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Down With People posted:Snuff surprised me with its thorough badness. The prose was one thing, but the inconsistencies with established characters, the shallowness of the newly-introduced characters, the lack of a clear antagonist for most of the novel, the random events nature of the plot... The antagonist was apathy.
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Jan 12, 2013 06:21
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rejutka posted:The antagonist was apathy. The same antagonist of Guards! Guards!
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Jan 12, 2013 10:13
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rejutka posted:The antagonist was apathy. Well, I don't really care for that. 
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Jan 12, 2013 12:40
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rejutka posted:The antagonist was apathy. That's a stupid antagonist.
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Jan 12, 2013 17:56
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By stupid do you mean quite common in real life?
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Jan 12, 2013 18:01
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rejutka posted:By stupid do you mean quite common in real life? Many, if not all, of the Watch books have some kind of general societal prejudice as an antagonistic force that runs through the whole of the story, and usually supercedes the actual "villain" of the book. The thing is, those antagonists still exist, and are usually at least fun to read about even if their personalities aren't terribly deep. Snuff's main villain wasn't only terrible, he was a note-for-note ripoff of Andy Shank (normal guy who's just a right bastard, y'know), right down to the way he was dispatched in the ending (with another horrible monologue from Willikins, thanks ever so much for that. Real-life applicability means nothing if the writing is bad. Snuff's writing, with the exception of maybe forty-fifty pages, was that of someone desperately trying to grasp the feel of Discworld and doing a poor job of it.
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Jan 12, 2013 18:07
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Yeah the writing wasn't up to... eh, moving on. I agree it felt like an aping of Discworld rather than Discworld and SuperVimes was, frankly, unnecessary at best. Vimes is best described by Chrysoprase in Thud! I chalk the rubbish bad guy antagonist up to being a thing now due to affliction.
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Jan 12, 2013 18:17
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Oxxidation posted:Real-life applicability means nothing if the writing is bad. Snuff's writing, with the exception of maybe forty-fifty pages, was that of someone desperately trying to grasp the feel of Discworld and doing a poor job of it. I think it might be that the rural area hasn't really been shown much in Discworld and hasn't really got much built on other than it being basically the image of the rural home counties, with crockett. Also only after looking at the map on the Ankh Morpork boardgame have I got that the Isle of Gods is pretty much the Isle of Dogs, just with Dogs reversed.
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Jan 12, 2013 18:29
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Maybe it's because Pterry is a humorist that his psychopaths (Teatime, Cox in Nation) are so compelling, scary, and believable, because they catch you off guard. His fanatics and ideologues (Vorbis, the Deep-Downers, the Auditors) also tend to be pretty memorable, scary, and well-fleshed out, as he seems to possess a truly nuanced understanding of how those types actually tick. When you've written as many books as he has, of course a few baddies are going to be duds. The antagonists that fall outside of these two types do tend to be less memorable, at least for me. Tartarus Sauce fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Jan 12, 2013 |
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Jan 12, 2013 19:18
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Snuff's... "off-ness" was noticeable, but I still enjoyed it and I thought it was a turn back closer to form after I Shall Wear Midnight, which really was jarringly off the entire way through, at least for me. Then again I also didn't really notice many problems with the prose of Unseen Academicals, which most folks around here seem to hate, so take that with a grain of salt. (The goblin subplot, I could have done without. The main plot and the prose and dialogue, though, no problems that I can recall.)
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Jan 12, 2013 21:18
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King Doom posted:Okay, so, Turtle Recall. Who the hell is the guy on the very left of the cover image?
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Jan 13, 2013 20:01
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Tartarus Sauce posted:His fanatics and ideologues (Vorbis Not long ago I listened to the radio adaptation of Small Gods one night. While obviously it doesn't hit every single plot point and joke, it's more complete than I thought it would be and the Brutha/Vorbis actors really sell it.
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Jan 13, 2013 22:47
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Oxxidation posted:Raising Taxes or whatever he's planning for Moist would be best. Nearly all of the other characters have been wrapped up to some extent. Rincewind is happily living a desperately boring life; Vimes ended with a literal snapshot in Thud! (I ignore Snuff because it was depressingly bad); Cohen is Viking'ing the poo poo out of space; Granny Weatherwax had a perfect finish in Carpe Jugulum, disregarding her minor role in Tiffany's story, which also finished well. Spooky, you are me. Moist is a great character. I have flicked through Snuff and it read like a floppy, shoddy first draft. Vimes' story is really over, he should be retired to cameo character. sebmojo fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Jan 14, 2013 |
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Jan 14, 2013 01:49
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After seeing the Hobbit, I'm starting to wonder how Pratchett felt about Radagast since Ridcully was written as an opposing parody.
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Jan 14, 2013 02:00
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sebmojo posted:Spooky, you are me. Moist is a great character. I have flicked through Snuff and it read like a floppy, shoddy first draft. Vimes' story is really over, he should be retired to cameo character. I liked Snuff, but not as much as the other Vimes books. The writing was weird, but not terrible, or at least not terrible by fantasy standards. I'm not sure the goblin/slavery thing was really handled well, but I can understand where the "apathy is the antagonist" thing comes from, even if it was handled better in previous books. Moist doesn't really appeal to me much. I'm not sure why. Going Postal was a great novel, don't get me wrong, but I'd rather have an Ankh-Morpork book focusing on Vetinari and the various "civic leaders" than another Moist book. JerryLee posted:Snuff's... "off-ness" was noticeable, but I still enjoyed it and I thought it was a turn back closer to form after I Shall Wear Midnight, which really was jarringly off the entire way through, at least for me. Could you explain what's "off" about I Shall Wear Midnight? I find it very enjoyable. The only "off" thing was that we've never really seen a history of witch-hunts in Discworld, and it felt a bit jarring to have one suddenly come up (no more so than goblins/orcs, but still a little jarring). I thought the end to Tiffany's story was pretty cool. Apparently a lot of people were expecting Tiff and Roland to get married, but when does that sort of thing really happen in these novels? The only other major character I can think of who ends up married is Magrat, and that's so far from Tiff and Roland that they can't really be compared.
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Jan 14, 2013 07:30
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Moist is popular because he's basically used (in-universe by Vetinari and out-of-universe by Pratchett) as a 'small Vetinari' who isn't already in charge but uses the same ability to manipulate people with an understanding of how they think to get what he wants. With that in mind, the natural thing thing to do would be to write 'Making Money' and then write a final Diskworld novel that's about Vetinari grooming Moist to take over the Patricianship and handing over to the next generation (evading the traditional horrible and messy end that Patricians get).
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Jan 14, 2013 10:28
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Yeah, Vetinari seems to be the type to know how to even arrange his own "death" to serve his goals. Wonder if Pratchett will do a Moist vs Carrot/Vimes book? There's no way either of them would like Moist in charge.
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Jan 14, 2013 19:25
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Mister Roboto posted:Yeah, Vetinari seems to be the type to know how to even arrange his own "death" to serve his goals. Well the whole point of a 'handover' plot is that it would be a convenient and appropriate way for Terry to write a 'final novel'. Make it about life, everything he wants to say about euthanasia, passing on your responsibilities to another generation, and get a little 'death of the author' joke in there for good measure. And yeah, if the author has his own death planned then Vetinari certainly has an 'out' in the works.
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Jan 14, 2013 20:40
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Alchenar posted:Moist is popular because he's basically used (in-universe by Vetinari and out-of-universe by Pratchett) as a 'small Vetinari' who isn't already in charge but uses the same ability to manipulate people with an understanding of how they think to get what he wants. He's also a Lovable Bastard with lots of clever moments and lines. If Terry does write out Vetinari, I imagine he'll end up on a beach somewhere watching the sunset with Mr. Wuffles. 
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Jan 14, 2013 23:45
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precision posted:He's also a Lovable Bastard with lots of clever moments and lines. Mr. Wuffles...who has passed on?
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Jan 15, 2013 05:14
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Mister Roboto posted:Mr. Wuffles...who has passed on? I totally don't remember that happening. Oh well.
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Jan 15, 2013 06:12
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They could do that in the Desert.
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Jan 15, 2013 06:24
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precision posted:I totally don't remember that happening. Oh well. Topsy's dog is the new (old) dog. That's Going Postal unless my brain malfunctioned.
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Jan 15, 2013 06:36
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precision posted:I totally don't remember that happening. Oh well. Yeah, but he adopted Mr Fusspot from Making Money so he isn't alone.
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Jan 15, 2013 06:41
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Vengeance of Pandas posted:Yeah, but he adopted Mr Fusspot from Making Money so he isn't alone. gently caress, I knew I was off.
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Jan 15, 2013 07:02
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precision posted:If Terry does write out Vetinari, I imagine he'll end up on a beach somewhere watching the sunset with Mr. Wuffles. For a final Discworld (From Pterry's hand, mind you) I'd rather see suggestions. Like Vetinari suggesting his successor, but it is never shown who it is. Hell, that could be the final Moist book as well, since it fits into Moist's own MO (Nobody wins at these things, but you just might!) Dangling the entire city infront of Moist to make him do something (proper labour rights for dwarfs and Golems involved in the Undertaking, a new tax system, something) and watch him jump.
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Jan 15, 2013 14:44
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What major technological analogues are left for the Disc? They have(had) movies, the Internet, newspapers, money, guns, and a whole bunch more I can't be arsed to think of. Do they have cell phones yet?
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Jan 15, 2013 23:15
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precision posted:What major technological analogues are left for the Disc? They have(had) movies, the Internet, newspapers, money, guns, and a whole bunch more I can't be arsed to think of. Do they have cell phones yet? The sort of have cell phones, with the clacks. Nightwatch or some book mentioned people checking messages during lunch etc.
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Jan 16, 2013 00:00
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Ika posted:The sort of have cell phones, with the clacks. Nightwatch or some book mentioned people checking messages during lunch etc. The clacks is a fax machine in a world without telephones, hence the name. As the technology behind it has improved it's turned into a steampunk internet.
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Jan 16, 2013 00:08
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precision posted:What major technological analogues are left for the Disc? They have(had) movies, the Internet, newspapers, money, guns, and a whole bunch more I can't be arsed to think of. Do they have cell phones yet? They have PDAs. If Vimes' PDA imp could tell him what's going on in an alternate timeline, there's gotta be a way to make one that can communicate over distance with another PDA imp to relay messages.
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Jan 16, 2013 09:51
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wheatpuppy posted:They have PDAs. If Vimes' PDA imp could tell him what's going on in an alternate timeline, there's gotta be a way to make one that can communicate over distance with another PDA imp to relay messages. It does, via the BlueNose messenger service and the clacks. Vimes just never uses it.
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Jan 16, 2013 12:13
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precision posted:What major technological analogues are left for the Disc? They have(had) movies, the Internet, newspapers, money, guns, and a whole bunch more I can't be arsed to think of. Do they have cell phones yet?
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Jan 16, 2013 18:53
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bunnyofdoom posted:Planes, trains and/or automobiles? Only a matter of time before somebody does what Nanny Ogg suggested in Witches Abroad.
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Jan 16, 2013 18:59
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SeanBeansShako posted:Only a matter of time before somebody does what Nanny Ogg suggested in Witches Abroad. That would require lots of magic, which would probably lead to bad things
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Jan 16, 2013 23:16
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The Candyman posted:That would require lots of magic, which would probably lead to bad things Why would you assume it'd run on magic? The humble swamp dragon clearly has proved its use for that sort of thing already.
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Jan 17, 2013 00:31
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bunnyofdoom posted:Planes, trains and/or automobiles? Vetinari's Undertaking is heavily implied to be an Ankh-Morpork equivalent of the London Underground, using the Devices unearthed in Thud! So he's got that covered.
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Jan 17, 2013 03:39
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Mister Roboto posted:The Witches books are, strangely, the only ones of the series I don't have. I have multiple copies of Fifth Elephant and Jingo and Last Continent...but somehow never got Lords and Ladies or Witches Abroad. Do you have the Last Hero? That's the only one in the main series I haven't read yet. Looking ahead, I really want to see one more Moist book - the Taxman cometh - and then something else to tie up the series would be wonderful. Actually, I'm a greedy jerk and want to see some supernerd run shrieking all the way to the UK with an experimental cure that gives Pterry a new lease on life and as a side effect gives us another half dozen new books to read.  I like to think that maybe, just maybe if he holds on a little longer we'll find something to help him. Then I look over at "Snuff" and wonder if that's what's in store for the next few novels. Ugh. I am going to reread it again soonish but my first read-through was pretty disappointing. I love Vimes as a character and this book just felt off in so many ways.
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Jan 18, 2013 17:26
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CuddleChunks posted:Do you have the Last Hero? That's the only one in the main series I haven't read yet. Why, yes, I do. Maybe we can work something out? What have you got there?
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Jan 18, 2013 23:45
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Sweet! Yes, we can definitely work something out. I'll go check my library, I think I have the whole Witches arc.
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Jan 20, 2013 09:36
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Anyone here got the Discworld board game? or is there a thread floating about it? I've been having a look but can't see much. I'm interested in picking it up but am a bit unsure how it plays, I wouldn't mind some opinions from you guys/gals.
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Jan 22, 2013 04:17
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