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RickoniX posted:SF2 has random damage and is the most competitive Street Fighter game Yes I know, in fact I brought up SF2 in my post! It's almost as if they realized that, despite making a really great game, it had some things that should change (and no fighting game since then has had random damage)!
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Jan 14, 2013 23:27
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If you hate the way smash players operate maybe you should become active in the community and try to get it changed. Otherwise who gives a gently caress how they want to run their tournaments, let them do what they want.
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Jan 14, 2013 23:32
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Minorities posted:Top players of almost all competitive games hate randomness because apparently "adaptability" isn't a skill. In the case of Smash, you can't "adapt" to an item-crate randomly spawning on-top of your character mid-attack and randomly blowing up and killing you. Similarly, you can't "adapt" to a useful Item just spawning at your Opponents Feet who is standing at the other end of the level. Just like how you can't "adapt" to a Fox outrunning you until time-out on a circular level like Hyrule Temple where it becomes literally impossible to catch him. Honestly, almost everything that the Smash community has banned (stages, and levels) is in order to promote actual adaptability between the two players in a head-to-head, rather than having matches devolve into whoever happened to have the best luck at the time. Ironically, you can't "adapt" to Tripping either, and it's impossible to turn-off Tripping, which probably helps explain a part of why Brawl is dead-last in the donation drive for EVO's 8th game. chumbler posted:A home run bat creates an objective for the players to contest and will weight their actions in a specific way. A bob-omb that spawns on a nearby pedestal now adds a new element of area control and incentive. Barring highly improbable things like a bob-omb spawning right in the middle of your swing, I think properly implemented randomness can be used well and can drive a game to be more interesting and stay fresh. Yea, while I don't disagree with your examples of items creating new objectives to adapt to in the middle of the match, more often than not, it isn't that clean, and it usually just leads to a completely free advantage or disadvantage for one player. It's just Smash unfortunately wasn't designed with the items and stages as having controlled randomness and most often it just leads to unfair situations "just because." It would be a lot more interesting if say... Random Items spawned in pre-determined positions on the stage, at pre-determined times (say every 1 minute interval). Then you'd actually have an interesting dynamic where players would be fighting for a portion of the stage at a specific time. Who knows, maybe in Smash 4? Also incase you aren't aware, the whole Items-On/Off debate for the Smash Community didn't happen overnight. There was literally years of debates with people firmly on either side of the fence. Items-On tournaments existed for a very long time alongisde Items-Off tournaments, until eventually it was just agreed upon. I'm sure there is a history of the tournament scene somewhere on their community forums. EDIT: quote:Barring highly improbable things like a bob-omb spawning right in the middle of your swing It's more probable than you think. SSBM Tournament Grand Finals matches have been decided on exactly this kind of luck. Happy Blue Cow fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Jan 14, 2013 |
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Jan 14, 2013 23:42
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apple posted:wahooo Wait. Hold on a sec. Am I misreading this post or are you really the BananaKen? Dude... you're awesome. You and Vanilla-era Ed Ma are the reason I play Ken. I loved your FT10 set against Chris that went up on YouTube last week. Really inspired stuff from both of you. (Please disregard if I misunderstood your post and you're not BananaKen)
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Jan 14, 2013 23:45
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Time_pants posted:Wait. Hold on a sec. Am I misreading this post or are you really the BananaKen? Dude... you're awesome. You and Vanilla-era Ed Ma are the reason I play Ken. I loved your FT10 set against Chris that went up on YouTube last week. Really inspired stuff from both of you. Yeah that's Bananaken
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Jan 14, 2013 23:45
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No, apple is FruityRyu. Who's BananaKen?
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Jan 15, 2013 00:05
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Dota is an good example of well-handled randomness imo.
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Jan 15, 2013 00:18
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Death Bot posted:I don't remember all the specifics, but basically some kid (actually like 12) trained a character (ROB) because items were on for EVO, and then when he won everyone called him cheap and he got bullied into giving the prize money to the guy who took second. What do you mean 'trained a character'? That character gets more advantages from items than other characters or something?
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Jan 15, 2013 00:30
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uXs posted:What do you mean 'trained a character'? That character gets more advantages from items than other characters or something? That said, there's no glitch involved. Dude just saw a character that would benefit a lot from items being on and took advantage of it.
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Jan 15, 2013 00:35
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Happy Blue Cow posted:It's more probable than you think. SSBM Tournament Grand Finals matches have been decided on exactly this kind of luck. Didn't someone win a tournament because their opponent tripped right into a charging Smash attack? Might have been a casual match, but still, it's a stupid element that you can't do anything about. Along with one of the various bombs appearing right in front of you and blowing you up, recovery items tend to spawn when one player is trying to recover to the stage or right next to one player when the other(s) don't have any time to contest it. Items in Smash are a lot less about fighting over them, but more about just getting really dumb luck. sigher fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Jan 15, 2013 |
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Jan 15, 2013 00:37
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One good random mechanic that allows for adaptation in fighting games is Faust's items and Zappa's ghosts from the Guilty Gear series. A good Faust/Zappa player can see what they get and adjust their pressure strings accordingly to fit.
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Jan 15, 2013 00:41
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Top players in Scrabble and Poker win consistently despite most of their games being random and luck-based.quote:In the case of Smash, you can't "adapt" to an item-crate randomly spawning on-top of your character mid-attack and randomly blowing up and killing you. Similarly, you can't "adapt" to a useful Item just spawning at your Opponents Feet who is standing at the other end of the level. Yeah, except for the part in Brawl where exploding crates are able to be turned off (while leaving other items on), and the fact that the guys who created Item Standard Play actually found a consistent pattern to item spawn points in Brawl.
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Jan 15, 2013 00:57
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Someone mentioned random damage in ST but that's not even the only part of the game that's random. I think dizzy values also vary wildly and if both players input a throw on the same frame (which happens pretty often with the games throw mechanics, in high level matches) the player who gets the throw is random. And I think some combos (that no one uses for obvious reasons) have a 50% chance of connecting when executed perfectly. ST is really a game where you're supposed to play long sets, I think, which makes the SBO one-and-done format give pretty funny results. When you watch the game, even with all the random factors most of the variability comes from things that aren't actually random (combos dropping because you're a pixel too far, Boxer pulling out a highly-charged turnaround punch out of nowhere, things like that). It makes the game still very fun to watch competitively even after so many years, without having Smash Balls or rising platforms or whatever. Not to mention that one-on-one competition is still at the heart of fighting games. Even if you don't think of Smash as a fighting game, I think having to adapt to your opponent's play is more "the point" than adapting to changes in the game world. If there's going to be randomness, I would rather have it be attached to characters' moves than to the stage. I haven't played Guilty Gear but that Faust thing seems like a fun mechanic. If the game becomes more about manipulating items I feel like it would decrease character playstyle variety more than anything else. For example in Brawl Diddy Kong is pretty much based on banana gimmicks. It's kind of his thing. If everyone had access to throwing weapons that would dilute the novelty. Redmark fucked around with this message at 01:11 on Jan 15, 2013 |
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Jan 15, 2013 01:06
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Shiki Dan posted:Yeah, except for the part in Brawl where exploding crates are able to be turned off (while leaving other items on), and the fact that the guys who created Item Standard Play actually found a consistent pattern to item spawn points in Brawl. A consistent pattern in just spawn points or the items themselves?
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Jan 15, 2013 01:19
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uXs posted:What do you mean 'trained a character'? That character gets more advantages from items than other characters or something? ROB is pretty heavy, very mobile, has some global zoning between his laser (near-instant horizontal beam that can be angled like 20 degrees and bounces off slopes) and his projectile top, has decent range on a fair number of his normals, and his final smash is a decently long invincibility that also does bursts of damage in front of him while also allowing him to play normally. Basically upon hearing that items were going to be allowed this kid did the smart thing and picked a character that is great at stalling and putting on small amounts of damage and running away until he gets his final smash, and won. He played better and won. Smash Brothers. Sire Oblivion posted:Didn't someone win a tournament because their opponent tripped right into a charging Smash attack? Might have been a casual match, but still, it's a stupid element that you can't do anything about. Along with one of the various bombs appearing right in front of you and blowing you up, recovery items tend to spawn when one player is trying to recover to the stage or right next to one player when the other(s) don't have any time to contest it. Items in Smash are a lot less about fighting over them, but more about just getting really dumb luck. Honestly I feel like a game mod that removed tripping and explosive crates while still keeping normal crates in would work just fine. Maybe turn off bombs if you really want, they can work pretty negatively, but nothing else tends to impact the game that heavily.
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Jan 15, 2013 01:20
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Getting a recovery (or hell, any) item while your opponent is trying to get back on the stage is pretty heavy impact on the match. Or one of the powerful Pokemon that is the perfect edgeguard. Why even bother with items when the game plays better without them anyway?
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Jan 15, 2013 01:29
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Sire Oblivion posted:Getting a recovery (or hell, any) item while your opponent is trying to get back on the stage is pretty heavy impact on the match. Or one of the powerful Pokemon that is the perfect edgeguard. I know nothing about Smash, but couldn't you argue that Marvel plays better without x-factor/tac infinites/all the other bugs that make the game so hype?
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Jan 15, 2013 04:02
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bouncyman posted:I know nothing about Smash, but couldn't you argue that Marvel plays better without x-factor/tac infinites/all the other bugs that make the game so hype? One of these things is not like the others, one of these things just doesn't belong
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Jan 15, 2013 04:18
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bouncyman posted:I know nothing about Smash, but couldn't you argue that Marvel plays better without x-factor/tac infinites/all the other bugs that make the game so hype? http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0D3BF55737B9509C it didnt make the game better
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Jan 15, 2013 04:25
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In case there's anyone else that cares about fighting game podcast type of shows, UltraChen is back on tonight and Cross Counter Live will be on tomorrow. Tonight's UltraChen: "#FirstAttack with @jchensor will cover some new segments & new ideas, while #Lv3Focus will cover ChrisG v FChamp in #UMvC3 from #Apex2013!" and tomorrow's CC will have Valle on to talk SCR. UltraChen should be on soon https://www.twitch.tv/ultrachentv And if you want gameplay, Latif was playing online AE sets with apple on https://www.twitch.tv/razerlatif and FGTV had PR Rog, ShadyK, and Ruin playing UMvC3 https://www.twitch.tv/fgtvlive edit: On the SCR topic, to go with the AE 3v3 and SFxT2013 exhibition they added Latif vs Infiltration in AE and UMvC3 sets: Combofiend vs MarlinPie, Infrit vs Bee, and Dios X vs Filipino Champ. iPodschun fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Jan 15, 2013 |
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Jan 15, 2013 05:00
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Sire Oblivion posted:A consistent pattern in just spawn points or the items themselves? Spawn points. quote:Getting a recovery (or hell, any) item while your opponent is trying to get back on the stage is pretty heavy impact on the match. Or one of the powerful Pokemon that is the perfect edgeguard. Item Standard Play doesn't allow Poke Balls or recovery items.
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Jan 15, 2013 05:47
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Aku posted:Wow, this is the first time I heard this. What a lovely fuckin' community... http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=15238800&postcount=5342 Yep, seems like a bunch of stand up dudes indeed.
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Jan 15, 2013 07:58
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Samurai Shodown had a guy in the background randomly throw items onto the playing field. But then again, I don't think Samurai Shodown has ever been played competitively.
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Jan 15, 2013 08:44
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Shiki Dan posted:Item Standard Play doesn't allow Poke Balls or recovery items. So where is the line drawn? Why are certain items "balanced enough" to be worth playing with? Why even bother if you're going to going to be anal about items in the first place? It's completely stupid.
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Jan 15, 2013 09:06
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Because drawing the conclusion that because a few items may be unbalanced, that all of them should be banned is even more idiotic? Because there's a distinction between a turtle shell and an item that lets someone turn into Super Sonic? That it makes no sense to ban some items since certain characters like Snake and Diddy Kong can already produce unlimited quantities of items to begin with?
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Jan 15, 2013 09:32
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All these Smash kids bitching about "randomness" need to quit being such nerds, go play some poker, and learn how to loving GAMBOOOOOOOL. Standardizing things and removing "luck" is the fastest way to kill off interest in your game of choice. Edit: Because the more homogeneous a game is the faster casuals lose interest. The more casuals drop out of the community the less tournaments will be funded, thus killing off interest among the pro community, thereby ensuring your favorite games demise. ZergRushing fucked around with this message at 09:48 on Jan 15, 2013 |
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Jan 15, 2013 09:43
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ZergRushing posted:All these Smash kids bitching about "randomness" need to quit being such nerds, go play some poker, and learn how to loving GAMBOOOOOOOL. Standardizing things and removing "luck" is the fastest way to kill off interest in your game of choice. Yeah remember to keep the discussion past tense. The Smash community is full of the worst dregs of FGC playing a game they hate using sperged out rules designed to let favorites win as often as possible. They already killed their game, much to the extreme disappointment of myself and others.
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Jan 15, 2013 11:48
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animatorZed posted:http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=15238800&postcount=5342 Well, that's not really the first I've heard of console theft in a tournament. There should have been tighter security for basically an area that has nothing BUT consoles. Still, that does nothing to persuade me to think otherwise about that scene. The constant rule changing, the whining, clashes with the FGC, Mew2King...I feel really bad for the other top Smash players because it feels like they're wasting their time and potential on such a trainwreck. Just either give up and play something else, or let it rock and break the game as hard as possible. That's what they did with 3S and MvC2. The former still has a strong scene in Japan and recently had Cooperation Cup, the latter was THE American scene for over a decade.
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Jan 15, 2013 13:07
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Pretty much I think Smash could have a scene if they did tournaments as 2v2's with items. The game isn't built for 1v1 and having extra bodies lets the "random factor" swing a lot more dramatically. Trapped my ally in an infite? Cool I'll just bomb-omb all three of you. Of course, that would require pro smash players to with other people. The horror.
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Jan 15, 2013 13:32
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Cuchulain posted:Pretty much I think Smash could have a scene if they did tournaments as 2v2's with items. The game isn't built for 1v1 and having extra bodies lets the "random factor" swing a lot more dramatically. Trapped my ally in an infite? Cool I'll just bomb-omb all three of you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD_imYhNoQ4
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Jan 15, 2013 13:33
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See? 2v2's are more exciting, even when it's (almost) Fox only no items.
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Jan 15, 2013 13:35
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animatorZed posted:http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=15238800&postcount=5342 This was a fighting game tournament and someone from the FGC could have stolen these things. Though Alex Strife isn't the most uh... reliable dude either. Just sayin', don't point all the fingers at the Smash community for that.
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Jan 15, 2013 14:48
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While I'm bringing up Cooperation Cup, somebody was kind enough to record the Niconico stream and upload all of Top 16 that was streamed onto Youtube. Top 16 Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Q2aBBLqEqwo [K.O Family] Pierrot (RE) Kokujin (DU), Yakkun (YU) Ochibi (YU) Tokura (YA) VS [Kyushu Men ~Daga Shikashi!] Ushi!? (YU) RB (Urien) Koupun. (IB) KASQ (Q) Kuroda (RY) Top 16 Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SXvSOMrjVwY [Datena F1R] Dance(RY) Gesuyarou(KE) Bagon(YU) Usotsuki(UR) Niku(NE) VS [Returned Urawa Bulls] Sugiyama(NE) Koushun(CH) Roshihikari(YA) RX(UR) Bistachio(TW) Top 8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ddrSRoHiSik [K.O Family] Pierrot(RE)/Kokujin(DU)/Yakkun(YU)/Ochibi(YU)/Tokura(YA) VS [Chou Seimitsugumi] Seikun(RE) Nuki(CH) Genki(AL) Kuni(RY) Taihei(UR) Top 4 Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=06wZX8plTLo [K.O Family] Pierrot(RE) Kokujin(DU) Yakkun(YU) Ochibi(YU) Tokura(YA) VS [God Power Boss with Mimo who] Boss(YU) Rikimaru(CH) Haitani(MA) Mimora(MA) Tominaga(MA) Top 4 Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qHv9X5j6KFU [Returned Urawa Bulls] Sugiyama(NE) Koushun(CH) Roshihikari(YA) RX(UR) Bistachio(TW) VS [Death Machine] MOV(CH) Wantaaren(YA) KillerMachine(CH) Moto(YU) Nakamura(DU) Grand Finals http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=T1JaNL_CUQU [God Power Boss with Mimo who] Boss(YU) Rikimaru(CH) Haitani(MA) Mimora(MA) Tominaga(MA) VS [Returned Urawa Bulls] Sugiyama(NE) Koushun(CH) Roshihikari(YA) RX(UR) Bistachio(TW) Overall a very exciting event, with a nail-biter of a Grand Finals. finalcake fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Jan 15, 2013 |
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Jan 15, 2013 14:55
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Thanks a lot for that Aku, I was just looking at TheShend for it but good old deemo stepped up. 3S is da bessssssssss
brian fucked around with this message at 15:14 on Jan 15, 2013 |
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Jan 15, 2013 14:58
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Countblanc posted:Yes I know, in fact I brought up SF2 in my post! It's almost as if they realized that, despite making a really great game, it had some things that should change (and no fighting game since then has had random damage)! The point of my post was that the most balanced Street Fighter is the only one with randomness, maybe randomness isn't as bad as all that?
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Jan 15, 2013 15:12
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RickoniX posted:The point of my post was that the most balanced Street Fighter is the only one with randomness, maybe randomness isn't as bad as all that? Which SF2 game are you referring to in terms of balance? I can only think of Hyper Fighting; Super Turbo is far from being "most balanced".
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Jan 15, 2013 15:21
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Waterbed posted:This was a fighting game tournament and someone from the FGC could have stolen these things. That's a fair point. I have no idea how common this is in general, nor anything about this TO.
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Jan 15, 2013 17:38
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Cuchulain posted:Pretty much I think Smash could have a scene if they did tournaments as 2v2's with items. The game isn't built for 1v1 and having extra bodies lets the "random factor" swing a lot more dramatically. Trapped my ally in an infite? Cool I'll just bomb-omb all three of you. Smash does have a scene Jesus Christ. I don't play smash but they seriously don't need or want any of you guys' suggestions and I still don't get why you give a gently caress.
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Jan 15, 2013 18:50
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Y'all know the debate between "items" vs. "no items" has been solved over the past 11 years of competitive SSBM and that the game has had an active (yet fairly small, compared to the modern FGC) scene over that entire time period, including when a sequel to the game came out? People keep telling them to "let it rock" with items on or some crazy item based ruleset when the only ones trying to rock the boat are the people in this thread for whatever reason. For the most part, people in the community are happy with how the game plays and the game is honestly pretty enjoyable to watch even if you aren't part of the community (plenty of FGC heads tweeted about their respect for Melee over the weekend of Apex). There's a lot of drama, people acting like children and shady poo poo but no one can really pretend the FGC didn't have a lot of the same issues before it blew up to the extent that it has. AFAICT, the Melee community doesn't want to sell out or be "e-sports" just as much as the FGC doesn't (didn't?).
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Jan 15, 2013 18:54
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Shiki Dan posted:Because drawing the conclusion that because a few items may be unbalanced, that all of them should be banned is even more idiotic? But why put them in? To keep with the "wacky" nature of the series? The game is interesting enough without them and is why no one runs tournaments with them.
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Jan 15, 2013 20:16
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