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razorrozar posted:That's a good point, and with Rich's penchant for twists I wouldn't be at all surprised if it happened this way. People expect Belkar to come back? Didn't we learn anything from Miko?
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Jan 18, 2013 15:25
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Wili posted:People expect Belkar to come back? Didn't we learn anything from Miko? The problem is that we're dealing with a prophecy loophole - the Oracle didn't say Belkar would die, the Oracle said he would "draw his last breath - ever" and told him to enjoy his next birthday cake. We're all genre-aware enough to look at the exact words and think, well, he could be going to die, or he could just become undead and neither eat or breathe. Same deal with Durkon. He would return "posthumously" ... but dying doesn't mean you stay dead. Technically everything Roy is doing now he's doing posthumously.
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Jan 18, 2013 16:18
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Say, couldn't the IFCC just force V to kill herself when their time controlling her was just about expired?
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Jan 18, 2013 17:21
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Colonel Cool posted:Say, couldn't the IFCC just force V to kill herself when their time controlling her was just about expired? Why do that when you can leave V in a position where it's impossible to do anything but further drat yourself?
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Jan 18, 2013 17:26
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They could, but it'd be pointless and, more importantly, wouldn't make for a good story. What might happen is that they'll make him go out in a giant blaze of glory, that she'll turn around at the last second to accomplish their own goals and redeem himself (in her own eyes).
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Jan 18, 2013 17:26
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Durkon has enough diamond dust left for a single Ressurection. Malak is adverse to tampering with death, due to his religion, but if his friend and a psychopathic halfling both died and they needed all the help they could get against, say, an unstoppable super-lich, it's a no-brainer who he'd revive. Voila. If I can miraculously predict Rich Burlew's plots than I think that covers both prophecies.
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Jan 18, 2013 17:54
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There's also the prophecy that says Durkon is going to die, not in so uncertain words as Belkar's prophecy, either. "How will I finally return to my beloved Dwarven homelands?" - "Posthumously." Although that doesn't technically have to mean he dies at a dramatic moment before the end of the comic, Burlew wouldn't be Burlew if it didn't.
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Jan 18, 2013 18:07
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Final two panels of OotS 1) Durkon: I have to go back to my homeland. My people need me! 2) (Durkon died on the way to his homeland)
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Jan 18, 2013 18:15
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I thought it was pretty clear that Durkon was exiled to never return, because it was stated in a prophecy that his return would cause some massive upheaval/civil war, and so when he returns posthumously, a world-saving hero and faithful of Thor having been exiled until his death for no reason, it'll cause a massive upheaval/civil war.
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Jan 18, 2013 18:17
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My Lovely Horse posted:There's also the prophecy that says Durkon is going to die, not in so uncertain words as Belkar's prophecy, either. "How will I finally return to my beloved Dwarven homelands?" - "Posthumously." Although that doesn't technically have to mean he dies at a dramatic moment before the end of the comic, Burlew wouldn't be Burlew if it didn't. Or, if Rich really wants to get dark, part of the endgame will include the Snarl destroying the world and the heroes finding a way to rebuild it. That way, Durkon will return to his homeland posthumously, that is, after the death of his homeland.
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Jan 18, 2013 18:18
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I assumed that the final gate is near his homeland so when he dies during the adventure at some point and the Order hauls his body back home it heralds the imminent arrival of Xykon and Co to wreck up the place.
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Jan 18, 2013 18:19
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Colon V posted:I thought it was pretty clear that Durkon was exiled to never return, because it was stated in a prophecy that his return would cause some massive upheaval/civil war, and so when he returns posthumously, a world-saving hero and faithful of Thor having been exiled until his death for no reason, it'll cause a massive upheaval/civil war. Wasn't there a thing where there was a letter which basically went "Uh, we have no idea why you're exiled, c'mon home" but the messanger got killed before it could be delivered? Or maybe I'm thinking of something else.
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Jan 18, 2013 18:33
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Yeah, the new church leader sent that (or something to that effect), so not only was Durkon exiled, he was exiled off the record. (And then the MitD ate the note, and complained that life isn't fair.)
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Jan 18, 2013 18:35
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my dad posted:Or, if Rich really wants to get dark, part of the endgame will include the Snarl destroying the world and the heroes finding a way to rebuild it.
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Jan 18, 2013 18:57
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Colonel Cool posted:I assumed that the final gate is near his homeland so when he dies during the adventure at some point and the Order hauls his body back home it heralds the imminent arrival of Xykon and Co to wreck up the place.
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Jan 18, 2013 19:12
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At this point I almost hope for a counter-subversion with him dying from a tree-related poison 5 feet from the border of his home.
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Jan 18, 2013 19:59
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Colon V posted:I thought it was pretty clear that Durkon was exiled to never return, because it was stated in a prophecy that his return would cause some massive upheaval/civil war, and so when he returns posthumously, a world-saving hero and faithful of Thor having been exiled until his death for no reason, it'll cause a massive upheaval/civil war. He wasn't exiled for no reason, he was exiled because his return will herald upheaval in the dwarven lands.
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Jan 18, 2013 20:21
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Rumda posted:He wasn't exiled for no reason, he was exiled because his return will herald upheaval in the dwarven lands. Then why exile him in the first place? If he never leaves, he can never return.
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Jan 18, 2013 20:26
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my dad posted:Then why exile him in the first place? If he never leaves, he can never return. The reason was that sooner or later he would have left to visit relatives or something anyway. But if he's commanded to stay away forever then he will because he's lawful.
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Jan 18, 2013 20:28
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my dad posted:Then why exile him in the first place? If he never leaves, he can never return. I think the exact quote was "When he next returns home..." Since he was out of his house at the time, they couldn't risk him 'returning home' in any possible sense.
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Jan 18, 2013 20:46
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You know, all this talk about Durkon's return causing upheaval (which I don't know the specifics of since I haven't read the prequel books) and him returning posthumously (which I do remember) made me realize, it's probably going to be his returning home dead that'll cause whatever big unwanted stuff that was prophesied in the first place. The prophecy (and the reaction to it) basically caused itself. Of course I'm probably not the first person to realize this, but I think it's an interesting possibility.
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Jan 18, 2013 20:55
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DrakePegasus posted:Durkon has enough diamond dust left for a single Ressurection.
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Jan 18, 2013 21:23
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Roland Jones posted:You know, all this talk about Durkon's return causing upheaval (which I don't know the specifics of since I haven't read the prequel books) and him returning posthumously (which I do remember) made me realize, it's probably going to be his returning home dead that'll cause whatever big unwanted stuff that was prophesied in the first place. The prophecy (and the reaction to it) basically caused itself. Edit That wasn't sarcastic, I was actually thanking you. 
girl dick energy fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Jan 18, 2013 |
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Jan 18, 2013 21:43
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Colon V posted:Thank you for managing to say what I was trying to, but with actual words. Oh dang missed your post where you already said this. Whoops.
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Jan 18, 2013 21:49
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Roland Jones posted:Of course I'm probably not the first person to realize this, but I think it's an interesting possibility. The self-fulfilling prophecy is one of the oldest and most overused literary devices in history - It's drat near a guarantee that when a prophecy affects the plot any reaction will cause it to come true. The fun isn't in predicting whether the prophecy will come true (it will), the fun is figuring out how the preventative action will backfire and cause it to come true.
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Jan 19, 2013 01:59
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my dad posted:Or, if Rich really wants to get dark, part of the endgame will include the Snarl destroying the world and the heroes finding a way to rebuild it. That way, Durkon will return to his homeland posthumously, that is, after the death of his homeland. This is an interesting idea that I never considered, maybe the intervention of the IFCC/Tarquin/The Linear Guild destorys Giriad's gate leaving Xykon and Redcloak to destroy the dwarven homeland as they search for the final one. The 'posthumously' referring to the death of his homeland rather than himself as the Order arrives too late to stop them. This makes a lot of sense as the Durkon prophecy of him returning after his death wasn't so clear in narrative terms.
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Jan 19, 2013 02:31
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CapnAndy posted:Diamond dust is for sale and the Order is as rich as any group of mid-to-high level adventurers. They can get lots more. Of course they can. But none's going toward reviving Belkar.
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Jan 19, 2013 02:31
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Zonekeeper posted:The self-fulfilling prophecy is one of the oldest and most overused literary devices in history - It's drat near a guarantee that when a prophecy affects the plot any reaction will cause it to come true. As soon as the High Priest of Thor has sent Durkon on his "mission", an acolyte calls him on exactly that; that he's creating a self-fufilling prophecy by making Durkon leave in the first place. The High Priest responds that eventually Durkon would have left, to visit friends or family or hell, just going shopping. At least this way he's got an oath that, being Lawful, he has to keep to, so he'll stay gone. His body returning being enough to trigger it apparently didn't cross the guy's mind.
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Jan 19, 2013 02:50
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CapnAndy posted:Origin of PCs spoiler: This is one of my biggest peeves in OOTS. Wouldn't it have been infinitely more effective to just order Durkon to cloister himself? It's got the same lawful weight with much less risk. In fact tell him why and tell him not to tell anyone, or even to take a vow of silence or something. All within the realm of being lawful and part of a religious order with none of the risk of allowing him to leave. But whatever, it's not a huge deal.
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Jan 19, 2013 02:54
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e: YOUUUUU^
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Jan 19, 2013 02:58
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cafel posted:This is one of my biggest peeves in OOTS. Wouldn't it have been infinitely more effective to just order Durkon to cloister himself? It's got the same lawful weight with much less risk. In fact tell him why and tell him not to tell anyone, or even to take a vow of silence or something. All within the realm of being lawful and part of a religious order with none of the risk of allowing him to leave. Because the high priest was interpreting the prophecy to literally mean "as soon as Durkon returns to the building where he lives". Eventually, Durkon would need to leave whatever building he lives in for SOME reason and when he returned, it would bring disaster. Hell, technically just stepping outside the front door to grab the newspaper could be construed as "leaving and returning". So better to just send him far, far away and make him swear never to return. In other words, the former high priest was a blithering idiot.
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Jan 19, 2013 03:14
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cafel posted:This is one of my biggest peeves in OOTS. Wouldn't it have been infinitely more effective to just order Durkon to cloister himself? It's got the same lawful weight with much less risk. In fact tell him why and tell him not to tell anyone, or even to take a vow of silence or something. All within the realm of being lawful and part of a religious order with none of the risk of allowing him to leave. Because then it would have been "something happens to the building and Durkon leaves it to save someone else", or "doesn't leave it and dies, 'returning home to his ancestors' and triggering something society-quaking with his resolve to stay true to his alignment So yeah the short of it is it wouldn't matter how it was handled. In a D&D world where oracles are a thing, you'd think they'd learn that.
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Jan 19, 2013 03:51
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If you know anything about prophecies, as you must if you're living in this comic, you necessarily expect that hearing one means you're going to make it come horribly true somehow. Ordering him to leave means that the dreadful consequences are at least delayed for as long as possible.
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Jan 19, 2013 04:20
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I feel like in real life a good DM would provide some way for the characters to prevent a prophecy like that from coming true. If your campaign depends so much on that one detail that you have to railroad them into it it's probably not worth doing in the first place. Then again doing it this way is also a good way to tell a compelling story, as is evident in OotS, but I feel like if I was running this campaign I'd let Durkon find out about the prophecy and at least try to circumvent it, even if the only way to do that is to arrange to be cremated after he finally dies. I'd want to at least give my players the chance.
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Jan 19, 2013 04:28
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my dad posted:Or, if Rich really wants to get dark, part of the endgame will include the Snarl destroying the world and the heroes finding a way to rebuild it. That way, Durkon will return to his homeland posthumously, that is, after the death of his homeland. No. Real dark would be he gets killed, Xykon makes him a zombie or something, and Durkon is part of the attack that destroys his homeland when they march the the final gate. Fulfills all the prophecies
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Jan 19, 2013 04:58
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Yeah, the smart thing to do would have obviously been to just tell Durkon the prophecy and then make him swear an oath to never leave for any reasons. He'd gladly stand in an earthquake or whatever and die if he'd been ordered to and understood why.
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Jan 19, 2013 07:59
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CapnAndy posted:Yeah, the smart thing to do would have obviously been to just tell Durkon the prophecy and then make him swear an oath to never leave for any reasons. He'd gladly stand in an earthquake or whatever and die if he'd been ordered to and understood why. I was gonna say that maybe the high priest didn't fully trust him, but then he banks on a much flimsier oath reason sooo yeah good point.
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Jan 19, 2013 08:17
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The thing to do would be to batten down the hatches and dump all your funding into disaster management readiness and then make him leave and come back. It's gonna happen, may as well happen when you're as ready as possible.
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Jan 19, 2013 09:25
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Would it have worked to install a retirement lever in Durkons room and then told him to pull it (or for non DF players, kill him by dumping him in lava)? Or would it trigger on something as a flake of ash was brought by wind or whatever and landed on his doorstep?
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Jan 19, 2013 09:58
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The thing is that the source of the prophecy was Odin himself, so even if it was possible to avert it entirely doing so would presumably be heresy. All they could do is make sure it didn't happen immediately, although the fact that no record was kept means that this probably backfired. Although, thinking of Durkon's words to V, it's possible that the real purpose of the prophecy was to get him to leave his home and cross paths with Roy, since without that the Order of the Stick never would've been formed.
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Jan 19, 2013 12:04
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