every turn; in FF7, it was (((13*7777b) + (10*7777c) + (18*7777d) + ((13*7777)*n)))/(3+n))--n being the number of times you have to use Knights of the Round after burning your Limits--because you could expect the player to go in with All-7 Fever using the most efficient limit breaks. Some games, maybe the math is different because your monster's form requires you to take up a character's turn with healing or whatever. That way, no single "form" outstays its welcome and the battle continues to engage the player without having to resort to treadmill attrition. Emerald Weapon, after Lucky 7s and three limit breaks, has 200,000 HP, which is a Mimed Highwind plus a Knights, or two Knights from characters who are still on Lucky 7s. It's long in the sense that you sit there, but in terms of rounds, the two sides will get, like, two "real" rounds. Reasonably, they should've just made Lucky 7s not do the sixty-three attacks in the opener and just reduced its HP by half. But I guess at the time, they were thinking, "One million?! That's very psychologically intimidating." And it is! It's also way too much within their math's own parameters, because you almost certainly can't do everyone's limits twice in a row at 7777 damage. It still seems very intimidating because if you can't burn through the enemy's HP in a timely fashion, it's almost guaranteed to wipe your party, but like the Ozma example by Baalfrog, it's nice to allow your players a little leeway because clearly it's still beatable without a 100% damage output strategy. Optimally, you go in with Auto-Reflect on, open with Limit Glove/Dragon's Crest/Thievery/Dark Matter (or, if you finished the Friendly Monster quest, Ark is a guaranteed-9999 too) and ignore everything but Curse (which is usually TPK anyway) so you don't need to waste any turns on using Remedies or casting Angel's Snack. The math is a little too complex for me to crunch as far as your luck-based chance to win without doing the Friendly Monster quest (it's pretty severely reduced, though), but even that's possible. It's a 1.25 to 2-round-long battle, assuming three Curagas and you having finished the Friendly Monster quest. I'll always stick to my guns about Palings being the worst mechanic, though. If you want to give a boss a form where they make someone play defensively, don't make the boss recover %HP/sec while you're doing it. adefining "rounds" as "everyone in both parties acts once" bOmnislash cCatastrophe dHighwind Fur20 fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Jan 11, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2013 19:48
|
|
|
The White Dragon posted:I'll always stick to my guns about Palings being the worst mechanic, though. If you want to give a boss a form where they make someone play defensively, don't make the boss recover %HP/sec while you're doing it. Wait, what boss did this? I guess it's possible if a boss put on Regen before putting up a paling, but I don't remember any that would or could do that...
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2013 21:34
|
|
|
As far as I recall, it was like every single one of them. From the first time I saw a paling on... what was it, that airship where Ashe's so-obviously-traitorous-you'd-have-to-be-an-idiot-to-miss-it retainer to marks to Zeromus, it was a huge pain in the rear end because they'd just heal right back up if you let them drop that invincibility poo poo. It reached a point where enemies just ended up having enough HP to endure one of those chain limit things (which I could also never figure out and they seemed largely random whether they'd chain or not) where they'd be hanging on by a thread and start recovering up while they pounded me with their desperation attacks. The latter of which is fine. But it completely removes that layer of "so do I just go defensive and and plink away at what's left of its HP, or do I just go all-out and hope for the best" and replaces it with "oh I guess I'm gonna drop Phoenix Downs and switch party members until this Paling runs out. Five minute invincibility is super fun!" Fur20 fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Jan 11, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2013 21:44
|
|
|
Schwartzcough posted:Actually, probably the best way to kill Zodiark is a blitz that takes around a minute; he doesn't have that much health. Omega doesn't have that much either- it's a test of survival more than anything. That's only because they cut Omega's HP from 10 million to 1 million for the US release, and that was one of the best changes they could have made.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2013 21:55
|
|
|
The White Dragon posted:As far as I recall, it was like every single one of them. From the first time I saw a paling on... what was it, that airship where Ashe's so-obviously-traitorous-you'd-have-to-be-an-idiot-to-miss-it retainer to marks to Zeromus, it was a huge pain in the rear end because they'd just heal right back up if you let them drop that invincibility poo poo. Hmm, I think you're just misremembering. Neither boss you mentioned has a paling or any ability to heal. In fact, Zeromus is doing damage to himself every time he hits you for the first 50% of his health. A few bosses use Renew to heal huge amounts which is annoying, but I don't think any of those enemies have palings. It's possible some enemies start with Regen, but any enemies strong enough to start with buffs like that should be dispelled immediately, so I don't even remember. Edit: Also, I'd like to point out that Palings only stop physical attacks, and Magick Barrier only stops magic attacks, and VERY few enemies ever use both, and even fewer use both at the same time. Most of the time you just need to change what you're attacking with rather than stop doing damage at all. Schwartzcough fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Jan 11, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2013 21:56
|
|
|
The White Dragon posted:As far as I recall, it was like every single one of them. From the first time I saw a paling on... what was it, that airship where Ashe's so-obviously-traitorous-you'd-have-to-be-an-idiot-to-miss-it retainer to marks to Zeromus, it was a huge pain in the rear end because they'd just heal right back up if you let them drop that invincibility poo poo. Only boss I can think of off the top of my head that regen'd at an alarming rate was ol' Bomb King. That boss doesn't even use palings.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2013 21:58
|
|
|
The White Dragon posted:As far as I recall, it was like every single one of them. From the first time I saw a paling on... what was it, that airship where Ashe's so-obviously-traitorous-you'd-have-to-be-an-idiot-to-miss-it retainer to marks to Zeromus, it was a huge pain in the rear end because they'd just heal right back up if you let them drop that invincibility poo poo. That's really weird. I think you may be misremembering because I don't recall the boss working that way at all. Maybe I'm the one misremembering but that sounds like some bullshit I'd remember.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2013 22:03
|
|
|
Yeah, as far as I remember, FFXII didn't have any bosses like that. Especially not the guy you're talking about, who didn't use palings at all and wasn't capable of regenerating health. The only story boss that I remember using palings at all was the final boss, who wasn't capable of healing in any fashion either. gently caress, I'm reasonably sure that Regen doesn't even work off of a percentage in FFXII, so I have no idea what you're talking about at all. Arist fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Jan 11, 2013 |
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2013 22:11
|
|
|
MrAristocrates posted:gently caress, I'm reasonably sure that Regen doesn't even work off of a percentage in FFXII, so I have no idea what you're talking about at all. Actually I think it might, since I know if you run away from Yiazmat and hide where he can't reach you for too long, he'll cast regen on himself and regain health at a scary rate because of how much total HP he has. But he won't do that if he can target anyone, and he doesn't have palings. It's just supposed to prevent people from cheesing him by hiding and healing constantly.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2013 22:26
|
|
|
Well, all I remember is that the bosses weren't hard, but they were frustrating in that they felt really artificially inflated.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2013 22:28
|
|
|
I recently played FFXII and fought Hell Wyrm. Repetitive to the point of not being fun at all. He's quite easy if the party is at a decent level. The only hard part is enduring a long battle due to his huge amount of health. It basically boiled down to bash him with swords, heal/rebuff, repeat for probably 30+ minutes. How exactly is that fun?
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2013 00:48
|
|
|
The White Dragon posted:Well, all I remember is that the bosses weren't hard, but they were frustrating in that they felt really artificially inflated. You're completely right about that part. That's part of why I really disliked the Gambit system.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2013 00:52
|
|
|
I think I've posted about OCRemix here before, but since yall are talking about FF9 anyways, the FF9 album they're working on is coming closer and closer to fruition. I'm sure it's a year or two out still but they released a new preview a few days ago and drat does it own! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wt2kbau3T0 Still not sure how long to go on the FF6 album; that one had a huge Kickstarter fundraiser so I'm sure it'll be baller. I remember hearing December but... I'm not sure if that was 2012 or 2013 and I can't really check atm.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2013 13:30
|
|
|
I'm finally playing FFXIII-2 thanks to Black Friday. Overall I'm enjoying it, but I have a question about the combat - is there any reason to NOT use auto-battle? At first I thought I should manually select spells to discover enemy weaknesses, but I noticed that my ravager will automatically try out each type of element, then once the weaknesses are revealed, start using spells that the enemy is weak to. Aside from paradigm shifts to switch to sentinel for defense in boss fights, and the occasional pet switching and pet sync, most battles are just me mashing X to select auto-battle. I'm so used to RPG's requiring you to select each move individually, it feels like I'm playing this game "incorrectly".
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2013 17:56
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:That's really weird. I think you may be misremembering because I don't recall the boss working that way at all. Maybe I'm the one misremembering but that sounds like some bullshit I'd remember. No, TWD has shown over and over again that the FFXII that exists in his head and the actual game are two completely different properties. The game's boss/unique monsters' Palings, berserk modes, and the unavoidable party-wide super-attacks did get pretty tedious, though.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2013 17:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 21, 2024 13:23 |
|
|
Karthe posted:I'm finally playing FFXIII-2 thanks to Black Friday. Overall I'm enjoying it, but I have a question about the combat - is there any reason to NOT use auto-battle? At first I thought I should manually select spells to discover enemy weaknesses, but I noticed that my ravager will automatically try out each type of element, then once the weaknesses are revealed, start using spells that the enemy is weak to. Aside from paradigm shifts to switch to sentinel for defense in boss fights, and the occasional pet switching and pet sync, most battles are just me mashing X to select auto-battle. I'm so used to RPG's requiring you to select each move individually, it feels like I'm playing this game "incorrectly". i'm throughly thankful we don't get to smash X anymore, actually. The attacking roles do their knack quite well, on the other 4 you may (will) have to fiddle manually.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2013 18:03
|
|