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DeathSandwich posted:I'll give you as much as 'He's one of the worst party members in P4', but I can think of way worse characters across what what little I've played of SMT games. Yosuke annoyed me in the early game because he's basically the moral center and the mouthpiece in the stead of the MC, but I think the writers leaned a little too heavy in the 'horny teenager' direction with him and it makes the emotional growth of the character over the duration of the game seem insincere. Yosuke has a decent heal spell, Masukukaja, the highest agility in the game, is the first to get a debuff spell and is probably the most well rounded character in the game. He's easily the best party member next to the MC. Did you ever play DDS? Yosuke is specced exactly like Gale. Naoto is easily the worst. Keep in mind this is from vanilla P4, I haven't played Golden. And yea, he acts like a teenager, maybe cause he is a teenager? Plus the game constantly makes him look like an rear end in a top hat and he ends up embarrassed.
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Jan 28, 2013 05:13
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ImpAtom posted:The rear end in a top hat "I'm so tough" dude from Devil Survivor 1 and 2. Technically different characters but they're really the same loving guy. Oh you mean Kaido and Keita from DS 1 and 2 respectfully. Yeah, those guys are... pretty much the same. Although I would argue that Kaido is worse because he loses his memory and acts like an rear end in a top hat to you for no reason. Then pretends we're all cool the next time I see him. Hondo also helps him out for some reason... Jesus, Devil Survivor is really weird. Also why in the hell does Devil Survivor 2 need so many player characters? There's only four teams. There's no way I'll need to use that many.
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Jan 28, 2013 05:14
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FauxGateau posted:Oh you mean Kaido and Keita from DS 1 and 2 respectfully. Yeah, those guys are... pretty much the same. Although I would argue that Kaido is worse because he loses his memory and acts like an rear end in a top hat to you for no reason. Then pretends we're all cool the next time I see him. Hondo also helps him out for some reason... Jesus, Devil Survivor is really weird. So you have a full team when everybody inevitably splits up due to ideological differences. Yosuke is pretty rad in golden, solely because he gets a unique spell that's basically cadenza that only cost 20 sp DrManiac fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Jan 28, 2013 |
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Jan 28, 2013 05:17
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I think they wanted to fix the problem the first game had, where you're stuck with three main guys for like, four days while two people play musical chairs with the fourth slot. Kaido always confused me, because the first cutscene you see him in implies his gang are like good guys, but after the initial meeting they're just generic thugs. He was easily the worst character in that game, and Keita is pretty much the same. Only good thing I can say about Keita is that he shows up much less.
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Jan 28, 2013 05:18
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Momomo posted:I think they wanted to fix the problem the first game had, where you're stuck with three main guys for like, four days while two people play musical chairs with the fourth slot. Kaido always confused me, because the first cutscene you see him in implies his gang are like good guys, but after the initial meeting they're just generic thugs. He was easily the worst character in that game, and Keita is pretty much the same. Only good thing I can say about Keita is that he shows up much less. Also you can let Keita die, which is always fun.
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Jan 28, 2013 05:20
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Nate RFB posted:Has any JRPG implemented a party AI that was done well? I know the original release of DQIV had something like that. Probably one that has more action-based battles. The only good thing about DQ AI is that characters can react to things that happen in the current round (ie, if a character dies one of your AI party members can revive them on the same round they died in instead of waiting for the next one).
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Jan 28, 2013 05:20
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I thought Yosuke was a decent guy who just didn't think before speaking. He'd just say the first thing that came out of his mouth and usually wind up getting dick-punched for it. As mentioned, the game takes great pains to point out that when Yosuke's voicing an opinion, that opinion is usually wrong. The only problem I had with him was that he was voiced by Yuri Lowenthal, and that's just because I'm seriously bored by him now. I have the same problem with Johnny Yong Bosh too. Mailer posted:Does P4G count? It seemed like the ending that they wanted to give P4. You get to see that your ties with the other characters went beyond riding out of town and ditching them forever. I meant more that from Nanako's kidnaping onward the story takes a nosedive. And then when you get the true ending, the party's reaction isn't 'let's put an end to this' it's 'let's give this guy a good sendoff'. What, did someone replace my team with Klingons while I wasn't looking?
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Jan 28, 2013 05:44
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Alteisen posted:Yosuke has a decent heal spell, Masukukaja, the highest agility in the game, is the first to get a debuff spell and is probably the most well rounded character in the game. He's easily the best party member next to the MC. I'm talking about personality wise, less so combat usefulness. Ed: Naoto is actually probably one of the overall best party members combat wise in P4G. Hama boosted Mahamaon or mudo boosted mamudoon works wonders on pretty much any trash mob that isn't immune, Mind charge and megidolan is wonderful if you're fighting fortune hands, and in golden he's given a choice of -dyne spells for boss fights. I wound up just keeping Mamudoon and mudo boost and dropping Mahamaon on her, and whatever she couldn't mamudoon my MC could Hama boosted Mahamaon and barring both of those she could still mind charge agidynes or Megidolans. Her new unique skill in Golden is also *really* good. DeathSandwich fucked around with this message at 05:57 on Jan 28, 2013 |
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Jan 28, 2013 05:48
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Yosuke is one my favorite characters in P4, so we can at least say he's one of the most divisive characters in SMT. V V
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Jan 28, 2013 05:58
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Yea but its Naoto, she could have infinite skill slots and max stats and I still wouldn't use her, she is the only thing that's bad about P4 but what a thing, I almost wish I could keep going if I didn't rescue someone, I'd let her die every single time.
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Jan 28, 2013 06:00
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At least based on the original version, Teddy's totally the best character mechanically. His biggest problem is that he has too many good spells, forcing you to choose between them. A crippling flaw...
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Jan 28, 2013 06:07
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Zombies' Downfall posted:At least based on the original version, Teddy's totally the best character mechanically. His biggest problem is that he has too many good spells, forcing you to choose between them. A crippling flaw... Not as much as his continued weakness to Electricity.  It's worse than Yukiko's Ice weakness because of that one boss situation.
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Jan 28, 2013 06:11
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Alteisen posted:Yea but its Naoto, she could have infinite skill slots and max stats and I still wouldn't use her, she is the only thing that's bad about P4 but what a thing, I almost wish I could keep going if I didn't rescue someone, I'd let her die every single time. I'm really surprised to see Naoto inspire such strong feelings, in either direction, from anyone honestly. She's kind of boring. Probably the least well written character in P4, but not a big deal. Yosuke is one of the better characters in Persona 4. He does stupid poo poo, but his faults are teenager crap he'll grow out of. He's the Magician for a reason. Yosuke is held back by the fact that Social Link Yosuke and Plot Yosuke are practically two different people and they haven't yet found a way to incorporate social link growth into the main game.
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Jan 28, 2013 06:26
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Captain Oblivious posted:Yosuke is one of the better characters in Persona 4. He does stupid poo poo, but his faults are teenager crap he'll grow out of. He's the Magician for a reason. Yosuke is held back by the fact that Social Link Yosuke and Plot Yosuke are practically two different people and they haven't yet found a way to incorporate social link growth into the main game. This is why I've been really like the Fate system from Devil Survivor 2 a lot more than S links. The Fate system gives details into characters without jeopardizing the main plot, and even gives you really useful reasons to talk to people outside of bonus experience and special demons to make.
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Jan 28, 2013 06:57
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TurnipFritter posted:Probably one that has more action-based battles. The only good thing about DQ AI is that characters can react to things that happen in the current round (ie, if a character dies one of your AI party members can revive them on the same round they died in instead of waiting for the next one). Unless you took along Cristo in which case he loves trying to use instant death spells on bosses that are immune to them instead of healing spells.  This is why Nara is more useful for boss fights even though she doesn't learn Kazing or Multiheal and Cristo does.Back on topic I liked Yosuke, the only character I didn't much care for was Yukiko, I thought she was a boring as hell character and even her social link didn't do a lot to change that for me. I don't really remember much about Naoto but I didn't actively dislike her like I did with Yukiko, so even if Naoto has zero personality she's still better than Yukiko in my book. I can't speak much to P3 because I just never took to that game. I beat the first Full Moon boss and I just couldn't garner enough interest in it to get any further.
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Jan 28, 2013 06:58
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Twelve by Pies posted:Back on topic I liked Yosuke, the only character I didn't much care for was Yukiko, I thought she was a boring as hell character and even her social link didn't do a lot to change that for me. I don't really remember much about Naoto but I didn't actively dislike her like I did with Yukiko, so even if Naoto has zero personality she's still better than Yukiko in my book. I think Yukiko exemplified a general problem P4 had, with Social Links that almost seem like they go in a circle. Most of the links seemed to present a crisis where in the end it turns out everything is okay the way it was after all. Which I guess is a thing many teenagers go through, but what gets me is the lack of variation. All this critical talk of these games has me really wondering what they're doing with Persona 5. I really hope that surfaces somewhere this year so we can see. Considering how big of an improvement P4 was, I'm really interested to know what they'll improve for P5, or if they'll go in a completely different direction.
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Jan 28, 2013 07:16
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Alteisen posted:Yea but its Naoto, she could have infinite skill slots and max stats and I still wouldn't use her, she is the only thing that's bad about P4 but what a thing, I almost wish I could keep going if I didn't rescue someone, I'd let her die every single time. Hey, I like Naoto. She has the issue of sort of hijacking the story in a comparable way to Aigis in P3, but it's in a way that I think is more understandable. Before she rolls around most of the Investigation Team's progress has been luck and momentum; the only reason they're the ones saving people is because they're literally the only ones that can, they have absolutely no skills that would in any way lead towards solving a mystery. Naoto, on the other hand, is a detective and knows how such a thing should be treated, so of course everyone defers to her, and she takes charge. Serious business time is a go not just because she's at the helm now, but because the fun and games stop when cute cousins are kidnapped. On the other hand Aigis turns up, becomes basically the focus of P3's story, and eclipses Yukari as the female lead pretty much instantly because... robots are cool, I guess? EDIT: As to P4 characters I didn't like, I'm gonna go for Rise. I'm sure she's got a very good social link, but she reminds me too much of my sister's friends, and I don't like my sister's friends. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 07:30 on Jan 28, 2013 |
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Jan 28, 2013 07:27
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One thing I don't get about people who say Yosuke has no redeeming qualities or are just calling him a jerk is that he's responsible enough to keep a day job, get acceptable grades, be always at the MC's side when they need a hand, and is always up on the take for anything related to the Midnight Channel (He is pretty much always the only one, or at least the first, to call you about recent developments). All this while the universe keeps mocking him and his crush was not just killed but also hated his guts, like the rest of the town he lives in. I can think of many horny, assholey teenagers but I can't think of many who can handle all that. Also and for what it is worth he is the most useful party member by far, at least until Golden. Hell, with his amazing stats and skills Yosuke could have more or less replaced the MC entirely, and the game would have been just fine. It even works in a story sense, since he's from out of town, pretty much leads everyone else (at least until you get Naoto) and even provides a hangout for the group in Junes. Yosuke may do colossally dickish or stupid things but, for a Magician archetype (and really, just compare him with Junpei), he is a much better character (and person) than he is given credit for.
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Jan 28, 2013 08:27
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The problem with people saying that Yosuke wasn't likable is that none of the characters in P4 were. He was just the most obnoxious of them, but he's not that much worse than the others.
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Jan 28, 2013 08:40
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Dorroile posted:The problem with people saying that Yosuke wasn't likable is that none of the characters in P4 were. He was just the most obnoxious of them, but he's not that much worse than the others. Disregarding all other characters for the moment, you just called Kanji unlikeable. That way lies madness.
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Jan 28, 2013 08:55
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Yeah, Kanji was more forgettable than unlikable, i'll concede that.
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Jan 28, 2013 09:06
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TK-31 posted:One thing I don't get about people who say Yosuke has no redeeming qualities or are just calling him a jerk is that he's responsible enough to keep a day job, get acceptable grades, be always at the MC's side when they need a hand, and is always up on the take for anything related to the Midnight Channel (He is pretty much always the only one, or at least the first, to call you about recent developments). All this while the universe keeps mocking him and his crush was not just killed but also hated his guts, like the rest of the town he lives in. He has that job because he is the son of the manager, he wouldn't do it if he weren't. He is so involved in the case because he is bored, he says so himself, and the game doesn't take his social link development into account at all. Which hurts his character a lot, as you are left with a disgusting creep that's meant to be the straight male player's avatar to receive pandering from his scenes with the girls which all revolve around getting in under their skirts. At the same time, he makes fun of Kanji's and Naoto's issues and treats them as not being serious. And when they want to object he always dismisses them and keeps on making fun of them. His getting dumped into a thrash can happens before it can be considered "punishment" and only makes him look like more of an idiot than he already is. The only "punishment" he gets is the pageant, and even then it works for nothing as he then uses it as an excuse to get revenge on the girls. His whole relationship with Chie is him being an rear end in a top hat to her, she getting back at him and then him trying to get back at her for that. He never matures in the whole course of the game. And I think he is actually not a good example of the magician outside of his social link, since he never acts conciously and only realizes his potential and sets himself a goal in the sl, which is actually optional content. This all is very  but he really just makes me very mad. And he's not even useful from a gameplay perspective because he tries to do too much and falls short, while the specialists are much better at what they do and the MC is a much better versatile character for obvious reasons.
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Jan 28, 2013 09:11
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Veks posted:And he's not even useful from a gameplay perspective because he tries to do too much and falls short, while the specialists are much better at what they do and the MC is a much better versatile character for obvious reasons. ...What the gently caress are you talking about? Yosuke is extremely useful from a gameplay perspective. He might not nuke as well as Yukiko or Kanji (or heal as well as the former), but he's an excellent support character, and he destroys random mobs almost as well as Naoto (who up until Golden was completely loving useless outside of destroying random mobs.)
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Jan 28, 2013 09:20
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Uhm... you do realize that the pageant stuff wasn't his fault, right? He signed the girls up because he thought they could UN-sign themselves. He is specifically surprised when he learns that Kashiwagi changed it around this year. The game points this out. He thought it'd be a laugh, "Hey girls! Ready for the pageant! " "Yosuke, you cock." Then they go talk to somebody and get it reversed, everybody has a laugh. He also stops giving Kanji poo poo about halfway through the game, and he... never makes fun of Naoto at all, what the hell? Seriously point the scene where he makes fun of Naoto's issues out to me. He calls Naoto 'little guy' and 'pint-sized detective' but that was before Naoto had joined the party, so he didn't know Naoto's issues. And Naoto had been an rear end to all of them. Also there's maybe two scenes total where he really forces pandering scenes out of the girls, and, as stated, the pageant thing was only partially his fault. And the swimsuit thing at the school trip happens early in the game. Also, when the hell does he get 'revenge' for the pageant? He signed them up for it BEFORE they signed him up for the crossdressing thing in return, and he just sorta, get this, glumly accepts it. Like he's annoyed and embarrassed but he rolls with it. And then the pageant thing gets dropped and nobody ever brings it up again after it happens, unless I really missed something.
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Jan 28, 2013 09:20
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Alteisen posted:Yosuke has a decent heal spell, Masukukaja, the highest agility in the game, is the first to get a debuff spell and is probably the most well rounded character in the game. He's easily the best party member next to the MC. Naoto is insane in Golden. Every elemental spell on top of light/dark, strong physical attacks, both reflect spells, and the unique skill makes your whole party immune to the next attack they receive. Also as mentioned all the golden hands that pop up need Mind Charge/Megido to take care of. The only problem is you'll run out of skill slots for all the stuff you want. That said Yosuke's unique is Mediarama+Masakukaja for a tiny amount of SP which is also pretty good
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Jan 28, 2013 09:38
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Dorroile posted:Yeah, Kanji was more forgettable than unlikable, i'll concede that. First recommending P1 and now hating on Kanji. My god what a terrifying existence you must occupy.
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Jan 28, 2013 09:41
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THE AWESOME GHOST posted:Naoto is insane in Golden. Every elemental spell on top of light/dark, strong physical attacks, both reflect spells, and the unique skill makes your whole party immune to the next attack they receive. Also as mentioned all the golden hands that pop up need Mind Charge/Megido to take care of. The only problem is you'll run out of skill slots for all the stuff you want. Incidentally, Yosuke also learns Megido in Golden. He doesn't get any of the advanced versions, but that helps against the golden hands a lot.
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Jan 28, 2013 09:42
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:First recommending P1 and now hating on Kanji. It really is terrifying to be the only person with good taste. It's some Planet of the Apes kinda poo poo.
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Jan 28, 2013 09:44
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Dorroile posted:It really is terrifying to be the only person with good taste. It's some Planet of the Apes kinda poo poo.
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Jan 28, 2013 09:50
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The one thing I really didn't like about P4's cast is that Kanji and Naoto double up on the 'adolescent confusion' character theme. It's a perfectly legitimate thing to cover especially with the game's core themes, since a lot of teens go through that sort of thing at that age, but having them both end up with the revelation of 'oh, false alarm, I'm just a normal person with non-normative tastes' causes it to fall a bit flat. I'll give credit, it could have been insensitive and offensive in both cases and it never is, but I feel like it would've made for a better story if one of them actually was what they thought they were.
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Jan 28, 2013 10:11
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The worst person related to SMT is the character artist for Devil Survivor.
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Jan 28, 2013 10:14
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Veks posted:He has that job because he is the son of the manager, he wouldn't do it if he weren't. How he got the job or why his shadow thinks he's into the investigations (remember that those things like to distort the truth) doesn't really matter as much as the fact that he can do both of those things competently on top of trying to help everyone around him. I'm not even sure where you even get the Chie thing from since the very first scene with both of them is about him treating her to steak after Chie lent him one of her movies. Yes, they bicker and sometimes are dicks to each other, that's a thing that friends do. I'm not saying you have to like the character or else you're literally Hitler. Hell, I hate nerd pandering and characters that enable it as much as the next person (I did not like Rise, for instance, even though she wasn't nearly as awful as say, Aigis) but some people talk like he's the most reprehensible human being ever and the tunnel vision involved in that reads like some major projecting.
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Jan 28, 2013 10:34
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Cleretic posted:The one thing I really didn't like about P4's cast is that Kanji and Naoto double up on the 'adolescent confusion' character theme. It's a perfectly legitimate thing to cover especially with the game's core themes, since a lot of teens go through that sort of thing at that age, but having them both end up with the revelation of 'oh, false alarm, I'm just a normal person with non-normative tastes' causes it to fall a bit flat. I'll give credit, it could have been insensitive and offensive in both cases and it never is, but I feel like it would've made for a better story if one of them actually was what they thought they were. Don't forget Yukiko. It's not as controversial a situation as the other two but that gives them even less of a good reason to go 'wait no, turns out I DO want to run the inn and be the stereotype of the elegant, subservient woman that Japanese society tells me I need to be'.
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Jan 28, 2013 10:41
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Brother Entropy posted:Don't forget Yukiko. It's not as controversial a situation as the other two but that gives them even less of a good reason to go 'wait no, turns out I DO want to run the inn and be the stereotype of the elegant, subservient woman that Japanese society tells me I need to be'. Yeah, that's a huge problem with the game in my opinion. I like the character, but christ, that was a bad direction for her link to go.
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Jan 28, 2013 10:45
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Brother Entropy posted:Don't forget Yukiko. It's not as controversial a situation as the other two but that gives them even less of a good reason to go 'wait no, turns out I DO want to run the inn and be the stereotype of the elegant, subservient woman that Japanese society tells me I need to be'.
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Jan 28, 2013 10:48
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The way a lot of SLs are resolved is unsatisfying, specially when it comes to gender roles and how promising the game is about them early on. At least Chie and Kanji turned out okay. 
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Jan 28, 2013 10:50
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Has anyone played through both versions of Eternal Punishment? By both I means the PSX and the PSP versions. I have the chance to buy the PSX version for cheap, and with it seeming unlikely the the PSP version will get localised I was wondering if I would be missing out on much because I can't read Japanese. 'Missing out' comes with some caveats of course, because it's really in terms of satisfying my OCD. I have all the other Personas on my Vita and it's annoying knowing that one entry in the series isn't on there. 
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Jan 28, 2013 12:00
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Eh count me as someone who dislike the tunnel vision involved with Yosuke as well. The guy definitely steps out of line at time, but he's ultimately pretty well meaning and caring, despite the snark. On the other hand, I don't see why people lumps Naoto and Kanji together. Kanji's deal is about his sexuality, and a bit about the representation therein, though it never really cares to answer if he likes dudes or not. Hell, the point of his link is basically "who cares, he's Kanji, he's awesome". Naoto's problem related to patriarchy and misoginy, not sexuality. That's basically all her shadow is about: "You need to have a man's body to do the profession you want? Then getting a man's body is the logical step."
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Jan 28, 2013 12:04
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I think I've finally stopped disliking Yosuke in that way and it took me replaying P4 through Golden to do that because I sort of realized most of what he did was just dumb decisions he thought could be fixed. I mean I don't like him that much because he's a really bad mouthpiece for the main character and his S. Link is just bad, but he's not nearly as awful as I used to make him out to be and as some people do. He does assholish things, but kind of gets better about it and the worst thing he does in the game is at the start of the game, I'd also say near the end of the game, but that's a scene I dislike in general because Kanji also acts the same in that scene and I feel like it could've been handled better. Either way though, in summation Yosuke is an rear end as the start and there are legit reasons to dislike, but he gets better about his dumb attitude later and does less dumb things.
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Jan 28, 2013 12:45
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THE AWESOME GHOST posted:Naoto is insane in Golden. Every elemental spell on top of light/dark, strong physical attacks, both reflect spells, and the unique skill makes your whole party immune to the next attack they receive. Also as mentioned all the golden hands that pop up need Mind Charge/Megido to take care of. The only problem is you'll run out of skill slots for all the stuff you want.
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Jan 28, 2013 13:07
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