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Bloody Hedgehog
Dec 12, 2003

💥💥🤯💥💥
Gotta nuke something
Just got my new Dell S2740L to replace my aging Samsung, and it's a drat nice monitor for the price. The U2713HM was drat tempting, but gaming at 2560+ pixel resolutions can be dicy on a single GPU, so I went with the cheaper 1080p model. Great panel though, good color and angles, I'd definitely recommend it for anyone looking for a good quality cheaper 1080p panel.

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existential anger
Jun 4, 2012

EightBit posted:

the ASUS PB278Q (PLS, but it's pretty similar performance to IPS) has a slightly over-aggressive overdrive too. I wouldn't say it's extreme, but noticeable if you are tracking a moving object without moving the viewpoint in a game.

All higher end Asus monitors tend to have something called trace-free, which gives you 5 different overdrive settings of varying aggressiveness. If you set trace-free to 40, there shouldn't be any reverse ghosting. In fact, its pretty much the best performance going you're going to get from a 60hz monitor.

EightBit
Jan 7, 2006
I spent money on this line of text just to make the "Stupid Newbie" go away.

existential anger posted:

All higher end Asus monitors tend to have something called trace-free, which gives you 5 different overdrive settings of varying aggressiveness. If you set trace-free to 40, there shouldn't be any reverse ghosting. In fact, its pretty much the best performance going you're going to get from a 60hz monitor.

I hadn't thought to even mess with that setting :downs: or read the manual, just went through color calibration.

Guni
Mar 11, 2010
Do any of the ultrasharps (particularly U2412HM and U2312HM) play sound? So if I were to play a game could I hear sound? Or do you need the sound bar?

TheRationalRedditor
Jul 17, 2000

WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.
They don't have speakers, if that's what you're asking (in the weirdest way possible).

Guni
Mar 11, 2010

Glen Goobersmooches posted:

They don't have speakers, if that's what you're asking (in the weirdest way possible).

Haha, that is what I meant! I'm stupid...

Fake James
Aug 18, 2005

Y'all got any more of that plastic?
Buglord
What is everyone's opinion on the LG IPS235V? Trying to help a friend find a good 23" IPS and he was looking at LG's stock.

TKE248
Oct 8, 2004
Has anyone seen the new 27-Inch 2560x1440 Monitor for $390 monoprice unveiled as CES? Seems like a good deal and uses the same display that apple is using!

http://www.combobulate.com/monopricedeal

Fauxtool
Oct 21, 2008

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
it got posted a few pages back

Shmoogy posted:

Monoprice is now offering one of the Korean monitors for sale- a slight premium but if you don't want to have to ship back to Korea in the event of a problem, and don't have a Microcenter nearby, it's probably going to be nice.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=113&cp_id=11307&cs_id=1130703&p_id=9579&seq=1&format=1#largeimage&ref=cj

Fake James
Aug 18, 2005

Y'all got any more of that plastic?
Buglord
Well poo poo, I decided to return my U2412M through Best Buy because the bezel was warped on the bottom right corner, allowing the power button light to shine through onto the screen a little bit. Unfortunately for some reason they couldn't get a direct exchange to go through for an online purchase, and by the time the refund went back into my account the price went up. Anyone know of a good place currently running a sale on the U2412M?

Edit: Do refurbished Ultrasharps have a 3-year warranty, or does that only apply to brand spankin' new ones?

Fake James fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Jan 15, 2013

Kilazar
Mar 23, 2010
I am looking at a PC refresh for my wife and I. And was thinking of buying the recomended Asus VG236H. But I don't see any that actually advertise that these are 120mhz refresh.

The ones I have found are here.
http://www.amazon.com/ASUS-VH236H-23-Inch-Full-HD-Monitor/dp/B002453K5G/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1358366260&sr=8-3&keywords=Asus+VG236H

http://www.asus.com/Monitors_Projectors/VG236H/#specifications



Now the VG236HE does show 120. Is this perhaps a typo in the suggestion post?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824236184&Tpk=VG236H



I am also looking at http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824236305
Unfortunately there is no feedback on it. Does anyone have an opinion on this particular unit?

Kilazar fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Jan 16, 2013

EightBit
Jan 7, 2006
I spent money on this line of text just to make the "Stupid Newbie" go away.

Kilazar posted:

I am looking at a PC refresh for my wife and I. And was thinking of buying the recomended Asus VG236H. But I don't see any that actually advertise that these are 120mhz refresh.

The ones I have found are here.
http://www.amazon.com/ASUS-VH236H-23-Inch-Full-HD-Monitor/dp/B002453K5G/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1358366260&sr=8-3&keywords=Asus+VG236H

http://www.asus.com/Monitors_Projectors/VG236H/#specifications



Now the VG236HE does show 120. Is this perhaps a typo in the suggestion post?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824236184&Tpk=VG236H



I am also looking at http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824236305
Unfortunately there is no feedback on it. Does anyone have an opinion on this particular unit?

Here are Newegg's 120Hz monitors:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...h=1&srchInDesc=

Why is 120Hz the important factor for you? These monitors are all TN panels and doomed to terrible viewing angles and color reproduction; unless you're a twitch-shooter gamer I can't see a good reason to absolutely only get a 120Hz monitor.

butt dickus
Jul 7, 2007

top ten juiced up coaches
and the top ten juiced up players

EightBit posted:

Why is 120Hz the important factor for you? These monitors are all TN panels and doomed to terrible viewing angles and color reproduction; unless you're a twitch-shooter gamer I can't see a good reason to absolutely only get a 120Hz monitor.
Is having a 120Hz monitor enough to view Blu-rays at 24fps or is there still some pulldown dickery involved?

Kilazar
Mar 23, 2010

EightBit posted:

Here are Newegg's 120Hz monitors:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...h=1&srchInDesc=

Why is 120Hz the important factor for you? These monitors are all TN panels and doomed to terrible viewing angles and color reproduction; unless you're a twitch-shooter gamer I can't see a good reason to absolutely only get a 120Hz monitor.

I mostly play FPS's on the PC, so I guess I can be factored into twich shooters. Mostly I really hate screen tearing at high framerates. Though the price point for the 120's is making me think I might not care so much. Unless it can be confirmed that VG236H in the OP actually is 120. Because I can get that one on amazon for $179.

Fake James
Aug 18, 2005

Y'all got any more of that plastic?
Buglord
So, while waiting for my replacement u2412m to arrive (Best Buy's customer service is great, ya'lls) I read some past pages in this thread. Saw someone mention that if you are sensitive to low PWM you might have a problem with this monitor. Curious if anyone has a layman's definition of what that is and what you would feel if you are sensitive to it, as I did feel some initial nausea when using the monitor but I couldn't tell if was just from the change in size and really high brightness.

Factory Factory
Mar 19, 2010

This is what
Arcane Velocity was like.
Screen tearing is a GPU-side problem, involving vsync and buffering methods. Turn on Vsync.

EightBit
Jan 7, 2006
I spent money on this line of text just to make the "Stupid Newbie" go away.

Doctor rear end in a top hat posted:

Is having a 120Hz monitor enough to view Blu-rays at 24fps or is there still some pulldown dickery involved?

Theoretically, each frame of the 24fps movie would be displayed 5 times at 120Hz.

Factory Factory posted:

Screen tearing is a GPU-side problem, involving vsync and buffering methods. Turn on Vsync.

Yeah, unless you have Vsync on (you may have to force it in driver settings to actually make it work, some games try to implement their own bullshit Vsync that doesn't actually work), you will have tearing. Depending on how lovely the game you are playing is, it may or may not actually use triple-buffering and you'll get a framerate hit if your machine can't render frames fast enough. Solution: buy a really badass PC. Making it worse: buying a 2560x1440 monitor :suicide:.

Dr. Lenin posted:

So, while waiting for my replacement u2412m to arrive (Best Buy's customer service is great, ya'lls) I read some past pages in this thread. Saw someone mention that if you are sensitive to low PWM you might have a problem with this monitor. Curious if anyone has a layman's definition of what that is and what you would feel if you are sensitive to it, as I did feel some initial nausea when using the monitor but I couldn't tell if was just from the change in size and really high brightness.

PWM brightness control means that instead of reducing the continuous brightness of the backlight, the backlight is flickered at 100% to reduce light output. Depending on the frequency of pulses, some people experience eye strain, headaches, and nausea. You can test if it is causing you problems by turning up the brightness all the way and comparing to the reduced brightness setting.

EightBit fucked around with this message at 00:42 on Jan 17, 2013

TheRationalRedditor
Jul 17, 2000

WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

Dr. Lenin posted:

So, while waiting for my replacement u2412m to arrive (Best Buy's customer service is great, ya'lls) I read some past pages in this thread. Saw someone mention that if you are sensitive to low PWM you might have a problem with this monitor. Curious if anyone has a layman's definition of what that is and what you would feel if you are sensitive to it, as I did feel some initial nausea when using the monitor but I couldn't tell if was just from the change in size and really high brightness.
It was me recently. My eyes begin to ache after about 20 minutes of continuous usage with occasional mild headache-like accompaniment. It wasn't unbearable or blinding or anything, but I was never completely comfortable using it for long stretches of time like my old Samsung 226BW (which I'm using again). You should never be able to "feel" your eyes when computing comfortably.

It's really difficult to find PWM stats on monitors even though I've found it's now one of the most crucial considerations I have to make when shopping for a new one. I'm trying to figure out which of the Korean 27" IPS brandings don't use it, but I can't find anything concrete.

TheRationalRedditor fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Jan 17, 2013

Fake James
Aug 18, 2005

Y'all got any more of that plastic?
Buglord

Glen Goobersmooches posted:

It was me recently. My eyes begin to ache after about 20 minutes of continuous usage with occasional mild headache-like accompaniment. It wasn't unbearable or blinding or anything, but I was never completely comfortable using it for long stretches of time like my old Samsung 226BW (which I'm using again). You should never be able to "feel" your eyes when computing comfortably.

It's really difficult to find PWM stats on monitors even though I've found it's now one of the most crucial considerations I have to make when shopping for a new one. I'm trying to figure out which of the Korean 27" IPS brandings don't use it, but I can't find anything concrete.

I did feel some discomfort with the first one I had, but I figured it was because I was going from a 17" 4:3 to a 24" 16:10. I also only lowered the brightness to around 50 or 55 so maybe the shift in size and brightness was what strained my eyes.

It's hard to adjust to how big the U2412M is compared to my old Dell 1704FPT. The lil guy has held strong for more than 7 years now, it's time for him to retire (to being a secondary monitor).

Fake James fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Jan 17, 2013

TheRationalRedditor
Jul 17, 2000

WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.
That was my first suspicion but then I got to researching online and PWM made more sense. I brought my brightness levels down to 35 or so and the symptoms would still occur. The strobing effects of PWM actually get worse the dimmer the display goes, the "opposite" of being blinded by the light.

There are a few tests with camera shutter speed you can do, or even just waving your flat open palm back and forth in front of your screen and seeing if vision distorts in a certain way. All the sensations you're describing are consistent with PWM reactions, and besides that Dell's models that actually employ PWM are notorious for not having a very good "refresh" frequency. You can get along with PWM flicker if it runs at a high enough Hz (350+ I think), but IIRC the only common display on the market currently like that is the HP ZR2X40w series.

ToastyX
Mar 15, 2004
N
yaaarrr!

Kilazar posted:

I am looking at a PC refresh for my wife and I. And was thinking of buying the recomended Asus VG236H. But I don't see any that actually advertise that these are 120mhz refresh.
...
Now the VG236HE does show 120. Is this perhaps a typo in the suggestion post?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824236184&Tpk=VG236H
They are both 120 Hz. The VG236HE is just the VG236H without the 3D Vision kit.



Kilazar posted:

I am also looking at http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824236305
Unfortunately there is no feedback on it. Does anyone have an opinion on this particular unit?
That's just a standard 60 Hz TN monitor. I don't see the point of getting that one.

Auron
Jan 10, 2002
<img alt="" border="0" src="https://fi.somethingawful.com/customtitles/title-auron.jpg"/><br/>Drunken Robot Rage

I just received my Korean made Achieva Shimian QH270-Lite, here's a short review! This is one of the supposed "perfect pixel" models that you pay $10 more for.
Ordering/Shipping
I ordered from RedCap on Ebay for $329.99 with free shipping on Saturday night, the monitor shipped early Monday morning from Korea and was received Wednesday afternoon via Fedex :drat:. The monitor is packaged just like any other big brand monitor, very well protected in styrofoam.

Thoughts
Starting off, you need a regular America power cable to go into the Korean power brick which is no biggie. The stand is a little flimsy and cheap, but I didn't really expect much for such a cheap panel. The monitor itself is glossy, but it doesn't have the glass layer to make it look ultra-glossy like the Apple Cinema displays. Reflections are minimal for a glossy screen.

After running a dead pixel test, the monitor was truly pixel perfect with only a small amount of backlight bleed in the lower left hand corner. The monitor only comes with blacklight adjustments, so I loaded up a pre-made color calibration profile and all I have to say is "Wow". This is my first IPS panel, and my first 2560x1440 monitor and it is truly amazing.

Conclusion
I was really pleasantly surprised by how great of a deal these Korean panels are and would HIGHLY recommend them to anyone looking at a 2560x1440 IPS display on the cheap.

Fake James
Aug 18, 2005

Y'all got any more of that plastic?
Buglord
Replacement U2412M arrived. Yay! Wait... what's this faint yellow glow coming from both the bottom left corner and the top right - ah poo poo. :( Do backlight bleeds ever... fade out or go away on their own?

Also, anyone else who owns this monitor - does the bezel seem to not be as tight fitting or 'sturdy' as other monitors? It seems slightly warped or loose around certain parts. My last one was like that as well, so I can't tell if its being warped from shipping in cold weather or if its just bad design.

I really don't want to have to keep exchanging this thing...

Edit: Apparently the model number on this one is "u2412mb". Does that extra letter mean its a newer revision?

Fake James fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Jan 18, 2013

existential anger
Jun 4, 2012

EightBit posted:

Why is 120Hz the important factor for you? These monitors are all TN panels and doomed to terrible viewing angles and color reproduction.

That's definitely not true. IPS' main selling point is gamma stability/lack of gamma shift, something TN panels obviously have trouble with. If you don't notice the gamma shift, which can be difficult in movies and games, then there's no reason to believe that IPS monitors will have significantly better colour reproduction than "high end" TN monitors.

IPS monitors can have things like better lookup tables, hardware calibration, and more colour depth but all of that is irrelevant when it comes to low end eIPS monitors because they're all packing cheap electronics and 6 bit panels.

The bigger problem with TN monitors, namely gaming monitors, is the awful factory calibration most tend to come with. A properly calibrated TN monitor (you can get close by reading reviews) might even look better than a lot of eIPS monitors on the market because they typically have much better contrast and black depth than IPS monitors.

Dr. Lenin posted:

Edit: Apparently the model number on this one is "u2412mb. Does that extra letter mean its a newer revision?

I believe it stands for "black". I think I've seen a silver version floating around somewhere so that seems to be a good assumption to make.

existential anger fucked around with this message at 09:38 on Jan 18, 2013

EightBit
Jan 7, 2006
I spent money on this line of text just to make the "Stupid Newbie" go away.

existential anger posted:

That's definitely not true. IPS' main selling point is gamma stability/lack of gamma shift, something TN panels obviously have trouble with. If you don't notice the gamma shift, which can be difficult in movies and games, then there's no reason to believe that IPS monitors will have significantly better colour reproduction than "high end" TN monitors.

IPS monitors can have things like better lookup tables, hardware calibration, and more colour depth but all of that is irrelevant when it comes to low end eIPS monitors because they're all packing cheap electronics and 6 bit panels.

The bigger problem with TN monitors, namely gaming monitors, is the awful factory calibration most tend to come with. A properly calibrated TN monitor (you can get close by reading reviews) might even look better than a lot of eIPS monitors on the market because they typically have much better contrast and black depth than IPS monitors.

Poor factory calibration aside, you can't calibrate around a 6-bit panel. I also find the idea that a lovely cheap TN panel would have more effort put into the electronics, kinda shaky; TN panels compete on cheapness, trying to improve the dog-poo poo color reproduction by increasing the cost will basically mean that your display won't sell (people that care about that don't buy TN panels). Take a good IPS panel, calibrate it, look at all the nice colors, the subtlety of gradients, good subpixel font anti-aliasing. Then turn the color mode on your desktop to 16-bit. TN panels are only slightly better looking than that due to an extra bit on the red and blue channels, and temporal color dithering. The reason I sucked it up and shelled out for a big loving IPS monitor is that I was tired of seeing the effects of dithering and lovely viewing angles, something that TN panels are basically always going to have.

Having a wider contrast ratio and black depth is also not really as strong a point for TN panels as it seems at first, as the darker colors are going to be ruined by the downsampling forced by TN panels; it's just a simple matter of the digital math involved and darks being the least-significant bits, boom lost in quantization noise when it gets translated to fewer bits.

existential anger
Jun 4, 2012

All lower end IPS/PLS monitors are all 6 bit monitors that do dithering, just like TN monitors. These same monitors are all typically packing 8-bit LUTs that are accessed through the OSD, which is already nothing much to care about. A 10 bit LUT is almost essential for anything to be called a high end display and well, you're going to have to pay for that. And really, dithering is not a problem unless you purposely look for it on lagom.nl.

Even hobby photographers do fine on the entry level Dell Ultrasharps, which are just 6 bit + FRC eIPS monitors that pack 8 bit LUTs that can only be accessed through the OSD. And really, calibration on any of these monitors is going to introduce unwanted artifacts or banding simply because they're 6 bit monitors that aren't using complex hardware LUTs.

If I remember correctly, you bought the Asus PB278Q, which has a 8 bit panel and at least a 10 bit LUT. It is also basically $700 so you'd hope that it'd be packing some decent electronics. But lower end IPS monitors do not have any of this, which is why they're basically the same price as TN monitors these days.

Any calibration of a TN monitor is going to produce perfectly fine results: I've run an X-Rite i1 over some TN monitors and the end results are perfectly acceptable. Yes there will be banding, just like there would be banding on any entry level IPS monitor. The real problem with TN panels is, as I said, gamma shift, notably vertical gamma shift, and that automatically rules it out for people who need it for colour sensitive work. That are awful out-of-the-box calibration, often in the gamma department.

IPS itself isn't a magic bullet for accurate colours and smooth gradients. There's a very good reason why NEC and Eizo even try selling $1,000-$3,000 24" monitors.

Edit:
I should make myself clear. I'm not saying that IPS monitors are worse than TN monitors. Sorry to sperge but all I am saying is that people shouldn't be completely terrified of TN monitors because there are some really good ones out that can look extremely good so long you read some reviews and know which settings work best.

existential anger fucked around with this message at 12:08 on Jan 18, 2013

cliffy
Apr 12, 2002

Has anyone here obtained one of these: http://www.overlordcomputer.com/overlord_tempest_X270OC_display_p/ot_x270oc_a.htm by any chance? Does it work well? Can it actually do 120hz?

I know it's overkill, but I definitely like the silky smoothness of 120hz on another monitor I have. It would be a thing of beauty to have a 1440p 120hz IPS monitor.

Fake James
Aug 18, 2005

Y'all got any more of that plastic?
Buglord

existential anger posted:

I believe it stands for "black". I think I've seen a silver version floating around somewhere so that seems to be a good assumption to make.

Ah, that makes sense.

If anyone has an idea about my bezel warping issue, let me know. This is aggravating, I just want to get to enjoy widescreen from a non-defective product for once.

Fake James fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Jan 18, 2013

TheRationalRedditor
Jul 17, 2000

WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

cliffy posted:

Has anyone here obtained one of these: http://www.overlordcomputer.com/overlord_tempest_X270OC_display_p/ot_x270oc_a.htm by any chance? Does it work well? Can it actually do 120hz?

I know it's overkill, but I definitely like the silky smoothness of 120hz on another monitor I have. It would be a thing of beauty to have a 1440p 120hz IPS monitor.
It's a lottery, pretty much. I think they might assure the OC panel PCBs can do at least 95Hz, but Overlord specifically states YMMV in terms of ability to hit 120Hz.

That said, if you're gaming at all bear in mind you'd actually need the 2x/3x SLI GPU horsepower to drive 120FPS in High/Ultra settings. You might just be referring to the smoothest cinema mousing of all time, though!

existential anger posted:

The bigger problem with TN monitors, namely gaming monitors, is the awful factory calibration most tend to come with. A properly calibrated TN monitor...they typically have much better contrast and black depth than IPS monitors.
This is the opposite of everything I've ever read online on the topic, got anything reliable to support it?

Dr. Lenin posted:

Ah, that makes sense.

If anyone has an idea about my bezel warping issue, let me know. This is aggravating, I just want to get to enjoy widescreen from a non-defective product for once.
Bezel warping is one of the primary causes of BLB, but you should take some centered pictures in the dark on a black BG (or anything that seems like it's getting tinted) for a helpful appraisal.

existential anger
Jun 4, 2012

Glen Goobersmooches posted:

This is the opposite of everything I've ever read online on the topic, got anything reliable to support it?

Sorry to sperge.

Basically any proper review of any batch of TN and IPS monitors will generally tell you this. Its not always true, because there are a lot of good IPS monitors, but good TN monitors tend to be reliably consistent. I'll provide some examples:

Asus VG278HE has a contrast of 1100:1 - 1200:1, which is extremely good. It also covers 96% of the sRGB colour space, which is common amongst non-wide gamut monitors. The problem is its calibration out of the box:



With gamma like that, no wonder everything looks like poo poo. A lot of good TN monitors are pretty much the same. Very good contrast and very awful factory calibrations. The Benq XL2420 has the exact same problem. Contrast is very good but again the factory calibration is terrible. Contrast this with something like the Eizo FS2332 and its no surprise why IPS monitors tend to look better straight out of the box.

AH-IPS monitors seem to be consistently good and actually reaching their rated specs but they're not exactly common yet, especially in smaller 23" forms. Currently, more commonly found monitors can range from very good to OK but not great to extremely terrible even if they're apparently using A+ panels from LG. I won't even talk about older CCFL based monitors because, while most are very good overall, they have poor black levels.

I need to stress that I'm not saying IPS monitors are bad, I only use IPS monitors because no other LCD technology has no gamma shift and good viewing angles. But the complete fear some people have of good TN monitors is completely unwarranted because they're actually really good if you read a few proper reviews and know which settings work best. They have consistently good contrast and the good ones actually cover the sRGB colour space.

existential anger fucked around with this message at 14:51 on Jan 19, 2013

TheRationalRedditor
Jul 17, 2000

WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.
I've really never heard anything of TN monitors having better overall black depth than IPS models (especially not the Samsung ones I've personally used).

Isn't there more subtlety to contrast than just the raw ratio?

existential anger
Jun 4, 2012

Contrast is a ratio of the darkest blacks and brightest whites. When you run colourimeter software to measure contrast, most will flash whites and blacks and give you a ratio.

So its very relevant when talking about whites and blacks, especially since the graphs tell you what the brightness is at certain contrast figures. If one monitor has higher contrast than another monitor at the same brightness, then it must have better black depth at that brightness level.

Newer AH-IPS monitors seem to be very good but good TN monitors, well, actually tend to reach their rated figures near always while there's generally a bit of variance with IPS monitors. I can't prove this, unless you want me to dig through a whole lot of user and professional reviews but its just personal experience.

If I really want to be disingenuous, I could pull out every CCFL backlit IPS monitor because...well they're not good when it comes to black depth. Hell, I don't think any CCFL backlit monitor had good peak brightness or black depth.

If you want the formula, its just contrast ratio = brightness / black depth at that brightness level. Assuming contrast is stable across all brightness levels, high contrast suggests good black depth. OLEDs have basically infinite contrast for this reason.

existential anger fucked around with this message at 14:45 on Jan 19, 2013

Elentor
Dec 14, 2004

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
I'm a bit confused, you pretty much said something then showed graphs proving the opposite.

Color accuracy with TN monitors will never be better than IPS, if anything because of the viewing angles. You can calibrate that BenQ to perfection and the left of the screen won't look like the right. You seem to be basing your opinion on the fact that "well their factory calibration sucks but they have better contrast ratio" in which case I'm really not sure someone wants to pay SO MUCH for a monitor+calibration tool when they could have gotten a better IPS for similar or less, if you care about colors.

Contrast in my opinion is vastly overrated, not to mention misrepresented, and it's not like most real color-sensitive work demand huge contrast ratios. Especially since all that increase in contrast will do when it's not being debased by the viewing angles is making sure you notice steps of three (hell, sometimes four) pixels in that sweet 6-bit panel once it's calibrated and there's not much way out of it since everyone on the Internet with no understanding of color whatsoever seems convinced you can only see 10 million absolute color values.


Is 120/144 Hz worth the viewing angles and poor factory calibration? Maybe, for some it is. Hell, I have a TN especially for this. Is the contrast ratio increase worth it? Sorry, I'm gonna go with no, especially since you're not getting much good out of it without another $100-300 dollar investment on a colorimeter and saying "TNs have better color than IPS if you ignore this factory gigantic delta E variance, the viewing angles, the extra need for a colorimeter and accept it has some more contrast" is too much of a stretch.

Elentor fucked around with this message at 15:06 on Jan 19, 2013

existential anger
Jun 4, 2012

Colour accuracy can reach good enough levels that it doesn't matter. But that is completely irrelevant, one of the reasons I posted those graphs is not to show that the problem sinking TN monitors is not the colour accuracy but awful gamma presets. And you can fix those gamma presets (and often improve colour accuracy greatly) by reading reviews and by picking less awful settings that are typically quite good!

I thought I stressed this but I am not saying you can use TN monitors to do colour sensitive work. I stressed that vertical gamma shift automatically rules out TN monitors for colour sensitive work because they're completely unable to display whole blocks of colour evenly from the top of the screen to the bottom.

But for someone that is not doing colour sensitive work, why does it even matter? Even things like DeltaEs are just a meaningless figures to them. Its not like IPS monitors come out of the factory with particularly great colour accuracy unless the manufacturer specifically stresses factory calibration. You're kidding yourself if you think that's the case. If we're going to calibrate the two of them, deltaEs of both TN and IPS reach to levels that only professionals care about.

The colours are fine for movies and games, colour accuracy is not needed for any of these things. Black depth is good (even if you think its vastly overrated), colour space coverage is just as good as any budget IPS monitor, colour depth (which is pointless for most people since dithering is quite good these days) is pretty much the same since all low end IPS are 6 bit and using dithering, and motion performance is typically better.

I'll stop, sorry for sperging and derailing this thread. All I am saying is that there is no reason to be so phobic about TN monitors and believe that 120hz TN monitors are somehow trash to IPS monitors.

existential anger fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Jan 19, 2013

Elentor
Dec 14, 2004

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Yes, but a $500 dollar display + $200 colorimeter gets a bit out of range of the "cheap IPS monitors". To me, at least.

Besides, For someone not doing color sensitive work the contrast ratio doesn't matter either, so whatever advantage the TNs have in that aspect is pretty useless. Movies and most video compression or editing tend to cut the deepest black values. A messy gamma curve is often preferred and sometimes even added as a feature to increase our perception of dark details in games but, contrary to popular belief, this is not aided by having "deeper blacks". Most media is heavily compressed and, ironically enough, even all that those 1000000:1 DCR do is to compress the contrast at any given time. If we're gonna dismiss accuracy because we're talking about "people who don't care about colors" then all that contrast ratio is useless, detrimental even.

120hz TN monitors aren't trash and have their use. Like I said, I own a BenQ for gaming, but it's utterly insane to think you can get the image quality anywhere near a similar-priced IPS, especially if you're going for that $500 dollar range. It's clear that you have some special love for huge contrast ratios and hey, it's cool, I still miss my CRT, but a high CR doesn't automatically make a TN good.

Elentor fucked around with this message at 15:31 on Jan 19, 2013

existential anger
Jun 4, 2012

Hang on are you being serious?

Excessively high gamma at the start of the gamma curve is awful, why would you want a skewered gamma curve at all? Benq's settings for the XL2420 make the image look woeful in comparison to any monitor on the market, especially Samsung's 120hz monitors. It is literally the reason why many TVs, Samsung OLED phones, and monitors end up with crushed blacks where you can't differentiate different shades of black.

If a messy curve is preferred, my eyes must be lying to me and I should just throw out my colourimeter.

Glen Goobersmooches posted:

Elentor actually works in some aspect of professional visual design, so I'm gonna have to side with his POV.

And so do I, so its a pissing match.

existential anger fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Jan 19, 2013

TheRationalRedditor
Jul 17, 2000

WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.
Elentor purportedly works in some aspect of professional visual design, so I personally wouldn't doubt what he has to say (especially after that color banding explanation).

And if you do too, the difference is that he just seems better at explaining his side rationally.

TheRationalRedditor fucked around with this message at 15:48 on Jan 19, 2013

Elentor
Dec 14, 2004

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

existential anger posted:

Hang on are you being serious?

Excessively high gamma at the start of the gamma curve is awful, why would you want a skewered gamma curve at all? Benq's settings for the XL2420 make the image look woeful in comparison to any monitor on the market, especially Samsung's 120hz monitors. It is literally the reason why many TVs, Samsung OLED phones, and monitors end up with crushed blacks where you can't differentiate different shades of black.

I'm never saying you would want that, I'm saying that TN monitors that are not focused on color-accuracy tend to have modes for different gamma curves. Not that I'm condoning it, but it's a thing.

quote:

And so do I, so its a pissing match.

Yea if that's your argument, I'm out.

existential anger
Jun 4, 2012

Elentor posted:

I'm never saying you would want that, I'm saying that TN monitors that are not focused on color-accuracy tend to have modes for different gamma curves. Not that I'm condoning it, but it's a thing.

Fair enough, I get your point. Sorry about being snippy with you but it really did sound like you were suggesting that it was actually a good thing to have.

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Heran Bago
Aug 18, 2006



In Team Fortress 2 I get high frames per second most always above 120 but the tearing is awful. For this particular game though turning on Vsync creates input lag, and turning on fps limiting creates jittering.

Would a 120 Hz monitor help? If so would I need to Vsync at 120 for an appreciable difference?

e: Some serious research tells me yes, this is what I want.
I ended up getting a BenQ XL2420T based on gamer recommendations, reviews, stats, and price. I'll report back with my impressions next month.

Heran Bago fucked around with this message at 11:14 on Jan 22, 2013

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