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MassRayPer posted:So gimmicks? To me that seems like a reason someone would like WWF/E more, because there were always more wacky gimmicks and zany antics while WCW was (usually) the more serious wrestling company. To me it felt like WCW had more characters rather than gimmicks, wrestlers with personalities rather than gimmicks. Yeah, I think that's where Himuro was going after. Jericho wasn't a legit liontamer (unlike that one action figure) but he was a larger than life personality.
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Jan 16, 2013 00:59
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WCW were good because they had the three-ring circus mentality. There really was something for everyone. For me, it was the cruiserweights 
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Jan 16, 2013 01:05
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I really liked WCW because they were better at wrestling than WWF.
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Jan 16, 2013 01:06
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Himuro posted:Only in WCW could I see a black man dance like an idiot and dress like a football player. And then scream when Meng appeared and hit him with a trash can. And get trapped in the Demon's casket and get transformed into a member of Kiss. And pin his tag team partner during a tag match to win a shot against each other for the hardcore title. Norman Smiley ruled.
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Jan 16, 2013 01:07
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I love that in the year 2013 there is still an ECW going out of it's way to poo poo on WCW.
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Jan 16, 2013 01:13
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Gonzo McFee posted:I love that in the year 2013 there is still an ECW going out of it's way to poo poo on WCW. It'll forever piss me off that we never got a One Night Stand: WCW.
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Jan 16, 2013 01:48
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I can't imagine a WCW reunion pay-per-view having been anything but awful, and I'm not really sure why.
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Jan 16, 2013 01:55
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Cardboard Box posted:I can't imagine a WCW reunion pay-per-view having been anything but awful, and I'm not really sure why. Everything WCW touched was eventually corrupted into poo poo. They even turned the WWF into poo poo with that awful invasion angle. I recently explained the whole thing to a non-fan friend. It was like Marvel versus DC finally happening... but Batman and Superman can't come because they have AOL Time Warner contracts. Wolverine joins the DC side for no apparent reason. Then Dark Horse characters show up.
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Jan 16, 2013 02:00
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Cardboard Box posted:I can't imagine a WCW reunion pay-per-view having been anything but awful, and I'm not really sure why. Let's assume they decided to do this PPV in 2003. Using only the current roster: Ric Flair vs. Hulk Hogan Bill Goldberg vs. The Giant Chris Jericho vs. Dean Malenko Eddie Guerrero vs. Rey Mysterio Scott Steiner vs. Booker T Sugar Shane Helms, Billy Kidman and Shannon Moore vs. Billy Kidman vs. Ultimo Dragon, Jimmy Yang and Jamie Knoble Chris Benoit vs. Steve Regal Lance Storm vs. Hugh Morrus That's not even including giving paycheques to Kevin Nash, DDP, Rick Steiner, Vader and many others. Eric Bischoff can be the Master of Ceremonies and eat a Stunner from Stunning Steve Austin (Austin wearing a wig).
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Jan 16, 2013 02:17
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VogeGandire posted:WCW were good because they had the three-ring circus mentality. There really was something for everyone.
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Jan 16, 2013 02:52
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Paper Jam Dipper posted:It'll forever piss me off that we never got a One Night Stand: WCW. What could have been if Buff Bagwell and Booker T hadn't stunk up the joint back on that one Raw. That was what truly ended WCW. Vince just decided the WCW brand wasn't worth it after that suck-fest.
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Jan 16, 2013 05:36
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Retail Slave posted:What could have been if Buff Bagwell and Booker T hadn't stunk up the joint back on that one Raw. That was what truly ended WCW. Vince just decided the WCW brand wasn't worth it after that suck-fest. Why are my fellow Tacoma fans blamed when Vince could have waited a week and done that in Atlanta?
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Jan 16, 2013 05:38
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Frot Lesnar posted:Why are my fellow Tacoma fans blamed when Vince could have waited a week and done that in Atlanta? The blame's on Buff Bagwell, bud.
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Jan 16, 2013 06:35
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Devil Child posted:The blame's on Buff Bagwell, bud. Among many other things yes. The fans also get blamed for giving it a lukewarm reception both at the time and in retrospects such as Death of WCW and Scott Keith.
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Jan 16, 2013 06:42
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Devil Child posted:The blame's on Buff Bagwell, bud. The blame is on Vince McMahon for booking Buff Bagwell to present what WCW was to WWF viewers.
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Jan 16, 2013 06:44
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Paper Jam Dipper posted:The blame is on Vince McMahon for booking Buff Bagwell to present what WCW was to WWF viewers. We weren't talking about Vince's share of the blame.
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Jan 16, 2013 06:46
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Devil Child posted:We weren't talking about Vince's share of the blame. Well that share is 100 per cent so I don't know why you'd even bother mentioning Buff Bagwell. Bagwell was never a good wrestler, he was inexplicably over and the only thing good about him was an airbrushed top hat and his invisible swimming (which he did to highest comedic effect when in Vicious and Delicious). Vince chose him to face Booker T in Tacoma to kick-start Nitro on Raw instead of in Georgia the next week and chose Bagwell over Lance Storm. Vince is a loving idiot who pissed millions of dollars down the drain. I'm pretty sure even if Buff had the best match of his life, it still would have sunk and it would have been on Vince.
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Jan 16, 2013 06:55
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Retail Slave posted:What could have been if Buff Bagwell and Booker T hadn't stunk up the joint back on that one Raw. That was what truly ended WCW. Vince just decided the WCW brand wasn't worth it after that suck-fest. I imagine there's some parallel universe out there where this ended up as Booker T Vs Steiner/DDP the next week in Atlanta and WCW went on to be a successful brand. I wonder if Vince would ever consider selling the WCW name, it'd be interesting to see if someone could resurrect the company.
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Jan 16, 2013 07:00
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Paper Jam Dipper posted:The blame is on Vince McMahon for booking Buff Bagwell to present what WCW was to WWF viewers. Bagwell got a giant pop when his name was mentioned weeks prior, so that put the idea in Vince's mind. That's why if people are going to blame fans it isn't just Tacoma that holds the blame. However, I don't think a WWF Raw crowd in Atlanta would help Bagwell vs Booker T anyway.
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Jan 16, 2013 07:07
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One thing to help understand Vince's mindset: he never watches non-WWE wrestling. He likely took one look at Bagwell's physique, heard him get that pop the week before, and thought the guy was a star rather than the worst worker in the company.
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Jan 16, 2013 07:21
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I'm gonna play Devil's advocate and say that Bagwell was shockingly good in Japan, and I thought he had gotten decent before the neck breaking incident, but at the same time, he was all shtick by the time Vince booked that match, and they should have put Booker against either Kanyon or DDP. I believe Steiner was taking time off for injuries so I don't think he was an option, and neither was Goldberg or Sting.
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Jan 16, 2013 16:01
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El Gallinero Gros posted:I'm gonna play Devil's advocate and say that Bagwell was shockingly good in Japan, and I thought he had gotten decent before the neck breaking incident, but at the same time, he was all shtick by the time Vince booked that match, and they should have put Booker against either Kanyon or DDP. I believe Steiner was taking time off for injuries so I don't think he was an option, and neither was Goldberg or Sting. Vince could have bought all of the talent in WCW but opted instead to just pick and choose and let most of the major stars sit.
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Jan 16, 2013 16:20
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Who dares speak ill of Buff "The Stuff" Bagwell?? I'll kill you!!
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Jan 16, 2013 16:30
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El Gallinero Gros posted:I'm gonna play Devil's advocate and say that Bagwell was shockingly good in Japan, and I thought he had gotten decent before the neck breaking incident, but at the same time, he was all shtick by the time Vince booked that match, and they should have put Booker against either Kanyon or DDP. I believe Steiner was taking time off for injuries so I don't think he was an option, and neither was Goldberg or Sting. A bunch of guys had contracts directly with Time Warner and were being paid millions to sit at home. I'm pretty sure that's why guys like Stiener and Sting weren't part of the Invasion. They should have just used DDP.
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Jan 16, 2013 16:48
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triplexpac posted:Who dares speak ill of Buff "The Stuff" Bagwell?? I'll kill you!! Sounds like someone just can't get enough.
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Jan 16, 2013 16:52
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Zack_Gochuck posted:A bunch of guys had contracts directly with Time Warner and were being paid millions to sit at home. I'm pretty sure that's why guys like Stiener and Sting weren't part of the Invasion. They should have just used DDP. They did have him but decided to make him a stalker instead. Also the main guys had to agree to buy out th erest of their contracts. The only one who was willing to do that was DDP.
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Jan 16, 2013 16:54
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That's one of the most mind-boggling things about the Invasion to me. Ok, they weren't able to get most of WCW's major stars. That sucks, but I can sort of understand it. Why then would they use the biggest WCW star they were able to get in an angle that was almost completely unrelated to the Invasion?
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Jan 16, 2013 17:25
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Zack_Gochuck posted:A bunch of guys had contracts directly with Time Warner and were being paid millions to sit at home. I'm pretty sure that's why guys like Stiener and Sting weren't part of the Invasion. They should have just used DDP.
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Jan 16, 2013 17:53
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LividLiquid posted:Vince had the option of buying out those contracts. He chose instead to offer guys pennies on the dollar to come work instead of making the whole dollars to sit at home doing nothing. We could have had a proper invasion but the money was better spent on the Debbie Reynolds hotel in Vegas that they never renovated, WWE New York and the XFL.
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Jan 16, 2013 18:14
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bobkatt013 posted:They did have him but decided to make him a stalker instead. Also the main guys had to agree to buy out th erest of their contracts. The only one who was willing to do that was DDP. Oh I know, that's why I said they just should have went with him against Booker T instead of Bagwell. DDP lost a fortune because he wanted to be a part of the Invasion. He wanted to do it that bad. There's a writeup about World War III in today's classic Observer: quote:It is becoming more and more apparent that the pressure of one-upmanship between WCW and WWF is causing both groups to book in a manner where there is no definite direction, but that the direction becomes a course that constantly changes and whatever the end result is, has little to do with whatever initial planning was. Interesting bits in there about the transition from long-term to short-term booking that so many people dislike today. Zack_Gochuck fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Jan 16, 2013 |
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Jan 16, 2013 20:45
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f4wonline.com posted:a section debunking criticisms of the first book ("WCW died because of the AOL/Time Warner merger") Now THIS will be very interesting to me, because I'm reading Eric Bischoff's book and stuff like that is where he put the majority of the blame of WCW's demise. He does admit to mistakes of his own, but in his mind the main reason WCW died wasn't bad booking or the WWE being that much better, but because his ability to do business was ripped out from under him by a corperate structure that had no idea what he was doing and didn't care because all they wanted was short term monetary gains (and considering what an absolute disaster the Time Warner and later AOL deals turned out to be, he might not be wrong). I honestly can't help but wonder if he has a point. Bischoff points out in the beginning that people reported as legitimate fact that he was responsible for booking and the Team Challenge series in the final years of the AWA, when he wasn't, according to his own word and his Wikipedia page. He actually takes a lot of swipes at the 'dirtsheets' and 'insiders', and I suppose it could be 'Ha, see? The lady doth protest too much. He's angry at them/us because WE WERE RIGHT', on the other hand I think he had a pretty valid reason to be mad at them if they weren't just criticizing how he did business, but doing it off faulty information while being so very smug and self-righteous in the impression that THEY could have run the company so much better than him. Has anyone ever gone through Eric's book and pinned down what he claimed as explicit bullshit, or is it just lost in 'He said, she said, he said, he said, she said' etc etc...
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Jan 17, 2013 06:32
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Cornwind Evil posted:Now THIS will be very interesting to me, because I'm reading Eric Bischoff's book and stuff like that is where he put the majority of the blame of WCW's demise. He does admit to mistakes of his own, but in his mind the main reason WCW died wasn't bad booking or the WWE being that much better, but because his ability to do business was ripped out from under him by a corperate structure that had no idea what he was doing and didn't care because all they wanted was short term monetary gains (and considering what an absolute disaster the Time Warner and later AOL deals turned out to be, he might not be wrong). Bischoff's book is basically 100% bullshit. Meltzer went through the first 3/4s of it and debunked everything. Keep in mind, Bischoff was one of the people talking to Meltzer so his protests about the dirtsheets are insane.
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Jan 17, 2013 06:34
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MassRayPer posted:Bischoff's book is basically 100% bullshit. Meltzer went through the first 3/4s of it and debunked everything. Keep in mind, Bischoff was one of the people talking to Meltzer so his protests about the dirtsheets are insane. Is this in an old Observer? I want to read it.
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Jan 17, 2013 07:30
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November 15, 2006. You'd have to pay for the issue or get it free with a 6 month sub. Jamie Kellner pulled the plug on a terminal patient. If WCW was such a great television property, Spike, a network that has aired wrestling for 13 years now, would have offered something better than 10pm Saturdays for a WCW show. e: That being said, I love Bischoff's book because it's full of nonsense. On any given page there's a 95% chance he pushes blame on others or attacks dirtsheets for no reason.
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Jan 17, 2013 07:37
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Satire Forum Mom posted:Is this in an old Observer? I want to read it. October - December of 2006. Some of the info in the OP comes from those issues. If Cornwind or anyone who has read the book has questions about the veracity of stuff in it from the period Bischoff takes over WCW until the Fingerpoke/near network deal with NBC in January of 99 I can look through the articles and see if Dave covers it. Unfortunately he stopped right before things fell apart completely.
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Jan 17, 2013 07:38
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UltimoDragonQuest posted:That being said, I love Bischoff's book because it's full of nonsense. On any given page there's a 95% chance he pushes blame on others or attacks dirtsheets for no reason. If I was being attacked day in and day out no matter what I did, I think I'd get sick of it too and start being unable to see my own faults/shove blame elsewhere.
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Jan 17, 2013 08:10
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Cornwind Evil posted:If I was being attacked day in and day out no matter what I did, I think I'd get sick of it too and start being unable to see my own faults/shove blame elsewhere. His grand plan to make the WCW title mean something was Jarrett laying down at Bash at the Beach 2000 and Hogan storming off. This represented the fourth time the title was vacated since Eric returned in April, a period in which David Arquette's 12 day reign was longer than 6 others. Hogan was supposed to return at Halloween Havoc unpromoted to beat the winner of a title tournament. Eric didn't bother to identify the other man he planned to use for the culmination of a 3 month angle. He squandered Bret Hart, knowing the nWo invasion of WWF guys was the biggest angle of the decade, then blamed Bret's lack of passion. He never gave a chance to four elite talents in Jericho, Mysterio, Guerrero, and Benoit. He makes a big deal that Time Warner censors were kneecapping him while WWF got to do all sorts of edgy stuff. Nobody ever complained that WCW television sucked because Raw was edgier. They had lovely writing and Bischoff never created a draw other than Goldberg.
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Jan 17, 2013 09:34
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The WWE's revisionist history will, of course, always favor Raw and the WWF, and make sure to emphasize all the bad sides of WCW, but I remember how it was back then. Two things stood out: the WWF looked better, their production was better, and they emphasized every match and made every title seem important. WCW had the cruiserweights, and that's what got me hooked, plus the in-ring work was superior, but it was all poorly produced compared to the WWF, plus the new guys you wanted to see become top superstars never got their chance. And this is speaking as a European viewer, I didn't get any Monday night war - Saturday Night was on Thursdays, Nitro was on Fridays and Saturdays, Raw was on Saturdays... on a whole bunch of channels. I never saw Raw VS Nitro, them going head-to-head, and that didn't even seem so important, but now I see it presented as the most important aspect of that whole era. Bischoff can defend himself all he wants, and guys like Nash can make smartass comments and point out AOL and Time Warner as crucial factors, but the most important factor in WCW's demise and the WWE's current reign is Vince McMahon. He invested everything in a company that was, well, everything to him. And he was an active player, you'd see him on TV every week, and his family. That is determination, the kind you have when your only option is to survive. Bischoff will always be just a producer, and he wanted to become a bigshot producer via wrestling, but lacked the knowledge. McMahon had the knowledge, and he worked his rear end off, that't why he won in the end. WCW obviously had a lot of good stuff to offer, which is why people are still analyzing it. I guess many of us feel WCW was taken away from us without a proper send-off.
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Jan 17, 2013 15:04
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Do any of you honestly believe that if you put Jericho, Mysterio, Benoit and Eddie in WWF instead of WCW in the same time period that they would be treated any better?
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Jan 17, 2013 15:14
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MassRayPer posted:Bischoff's book is basically 100% bullshit. I tried re-reading it a few months ago, but I had to close it almost immediately. One of the first things he says is that "cool heels" shouldn't be in wrestling, and he criticizes HHH (I think) for having a great entrance theme, leather jacket, cool look & lighting, etc. The man who created the nWo says wrestling shouldn't have cool heels.
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Jan 17, 2013 15:14
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