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Even that close range transmission seems plenty tall enough for street and highway use.
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Jan 10, 2013 15:32
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Transmission purchased. I went with the wide ratio. Now I need to decide if a stock $240 aluminum bell housing will suffice, or if I should put a layer of steel between a spinning flywheel and the fiberglass floor pan for another $297. Seems like cheap insurance.
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Jan 10, 2013 21:46
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Ironically, I almost think that close ratio might be better for a 1/4 mile run if all other factors are the same. In both of my dad's fourthgen Z28s (mostly-stock '94 LT1, cam/longtube '01 LS1) with 3.42 rears and whatever the stock tire size was, the wide ratio would actually have the LT1 banging off the rev limiter through the traps in third. The LS1 did that too until he raised the third gear redline by a couple hundred RPM in the tune. But a turbo LS1 is going to have the power to swing pretty much whatever gears you want, especially in something relatively lightweight and aerodynamic. If I ever do a manual in my GMC I would probably do any option with the .63 sixth (or 4.11 rear gears) just because of the nature of pushing all of that frontal area at 80MPH. Edit: Do the SFI bellhousing. Aforementioned LS1 Camaro once rocketed a Centerforce clutch weight through the factory bellhousing.
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Jan 10, 2013 22:13
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No SFI bellhousing on this DSM. I like how a clutch of the clutch comes out through the hood. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1fElQbW8cs For your power levels, it will be worth it for safety.
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Jan 10, 2013 23:35
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I went with the Quicktime SFI housing. Obvious choice since the flywheel will be pretty much right at my shins with nothing but fiberglass to stop it. It all gets here next week and I can finally drop the engine in and take measurements for mounts. Can't wait. Also I REALLY hope I don't have to cut any fiberglass to fit (other than around the shifter, obviously).
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Jan 11, 2013 02:27
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I was going to say, Dizman just posted a great reason to have a scatter shield 
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Jan 11, 2013 06:43
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IOwnCalculus posted:I was going to say, Dizman just posted a great reason to have a scatter shield Yep, it's not worth $300 to risk losing a leg. A couple years ago at the DSM Shootout, a guy's flywheel blew apart at 8,000rpm and metal went flying everywhere. The passenger seat had about an 8" long piece of flywheel lodged in it right where the passenger's chest would be. That means it blew through the bellhousing, firewall, dash, and still had enough speed to pierce the seat back. No doubt someone would have been killed if they were sitting there.
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Jan 11, 2013 23:07
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I had a little time today to play, so I focused on prepping the engine for the transmission arrival this week. Pulled the intake manifold and wiring harness. This will be a nice fresh hell to deal with pretty soon.  Looks pretty good. A little elbow grease will make things look nice and clean.    I'm really hoping the T-56 tail housing will fit back there without having to cut the stock crossmember. It's welded to the frame, so hopefully I can just fab a different mount. We'll see soon. The hole in the floor for the shifter is right above the mount between the exhaust pipes.  Since I had it stripped down I figured I'd do a test fitting. This is going to be a TIGHT fit. I'm going to have to remove the exhaust manifolds to clear the steering column. Hopefully they will fit back on once in place. I also need to figure out how to extend the A/C line to the cabin since it's way too short to go around the engine. Now I'm really glad I went with the pushrod LS engine since there's no way in hell a DOHC engine would fit.  Passenger side clearance.  Driver side clearance. The exhaust manifold is directly over the steering column here. The engine has a few inches to move over, so it *should* fit with the stock manifolds. If not, they will be reversed for the turbo later on so that might help clearances.  Still has about 8" more to go back here. The flywheel will end up basically flush with the firewall.  First impressions makes me think I might be able to keep the truck accessories and possibly the intake. I'd love to avoid having to purchase the F-body accessories and intake manifold, but I'll see once the transmission gets here and I get everything lined up. The truck intake and wiring harness is pretty ugly though and I do plan on making the switch eventually, I just still have a lot of money to spend on other parts of the car and I'm trying to get this thing driving by spring time. After seeing how big this engine is in the engine bay, I'm worried that a turbo might not fit. I have some elbow room still by swapping the mechanical fan for electric which should give me around 12" from the crank pulley to the radiator shroud. I'm shoehorning the engine in as is, so again I'll find out next week once the transmission arrives.
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Jan 14, 2013 05:37
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I know you're anti cutting, but here's some food for thought. Chevy LUVs have a welded in trans crossmember as well. What they do is cut the center off, weld some heavy duty tabs to it, and bolt it back into place (with 2 bolts per side). If you were to do something similar, you could make a custom center section for your T56, and then still keep the original in case you ever were to put it back to stock. Also, you probably already know this, but T56s are pretty drat big.
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Jan 14, 2013 05:50
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mafoose posted:Also, you probably already know this, but T56s are pretty drat big. The TF727 or whatever it had before was probably pretty big too, though the tailshaft area was nowhere near as a tall.
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Jan 14, 2013 06:02
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mafoose posted:I know you're anti cutting, but here's some food for thought. That's a really good idea about the crossmember. Hopefully it won't come to that, but at least that's an option. I know the T-56 is big. Part of the reason I waited so long to go for it was debating the ease of fitting a much smaller automatic vs. wedging the T56 in there. I thought about the TKO-600 for a while since it's so much smaller, but that tranny doesn't bolt up quite as nicely to the LS1 style blocks and it uses a mechanical clutch setup. I was told by a senior member of the Bricklin forum that the T56 will fit without any clearancing needed outside cutting the hole for the shifter bigger, so hopefully he's right. The nice thing about the Magnum is that its dimensions are a bit different than the standard T56. It has multiple shifter locations, and the case itself is much more suited to my application since the shifter can go right above the crossmember mount without any modifications. The shifter can be located 19", 23", and 26.6" from the bellhousing surface. The current shifter hole in the Brick's fiberglass tunnel is 24" from the firewall where the bellhousing will be, so the 23" or 26" location should work well. The right one is the Magnum, the left is a standard T56. 
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Jan 14, 2013 19:22
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A package arrives.   This is going to be exciting.
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Jan 16, 2013 22:06
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Sweet! 
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Jan 16, 2013 22:08
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You're not helping me not go insane and get a Magnum for my GMC.
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Jan 16, 2013 22:13
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That was posted two hours ago now. Why don't we have any fitting pics! Watching this thread with anticipation. You are insane, but in a good way.
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Jan 16, 2013 23:02
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Awesome! The funny thing is, I bet even with that big expensive transmission, you still end up spending less in parts to put this car together than most people would on an econobox - for instance MSRP on a Camry is $22k or so.
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Jan 16, 2013 23:11
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IOwnCalculus posted:You're not helping me not go insane and get a Magnum for my GMC. I'm totally an enabler. General_Failure posted:That was posted two hours ago now. Why don't we have any fitting pics! I'm still waiting on the bellhousing, which probably won't get here til tomorrow if the tracking info is to be believed. Also I'm at work. Also it was my birthday yesterday and I'm spending all day Saturday doing b-day related stuff, so I can't do it then. Hopefully I get some time Sunday to disconnect the A/C and get some fitment measurements working around the AFC championship game. kastein posted:Awesome! True, but I have to imagine you're getting a whole lot more utility out of a Camry than a 39 year old acrylic coupe. $4k for the car, $3k for the tranny, $1k for the engine so far. Air doors will be around $1,300, clutch and flywheel with master and slave setup ~$1,500, interior will be around $1k, plus fuel system, door restoration, cooling system, A/C, tires, suspension, and it just keeps going up from there. I don't like to think about it really. 
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Jan 17, 2013 00:16
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I saw a Bricklin yesterday in downtown Montreal. It was white, and looked pretty rough. Sounded like a 70s car, so I guess it was stock. First one I've ever seen in the wild. Looking forward to seeing this project come together.
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Jan 17, 2013 00:27
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I didn't realise the bellhousing was sourced separately. Happy birthday by the way. That's a great present too even if you did buy it.
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Jan 17, 2013 00:29
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Backov posted:I saw a Bricklin yesterday in downtown Montreal. It was white, and looked pretty rough. Sounded like a 70s car, so I guess it was stock. Sup fellow Montreal guy, I see that one around all the time, the guy lives below my friends old apartment on St Denis, he's got a ragged old orangey red one in his driveway in the back alley too. Never saw him around to ask him about them though.
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Jan 17, 2013 18:35
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Bell housing. Now I just need to get some garage time Sunday. Never enough time in the week... By the way, the transmission seems a lot smaller than I thought it would be. Crazy that this thing can support 700hp (really probably a lot more than that too).
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Jan 18, 2013 02:46
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Awesome. I know there's a Quicktime compatibility joke there somewhere. I look forward to Sunday assuming you get the time to have a play. I want to see test fit photos!
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Jan 19, 2013 02:27
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You switched a GenIII ECU/harness onto your GenIV motor, right? Don't they use different tooth counts on the crankshaft sensor reluctor ring? Or is that a car vs truck problem, not an early/late problem? I don't exactly remember. Also, for the fuel tank, something the A-body guys (who also have a filler behind the license plate) do is to use an LT1 B-body sedan fuel tank. You'll have to look for measurements online, and I don't know how well it'll handle ethanol, but it's a GM factory plastic tank that would have an EFI high pressure pump with it, and there are aftermarket kits for them to support power adders. Sorry if all this is old news to you! I marathon'd your thread and these were the only things that stuck out to me.
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Jan 20, 2013 07:48
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Raluek posted:You switched a GenIII ECU/harness onto your GenIV motor, right? Don't they use different tooth counts on the crankshaft sensor reluctor ring? Or is that a car vs truck problem, not an early/late problem? I don't exactly remember. Actually I haven't heard of the tooth count problem. However I realized after looking at my harness that I'm missing the fuse box and probably other important bits. I'm planning on buying a standalone harness to rectify that plus HP Tuner or EFI Live. Hopefully that will take care of that issue. I honestly haven't done enough research into this issue, so I'm still learning along the way. At least I hope that will take care of it? I'll definitely look into the fuel tank too. Thanks for the heads up!
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Jan 20, 2013 10:10
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I had two hours to get some stuff done tonight. Seriously never enough time in the week. Next weekend should be much more open so hopefully I'll be able to spend more time with the car. What I learned today- The transmission is 11 inches tall, the trans tunnel is 11.5" from the lowest point of the top of the tunnel to the bottom of the trans crossmember. Using my rudimentary math, it looks like it should fit with half an inch of room. Additionally, the mount on the trans crossmember is 8.5" from the top of the tunnel, and the mount on the transmission is 8" from the top where the shifter sits. So in theory it also fits with half an inch of room. And, as you can see in the pictures, the shifter lines up almost perfectly with the original hole for the automatic shifter. I just may need to flip the shifter plate around to move it 2" forward.   Another thing I learned, which makes me feel rather stupid for not looking close enough earlier, is that the crossmember is actually bolted on, not welded. Just need to deal with this nasty thing next week and the crossmember won't be a problem anymore. Though I'm still hoping I can find a way to make the original one work.  I also pulled the A/C condensor and compressor. The system was completely empty which made it easy. So the engine bay is cleared out and prepped to drop the engine in to measure for mounts next week. All I'll probably need to do is pull the exhaust manifolds and it should slide right in. 
BoostCreep fucked around with this message at 10:16 on Jan 21, 2013 |
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Jan 21, 2013 09:41
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BoostCreep posted:Actually I haven't heard of the tooth count problem. However I realized after looking at my harness that I'm missing the fuse box and probably other important bits. I'm planning on buying a standalone harness to rectify that plus HP Tuner or EFI Live. Hopefully that will take care of that issue. I honestly haven't done enough research into this issue, so I'm still learning along the way. I think you might need to change the crank trigger wheel if you have the GenIII ECM, I don't remember. Also, shop around the harness rebuild guys too, it may be cheaper to have the GM factory harness reconfigured than to have a new one built from scratch.
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Jan 21, 2013 21:24
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IOwnCalculus posted:I think you might need to change the crank trigger wheel if you have the GenIII ECM, I don't remember. Also, shop around the harness rebuild guys too, it may be cheaper to have the GM factory harness reconfigured than to have a new one built from scratch. Wikipedia says Gen IV engines were 2005+, but mine is out of an '04. I should be ok. From LS1tech: LS Reluctor Ring Applications 24x: 1997-2005 cars (except GTO, CTSV and a few others thru 2007) 1999-2007 trucks (old body style) 58x: 2006 and up cars (except LS4 and as select few others) 2007 and up trucks with single bolt cam applications and new body So it looks like I should be ok. As for the harness, I was looking at something like This for $400. It seems to be a good price for what I'm getting. Are there places that build these cheaper? I really hope this whole '01 ECU, harness, and intake/throttle body with the '04 engine doesn't screw with anything else. The 4.8 didn't get VVT until 2010, so that shouldn't be a problem. I definitely have a GenIII engine since I have two knock sensors in the intake valley, which seems to be one of the main giveaways.
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Jan 21, 2013 23:37
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BoostCreep posted:As for the harness, I was looking at something like This for $400. It seems to be a good price for what I'm getting. Are there places that build these cheaper? That looks like a pretty fair price. He seems to be fairly pricing out extras too....
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Jan 22, 2013 00:55
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Tranny crossmember removed. It looks like it won't be too difficult to fabricate a replacement piece. I also finished emptying the gas tank and removed the downpipes. Engine roughly in place. It's sitting on the front crossmember though, so it will probably be an inch or two higher than it is here once mounted properly. I'm fairly sure the truck intake manifold will fit, but there are other issues...  ...like the alternator. It looks like this now, so If the engine has to go up another inch or two, the alternator definitely won't be fitting. Looks like I need to buy the car accessories after all. blarg. Might as well go with the LS1 intake manifold too then.  Clearance between the power steering pulley and steering box. It's tight.  Crank pulley clearance. It's actually almost exactly where the original AMC one was. I'm definitely ditching the mechanical fan to help with fitment issues.  aaaaand I'm now on the lookout for an F-body oil pan. Look at that thing!  I forgot to remove the flex plate before dropping the engine in, so that was annoying.  First bolt threaded.  And then I somehow managed to shear the bolt that holds the two pieces of my jack handle together. REALLY goddamn annoying and made the rest of the night painstakingly slow.  All bolted together and ready to be positioned. The problem is I'm doing all this work by myself, which means operating the hoist, then the jack under the engine, then the jack under the tranny, then playing with the position from under the car, and then back up in the bay, etc. It took half a day just to get it to this point, so hopefully I can wrangle some helpers soon.  So now I have to buy a new harness for sure, oil pan, intake manifold, fuel rails, injectors, and car accessories. I can find a lot of stuff on ebay, but not sure what to do about finding the car accessories yet. Either way, it's starting to get rather expensive. Hopefully I can find some deals soon or this will take a lot longer than I hoped.
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Jan 27, 2013 11:46
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Prices on the harnesses have come down a lot since I did my swap, then; that was what it cost (give or take a few bucks) to have my factory one reworked and repaired.
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Jan 27, 2013 22:16
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You might not need a whole set of accessories. Some of the vintage muscle swap people sell alternator relocation kits that work with the truck kit.
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Jan 27, 2013 22:20
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I got annoyed with myself for not finishing what I set out to do this weekend, so I just spent an hour doing this: Hello there Mr. Tremec!  Well if that isn't nearly perfect placement then I don't know what is. I'm shocked it's lining up that well. The engine still has room to move back maybe two inches, and once I cut the opening larger for the shifter I'll be able to raise the whole transmission another two inches or so which will help with ground clearance. The engine mount points on the block are also about an inch forward of where the stock engine cradle is, so in theory they will almost perfectly line up. Same goes for the transmission crossmember. My phone battery died before I could take more pictures, but there's a good 4-5 inches between the top of the transmission and the firewall, so there is plenty of room to tuck the engine higher into the body. Once I get the f-body oil pan and intake manifold I should be able to have the oil pan line up with the engine crossmember and still fit under the low hood. The only problem I'm seeing with all of this now is how to fit a turbo. It's crazy tight on the sides of the engine for piping, and I can't go too high in the engine bay for risk of melting the acrylic and delaminating the fiberglass. That of course is a bridge I'll cross when I get to it. In the meantime, I found a killer deal on a new LS2 intake manifold with injectors, fuel rails, map sensor, and gaskets for $225 and a new F-body oil pan for $200. Both of these go for about that price range on eBay used, so I don't think I'll find a better deal. Hopefully I can sell off the truck oil pan and intake manifold along with rails and injectors to help offset the cost. As for the accessories, I'm going to have to lower the alternator to clear the hood and raise the power steering pulley to clear the steering box. I'd LOVE to find a way to keep the A/C. I saw a kit that moves the A/C pump up about a foot to the front of the passenger side valve cover, so hopefully I will be able to make that work. That *might* leave enough room to route an exhaust from the turbo, but it'll be pushing it. I guess if all else fails, I could use the factory lower A/C mount for a Vortech style supercharger. Seeing the shifter near it's final resting place is getting me excited! Edit: This is how I need to set up my accessories to fit:  BoostCreep fucked around with this message at 09:36 on Jan 29, 2013 |
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Jan 29, 2013 09:05
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Flip your exhaust manifolds, run a short extension piece and have the turbos run ahead of the motor - you look to have clearance there (possibly an illusion due to the radiator being out). Make sure you've a heatshield and/or a fire extinguisher for when the front timing cover and serpentine belt inevitably catch fire.
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Jan 29, 2013 10:31
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Falkenbok posted:Flip your exhaust manifolds, run a short extension piece and have the turbos run ahead of the motor - you look to have clearance there (possibly an illusion due to the radiator being out). I like the way you think. Low profile thermo fans, fore mounted if possible will but a little more room still.
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Jan 29, 2013 11:57
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I actually have my A/C compressor high mounted like that - there was enough room to sneak the alternator in the frame (it's a bitch to get in and out but I confirmed it can be done) but not enough to get the A/C and lines to clear without being roasted by the exhaust. I think I actually have one of their prototype kits on mine, even. I don't know that even with a front-mount turbo if you can keep the A/C on the high mount like that, though.
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Jan 29, 2013 19:20
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That cross member looks like it was done by a first year high school shopclass. Did they not even cut the ends of the barstock straight? Or do I need new glasses?
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Jan 29, 2013 21:24
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Yeah the plan has been to flip exhaust manifolds and go with a front mount turbo. The issue I'm seeing right now is that I have about 8 inches between the radiator and the pulleys, and I still have to fit electric fans in there too. Hopefully I can push the engine back another inch or two to help out. I'm just having trouble seeing a HUGE single turbo fitting without melting the fans or belts, but I'll hold off judgement until I can get the engine actually mounted. This guy seemed to make it fit, but I don't know how happy I'd be with a turbine housing sitting that close to my radiator and hood. I'll absolutely have to have mine closer to the bottom of the bay.  InterceptorV8 posted:That cross member looks like it was done by a first year high school shopclass. Did they not even cut the ends of the barstock straight? Or do I need new glasses? Yep it looks pretty terrible. But does that surprise you considering it's on a Bricklin? If nothing else, it gives me hope that I can fabricate something at least as good on my own.
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Jan 29, 2013 21:31
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Push the engine back as far as you can stand to - better for weight balance, and it's not like there's anything on the top/rear of the engine that needs much in the way of clearance like a distributor. Might make plug changes hard but I don't think you're getting away with those easily in this car no matter how you slice it.
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Jan 29, 2013 23:19
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IOwnCalculus posted:Push the engine back as far as you can stand to - better for weight balance, and it's not like there's anything on the top/rear of the engine that needs much in the way of clearance like a distributor. Might make plug changes hard but I don't think you're getting away with those easily in this car no matter how you slice it. Yep that's the plan. I just want to give the fiberglass firewall enough room not to melt from heat. It should be ok since the AMC engine was pretty close to it as well. Just ordered a new LS2 intake manifold with fuel injectors, rails, MAP sensor, gaskets, and bolts for nearly the price of a used bare LS1 manifold on eBay. Down the road I can sell off the stock rails and injectors for $150 or so and have a very cheap manifold. Now I might have to buy a 90mm TB to replace the 72mm truck one so it will match the manifold. Also just ordered a new F-body oil pan, baffle, gasket, bolts, oil level switch, pickup tube, and two new style GM oil filters for $237. That's $100 cheaper than new ones on most sites and $50 cheaper than the Buy It Now prices of used bare pans on eBay. People are REALLY overpricing their poo poo on eBay these days. Here is exactly what I bought, but $100 more minus the oil filters. http://www.ebay.com/itm/98-02-F-Bod...&vxp=mtr&_uhb=1 Now I can list my truck intake, wiring harness, and oil pan for sale to make some of the money back. That is if anyone wants to buy that stuff. At least the truck intake makes really good power if you have room for it in your engine bay. Edit: I also just signed up for a 6 hour intro to MIG welding class. I figure I should learn how to actually weld before jumping in to fabricating my own parts. BoostCreep fucked around with this message at 04:21 on Jan 30, 2013 |
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Jan 30, 2013 04:15
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| # ? Jun 7, 2024 00:57 |
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I always forget and then someone reminds me - rather than rest the engine on the crossmember, toss a block of wood in there to simulate actual engine position. Also useful when designing your motor mounts.
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Jan 30, 2013 07:49
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