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The Lord Bude posted:I've often wondered whether the story isn't set during the very first rotation of the wheel. I mean, if the cycle of the ages has been going on and on for countless millenia, how is there any coal or iron or copper, etc anywhere where pre modern societies can mine it? many materials don't degrade that easily, why isn't the world littered with artifacts far beyond the extent it is? Is there a giant reset button at some point in the cycle? I've always assumed, for those reasons, that there was a 'reset button' of some sort. Like perhaps the end of the 7th age involves some form of discontinuity/rebirth of the world. Or perhaps there are wheels within wheels and every X turnings of the Wheel there is a true breaking of the world in some manner, followed by a Garden of Eden scenario beginning the 1st age.
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Jan 16, 2013 15:07
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I think the labels of the ages are just because this "3rd" age hasn't retained records of anything that happened prior to the "1st" age. It doesn't necessarily mean the "1st" age is the starting point on the Wheel.
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Jan 16, 2013 16:56
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Algid posted:Something I just realized. I like this idea, thanks for posting it. One thing that bugged me was how little the Bao the Wyld stuff was explained, but thinking of it that way makes me less annoyed.
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Jan 16, 2013 18:02
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It's also possible that their planet doesn't quite operate like ours. Magic's crazy, after all. Who's to say the Wheel doesn't just regenerate materials and break them down to maintain an equilibrium? Look how the Blight bloomed almost instantly after the Dark One was banished. That area was always supposed to be cool and temperate, and once the Dark One was gone it was that way again. If it can create life and fertility from nothing, why not veings of iron and silver?
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Jan 16, 2013 18:43
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Mierdaan posted:I like this idea, thanks for posting it. One thing that bugged me was how little the Bao the Wyld stuff was explained, but thinking of it that way makes me less annoyed. I just assumed that Bao the Wyld was the Sharan version of the Dragon and Demandred got their first and "fulfilled" their prophecies. That conversation he has with his Sharan sweetheart (basically, you know you are fighting alongside Trollocs, but you still follow me?) confirmed that for me. So I guess it's not a stretch that the Rand had characteristics/filled prophecies of Bao as well.
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Jan 16, 2013 18:51
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new home, old colors, same Arsenal
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Mierdaan posted:I like this idea, thanks for posting it. One thing that bugged me was how little the Bao the Wyld stuff was explained, but thinking of it that way makes me less annoyed. I like how little it was explained. As if there was a completely different series of events going on parallel to the story we've read, and it's all been theater and lies put on by Demandred. We know just about as much about Bao the Wyld as our characters do, because we've been with our characters the whole time. Makes them more unknown and scary, which is exactly how the Sharans should be in this book. A terrifying unknown factor in the Last Battle, an ace in the hole for the Dark One that Rand and co. can in no way have planned for.
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Jan 16, 2013 18:54
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Basically Demandred has always been envious of Lews Therin and trying to compare himself to Lews Therin so he goes out and copies what Rand is doing, in a different location. He's Rand's "evil twin" and it's also not surprising that he has some of same ideas of things to do after it's all over...relax, sight see, be normal, since he's been obsessed with Rand/Lews Therin and doing everything he does better. Dude is completely unoriginal
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Jan 16, 2013 19:00
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pimpslap posted:I just assumed that Bao the Wyld was the Sharan version of the Dragon and Demandred got their first and "fulfilled" their prophecies. That conversation he has with his Sharan sweetheart (basically, you know you are fighting alongside Trollocs, but you still follow me?) confirmed that for me. So I guess it's not a stretch that the Rand had characteristics/filled prophecies of Bao as well.
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Jan 16, 2013 19:10
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Why wouldn't it work? If they have no clue the True Power exists then I'm pretty sure it just looks just like "magic", because it can't be sensed in any way by regular channelers
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Jan 16, 2013 19:15
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Levitate posted:Why wouldn't it work? If they have no clue the True Power exists then I'm pretty sure it just looks just like "magic", because it can't be sensed in any way by regular channelers edit: I'm just saying Demandred (and later Moghedian) fulfilled superficial aspects of whatever prophecy was there, that doesn't make the prophecy invalid, and we're even given hints about the character that it points to. It's a very nice way of dealing with something that would otherwise seem really out of place. Algid fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Jan 16, 2013 |
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Jan 16, 2013 19:18
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loving Nakomi: Is Rand's mother. If the dead are walking again, why can't some of them be friendly?
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Jan 16, 2013 20:14
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steevee posted:loving Nakomi: I like it.
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Jan 16, 2013 20:27
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Rarity posted:You missed Talmanes "Hmm, I need to think of just the right word to describe what's happening." *stabs a Black Ajah Aes Sedai in the back, chucks her body onto the growing pile, goes back to composing*
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Jan 16, 2013 20:55
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I totally forgot about Thom and Talmanes. And Tam! Pretty much everyone gets to be a badass motherfucker in this book.
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Jan 16, 2013 21:09
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Dramatika posted:If I recall correctly, it is strongly implied that Androl picked Taim's pocket, though I could be mistaken Specifically, he saw Taim put the seals in a sack on his belt, and when he stumbled forward after the torture, he managed to grab the sack
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Jan 16, 2013 21:09
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Grabbin' Taim's sack aww yeah
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Jan 16, 2013 21:15
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Presto posted:And Thom. Such a short scene and awesome scene, definitely one of my favorites.
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Jan 16, 2013 21:21
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Troll Bridgington posted:Such a short scene and awesome scene, definitely one of my favorites. It's sort of goofy though. Five black ajah in a row disguise themselves to get by the man who can't channel instead of just... I dunno... tying him with air or killing him.  Had me going for a minute though, thought he'd figured out that Cadsuane was actually, somehow, Black Ajah all along.
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Jan 16, 2013 21:42
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I assume it was an attempt to not attract attention. If they channeled, someone might have picked up on it being so close to Shayol Ghul. 5 of them trying it is a bit much perhaps
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Jan 16, 2013 21:54
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Shara talk: I had always thought that the Sharans would show up with their poo poo together, ready to lend a hand as the Randlanders and Seanchan were failing and save the day. Well, I got part of that right  But in all seriousness, the lack of explanation turns what could have been an eyeroll of a deus ex machina into a new and interesting threat. I also thought that their appearance helped make Demandred more intimidating and competent, which helped set him up as a good antagonist.
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Jan 16, 2013 22:12
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I wonder if the time dilation effect was supposed to mirror what happens as something approaches a black hole. Pretty sure that RJ knew about gravitational time dilation, and the imagery matches too.
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Jan 16, 2013 22:12
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Levitate posted:I assume it was an attempt to not attract attention. If they channeled, someone might have picked up on it being so close to Shayol Ghul. 5 of them trying it is a bit much perhaps Also, was he ever bonded to Moiraine? I recall him saying at the end of ToM that he'd be her warder. If he was, assuming the darkfriends didn't know what exactly was happening inside, killing/harming him would have alerted the people inside.
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Jan 16, 2013 22:13
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rafikki posted:Also, was he ever bonded to Moiraine? I recall him saying at the end of ToM that he'd be her warder. If he was, assuming the darkfriends didn't know what exactly was happening inside, killing/harming him would have alerted the people inside.
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Jan 16, 2013 22:21
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Algid posted:I wonder if the time dilation effect was supposed to mirror what happens as something approaches a black hole. Pretty sure that RJ knew about gravitational time dilation, and the imagery matches too. I had the exact same thought, specifically that the DO was similar to a black hole and sort of described as such (sucking Nynaeve and Morraine in toward it, etc).
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Jan 16, 2013 22:31
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I honestly didn't like Egwene as a character even right up to the end, but I did think that the name "Flame of Tar Valon" for the anti-balefire weave was pretty profound. Nicely sums up the White Tower's role as protectors. I know people were talking about the name earlier in the thread but I don't think it was ever answered. Also I feel like the fact that the Ogier/Tinker song was rediscovered was kind of understated in the book. Rand used it in front of Fortuona yes, but that makes sense since Lews Therin would have known it. Loial definitely started singing it during the battle for Camelyn though (remember the weapons sprouting leaves?). At least that's immediately where my mind went when I heard it. Of course that's the kind of thing I think would have been best wrapped up in a more extended epilogue, but I don't think I'm unique in wishing it were longer or at least more varied in scope. I feel like we're not getting the whole story on Fain too. He was calling himself some name that I don't recognize at all and has some crazy expanded consciousness thing going on? I feel like there has to be something more to that than "I eated so many souls that I got philosophical about my perception of self" Overall a great book. I picked up the series last spring and finished ToM in November. Even with it so fresh in my mind the series suffered from an impossible to remember cast, but it was a great series with a good ending. I just wish RJ had managed to stick around another few years 
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Jan 16, 2013 23:55
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Eldercain posted:I feel like we're not getting the whole story on Fain too. There was a portion excised from the book called "River of Souls" that will be in some charity anthology, that might have something to do with him. It was basically axed for being something "different/new" and Sanderson didn't want to add too much new stuff in the last book. Most people think its something to do with Isam but considering the Fain setup last book and how absent he was here I'm guessing it "fleshes out" his metamorphosis more.
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Jan 17, 2013 00:46
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I wanted to take a moment to thank all you folks for posting your thoughts. I finished and felt rather unsatisfied with some of the ends that seemed untied, but the comments and musing that have been floating around seem really plausible. They make me think this was a better book than I originally did, and given my Stockholm Syndrome, that's a really good thing.
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Jan 17, 2013 00:48
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OAquinas posted:There was a portion excised from the book called "River of Souls" that will be in some charity anthology, that might have something to do with him. It was basically axed for being something "different/new" and Sanderson didn't want to add too much new stuff in the last book. Most people think its something to do with Isam but considering the Fain setup last book and how absent he was here I'm guessing it "fleshes out" his metamorphosis more. I tend to think that Fain was originally going to play a larger roll in the series, but Jordan changed his mind and pushed him off stage. Similarly, I think Demandread originally WAS Taim, or another original Forsaken, but Jordan changed his mind and retconned him into a guy Demandread recruited instead. 
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Jan 17, 2013 01:00
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One thing I thought might be interesting is the relation of the Flame of Tar Valon and the Aiel testing in Rhuidean. The Flame is described as patching the damage to the pattern caused by balefire. Resulting in an area of crystal columns. Sounds somewhat similar to me to the ter'angreal in Rhuidean that the wise ones use. In that case described as a group of glass columns. I wouldn't say they are exactly the same, but I could see a sort of relation between the two. The Flame actually fixes the pattern, or allows it to heal and adapt to the effects of balefire. A pure form of creation. As such, it would have to be in very close contact with the shape of the pattern. I could see the Rhuidean columns then being the result of another variation of that same weave, resulting in not a patch on the pattern, but rather a window to the shape of the pattern at certain points in time. Sort of like how we get a starting point of gateways being used to view the battlefield, and then they end up using a variation of the gateways that only lets light through. Tied to that would be the idea that the Flame is kind of a raw form of the weave, with the outward appearance of those rougher crystal columns, while the more refined form of the weave results in a more refined form of crystal column, the glass columns seen at Rhuidean. Just a thought anyways.
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Jan 17, 2013 01:06
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Sedgr posted:One thing I thought might be interesting is the relation of the Flame of Tar Valon and the Aiel testing in Rhuidean. The Flame is described as patching the damage to the pattern caused by balefire. Resulting in an area of crystal columns. Sounds somewhat similar to me to the ter'angreal in Rhuidean that the wise ones use. In that case described as a group of glass columns. Given that balefire has a temporal affect (ripping people backward out of time), it's not farfetched that the Flame could also have a different but also time related side-effect (visions).
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Jan 17, 2013 01:12
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I'm thinking the reverse Balefire recreates the Pattern, and creates from the point where it hits into the future, which would make it pretty indestructible. Incidentally anyone noticed Demandred was using what looks like the Holy Grail as a Sa'angreal? Algid posted:Something I just realized.
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Jan 17, 2013 02:44
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veekie posted:
Especially funny because Sa'angreal = Sangreal = Holy Grail
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Jan 17, 2013 03:08
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dog kisser posted:Especially funny because Sa'angreal = Sangreal = Holy Grail I highly doubt that is a coincidence. RJ threw in a whole bunch of quasi religious references throughout the series. The most obvious being shai'tan.
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Jan 17, 2013 03:41
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Well, now we have Vora's Wand and the Holy Grail embedded in crystal on the Fields of Merrilor. I wonder if theres anything THAT is supposed to reference
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Jan 17, 2013 05:10
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So wait, who was the wolf that was supposed to have died in the Dark Prophecies?
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Jan 17, 2013 08:40
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ShadowCatboy posted:So wait, who was the wolf that was supposed to have died in the Dark Prophecies? Probably Hopper. He's really the only character who died that makes sense.
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Jan 17, 2013 09:03
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ShadowCatboy posted:So wait, who was the wolf that was supposed to have died in the Dark Prophecies? The Shadow was trying to get Perrin or Ituralde to be the wolf that falls. It turns out to be Hopper. Prophecies sometimes give a drat about minor characters.
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Jan 17, 2013 09:05
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Fintilgin posted:I tend to think that Fain was originally going to play a larger roll in the series, but Jordan changed his mind and pushed him off stage. I agree whole-heartedly with both these points. The early links between Taim and Demandred are pretty obvious if you're looking for it at all while reading. I suppose RJ could have done that on purpose to throw readers off track but I'm more inclined to believe he changed his original intention sometime around Book 9. Ross fucked around with this message at 13:43 on Jan 17, 2013 |
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Jan 17, 2013 13:38
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The parallels between Taim and Demandred are there to show you Rand loving up in exactly the same way as LTT did. Taim has similar parallels to at least Mesaana and Sammael.
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Jan 17, 2013 14:24
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Doesn't the Taim was Demandred idea also mean Shara would have to have been a kind of late series addition? Seems like it would mean there was a massive change in the whole series and ending. Also when were the Shara first mentioned? Because I would take that as first proof Jordan planned to have a Forsaken bring them to the last battle
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Jan 17, 2013 14:37
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