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Do note that in EotW, Rand's original ambition is to be like Jain Farstrider and travel the world and see everything. Moridin's body is very suitable for that, entirely healthy, rather than Rand's effectively walking dead body. No distinguishing marks except for the eye, which is easy enough to overlook. No channeling ability, but if he gets in trouble the Pattern will make up for it. This basically means he could go just about anywhere, nobody would recognize him except high ranking, surviving Darkfriends(which pretty much means Moggy at this point), where it'd probably be an advantage.Ross posted:I assume that the One Power still exists or else the other channelers would have been going apeshit. It seems to me either Rand created a new Power by merging the Saidar/Saidin/TP (there was a line that hinted at this near the end, the text called it the Power or something like that), or that Rand now has Creater/Dark One-like powers himself. It's been described before, but the True Power is essentially directly re-weaving the Pattern as you go, similar in fact, to Ta'veren abilities. I guess the Saa simply means that in the middle of the light, there must be some darkness, or something of the sort.
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Jan 12, 2013 03:52
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kazil posted:I think the best part of the Last Battle was the appearance of the Hinderstap villagers at the dam I laughed out loud when that happened, what a spectacular unexpected callback.
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Jan 12, 2013 03:57
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RembrandtQEinstein posted:I laughed out loud when that happened, what a spectacular unexpected callback. I love the Ashaman reaction. "This is wrong, sending civilians to their deaths in a hopeless defense" "...burn me they're back" Mat actually managed to incorporate a berserk, respawning village into his plans as a surprise factor. Bet the Shadow didn't see THAT one coming.
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Jan 12, 2013 04:15
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RembrandtQEinstein posted:I laughed out loud when that happened, what a spectacular unexpected callback. Yeah, of all the callbacks I could have expected, that one would have been waaaaaaay down the list. Absolutely wonderful.
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Jan 12, 2013 04:32
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Ross posted:I assume that the One Power still exists or else the other channelers would have been going apeshit. It seems to me either Rand created a new Power by merging the Saidar/Saidin/TP (there was a line that hinted at this near the end, the text called it the Power or something like that), or that Rand now has Creater/Dark One-like powers himself. I thought in an earlier post that Rand could basically weave the Pattern as he will on a localized scale, and considering the True Power also tended to directly mess with the Pattern (see all the True Power use creating the fractures in reality like Balefire did), saa might just be a side-effect of doing that in general. Or just residue from Moridin's overuse of TP. I don't think Rand's actually using the TP in that scene since the users of it feel it and I believe can even see their own weaves, when Rand quite clearly can't.
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Jan 12, 2013 04:45
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Yeah, Rand has become the embodiment of the previously described Fain-style of "sidestepped the Pattern." Through his experience in Shayol Ghul he's seen how he can directly manipulate the Pattern itself, and while he probably can't do it on a grand scale like he would have been able to while at the bore and channelling all 3 powers, he can probably do a lot of crazy local stuff. It's also very like he's consciously able to simulate the effects of being a ta'veren now, without actually being one.
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Jan 12, 2013 04:55
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ElMudo posted:
Can't believe how close it came to this happening... MajorBonnet fucked around with this message at 06:19 on Jan 12, 2013 |
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Jan 12, 2013 06:17
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So now that Graendal is Aviendha's slave, can they just pump her for information about the Age of Legends? Also, is Demandred constantly seeing Lews Therin in the enemies he faces (first thinking Mat is secretly him, then Lan) supposed to make his character a kind of commentary on the internet hunts for Demandred's identity? It certainly seemed that way and along with the image of him constantly shouting like a loving lunatic made him into a missed opportunity for me.
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Jan 12, 2013 07:58
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About Demandred: I think people's complaints are completely off base. He took the duels as they came because a) He was always searching for a challenge and b) He was, in his own way, trying to save the world. The old Dragon would have, for sure, responded to his taunting eventually. It took close to 12 books for Rand to overcome Lews Therin's shadow and become his own man.
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Jan 12, 2013 09:05
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Y posted:So now that Graendal is Aviendha's slave, can they just pump her for information about the Age of Legends?. They could, but first they would have to know about it. They don't.
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Jan 12, 2013 10:38
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Jedit posted:They could, but first they would have to know about it. They don't. This is similar to my concern about the Seanchan. The Seanchan now have access to one of the Forsaken, with all that that entails. Locations of caches of angreal, weaves, history, etc. That could prove interesting for the future of the empire. As for Rand's new power, I don't know how much sense this makes but the Aiel always refer to death as "waking from the dream". He's not dead, or at least he's alive again, so maybe there's some spill over with the rules of TAR and the real world?
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Jan 12, 2013 11:53
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Just finished it. Owns, owns, owns, owns, owns. I'll post more after I get some sleep, four hours in the last day because I was up all night reading it.
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Jan 12, 2013 12:35
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Someone needs to go through, cross-reference every RAFO, and find out if they missed any.
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Jan 12, 2013 15:18
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OK, so after marathoning the thing, I can safely say that this book was one of the most satisfying reads in the entire series. Big chapter 37 spoilers: - I went into this unspoiled (with the exception of reading the prologue and sample chapters), but during the first meeting between Egwene and Tuon, realised that Egwene might have to die, and as a result wasn't surprised when she did. This wasn't out of any particular dislike for the character, but the realisation from the conversation that she would theoretically be the biggest threat to the Dragon's Peace post-Tarmon Gaidon. Her inability to let go to what happened to her at the hands of the Seancean, combined with the fact that even up to the moments before Gawyn's death she was trying to manipulate everything into the favour of the White Tower, seemed to reflect a view that people were tools that could be used to achieve particular results. In this respect, she seemed to be to be the Green Ajah archetype - the warrior, who stood ready to face the Shadow. She was an excellent war-time leader, but through her experiences, would be ill-suited to a position of power in peace and rebuilding. At least, that was my take on her, anyway.
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Jan 12, 2013 18:03
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So: Thought Lan's first feeling about Thom was finally proven right when he kills 'Cadsuane.' Happy to see I was wrong. Was completely blindsided by the Hinderstap thing, laughed my rear end off when I realised what was going on. Well played, Mat. Happy to see Rand gets a chance at a life. Mat is never going to stop being loving awesome. Had to say I thought the redveils were a bit of a letdown, they kinda showed up and fought a lot but didn't really do anything totally gamechanging. Given how scared loving Slayer was of them, I expected them to be a bit more. Demandred was a total boss, and I would have loved to see the  when he rolled up at the head of the Sharans totally surprising absolutely everyone.Given her previous failings, Graendal/Hessalam seemed scarily competent in this one. Lanfear, well, bit disappointing to see she was just her old self. There was part of me that was kinda hoping she would do the whole coming back to the Light thing, and then get taken down out of the blue by someone who (reasonably) thought she was a threat. Maybe I'm just cruel, but I felt she deserved no better. The Black Tower thing kind of felt a bit weak to me as well. I thought the earlier chapters did a wonderful job of building up the claustrophobia and tension in that place and I dunno, the resolution of it kind of fell a bit flat for me. And that is not taking away from Androl at all, who is the man. Now, the following people need to take a bow. Whoever predicted Rand-Moridin body-swap and Rand lives happily ever after. Whoever predicted Demandred had the Sharans. Whoever predicted the male Aiel channelers were being turned into nasties in the Blight. Whoever predicted Padan Fain would do nothing useful and die like a bitch. Whoever predicted Gawyn would die like a bitch doing something stupid. Whoever predicted Lanfear's dream at the end of ToM was a trap. I think that was most of the major ones.
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Jan 12, 2013 21:37
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If every post in this thread is going to be a giant block of black text why don't we just put spoiler warnings in the op and knock it off? It's not like most of these black bars are labeled so if you haven't finished the book you have no idea whether or not it's going to spoil you. To contribute, I just marathoned through it the other day and absolutely loved it, by far my favorite book of the series since some of the earlier ones. I'm probably going to be grabbing the audiobook at some point to listen to while I commute.
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Jan 12, 2013 23:14
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Pesmerga posted:OK, so after marathoning the thing, I can safely say that this book was one of the most satisfying reads in the entire series. If true it's pretty lovely that a nominal peace is not only worth human rights abuses (this was going to have to be the case regardless of whether Egwene died or not, of course; the Seanchan were able to twist Rand's arm on it) but that a victim of those same abuses has to be killed to 'get her out of the way' lest she actually have the nerve to rock the boat about them. I think it's kind of crappy to dismissively say 'an inability to let go' as if letting go is in any way good, right, or a reasonable expectation. You probably didn't mean it this way, but the subtext is there. The observation that she might not have been suited to lead in a world where the balance of power was much more egalitarian than the old Tar Valon holding the puppetstrings is a reasonable one, though.
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Jan 13, 2013 01:44
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rafikki posted:This is similar to my concern about the Seanchan. Who do you mean here? The only one left is Moghedian and she's Compulsed to Aviendha.
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Jan 13, 2013 02:40
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Ross posted:Who do you mean here? The only one left is Moghedian and she's Compulsed to Aviendha. No, graandal is compulsed to aviendha, mogh was the spy in mat's command tent and is now a damane. Demandred: I like how everyone expected him to be someone in randland, and then he shows up with the sharans. Reminds me of how rand wanted to kill graendel, "pretend you are playing their game and then just punch them in the face". Looking back on it, there are a few slight hints when it is mentioned how far to the east he is located, but due to traveling that really doesn't mean that much. Ika fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Jan 13, 2013 |
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Jan 13, 2013 02:47
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Ah right I mixed up. So are the crystal columns in Rhuidean the same thing that Egwene turned herself into with anti-balefile?
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Jan 13, 2013 02:52
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Ross posted:Ah right I mixed up. I don't think so. Egwene did sorta what the Lews Therin did; pulled too much Power and died for it. In Lews Therin's case, he was probably channeling Earth and Fire, and got a volcano. Egwene got crystal.
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Jan 13, 2013 03:03
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ConfusedUs posted:I don't think so. Egwene channeled all five powers and her PoV implied that it was an actual weave she uses, particularly considering she'd done it on a much smaller scale earlier on. Lews Therin seems to have just pulled in a gently caress-ton of power without any conscious intent beyond killing himself.
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Jan 13, 2013 03:51
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SerSpook posted:Egwene channeled all five powers and her PoV implied that it was an actual weave she uses, particularly considering she'd done it on a much smaller scale earlier on. Lews Therin seems to have just pulled in a gently caress-ton of power without any conscious intent beyond killing himself. Right, she'd been channeling an actual weave but drew too much while doing so and recognized that she'd done.so and just went with it. I'm but sure whether she kept that anti-balefire weave going or just did like LT and kept drawing as much as she could until she popped.
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Jan 13, 2013 04:02
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Egwene's death is a callback on multiple levels. The Amrylin who inspired the 'Hall must approve Amrylin leaving the Tower' law was Green. Her body was found surrounded by Trollocs as far as can be seen. More directly relevant(since I doubt most people care about some historical Amrylin mentioned only once), Manetheren's story. When King Aemon died, Queen Eldrene felt the bond snap and destroyed all the dreadlords there in a suicidal flare of power. Two Finger posted:Given her previous failings, Graendal/Hessalam seemed scarily competent in this one. The surviving Forsaken finally get to play to their strengths, as can be seen, here. Graendal had actually been doing stuff like that before already, considering the vast number of people she'd messed with and contribution to the overall rise of chaos. Moghedien was best when she was spying and infiltrating, not engaging in personal duels with one of the strongest channelers of this Age. Lanfear at the high level subversion and backstabbing. Demandred at the working of armies. Really, most of the Forsaken weren't particularly notable for their personal combat prowess, other than knowing more weaves and having more experience.
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Jan 13, 2013 04:10
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When did Graendal die? I thought that when Rand balefired her palace that she was in a safe place. She must have been, otherwise the DO wouldn't have been able to resurrect her into her ugly body.
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Jan 13, 2013 05:29
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The Midniter posted:When did Graendal die? I thought that when Rand balefired her palace that she was in a safe place. She must have been, otherwise the DO wouldn't have been able to resurrect her into her ugly body. She was punished for her "failures" at the end of ToM. This punishment presumably included killing her and resurrecting her.
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Jan 13, 2013 05:33
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After all those complaints about books where not much happens, we get a book where there is never a point at which everything isn't happening all at the same time. The bit about compressed time at Shayol Ghul was the most clever integration of storytelling constraints into the mechanics of your fictional universe since RJ came up with ta'veren. Were we supposed to know who Tinna was? It felt like there were so many details dropped that she had to be someone we'd already seen, but I can't think of who. Definitely felt the lack of Nynaeve and Rand/Min scenes, but I suppose you can't have everything.
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Jan 13, 2013 06:06
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I finished the book and it was incredible. What a fantastic ending to a series that I've been reading for almost half my life. I did not expect the ending to be this good, I think Sanderson did an amazing job. And of course Robert Jordan is a genius, I wish he was still alive to see the end of his series. My only real questions after finishing, some of which have already been discussed: 1. how did Rand switch bodies with Moridin? The link between them is already established but how did he actually pull it off? 2. That old Aiel woman Nakomi showed up again, who the hell is she? Maybe an avatar of the Creator or something? During her conversation with Aviendha she doesn't seem like an actual living person but more like a ghost or spirit. It seemed as if she was trying to help Rand switch bodies as he died. 3. How the hell did Rand light his pipe? He can't channel anymore and Perrin thinks that all 3 are no longer ta'veren.. so how? Can he manipulate the Pattern at will? I don't think this is the same as exploiting his ta'veren abilities because he explains earlier in the book that the only reason he can force his ta'veren effects to be all positive is because the Dark One is altering the pattern in a negative way so he balances it out.
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Jan 13, 2013 06:33
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Paracelsus posted:Were we supposed to know who Tinna was? It felt like there were so many details dropped that she had to be someone we'd already seen, but I can't think of who. I was wondering this too. I think it's Else Grinwell. Without looking it up I'm pretty sure an Aes Sedai recognizes her as somebody they kicked out of the tower. Not sure at all though.
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Jan 13, 2013 06:50
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Can someone tell me where Nakomi showed up again?
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Jan 13, 2013 07:15
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Paytizzle posted:Can someone tell me where Nakomi showed up again? Page 892 edit: vv Yeah it was a real struggle to hold back from doing that. Oh well, just re-read the whole series like I plan to 
Streebs fucked around with this message at 07:27 on Jan 13, 2013 |
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Jan 13, 2013 07:21
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Streebs posted:Page 892 Thank you. This is why I shouldn't marathon books.
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Jan 13, 2013 07:25
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quote:Now, the following people need to take a bow. Thanks, I totally called both a long rear end time ago in one of the WoT threads, had a lot of goons argue with my reasons . I was very satisfied with the book, and glad it ended how it did. Sanderson's knack for writing battles totally worked with this book.
subpage fucked around with this message at 08:00 on Jan 13, 2013 |
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Jan 13, 2013 07:55
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Two Finger posted:
I think this was my only prediction that actually turned out to be right. When Demandred came rolling in with the Sharans, I literally yelled "I knew it!" at my book.
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Jan 13, 2013 08:11
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Just finished it myself, great ending to the series. So at the end, Rand says that the dark one is not the enemy and he finally understands. I don't quiet understand. Is the DO just a type of destructive force that's just there because it needs to be? So does that make the people bored in/ realsed the power/tapped the true power the real enemy? Also after looking at the back flap of the book, I just realized that Jordon used to live in Charleston, SC, which is where I just moved to. I thought was pretty cool and almost thought about driving by and seeing his house. Goddamn I just realized I missed a signing yesterday in town. I thought it was today: quote:The name James Rigney may be unfamiliar to some sci-fi readers, but Robert Jordan will certainly ring a bell. That's the pseudonym Rigney, a Charleston resident, used to craft his epic The Wheel of Time series before his death in 2007. The story lives on, however, thanks to fan and author Brandon Sanderson, who has worked on the final three novels of the series. The most recent volume, and the last in the New York Times best-selling series, A Memory of Light, was released this month.
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Jan 13, 2013 08:15
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Thoughts on the Peace of the Dragon: The more I think about it, the less tenable it seems to be as a long-term peace. And I don't think it's intended to be: I think it's supposed to be an analogue to the US after the Revolutionary War. Consider these three problems: First, the Peace of the Dragon locks the nations into their current borders. But what about the land in between nations? Between peace, new technology, new and more widespread uses of channelling, and work with Ogier/possibly Treesinging humans, I think it's pretty obvious that Randland is heading for a huge population boom. There's going to be pressure from within all nations to spill outward into that unclaimed land... but how do nations peacefully decide who gets what unclaimed land? By the terms of the peace, this land can't be annexed into existing states... do the existing states form puppet states around their borders? What if a noble (or a puppet state) declares himself independent, and then his monarch rides in to crush him - are the other nations bound by the Peace to defend the noble here? To defend the monarch? Second, there's a whole lot of land outside Randland. Is this governed by the old law of might makes right? Or is it under the Peace of the Dragon? It seems likely there's a whole bunch of suddenly-arable land where the Blight used to be - who decides who gets to settle there? And what about Shara and Seanchan? If Shara decides to attack the Aiel, is everyone else in Randland obligated to Travel across the Waste to help out with that? If the Empress starts reconquering the Seanchan home continent, is that a violation of the Peace of the Dragon? Are other countries obligated to help out if it goes badly for her, or is this a purely defensive agreement? What if the Empress conquers half the continent, but the Aiel march over the North Pole and conquer the other half - is that a violation of Seanchan (traditional) borders, a violation of whatever splinter states the Aiel conquered, or no violation at all? (And remember, Randland and Seanchan are the same continent, which used to be separated by the Blight... which no longer exists. So that could pose a major threat in the future.) And third, half of Randland allows channeller slavery, and the other half opposes it. How is this actually going to work in the long term? The Empress is allowed to keep any damane who wants to stay... but after a few weeks of brainwashing, they all want to stay. So what's to stop the Seanchan from disappearing random channellers from Randland proper, and then producing them a few weeks later, all claiming to have had an epiphany about their need to be locked up? What happens if the Seanchan are allowed to reconquer Seanchan, or attack Shara, or absorb previously stateless populations on their borders? Do these areas automatically become slave areas, or do they keep their free status? What happens to male Seanchan channellers? Are they collared? Sent to the Black Tower? Logain never signed the Peace of the Dragon - will he go along with men being collared, or not? These problems all faced the early United States. Even with the Constitution, which explicitly sets out how new states are formed, and the federal government, which specifically was in charge of settling new land, there were all kinds of conflicts about which states owned which territory. And of course the conflict over slavery ended up in a bloody war. And the US was actually in a better situation than Randland, since we had more cultural homogeneity, a unified commitment to democracy and self-determination, and similar foreign policy goals - Randland has none of these things. So basically, I don't think Aviendha changed the future by preventing the war between the Aiel and the Seanchan. I think she changed the future by making the wetlanders firm allies with the Aiel, instead of the frosty relationship depicted in her memories.
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Jan 13, 2013 09:19
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Ponsonby Britt posted:Thoughts on the Peace of the Dragon: Yeah, I don't think you're wrong, although the point still stands that Rand probably creates at least a significant chunk of time after the Last Battle where there will be relative peace and rebuilding. That was his point - he just didn't want another period where mankind lost most of its progress after turning back the shadow. The strong implication is that the Seanchan stuff was going to be sorted out in the eventual outrigger series, which was apparently going to focus on Mat and Tuon as they set about retaking Seandar. It's already fairly apparent that Mat, Min and various prolific channelers were beginning to force the Seanchan to question the foundations of their society, so it's not too much of a stretch to assume that there were going to be some big shake-ups if we went further along this timeline.
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Jan 13, 2013 14:19
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VanillaGorilla posted:It's already fairly apparent that Mat, Min and various prolific channelers were beginning to force the Seanchan to question the foundations of their society, so it's not too much of a stretch to assume that there were going to be some big shake-ups if we went further along this timeline. Egwene's deal with Tuon also opens up the possibility for reform as well. I think it's clear they're going to be pushed on the road to reform - but only if the peace holds.
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Jan 13, 2013 14:31
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Haggins posted:
D'oh! I went to it yesterday. Trip report: There was a half hour or so of question and answer from Brandon, Harriett, Maria, and Alan, then book signings. About ~250 people showed up total. They didn't answer questions involving spoilers for the last book. One guy asked if you got pregnant in tel'aran'rhiod if you would remain pregnant in the waking world. They all sortof looked at each other like "well, that's a weird question" and said they didn't know, then Maria said that if an injury stuck with you then pregnancy probably would too. A couple questions still got answered with "REAFO", which apparently is "Read (the upcoming Encyclopedia) and find out." Some questions are never going to be answered because Jordan wanted plot threads to be left hanging. Someone asked who killed Asmodean. They said it's in the glossary to (whichever book) and you can look it up. They also said that the reason for this was, the only note they had confirming the answer was a post-it note stating "this is correct" attached to a printout of a fan theory. So they felt putting the answer in a glossary at the end of (Towers of Midnight I think?) was a way to give readers that same sense of "what?!" they'd felt. Somehow the topic of the 200-page chapter in Memory of Light came up. Brandon said that was deliberate on his part; he wanted his readers to have the same sense of exhaustion the characters were feeling at that point, to think to themselves "I'll just read one more chapter" and then it just goes on and on and on etc. There was some talk of the "outrigger" novels. Those are definitively not going to happen. Apparently the only real notes on those were two sentences Jordan wrote (which contained spoilers so Harriett wouldn't repeat them), so they would have amounted to "sharecropping" in Jordan's world, not detailed working from his notes, and that was something Jordan very much opposed, so it's not going to happen. Those two sentences probably will be in the upcoming encyclopedia. The encyclopedia's going to include all the various cool background details about specific characters that never made it into the direct text. Currently planned for one volume but they're not really sure of details etc. on it yet. The exhibits were kinda cool. They had some printouts of early early drafts of Eye of the World (Padan Fain's name: originally "Nikal Fain", with Nikal crossed out in pencil and "Padan" written over it), copies of 3.5" floppy disks with the Dragon Reborn drafts on it, an old Apple IIe Jordan had written the first novel(s) on, various foreign-language editions of the books, and a "Perrin's Axe" and "Mat's Dagger" that Museum Replicas made up years & years ago to Jordan's specifications (&which I don't think you can buy anymore). Also mannequins wearing an Aiel costume with spear and shield, an Asha'man costume, and a costume for Rand (both with the Museum Replicas heron-mark swords). The exhibits should still be there if you want to swing by the library and take a look -- it's right off Calhoun St. The college will be putting up stuff from Jordan's papers over time; there's a blog you can look at for updates on that here: http://blogs.cofc.edu/thetruesource/ Calenth fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Jan 13, 2013 |
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Jan 13, 2013 16:01
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So what exactly IS the Dark One. i know he's the Ying to rands Yang, but what is he? i was almost certain padain fain was going to become the new darkone or something like that, but i dont really even know what his part in the last battle was, it was just useless. The whole metaphysical thing kinda made me thing there really was no Light. Since because all ages repeat themselves eventually, doesnt that mean that the Creator didn't really seal the bore and trap the DO in his prison, The Dragon did. So does that make the Dragon the Creator and Light of WoT? And that makes rand statement that the DO is outside of the pattern false? Since he had that vision and W/o the DO humans were just empty shells with now will? So my questions. Is the Dragon the Creator? Is the Dark One a thread in the pattern to challenge humans every few thousand years? Is there really a Creator?
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Jan 13, 2013 16:51
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