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Irish Taxi Driver posted:I know Half-Life had autosaving. Checkpoints proper, Medal of Honor? Wasn't the autosaving kinda hosed in Half-Life? I seem to remember something about autosaves weren't persistent and deleted themselves once you turned the game off so they were only used on a per-session basis and you still had to manually save before you turned the game off.
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Jan 22, 2013 21:44
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Tiger Schwert posted:Unrestricted saving/loading is really really sloppy, unconfident design to me, and probably the biggest thing I hate about Doom and most classic PC games. If I can't do the map without quicksaving, 9 times out of 10 I can't do the map. Tiger Schwert took into account the general negative reaction to his usual schtick about how Brutal Doom is ruining the purity of Doom and is now taking aim at a feature from the original game. You know what I hate about Doom? Sectors. Edited: sorry John Galt ExMortis fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Jan 22, 2013 |
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Jan 22, 2013 21:51
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ExMortis posted:Tiger Schwert took into account the general negative reaction to his usual schtick about how Brutal Doom is ruining the purity of Doom and is now taking aim at a feature from the original game. You know what I hate about Doom? Sectors. What? Seriously. What? Could you provide a link or a quote or something?
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Jan 22, 2013 21:54
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So, back on the topic of Quake Machinima, I finally dug up a copy of Fiend Run Lite which is probably my favorite.
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Jan 22, 2013 21:55
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Yodzilla posted:Wasn't the autosaving kinda hosed in Half-Life? I seem to remember something about autosaves weren't persistent and deleted themselves once you turned the game off so they were only used on a per-session basis and you still had to manually save before you turned the game off. There were a few games that would give you a free save every time you entered a new map (regardless of whether you'd spend five minutes or an hour getting to the next one), but the original Halo for Xbox is the first FPS I can think of that totally excluded the manual save command.
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Jan 22, 2013 21:58
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Oh I wasn't even talking about not letting you save manually, I meant just keeping an autosave on top of manual saves. I distinctly remember the original Far Cry being poo poo all over for not letting people manually save and only relying on a checkpoint system. That seriously sent PC gamers in a blind rage back in the day.
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Jan 22, 2013 22:02
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Yodzilla posted:Wasn't the autosaving kinda hosed in Half-Life? I seem to remember something about autosaves weren't persistent and deleted themselves once you turned the game off so they were only used on a per-session basis and you still had to manually save before you turned the game off. There were definitely times where I'd be playing Half Life 1 and autosaves would disappear when I exited the game, and other times where they'd stay there just fine. Either way it scared me into making sure to do manual saves so I wouldn't lose progress.  It might have even gotten fixed in a patch but I'd never know.
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Jan 22, 2013 22:08
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Yodzilla posted:I've never known someone who has played a Doom game and when respawned back at the beginning of the level with no supplies just said "yeah okay that's how it should be." You always reloaded a previous save and were expected to keep running saves as you played. That's just how it was with games of that era. Hell all of the Build engine games did the same thing when you died and people just knew to reload a save there too. I know Marathon, System Shock, and Descent didn't, and Half-Life did. I don't think Quake 2 did but it's been a long time since I played it. Did Unreal have checkpoints? WHOIS John Galt posted:What? Seriously. What? Could you provide a link or a quote or something? Look at the post quoted in the post you just quoted.
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Jan 22, 2013 22:25
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ToxicFrog posted:Look at the post quoted in the post you just quoted. It wasn't there before. Ugh. I'm an idiot. I thought he was actually talking about the Brutal Doom author.
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Jan 22, 2013 22:25
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ToxicFrog posted:Did Unreal have checkpoints? I'm trying really hard but I honestly don't remember. I want to say it saved at the beginning of levels so at least when you respawned you had all of the weapons you did previously but I really don't know if that's true.
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Jan 22, 2013 22:40
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ToxicFrog posted:I know Marathon, System Shock, and Descent didn't, and Half-Life did. I don't think Quake 2 did but it's been a long time since I played it. I THINK Quake II did auto-save but only when you beat a level.
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Jan 22, 2013 22:41
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Having recently played through that yeah that's how it worked in Quake II.
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Jan 22, 2013 22:42
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ToxicFrog posted:I know Marathon, System Shock, and Descent didn't, and Half-Life did. I don't think Quake 2 did but it's been a long time since I played it. Marathon kind of had a checkpoint system, in that it used saved games but you could only save at certain points as you progress through the map. I think Unreal saved between levels, but since the levels were fairly short and the transitions between them were otherwise seamless I guess you could call it a checkpoint system.
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Jan 22, 2013 22:53
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Yodzilla posted:I distinctly remember the original Far Cry being poo poo all over for not letting people manually save and only relying on a checkpoint system. That seriously sent PC gamers in a blind rage back in the day. It was such a big deal they actually patched quicksaves into the game. I like the checkpoint style, but it's good to have both options.
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Jan 22, 2013 22:56
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DoombatINC posted:Marathon kind of had a checkpoint system, in that it used saved games but you could only save at certain points as you progress through the map. Marathon had a godawful save system which practically cancelled out all the good things going for it. The first one in particular had some terrible checkpointing, including one hidden in an interminable maze of suicide bombers. By contrast, Doom's was pretty good. The thing I never realised until years later is that every level is designed to be completable from a pistol start, and in many cases it's actually more enjoyable that way. SavageMessiah made a decent addon that resets you to starting health and loadout after each level and I use it for pretty much everything that supports it.
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Jan 22, 2013 23:10
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Convex posted:Marathon had a godawful save system which practically cancelled out all the good things going for it. The first one in particular had some terrible checkpointing, including one hidden in an interminable maze of suicide bombers. Later games on the Marathon engine (Prime Target, Damage Incorporated, ZPC) allowed saves at any time. ZPC went the extra mile to piss off the player and tied its saved games to a rare (and often hidden) item that was consumed with each save, making its save system actually more infuriating than Marathon's.
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Jan 22, 2013 23:18
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Gay Abortions posted:So, back on the topic of Quake Machinima, I finally dug up a copy of Fiend Run Lite which is probably my favorite. What is this I don't even Is it just a model swap? Or like a mod or something? Seems like he's jumping higher without rocketjumping, some kinda mod where you play as a Fiend? (Or as a guy on a Fiend's back, lol)
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Jan 22, 2013 23:31
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DoombatINC posted:Later games on the Marathon engine (Prime Target, Damage Incorporated, ZPC) allowed saves at any time. ZPC went the extra mile to piss off the player and tied its saved games to a rare (and often hidden) item that was consumed with each save, making its save system actually more infuriating than Marathon's. Man I tried to play ZPC a few years ago after seeing it way back when in magazines thinking it looked really cool. What a terrible game.
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Jan 22, 2013 23:34
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I don't remember anyone saying anything about ZPC one way or the other except to note that the art was done by the guy who also does KMFDM's album covers.
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Jan 22, 2013 23:41
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I've beaten ZPC and of the three commercial Marathon engine FPSes it's both the least playable and the one I want the most to see remade. The Brute Propaganda art was great, the story had some teeth and in the right hands I could see it being made into a very stylish nightmare of an FPS. As it stands, I'd love a ZPC poster for my wall but can't see myself going so far as to install the game again.
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Jan 22, 2013 23:51
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ExMortis posted:Tiger Schwert took into account the general negative reaction to his usual schtick about how Brutal Doom is ruining the purity of Doom and is now taking aim at a feature from the original game. You know what I hate about Doom? Sectors. You can think this and also dislike the gameplay and aesthetic changes that brutal doom introduce to the game. They're not mutually exclusive positions.
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Jan 22, 2013 23:55
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Install Gentoo posted:I THINK Quake II did auto-save but only when you beat a level. That's basically what half life did, it just divided up levels in a funny way and autosaved whenever you went from one to another regardless of whether or not you "beat" it (this was really noticeable in Blast Pit IIRC, since you had to leave the blast pit map to activate one of the fuel lines, then come back to it to actually turn it on, and you would save every time you crossed the boundary). On a related note, someone went in by hand and stitched every half life map together into one giant one. http://www.accursedfarms.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=815 Shame that because of all the scripting you couldn't load it up in a modified HL engine like sing and play it like that doom2 all levels in one map wad. Red_Mage fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Jan 23, 2013 |
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Jan 23, 2013 00:14
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ExMortis posted:Tiger Schwert took into account the general negative reaction to his usual schtick about how Brutal Doom is ruining the purity of Doom and is now taking aim at a feature from the original game. You know what I hate about Doom? Sectors. Uh, he literally says, in the same post, that it's one of the things he dislikes about the original doom. Sorry not everyone likes Brutal Doom.
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Jan 23, 2013 00:32
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Yodzilla posted:I've never known someone who has played a Doom game and when respawned back at the beginning of the level with no supplies just said "yeah okay that's how it should be." This is how I play the game. It's also how most of the levels were designed to be played. Good WADs, like scythe, also play better this way. You should try it some time, it's much more fun. It really annoys me that gzdoom defaults to autosaves, I'm not sure how it works but some wads seem to pistol start you upon death and others load an autosave. I often have to resort to opening a console and reloading the map to play the way I want. Amethyst fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Jan 23, 2013 |
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Jan 23, 2013 00:35
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Spaz Medicine posted:It was such a big deal they actually patched quicksaves into the game. I like the checkpoint style, but it's good to have both options. Yeah checkpoints really didn't work all that well in Far Cry since it was a very methodical game with large open levels, so it was very easy to waste half an hour of effort spent setting up the perfect approach. In Just Cause 2, however, I love that I can play it how I want without having to go out of my way to save. When you screw something up, you never waste much time and there are no real penalties. Korendian Leader posted:You can think this and also dislike the gameplay and aesthetic changes that brutal doom introduce to the game. They're not mutually exclusive positions. Yeah, you can. It's just when you get on peoples' case for liking a different approach to the game that you enter crazytown, which tends to happen more towards Brutal Doom players than pistol start dudes. I can't remember if it was Tiger or not, but someone a couple pages back was lamenting that people had the absolute gall to request that a wad be made compatible with Brutal Doom. Tiny Timbs fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Jan 23, 2013 |
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Jan 23, 2013 00:40
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"Save anywhere" really is a kludge though. If you find yourself having to patch it in, you hosed up somewhere along the line. Why even have a "game over" state if you just let the player save whenever they want?
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Jan 23, 2013 00:42
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Amethyst posted:"Save anywhere" really is a kludge though. If you find yourself having to patch it in, you hosed up somewhere along the line. Honestly I don't think most games should have a "game over" at all. I think its a carryover from the early days when gaming was about high scores and extreme skill and sucking down quarters. In the modern age of easy to play Call of Duty games, why keep killing me with grenades every so often? I think games should find more ways to "soft punish" the player rather than resetting them at the beginning. Only roguelikes should have game over, games that are built AROUND it as a mechanic. Dark Souls, Devil May Cry, sure. (although even DMC3 realized that starting over after every boss failure was dumb and special edition made it so that you could try the boss over and over and over). Is Doom completely boring if you play on IDDQD? I still have tons of fun running through the levels at full speed blowing away all the enemies. Its a different experience, for sure, you don't have to be careful so you can get away with a lot and you aren't challenged to be strategic, but you can HAVE FUN. I think games have really lost focus, they're supposed to be about having fun! Sometimes a roguelike challenge is fun, but sometimes godmode is too. Like I said, find ways to subtly punish the player without starting them over. Maybe have lots of locked doors that simply won't open until you've killed all the enemies in the area? Having no game over almost completely mitigates the need for saving, too. You only need to save between sessions then. And honestly, an experience like Heavy Rain where you HAVE to play straight through it, where you save as you go and you never start over, that makes you commit more. You're far less likely to shoot NPCs or children or whatever if it permanently scars your character's reputation. But if you can shoot, chuckle, and then load save, that frees you to be a sociopath.
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Jan 23, 2013 00:48
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Amethyst posted:Why even have a "game over" state if you just let the player save whenever they want? Most FPS games (espcially nowadays) don't have a "game over" state though. Shoot, even most games that still use lives have done away with game over in favor of just starting you back somewhere or making a little "continues number" badge of shame. The reason this happened is because most everyone uses saves to avoid game over. Its the developers reacting to how most people play.
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Jan 23, 2013 00:49
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Zaphod42 posted:Watching all those old Quake speedruns and machinima videos is great. Really brings me back. Which reminds me of this Quake machinima by the same dude: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPJdNKa3e-A
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Jan 23, 2013 02:03
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gooby on rails posted:I don't remember anyone saying anything about ZPC one way or the other except to note that the art was done by the guy who also does KMFDM's album covers. I just remember seeing it all over PC gaming magazines back in the day when they were a thing. It was certainly very visually striking and made for good promo material.
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Jan 23, 2013 02:11
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I started playing my first Thief 2 fan mission yesterday, Dracula Reloaded, and it is really fun. It has a good atmosphere and really uses the whole Dracula idea tastefully and it doesn't feel like it's been smacked together for the sake of it. The English in a few of the notes and objectives is a little strange at times, as I don't think the mod author's first language is English, but it works pretty well. Though some of the hidden keys I personally found difficult to find and had me scratching my head for quite a while. I can't believe I never bothered trying fan missions before, if there are any more out there with this level of quality or higher I think I have many more hours of gameplay to be had with it. Are there any generally recommended T2 fan missions or series' out there?
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Jan 23, 2013 03:19
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Zaphod42 posted:What is this I don't even
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Jan 23, 2013 04:18
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Gay Abortions posted:So, back on the topic of Quake Machinima, I finally dug up a copy of Fiend Run Lite which is probably my favorite.  The Ring of Shadows looks goofy as all hell, especially when you consider the fact that fiends do not have eyes. I'm kind of disappointed that it didn't play through Ziggurat Vertigo.  Also: Holy poo poo it gibbed a Vore 
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Jan 23, 2013 06:37
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Mak0rz posted:...the fact that fiends do not have eyes. 
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Jan 23, 2013 08:05
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CharlesDexterWard posted:Are there any generally recommended T2 fan missions or series' out there?
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Jan 23, 2013 08:52
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Fallom posted:Yeah, you can. It's just when you get on peoples' case for liking a different approach to the game that you enter crazytown, which tends to happen more towards Brutal Doom players than pistol start dudes. I can't remember if it was Tiger or not, but someone a couple pages back was lamenting that people had the absolute gall to request that a wad be made compatible with Brutal Doom. Brutal Doom changes a lot of things and making mods compatible with it requires restraining yourself on the features you use as well as forces you to lower the skill settings. For example, KDIZD or TUTNT aren't compatible with Brutal Doom because they replace the monsters and the weapons, undoing BD's changes. Sunder isn't compatible with BD because it becomes absolutely impossible to win.
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Jan 23, 2013 08:57
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Cat Mattress posted:Brutal Doom changes a lot of things and making mods compatible with it requires restraining yourself on the features you use as well as forces you to lower the skill settings. *Ahem* I managed to get BD working with TUTNT. I think the important thing is to get the .wads loading in the right order. 
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Jan 23, 2013 08:58
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Cream-of-Plenty posted:*Ahem* I managed to get BD working with TUTNT. I think the important thing is to get the .wads loading in the right order. That reminds me, did they update BD lite yet?
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Jan 23, 2013 09:45
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Cream-of-Plenty posted:*Ahem* I managed to get BD working with TUTNT. I think the important thing is to get the .wads loading in the right order. No load order is going to magically add fatalities and other Brutal Doomishness to the custom monsters included, though, and you'll break the "class selection" part of the mod (admittedly a minor part).
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Jan 23, 2013 10:48
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czg posted:Friend, you do NOT want to go there! Hahah oh god... was this a huge thing with the community years ago or something?
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Jan 23, 2013 17:05
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