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Guinness posted:for certain types of beginners that "get it" pretty quickly. It was interesting to see which groups different people fell into, in the MSF class. I think there was 12 of us. Me and another guy just "got it" immediately, every exercise was challenging but fun. About 8 others in the middle were hesitant, wobbly, but could keep up and by the end of each exercise could sorta kinda do it. And the final 2 were just basket cases, could not reliably finish any exercise, ended up dropping the bikes a couple of times, didn't even complete (let alone pass) the final test. Looking back, I feel like you could have handed me or that other guy a 650 twin, and we'd have probably been fine. But that group in the middle, 250 or bust. Edit: My unfair advantages: manual transmission car driver, casual scooter renter. epswing fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Jan 17, 2013 |
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Jan 17, 2013 20:20
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I still wonder what the MSF would've been like had I not have ridden dirtbikes and stuff for years before I took it. Clutch control, braking, etc were all second nature at that point. I'm curious how cool it would've been to get thrown in and have to learn all that stuff at once that I had time to develop out in the woods. I'm also pissed I never got to wheelie the TW200 I took the test on, my instructor kept too close a watch on us.
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Jan 17, 2013 20:26
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epalm posted:It was interesting to see which groups different people fell into, in the MSF class. I think there was 12 of us. Me and another guy just "got it" immediately, every exercise was challenging but fun. About 8 others in the middle were hesitant, wobbly, but could keep up and by the end of each exercise could sorta kinda do it. And the final 2 were just basket cases, could not reliably finish any exercise, ended up dropping the bikes a couple of times, didn't even complete (let alone pass) the final test. I'd never driven a manual but I had a lot of bicycle experience and it made things easier. But yeah, the general reason that 250s get the solid recommendation is because even if someone is all thumbs when it comes to motorcycles, they'll probably be ok. You can't tell over the internet if they barely scraped by their MSF by the skin of their teeth or an instructor who didn't want to deal with them again or if it comes to them naturally.
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Jan 17, 2013 20:50
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:I agree with this. If we're contributing something unique, then I think its worth while. EIther way, if we want to make it something unique, its worth it as well, we could have reviews and stuff like that as well You can count on my support re: project Biekwiki as well.
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Jan 17, 2013 21:12
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I'll post stuff on it. I feel like the plebes could benefit from my vast swaths of motorcycle knowledge.
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Jan 17, 2013 21:32
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OK, I'll get it set up
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Jan 17, 2013 21:42
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epalm posted:It was interesting to see which groups different people fell into, in the MSF class. I think there was 12 of us. Me and another guy just "got it" immediately, every exercise was challenging but fun. About 8 others in the middle were hesitant, wobbly, but could keep up and by the end of each exercise could sorta kinda do it. And the final 2 were just basket cases, could not reliably finish any exercise, ended up dropping the bikes a couple of times, didn't even complete (let alone pass) the final test. Yeah, my MSF was the same way. Out of the dozen or so people in the class, there were 3 or 4 of who were pretty natural at the basics. Obviously still beginners, but had the comfort and controls down enough to be able to really focus on improving technique through the exercises rather than just trying to manage not falling off the bike. Then there were 6-7 people who kinda got along with it okay, but were wobbly and hesitant, but they all made it through without dropping their bikes and ended up passing easily enough, and with more practice I'm sure they ended up fine. Then there were 2 or 3 that were just lost causes. One of them dropped out before the end of the first day after repeatedly failing to duck-walk the bike across the parking lot, and another dropped out on the second day after dropping her bike twice. One of them ended up passing with exactly an 80 and probably just because the instructor didn't want to deal with them again (IMO not a good thing). Ironically, the only person in the class who showed up with a full set of brand new gear was the guy who dropped out on the first day. For the first type of riders that pick up on things pretty quick and kind of "get it", a 650 twin or similar is a totally reasonable bike to start on. For the second type a 250/300 would probably be more ideal until just being on a bike becomes more natural. For the third type... either a lot more instruction or maybe a bus pass. I can understand why the resounding sentiment on the internet tends to be "250 or you gon' die" just to play things safe, but that's also the lowest common denominator answer and not all people are LCD. Guinness fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Jan 17, 2013 |
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Jan 17, 2013 21:42
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Literally the only people who say "250 or you're going to die" are the people who are recommending bigger bikes. It's a nice strawman to avoid any of the actual arguments.
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Jan 17, 2013 21:48
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nsaP posted:Literally the only people who say "250 or you're going to die" are the people who are recommending bigger bikes. What does this mean? That appears to be a contradictory statement unless I'm missing something obvious.
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Jan 17, 2013 22:03
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And saying 250 isn't even good. I want to put noob riders on something from 30-50hp. Enough to get out of the way of traffic, and not so much they're likely to flip the bike or break traction mid corner.
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Jan 17, 2013 22:05
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He's saying that I'm dodging the arguments of why to get a 250 as a first bike by positing that "250 or you're gonna die" is their argument - which is not what I'm saying. There are plenty of good arguments for why to start on a 250, but it's not the be-all end-all solution for all riders as it is sometimes put forth on the internet.
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Jan 17, 2013 22:05
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While I recommend 250's to people too I think it's dumb that it's the blanket go-to bike. I think it mostly stems from people on the internet feeling like there's no possible way someone else less experienced could possibly be accident free or start out and do better than them. I think it goes on a case by case basis. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend an SV650 to someone who drives a manual car, has ridden dirt bikes before, etc. I would not recommend a 650 to someone I know is sketchy and would wreck a bicycle given the chance. Personally, I started on an F4i because I got a better deal on it than I could on a 650 at the time and I was comfortable with the controls / handling. I still took it slow and took the MSF before I rode it around but I don't regret the decision. Looking back, the F4i isn't THAT far off from an SV and it's really not a bad choice at all. I loved mine. I've known people to start out on 600's and turn out fine. I've known people to start out on 250's and 500's and immediately lay them down in the first week despite having taken the MSF. You can't just blindly recommend one bike. Sure, recommending a weaker bike is going to mitigate some of the risks that a powerful bike brings but it's certainly not going to prevent idiots from being idiots.
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Jan 17, 2013 22:13
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JP Money posted:I wouldn't hesitate to recommend an SV650 to someone who drives a manual car, FYI I don't think being able to drive a manual car has anything to do with being safe on a motorcycle. Learning to operate the clutch and the shifter is one of the easiest parts. I had like seven years of manual driving experience before I got on a motorcycle, only stalled the bike at the MSF once or twice, but that certainly didn't give me any knowledge of safe riding techniques whatsoever. Dirt bike experience, yeah, that's something, but cars != bikes.
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Jan 17, 2013 22:22
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Sagebrush posted:I had like seven years of manual driving experience before I got on a motorcycle, only stalled the bike at the MSF once or twice, but that certainly didn't give me any knowledge of safe riding techniques whatsoever. The point he is (we are) making here is that, while you are correct that knowledge of a manual transmission doesn't not magically give you knowledge of safe riding techniques, it does allow you to gain knowledge of safe riding techniques faster because you're not wasting any time understanding how a clutch works. So if you connect the dots, yeah, the guy who drives a manual car is probably a slightly safer motorcycle rider, right off the bat. (And I'm not saying this doesn't completely even out given enough time.)
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Jan 17, 2013 22:24
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JP Money posted:While I recommend 250's *snip* This is the "well I was ok" fallacy. A F4i IS that far from a SV. A 100hp flat horsepower curve bike is way different from a 70hp flat torque curve bike. You're also falling into the displacement fallacy. There are 70hp 250's. And 9hp 250's. And 30hp 600's and 120hp 600s. Flat horsepower curves seem to be THE way to scare the poo poo out of people. That's not what you want. I'm glad you were fine.
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Jan 17, 2013 22:32
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JP Money posted:I think it mostly stems from people on the internet feeling like there's no possible way someone else less experienced could possibly be accident free or start out and do better than them. In my experience, this extends beyond the internet and what size bike you should buy. A gal I know was telling me about her friends who just got bikes and, after a couple months, took them on a trip to Mexico. I thought it sounded great but she was freaked out and convinced they'd get hurt, adamant that you need a certain # of miles puttering around your neighborhood before you even venture onto the freeway. She looked at me sideways when I defended them, mentioning I did 100 or so miles before taking a week-long 3200 mile interstate tour and came back a whole different rider. I mean... at some point doesn't going stoplight to stoplight in Ballard get boring?  Some folks just build up a set of limitations that they think apply to everybody universally, and it's often very silly.
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Jan 17, 2013 22:39
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If you're going to use the "jerky throttle hand" example I'd be more worried if some kid pulled out and, at 3k rpm's or so, grabbed a handful of throttle on an SV in first gear vs. an F4i. Like I said, it's case by case. I was fine, but that isn't why I recommend it. I recommend it based on past experience of a rider not just the fact that I did it and lived. It's not just a simple issue - there are many factors to consider when choosing a bike. Plenty of people are NOT ok to start on an F4i. Don't mistake what I said as a recommendation that it is an ok starter bike for everyone. That is clearly not what was written in my last post. EDIT - Clutchpuck this isn't directed at you, this was in response to Nerobro. I agree 100% with what you're saying. Oftentimes throwing yourself into the mix once you're comfortable is the best method to learning something. Sure it's not 100% recommended but if you do it safely (ie geared up) and watch your own rear end it's incredibly rewarding.
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Jan 17, 2013 22:41
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I think you guys are projecting a lot of feelings onto simply trying to recommend a good bike to learn on. No one is solely recommending a 250. Also thisJP Money posted:I think it mostly stems from people on the internet feeling like there's no possible way someone else less experienced could possibly be accident free or start out and do better than them. is cute but doesn't really apply to me. I started on an Fz6. I4 600, I turned out "fine", and I'd still recommend someone get a 250. Any other armchair psychologists want to weigh in on why? Lol...
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Jan 17, 2013 22:54
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I like to recommend 250s because you can get a relatively newer one for not too much money. This way if you don't like riding all that much you don't lose to much money. It's the same thing I tell my friends that want to try to ski with me, I tell them not to spend many hundreds of dollars on gear before ever setting foot on the slope to do something they may hate or be too horrible at to continue.
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Jan 17, 2013 23:00
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In my experience, the people who start on bigger/more aggressively oriented bikes often have significant difficulty with the basics of riding properly, applying the throttle, using the brakes to maximum effectiveness, etc. Smaller, lighter, less aggressive bikes are easier for our brains to cope with and handle off the bat, and make it easier to be more comfortable with the controls, especially when you're also learning the muscle memory needed to ride a bike. After riding around and fixing up a GS500, I'm actually sort of convinced that it's pretty much the ideal starter. Relatively lightish, but enough power to be comfortable on the freeway, with proper springs or a katana shock on the back it handles just fine. Friend after completing the MSF was perfectly comfortable with rolling on the throttle while midcorner. Brakes are strong enough to lock the front but forgiving of harsh newbie inputs, and they've been around forever and the bikes are relatively reliable and easy on maintenance if you adjust the valves to the loose side. They're also cheap as hell. Not as much power as the SV, ~50 pounds lighter, less wheelieable, more forgiving brakes, lower seat height, but still very freeway capable and reliable.
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Jan 17, 2013 23:01
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I started on a two-stroke 250 with about 65hp, for what it's worth. But my first crash was on my second bike, a much tamer 400 four-stroke. Take that as you will. Also it's worth saying that most 250's and such have genuinely crap brakes; a single front brake to me seems terrible and weak and I think a newbie should have at least moderate stopping power, like a weak pair of discs like the sv has. Not enough to lock the wheel suddenly, but enough to stop in a hurry when you make a bad judgement call. MY FIANCEE started on an rg150 two stroke which had roughly 35hp, was light as a feather and had a terrible single disc on the front. When I rode it in the rain I found it more frightening than my 900 hornet.
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Jan 17, 2013 23:06
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Z3n posted:In my experience, the people who start on bigger/more aggressively oriented bikes often have significant difficulty with the basics of riding properly, applying the throttle, using the brakes to maximum effectiveness, etc. Even a mechanically inclined person that's brand new to riding shouldn't be messing with tuning the suspension as they have no idea what is good or bad.
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Jan 17, 2013 23:07
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JP Money posted:I think it mostly stems from people on the internet feeling like there's no possible way someone else less experienced could possibly be accident free or start out and do better than them.
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Jan 17, 2013 23:24
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I think it's just a question of the relative benefits. Advantage of a 250 over something large and powerful: - engine isn't going to kill you if you twitch your hand - brakes aren't going to endo you if you panic and clamp them - lightweight and easy to maneuver - cheap on fuel - cheap to repair if/when you drop it - low initial cost, always a large resale market Advantages of a large and powerful bike over a 250 - somewhat more stable at freeway speeds - bros won't think you're a pussy - ??? There just isn't really a specific reason that a larger bike is better, unless the first thing you intend to do is spend a lot of time commuting on the highways (I wouldn't suggest this) and you never ever want to buy another bike ever again (where's the fun in that?)
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Jan 17, 2013 23:32
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front wing flexing posted:Even a mechanically inclined person that's brand new to riding shouldn't be messing with tuning the suspension as they have no idea what is good or bad. There's plenty of shops out there that will do a fork spring/shock spring swap for you. The point is that if you're 160+ pounds, you can just do the springs and you don't have to worry about the bottoming out that is super common on every other beginner bike option. For a bike designed in the 80s, the frame is reasonable stiff and the damping rod suspension is perfectly serviceable once the spring rates get in line with reasonable. Collateral Damage posted:Or from a less cynical point of view, they don't want to be the guy who recommends a bike that turns out to be too much for the newbie and causes him or her to hurt themselves. And it's a lot of this. It's always the safer option to recommend a smaller, lighter, easier to handle bike. It may not be the most fun option, but it's also your first bike, not your last. Half the fun of bikes is going through them like a rich guy would go through sport cars. Z3n fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Jan 17, 2013 |
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Jan 17, 2013 23:41
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And really, if you can't have fun with 30 horsepower, you're doing it all wrong.
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Jan 17, 2013 23:47
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A single cylinder bike is fun to start with as you might never move back to one (low powered) but the engine character's cool.
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Jan 17, 2013 23:50
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Sagebrush posted:There just isn't really a specific reason that a larger bike is better, unless the first thing you intend to do is spend a lot of time commuting on the highways (I wouldn't suggest this) and you never ever want to buy another bike ever again (where's the fun in that?) If you intend to travel with it (which was my immediate goal when starting to ride), a bigger bike can have very tangible, practical advantages that simply disqualify a tiny bike. "Somewhat more stable on the highway" tells me you underestimate how absolutely sublime a purpose built touring machine can be in its element. Snark-free, I'd replace "somewhat" with "considerably". Snark: Advantages of a large powerful bike over a 250: - power wheelies in 1st - power wheelies in 2nd - power wheelies in 3rd - keeping up in Montana clutchpuck fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Jan 18, 2013 |
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Jan 18, 2013 00:13
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:OK, I'll get it set up
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Jan 18, 2013 00:22
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nsaP posted:I think you guys are projecting a lot of feelings onto simply trying to recommend a good bike to learn on. No one is solely recommending a 250. Also this So your story is literally the exact same as mine and you are saying the same thing. I'll go back to being an armchair psychologist now.
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Jan 18, 2013 00:26
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Safety Dance posted:You can count on my support re: project Biekwiki as well.
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Jan 18, 2013 01:31
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How do replacement grips work? Are they all pretty much interchangeable, or do I have to get ones specifically designed for my bike? I want to put bar-end mirrors on my CL but the (stock) grips that are on it right now are closed at the end, so I can't. At least not without slicing the ends off, and that might look pretty terrible.
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Jan 18, 2013 02:31
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Rev. Dr. Moses P. Lester posted:I'll write the entry on Ducatis. It'll say "get a Ducati." Remember to mention to not put indian reservation gas in it. Twice in a row, my bro's Multi went into surprise coffee break mode on the last day of multiday trips. Sucks when you have to be at work tomorrow Self-serve indian gas in Oregon is SUCH a temptation!Sagebrush posted:How do replacement grips work? Are they all pretty much interchangeable, or do I have to get ones specifically designed for my bike? Make sure you get the bar diameter right and you should be A-OK. Some (most?) grips cover the bar end (Avon contour grips, for example); make sure you get grips compatible with the mirrors you want so you don't find yourself hacking up a perfectly good brand new grip.
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Jan 18, 2013 03:39
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Collateral Damage posted:You should start a thread for it as well. OK its here http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3528955
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Jan 18, 2013 03:59
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2ndclasscitizen posted:How did that happen? Doesn't the Striple have a separate oil cooler? From what I'm told, the fluids in this exchanger are separated by a rubber seal, and the exchanger is entirely not-serviceable. I'm also told that the oil pump on pre-2012 Striples puts out too much pressure at high RPMs, and it commonly blows the seal on race bikes. (Hence the bypass above) Since I've tracked my striple a couple times, I guess I blew the seal. If this happens again, I'm going to get a 2012 oil pump as well.
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Jan 18, 2013 16:45
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JP Money posted:So your story is literally the exact same as mine and you are saying the same thing. I'll go back to being an armchair psychologist now. No, much like the post right before that one, you misunderstood what I was saying. This little personal derail isn't helping anyone tho, so yeah, you're right buddy, let's just say that "I think there's no way someone on the internet could start off and do better than me" and end it. You're right. Nothing to do with well being or wanting people to learn proper techniques. It's all because I'm emasculated. Done.
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Jan 18, 2013 18:13
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Here's a video of my vstrom trying to start up. First time it almost starts, then dies. Second time it starts. What the video doesn't include are the 4 or 5 previous failed startups (which all sound similar to the first one in the video) before I thought to record it. http://epswing.com/shared/bike/startup_DL650.mov (3mb) (it's upside down and I don't know why  the video orients properly on my phone  )At the time of the recording, the bike had been sitting for a couple of months. What might be the cause of the failed startups? The fact that it eventually does start leads me to believe it's not a weak battery...right? Should I be taking my battery off the tender, slapping it into the bike, and starting 'er up once a week, just to move the fluids? epswing fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Jan 18, 2013 |
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Jan 18, 2013 18:30
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You can't make any reasonable assumptions about why without 2 things: fully charged battery and good gasoline. Fix those first and then go from there. Probably just the combo of a low battery, FI, and old gas.
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Jan 18, 2013 18:33
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epalm posted:At the time of the recording, the bike had been sitting for a couple of months. I'd go with that mainly. The battery sounded pretty strong but you could put a multimeter on it if you wanted.
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Jan 18, 2013 18:33
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nsaP posted:No, much like the post right before that one, you misunderstood what I was saying. This little personal derail isn't helping anyone tho, so yeah, you're right buddy, let's just say that "I think there's no way someone on the internet could start off and do better than me" and end it. You're right. Nothing to do with well being or wanting people to learn proper techniques. It's all because I'm emasculated. Thank god! I was really hoping I'd specifically win you over with my argument  Get over yourself. I obviously never made a statement indicating I wish people harm. We can go back to helping people now and leave the pedantry alone.
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Jan 18, 2013 18:35
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