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Detective No. 27 posted:I caught the River Guardian! To catch the Sea Guardian, I need to use Genji Beetles, right? Yes, and he puts up quite a fight so save beforehand. (Make sure you talk to the old dude first)
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Jan 21, 2013 01:33
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Boten Anna posted:Which is exactly why the characterization of them is really hosed up. To make a long story short, it basically twists Jungian psychiatry to assert the exact things "reparative therapy" does. Endorph fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Jan 21, 2013 |
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Jan 21, 2013 01:36
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Endorph posted:Kanji isn't gay and Naoto isn't trans. Like I agree their characterization/writing isn't perfect but. Yeah, their shadow dungeons lean toward it heavily, but every playable character's dungeon was pretty heavily sexualized in a way that's not necessarily in line with their character, which makes sense because they are all hormonal teenagers. Their shadows were heavily sexualized in a way that carries over into their non-sexual self doubts. See Kanji's self doubts about himself. He agonizes over the fact that he likes arts and crafts poo poo and is condemned by his peers for not being masculine. All he really wanted was to be accepted by his peers, and to his shadow self that meant to tack to the homosexual because in his minds eye that's what people would think of him should he admit his crafty side to the world. Naoto is in a different situation, I feel like she could be viewed as a trans person not because of her sexual identity (which I see her as more of an asexual/leaning feminine person in that regard) but because of cultural identity. She has it worked into her head (possibly correctly) that the culture of Inaba and possibly Japan as a whole as against women as detectives/investigators. So she adjusts her look and her personality to put herself in a better position to be taken seriously as a detective. Her shadow just cranks that feeling up to 10 and creates Dr. Naoto's Mad Mad Sex Change Bunker when she gets thrown in the TV.
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Jan 21, 2013 01:50
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Endorph posted:There's absolutely no way that's what they were going for and frankly I don't even see how you can read it that way. I mean in Naoto's case especially she never even identified as trans to begin with. their stories go into touchy subjects, there's no perfect way to handle it I identified greatly with both Kanji and Naoto. They mirror how I felt in high school and early college respectively. Saying that it's 'reparative therapy' because a person cannot be gender confused for a few years trying to figure themselves out is unfair. In Kanji's case, he also mentioned being able to relax more around guys and scared of girls. It's not merely that he enjoyed crafts. MeruFM fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Jan 21, 2013 |
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Jan 21, 2013 01:53
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Larsson posted:Yes, and he puts up quite a fight so save beforehand. Talking to the old man did the trick! Hell yeah! You're now my fishing-senpai!
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Jan 21, 2013 01:54
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MeruFM posted:In Kanji's case, he also mentioned being able to relax more around guys and scared of girls. It's not merely that he enjoyed crafts. It ran both ways, girls were uncomfortable around him because of his hobbies and personality. That in turn would make him uneasy around girls because he didn't know if they would ostracize him, so he'd double down on being a social outsider, which made girls uncomfortable. It's an ouroboros of misery. DeathSandwich fucked around with this message at 02:40 on Jan 21, 2013 |
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Jan 21, 2013 02:22
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I'm just about to start up a Very Hard NG+, but I'm wondering, which of these is more effective for Almighty spam? Helel and Morning Star or Lucifer and Megidolaon? Assuming their stats are equal, which has the better damage output, since I know that base level factors into the damage calculation, so I dunno if the difference between their base levels is enough to make Megidolaon more powerful or not. I wish I could just drop Izanagi-no-Okami into the compendium. 
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Jan 21, 2013 02:45
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I just tested it with my 83-magic Helel and 82-magic Lucifer, and Helel dealt about 10% more damage. I'm guessing that the difference in base level would have to be much greater to make a significant difference (for instance, my Level 99 Ghoul just wasn't cutting it by the endgame, despite having maxed three of its stats).
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Jan 21, 2013 02:55
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Boten Anna posted:Which is exactly why the characterization of them is really hosed up. To make a long story short, it basically twists Jungian psychiatry to assert the exact things "reparative therapy" does. Shadows aren't just the character's hidden side. Rather it's the hidden side + the emotions they have toward that hidden side cranked up to maximum. Kanji doesn't hate girls, he just never understood why they were always so mean to him because he liked doing the same things he did and began to resent them because he felt they were holding him back from being himself. Naoto being trans is also a common misconception. She wanted to be a boy not because she thought she was born in the wrong body, but because she thought men were more respected in her career. That isn't the same. At the end of her social link she says she's happy the way she is because she likes being a detective no matter what. This "reparative therapy" stuff you're thinking of is looking way too deeply into the text. The writing isn't perfect, but it makes it very clear what the characters are really like and there's no therapy going on. "Facing your shadow" is just a fancy way of saying "facing feelings you buried away because you were ashamed of them". They aren't the true self like they claim to be, they are a dark part that the characters hide away out of fear of what people will think of them if they knew. It's a big deal that they appear on the Midnight Channel, where anyone can see them.
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Jan 21, 2013 03:07
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I think the main issue with Kanji and Naoto is that, even if the game does not mean for them to be queer characters, it brings up queer issues in relation to their problems only to suggest that queerness is something you need to get over on your way to becoming "normal" and happy. Then, problems associated with the "abnormal" part of the self are made into the butts of running jokes. To someone who has experienced being queer, this comes across as belittling and callow. Questioning gender and sexuality can be really scary and a big deal when you are a teenager (or at any age, honestly) but the game treats it off-handedly. I don't think it matters whether the writers mean for Kanji to be "actually gay" or for Naoto to be "actually trans;" what's important is that they bring in some really complex issues and proceed to do absolutely nothing with them (I don't think they did this deliberately - it seems more the product of general disinterest). It's frustrating and feels like a missed opportunity.
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Jan 21, 2013 04:17
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I would have loved, loved it if a relatively mainstream game like Persona 4 could have made some progressive portrayals of homosexuality and attributed some deep characterization to it, but let's face it: that was never, ever going to happen. They were always going to take the shortcut by have both of them never really "different" in the first place. The preceding posts are honestly just looking way too deep into the subject matter, scrounging for points that sadly the game designers were too scared to actual put in and make statements about. Kanji and Naoto have their insecurities about some aspects about their personality, but we can only take what we got at face value. And what we got were two characters that didn't have to "get over" anything other than an exaggeration of what little was there, and then then accept what was there rather than make a big deal about it. E: lotus circle pretty much has it right if you do want to dig as deep as you can. Nate RFB fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Jan 21, 2013 |
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Jan 21, 2013 04:31
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You know, I always wondered why the velvet room's music always seemed so thematically different than all the other music in P3 and P4, but now that I'm playing Persona 2, I see exactly why it fit there and actually still does now. Back in persona 2 the velvet room was still an actual room rather than an elevator or a limo, and as such actually has a piano player and an opera singer. It's actually a really neat touch and brings the velvet room music in P3 and P4 into perspective.
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Jan 21, 2013 05:50
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Boten Anna posted:Usually I'm so busy gettin' all mad at the problematic elements of Naoto and Kanji's characterization that I forget that they are super loving lovely to Hanako too. She could have been a way more interesting character and with a good social link maybe even, rather than just an outlet for lovely fat jokes that pretend there are people who actually exist who are, say, overweight and are somehow magically not aware of all the poo poo and hatred directed at them constantly. Can you even play a video game without seeing LGBT and otherkin issues?
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Jan 21, 2013 07:02
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Schubalts posted:I still don't get the P4 guys's irrational dislike of Kashiwagi. "Wrong side of 40"? If a 40+ year old woman had that figure in real life I think Japan hates old people
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Jan 21, 2013 07:16
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She tries really hard, but she's no Hanako.
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The dislike is because she's an awful teacher and incredibly stupid to boot. Say what you will about Morooka he at least helped the female students feel good about themselves (If random NPCs are to believed) and was pretty funny if kind of a dick. Although, maybe the writers did just need two goons to make fun of and Kashiwagi being 40+ and Hanako being fat gave them enough of a reason to make fun of them, I dunno. I mean it's an anime game, it's not like most of the humor's going to be good or have good reason behind it (IE: All of the culture festival that isn't with S. Link students).
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Jan 21, 2013 07:20
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How much wiggle room do you have to finish every link on an NG+? The walkthroughs I've seen are all super-precise day-by-day poo poo and I think trying to follow those would completely suck the fun out of it.
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Jan 21, 2013 11:27
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Really Pants posted:How much wiggle room do you have to finish every link on an NG+? The walkthroughs I've seen are all super-precise day-by-day poo poo and I think trying to follow those would completely suck the fun out of it. Now that you don't need to worry about stats it gives a lot more time to focus on the links. I still suggest using your time wisely and knowing what characters are available on what days so you can plan things out, which a guide can provide to you. Rainy days should be either Sun or Hermit days (Hermit if you completed the quest and need to visit the shrine to Rank Up) for sure as they are normally the only two links available in that weather. I managed to do them all without a guide, but I also did mention that I went up until the very last days I could (Yukiko was my last S.Link to max and I only finished her two or three days before the cut-off day in February) If you aren't using Nights to work on Hierophant, Justice, Devil or Tower, look around for S.Links in the neighborhood to talk with. Talking with them for the night can help a lot if you need more points before you can rank up with them.
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Jan 21, 2013 12:25
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I think Golden gives you a lot more time to max stuff out than Vanilla P4 did but there are also new S.Links so I'm not sure.
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Jan 21, 2013 12:53
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THE AWESOME GHOST posted:I think Golden gives you a lot more time to max stuff out than Vanilla P4 did but there are also new S.Links so I'm not sure.
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Jan 21, 2013 12:54
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lotus circle posted:Think of it this way. With Jester you only need to rank up to 6 and the rest is automatic so that saves a lot of time. And Marie's S.Link isn't hard to max, I maybe spent one or two extra days with her to max it. Parts of it are at night too and there aren't many night links. Also getting shrine fortunes at night was never in there, you can probably have no wasted "You'll get closer soon" days this way. Gameplay wise though if you want the Bike skills and stuff that's potentially 5 days per party member.
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Jan 21, 2013 12:59
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You get about an extra month, and the two new S. Links take up maybe 14 days if you ignore Jester's nighttime events. So there's definitely more time there. The real bonus is the shrine, which allows you to further along links at will, on top of being able to meet with people around town anyway. The only big obstacles to maxing all the links IMO are bike dates. Especially on your initial run, there is pretty much no time for bike dates at all. I don't think this really a big deal since I was not impressed with most of the skills you could get, besides Yukiko's Mind Charge and some of Naoto's.
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Jan 21, 2013 14:45
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Exmond posted:Can you even play a video game without seeing LGBT and otherkin issues? I think they have a good point. How are LGBT and otherkin even remotely related? Boten Anna posted:Which is exactly why the characterization of them is really hosed up. To make a long story short, it basically twists Jungian psychiatry to assert the exact things "reparative therapy" does. Thanks. I was thinking something similar. I still love the game an it will probably always be one of my favorites but I'm happy to see someone else give their input on this. I haven't seen the anime but I am told that they are a little nicer to Hanako. She's still a fat joke but they don't maker her as conceited. Is that true? FIRE CURES BIGOTS fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Jan 21, 2013 |
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Jan 21, 2013 16:55
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Nate RFB posted:The only big obstacles to maxing all the links IMO are bike dates. Especially on your initial run, there is pretty much no time for bike dates at all. I don't think this really a big deal since I was not impressed with most of the skills you could get, besides Yukiko's Mind Charge and some of Naoto's. I got Megido on Yosuke since Diarama wasn't cutting it and Winds of Youth combines healing and Masukukaja anyway. It's mildly useful for when I don't want to bother with resistances and it's cheaper than Magarudyne. Kanji gets healing spells and a multi-target Physical skill from them,. Bufudyne is Naoto's best spell for Mind Charging if you get a good ice vow, since there is now an ice-boosting gun. Chie gets Bufudyne and Hamaon which might be handy, especially Hamaon. Teddie's Evade Physical and Mustard Bomb are interesting but his skillset is cramped as is. I haven't actually tried these, though. Speaking of, Cake Attack, your skill lists in the OP has a few problems. Yukiko gets Matarunda, not Marakunda, and Rise's is all different. She gets Relaxing Wave at 52 and upgrades it to Vigor Song at 79, for example.
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Jan 21, 2013 17:22
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:I got Megido on Yosuke since Diarama wasn't cutting it and Winds of Youth combines healing and Masukukaja anyway. It's mildly useful for when I don't want to bother with resistances and it's cheaper than Magarudyne. Rise's was the old skill list, yeah. I noticed that it was completely different (buffed) in Golden. And drat Yukiko getting Tarunda instead of Rakunda is way worse than I thought. I guess it's still worth it for the Mind Charge on NG+. I think Hama is 100% hit if you use it on a weak enemy right? So you don't need to get to Hamaon if you're not going all the way anyway, this way Yukiko and Chie can cover light and dark since I'm not using Naoto on NG+.
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Jan 21, 2013 18:44
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THE AWESOME GHOST posted:Rise's was the old skill list, yeah. I noticed that it was completely different (buffed) in Golden.
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Jan 21, 2013 18:58
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A Mind Charged Burning Petals is probably the most damage you can do in the game outside of certain Power Charged physical attacks.
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Jan 21, 2013 19:17
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THE AWESOME GHOST posted:I think Hama is 100% hit if you use it on a weak enemy right? I've had a dark-weak enemy avoid a boosted Die For Me! so it's extremely likely but not 100%. I miss God's Bow, which was around 100% if you didn't null Expel.
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Jan 21, 2013 19:44
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Really? I'm pretty sure that Die For Me! and Samsara are 100% kills unless the monster resists hama/mudo. Edit: Apparently that's not true. Huh. Tricky fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Jan 21, 2013 |
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Jan 21, 2013 19:56
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How much of a boost do your All-Outs get from bike dates with Rise? Does it affect all of them, or just the ones where she joins in?
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Jan 21, 2013 21:31
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Thinking of springing for a Vita mostly for this game. Not sure if it's a spoiler since it's on page 1, but is Is the fsteak line voiced? If so, game of the year.
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Jan 21, 2013 22:40
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Tricky posted:Really? I'm pretty sure that Die For Me! and Samsara are 100% kills unless the monster resists hama/mudo. It was the first time I had ever seen such a thing, and neutral shadows surviving one is uncommon but can happen. But it's still really bloody likely and usually worth the 44 SP if you know the target's light/dark resistance. Since Rise prioritizes those two it's usually easy to tell.
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Jan 21, 2013 22:43
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Captain Walker posted:Thinking of springing for a Vita mostly for this game. Not sure if it's a spoiler since it's on page 1, but is Is the fsteak line voiced? If so, game of the year.
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Jan 21, 2013 22:50
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Rascyc posted:Yes but I think she just says steak. No, she does pronounce the f.
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Jan 21, 2013 22:54
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Oh man I need this, thanks
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Jan 21, 2013 22:56
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kirbysuperstar posted:No, she does pronounce the f.
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Jan 21, 2013 22:57
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It's funny in the comic when it has context, but the translators really just threw it in as a reference. It really has no reason to be there even in the context of the conversation it's used in and it's turned into an actual thing later in the S. Link instead of a one time joke, so it's just dumb at that point because it has even less context than before. IE: The joke was funny because Hiimdaisy is good at comedy and the Atlus team is bad at referential humor.
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Jan 21, 2013 23:00
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Man after finishing this and Persona 4 Arena, I am all ready for Persona 5 to be some awesome Investigation Team/SEES team-up to bring down (kinda sorta speculative P4A spoilers?)Nyarlathotep.
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Jan 21, 2013 23:08
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Sex_Ferguson posted:It's funny in the comic when it has context, but the translators really just threw it in as a reference. No, they threw it in there because in the original Japanese dialogue, she asks why it's called "bifuteki" and you can tell her it's short for "bifusuteki." At which point she says it should be called "fusuteki" instead. "Fsteak" was the closest English approximation they could come up with; being a reference to the comic was a coincidence.
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Jan 21, 2013 23:09
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Sex_Ferguson posted:It's funny in the comic when it has context, but the translators really just threw it in as a reference. It really has no reason to be there even in the context of the conversation it's used in and it's turned into an actual thing later in the S. Link instead of a one time joke, so it's just dumb at that point because it has even less context than before. I kind of prefer the dragged out answer, since hearing a monotone "steaaaaak" is better than some silly translation joke.
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Jan 21, 2013 23:09
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Sex_Ferguson posted:It's funny in the comic when it has context, but the translators really just threw it in as a reference. It's in the Japanese version, too. Really Pants posted:How much of a boost do your All-Outs get from bike dates with Rise? Does it affect all of them, or just the ones where she joins in? It only affects the ones where she joins in.
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Jan 21, 2013 23:12
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