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The numbers simply refer to a different mix of alloys. I prefer A2/D2 (both air hardening) because they experience less distortion and growth during heat treatment and subsequent quenching. They also have superior physical properties. Plus the ability to wrap air hardening steels in stanless foil to keep oxygen out prevents decarburization which is a pain in the rear end. You cannot do this with oil hardening steels because the stainless wrap will prevent the quenching medium(oil) from doing its job, so you have to let the oxygen attack the part.
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Jan 12, 2013 00:15
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QPZIL posted:For my budget forge (for heat-treating) You don't need a forge if all you're doing is heat-treating. You can do this with just a torch and, if you like, an oven that goes up to 500 degrees F or so.
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Jan 12, 2013 01:14
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QPZIL posted:Well I'll be. If you really want to know more about bladesmithing I really must recommend This book, it has a lot of information on the topic, though primarily the forging of knives, not stock removal which you seem to angling towards. It also includes a lot of info on the different steels and their heat treating and tempering temperatures. Also there's Bladeforums which tends to specialize in this sort of thing as well, you can find the intro thread to knifemaking Here though some of the links are dead or out of date.
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Jan 12, 2013 01:51
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Chauncey posted:The numbers simply refer to a different mix of alloys. I prefer A2/D2 (both air hardening) because they experience less distortion and growth during heat treatment and subsequent quenching. They also have superior physical properties. Plus the ability to wrap air hardening steels in stanless foil to keep oxygen out prevents decarburization which is a pain in the rear end. You cannot do this with oil hardening steels because the stainless wrap will prevent the quenching medium(oil) from doing its job, so you have to let the oxygen attack the part. I'd strongly advise against air-hardening steels for beginning knifemaking, they have very specific requirements for tempering and general hardness control that don't apply to other steels, and the lessons learned with air-hardening steels transfer quite poorly over to other more traditional alloys. And the distortion doesn't really matter for knives- you don't care about tolerances with a blade, really, unless it's a planer blade or something else requiring Actual Specific Dimensions. Warping and stuff does matter, but that's something you learn to control during the quench. I'd suggest starting with a simple 10-series higher-carbon steel; it'll move very cooperatively under the hammer and won't throw any weird curveballs at you that fancy alloys do, like red hardness or chromium precipitation or rigorous heat-treatment requirements. Start with the basics, you'll still be able to make wonderful functional stuff without stainless steel foil or any of that nonsense. [/oldfogie] Ambrose Burnside fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Jan 12, 2013 |
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Jan 12, 2013 03:27
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Need your help metal goons. I'm buying cast reproduction parts for an old wood lathe. Here is a picture of what I'll be getting and the bottom is what it needs to be milled into. The banjo (L shaped tool rest holder) needs to be drilled to accept the tool rest post (T shaped thing) which also must be milled. The knob must be drilled and tapped for a 3/4 to 1" bolt. The guy offered to do it for an additional $30 but saving $$ is the name of the game if possible. The bad news is all I have are several bench grinders and a wood lathe but no drill press (I might be able to use someone elses). Do I have any hope of doing this myself or should I just pay him the bucks? Alternately, any Raleigh area goons willing to help? The bottom tool rest is from a bigger lathe which is why it's longer.
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Jan 13, 2013 00:30
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wormil posted:Need your help metal goons. I'm buying cast reproduction parts for an old wood lathe. Here is a picture of what I'll be getting and the bottom is what it needs to be milled into. The banjo (L shaped tool rest holder) needs to be drilled to accept the tool rest post (T shaped thing) which also must be milled. The knob must be drilled and tapped for a 3/4 to 1" bolt. The guy offered to do it for an additional $30 but saving $$ is the name of the game if possible. The bad news is all I have are several bench grinders and a wood lathe but no drill press (I might be able to use someone elses). Do I have any hope of doing this myself or should I just pay him the bucks? Alternately, any Raleigh area goons willing to help?
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Jan 13, 2013 00:55
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Dongsmith posted:$30 sounds like a bargain to me. Thanks. Dongsmith posted:...your time would have to be pretty cheap for you to beat that. Time in my shop is invaluable and I don't mind spending it. This is something I would do for myself if possible because it's part of the restoration of an old machine and I'm enjoying it. Saving money is part of the game but unfortunately buying reproduction parts is necessary because these lathes were never numerous.
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Jan 13, 2013 02:58
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Yeah for real Wormil, thirty bucks to get all that done is a loving crazy deal. Jump on it. Today was the monthly meeting for my local guild. We spent the day at the incredible shop of one mister Mike Nieckar of Starburn ironworks (http://www.starburn.ca). They're in a renovated and upgraded 1920s dairy barn, it's an amazing space, and the guy is incredibly talented and friendly. I grabbed a few shots from his shop and sample room. 100 pound little giant, he's added a brake to the flywheel so he can stop it very easily. At least, I don't think they came stock on these machines. Great for changing tooling.  Forge the size of a volkswagen.  He's made some really neat looking bowls on his press (at least I think that's how he did these).   Art pieces to fill a brick arch.   Sample workpieces.       All of the gold coloured stuff on here is brushed on brass, from a soft brush. It astounds me how he got it so even. The leaves are copper.    This is an Alberta trademark wildrose. You could never put this outside, some hobo would steal it in an instant.   Neat little fences.  This split twist thing on the right is awesome, I want to try that.  I really like this wheat stalk.  Bears, wolves, lions. All kinds of animal heads.   Gorgeous damascus billets.  Knives.  An awesome day. Man, I wish I had the talent that this guy has.
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Jan 13, 2013 07:54
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daaaaaaaang
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Jan 13, 2013 16:05
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That is absolutely beautiful. I wonder how he made the wheat? It looks like it is some kind of interlocked spiral. The weather warmed up here in Buffalo and I fired up the forge! I made a flux spoon, the part I'm really happiest with is the handle. I'm digging the way the taper turned out; I was inspired to work on my tapering, so I made two more tapers.  I've been keeping an eye out for files on craigslist, I knew I wanted some better ones than my current "CHINA" brand. Saw a box of files online, guy said there were maybe 40 files in it. Price was right, but the guy was incorrect on the count. Including the very small, round, triangular etc. files there were 87 in the box and only a handful of them need anything more than a quick brush and maybe a wipe with a clean cloth. All Simonds except for 2 Nicholsons. 
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Jan 14, 2013 05:21
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Uncle Enzo posted:That is absolutely beautiful. I wonder how he made the wheat? It looks like it is some kind of interlocked spiral. Nicholsons are my favorite brand for burr removal from machining, just set them in an acid bath for a while to sharpen them, I'm sure you can find a guide online somewhere.
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Jan 14, 2013 05:51
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Uncle Enzo posted:That is absolutely beautiful. I wonder how he made the wheat? It looks like it is some kind of interlocked spiral. I think that's right. You can see the forge weld at the very tip, then it splits out into two branches made of separate "braids", then welded again at the stalk. Maybe I'll get a mapp torch and try localized heating for braiding stuff like that, there are so many applications for that. Sweet find on the files, and good job on the handle man. Did you burn your glove? 
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Jan 14, 2013 07:06
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Hi guys! Posted in the Ask/Tell general questions thread and was directed here, hopefully you guys know; I was wondering if anyone knows what this is - was found on old family land in the ... smithy I suppose. Estimated at a little over 100 years old if that helps. Cast iron.   Thanks either way!
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Jan 14, 2013 09:34
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Oh, wow. I haven't seen a Hypotransmogrifying Deuteronimator in, like, forever. It's basically an anti-gravity device. Sorry, it's just a window weight. The worst possible mix of cast iron ever, because they threw in anything that was heavy and looked like iron. Edit: I'll bet it weighs about 5 pounds, too. 
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Jan 14, 2013 13:59
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Confirming 5 lb window weight. E: Find another and make a bitchin' set of nun-chucks for when you have an awkward teenage nerdling.
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Jan 14, 2013 18:17
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One Legged Ninja posted:Oh, wow. I haven't seen a Hypotransmogrifying Deuteronimator in, like, forever. It's basically an anti-gravity device. Random Number posted:Confirming 5 lb window weight. Exactly what these 2 said. It will be very brittle and you couldn't use it for anything other than a weight. Don't try machining it/welding it/forging it. You will waste your time and possibly get injured. I was told a story about a guy burning the crap out of himself by trying to forge one of these and not knowing it was cast, and he had little tiny bits of hot iron stuck all over his arms after the first hit.
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Jan 15, 2013 05:48
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Thanks guys. Dad wants to clean it up - what would be the best/least blinding pain inducing way of doing so? I vaguely remember him mentioning a wire brush grinder head - that shouldn't cause it to fly to pieces and impale the next door neighbour should it?
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Jan 15, 2013 12:31
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Look up electrolysis rust removal. There are hundreds of videos and step by step pages. It'll get into all the little corners, only take off the rust, plus you get to play with electricity. Just a light wire brushing when you're done will clean it up nicely. It makes me chuckle, though, because I've scrapped hundreds of these things. I suppose some day there will be an archeologist who digs one up and contemplates the ancient hieroglyphics cast into the primative and crudely made weapon. "Ancient man must have been terrifically strong in order to swing a weapon that weighs 27 blarfnats every day in search of food."
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Jan 15, 2013 15:09
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Shimrod posted:Thanks guys. Dad wants to clean it up ...
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Jan 16, 2013 04:49
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I'm poo poo with hand files (I need the practice) but what do you guys use in lieu of a 60" belt grinder? I've thought about getting a small belt sander and getting appropriately-gritted belts, since I'm only working on small blades. I have a wheel grinder for sharpening, but since I don't have the :tenbux: for a dedicated grinder or a kit to make said grinder, I'm looking at other options.
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Jan 16, 2013 04:53
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I just use a 4x36 or 32, I can never remember which, belt sander. It was like 50 bucks and does the job well enough. Probably get a used one pretty cheap, and the belts aren't that bad, price wise.
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Jan 16, 2013 05:02
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Dongsmith posted:Whyyyyyyyyyyy Not entirely sure myself to be honest. He's on some family tree journey of discovery and that and a bunch of other stuff came from some old family land and I guess he wants to restore it or something. He's 95% retired and bored shitless is my guess. Thanks for all the info guys!
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Jan 16, 2013 13:53
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I decided to start a stock-removal knife project last night to get a feel for working with metal before I start an all-forged blade. My fiancee had already gone to bed so I couldn't use my angle grinder, and decided to just use a hand file and a coping saw and plenty of oil. After 2-3 hours, I have maybe 60% of the basic removal done and my hands hurt to hell and back  Oh god I can't wait to use my grinder today.
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Jan 16, 2013 14:27
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QPZIL posted:I decided to start a stock-removal knife project last night to get a feel for working with metal before I start an all-forged blade. My fiancee had already gone to bed so I couldn't use my angle grinder, and decided to just use a hand file and a coping saw and plenty of oil. God bless you, child, for not skipping straight to power tools. Filing gives you a good intuitive feel for the comparative hardness of various metals that you completely miss with grinders. If you have a brass hammer or bits of copper on hand, file those, and be amazed by the butter-softness compared to steel. Then try filing, say, a chisel or punch, and gasp aloud at the file slipping off it like glass.
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Jan 16, 2013 17:12
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Ambrose Burnside posted:God bless you, child, for not skipping straight to power tools. Filing gives you a good intuitive feel for the comparative hardness of various metals that you completely miss with grinders. If you have a brass hammer or bits of copper on hand, file those, and be amazed by the butter-softness compared to steel. Then try filing, say, a chisel or punch, and gasp aloud at the file slipping off it like glass. A YouTube video I saw said, "I talked to a knife maker and he told me that a person's first knife needs to be made entirely by hand, some like way-of-the-samurai poo poo." I echo his sentiment.
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Jan 16, 2013 17:18
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Ambrose Burnside posted:God bless you, child, for not skipping straight to power tools. Filing gives you a good intuitive feel for the comparative hardness of various metals that you completely miss with grinders. If you have a brass hammer or bits of copper on hand, file those, and be amazed by the butter-softness compared to steel. Then try filing, say, a chisel or punch, and gasp aloud at the file slipping off it like glass. This, for life. My current apprentice project is to file a straight peen hammer from a block of A2, I'll try to get some photos when it's a little further along.
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Jan 16, 2013 18:34
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Just a reminder guys: Hot metal can look exactly like cold metal. Today I burned the poo poo out of all the fingers on my left hand. I am off work for the rest of the day. This pain sucks.
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Jan 16, 2013 20:13
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The Proc posted:This, for life. My current apprentice project is to file a straight peen hammer from a block of A2, I'll try to get some photos when it's a little further along. Wow, filing a hammer from a plain block sounds like it'll take forever but man, would it be worth it.I'm actually feeling pretty dumb, the steel I used for my first knife project turns out to be "weld steel", which as far as I can tell is basically the pig scraps of the steel world. Eh, it's okay for a throwaway piece to learn the ropes on I guess. I have a bar of 1084 coming from Aldo Bruno as we speak though.
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Jan 16, 2013 20:26
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Brekelefuw posted:Just a reminder guys: A very good thing to be mindful of. If I'm unsure I'll hold my hand close to a piece for a moment to feel for heat, and maybe give it a quick tap, before grabbing it full on. The one that often gets me is not the workpeice itself, but tools that have been in contact with it. Also, one of the (numerous) reasons many smiths don't wear gloves is because they get you in the habit of just grabbing things without considering heat. I fell victim to that one rearranging some bricks on my forge. But that's what the slack tub is there for, right?
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Jan 16, 2013 20:46
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I grabbed the trombone I was working on, because I had set my bench on fire and needed to move it to blow out the flames. What I didn't know is that the inside of the trombone bell was full of fire and the metal had gotten very hot. Half a seconds worth of touching it was all it took. I then had to move the bell again, making sure to touch a cold spot, so I could put out my bench. I think what had happened is that I was heating the bell from the underside, and the acetylene gas collected inside the bell, causing it to make a bigger flame than normal. I was using a very small flame from the torch because the soldering job was quite small.
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Jan 16, 2013 21:09
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Oh since somebody was shopping for files, keep an eye on eBay for older US production Nicholson. The new Mexican ones are the shittiest tools I've ever used in my life and Harbor Freight would be embarrassed to sell them.
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Jan 16, 2013 22:37
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People lose their poo poo when they see me refuse gloves when I'm blacksmithing, and it's like, trust me, I saw a dude totter across the forge towards the quench bucket with both gloves on fire twice in fifteen minutes, and, AND, you can`t really do the "hover hand over metal to gauge temperature" thing worth a drat with gloves, which actively makes things much more dangerous.
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Jan 17, 2013 00:33
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QPZIL posted:Wow, filing a hammer from a plain block sounds like it'll take forever Live and learn, I just started my first knife this evening. Unfortunately some of the steel I got from Aldo was a bit bent, I'm puzzling out the best way to straighten it. Also I too am learning that a file doesn't take off nearly as much material as I'd hoped. This might take awhile.
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Jan 17, 2013 00:56
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Brekelefuw posted:Just a reminder guys: Did you leave a significant portion of your fingerprint skin on the brass?
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Jan 17, 2013 02:11
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Slung Blade posted:Did you leave a significant portion of your fingerprint skin on the brass? Thankfully not this time, but there was a time when I was back in school that I had to buff my own skin off of a trumpet after burning myself so badly.
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Jan 17, 2013 02:22
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Brekelefuw posted:Thankfully not this time, but there was a time when I was back in school that I had to buff my own skin off of a trumpet after burning myself so badly. I'm glad you have your finger pads but I am sorry that you hurt yourself so badly man  My shop teacher did that once. I was making something out of aluminium on a tiny little CNC lathe in class. I was watching it, and as soon as it was done, dude came over, opened the little plexiglass lid, and grabbed the piece. Poor guy spent 10 minutes running water over his fingers, and I had to spend a while sanding his fingerprints off my project.
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Jan 17, 2013 05:48
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I'm trying to drill hardened steel of a cheap torx screwdriver to convert a T20 into a T20 secure torx, and the drill bits aren't doing anything. Is softening the steel enough to drill it really as easy as the internets says and just heat the tip to cherry and allow to air cool? New titanium drill bits around 3/32 if that matters at all.
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Jan 20, 2013 07:17
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Fire Storm posted:I'm trying to drill hardened steel of a cheap torx screwdriver to convert a T20 into a T20 secure torx, and the drill bits aren't doing anything. Is softening the steel enough to drill it really as easy as the internets says and just heat the tip to cherry and allow to air cool? You ain't drillin' poo poo if it's hardened. Sorry. E: You could sink a carbide 3/32 endmill into it, with flood coolant and 0.01" cuts.
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Jan 20, 2013 23:23
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My home forge is working great, except that I've shorted out two hair dryers now What else can I use as an inexpensive blower? My dad has a spare foot air pump, that might work, and won't make my lightheaded like blowing into the tube was doing. Heh. With no air, my metal only got hot enough to... slightly mushroom it out when I was trying to make the end of a bar into a tang. Random Number posted:You ain't drillin' poo poo if it's hardened. Sorry. Even if he heated it to non-magnetic and cooled it in a sand or ash bath? Would that anneal it to the point of being able to drill into it?
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Jan 21, 2013 01:42
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QPZIL posted:Even if he heated it to non-magnetic and cooled it in a sand or ash bath? Would that anneal it to the point of being able to drill into it? It would probably drill at that point, but is it really worth the trouble when a T20 secure torx bit is about $1.50?
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Jan 21, 2013 01:52
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