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Iceclaw posted:On the other hand, I don't see why people lumps Naoto and Kanji together. Kanji's deal is about his sexuality, and a bit about the representation therein, though it never really cares to answer if he likes dudes or not. Hell, the point of his link is basically "who cares, he's Kanji, he's awesome". Naoto's problem related to patriarchy and misoginy, not sexuality. That's basically all her shadow is about : "You need to have a man's body to do the profession you want? Then getting a man's body is the logical step." With both of these, it's sort of an issue of what's left unsaid. Kanji likes women; this is never outright stated, so it can be misinterpreted, but he's most likely just a straight guy that happens to love sewing. It's not entirely clear if Naoto's issues are entirely societal, or if there's a personal bent to it as well. She's clearly getting the message of 'you would need to be a man to live the life you want', but it isn't entirely clear for the most part if that message was entirely gleaned from the outside world or if it's in some way internalized as well. Still, they get lumped together because they're facing the same problem: They're both facing alternate sides of the 'boys like X, girls like Y, if you don't fit into this you're weird' predicament that's common for teenagers.
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Jan 28, 2013 13:21
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Jesus. Three whole pages of this argument huh? I though both games had excellent casts of characters. You can argue that P3's is worse due to being larger and having less focused character development, but who cares? All of the characters are memorable, you're genuinely invested in their struggle and their desire to succeed, and each one manages to remain relevant to the plot the entire game through (except for Koromaru because he is a dog, you see). Yosuke is not the world's biggest bigot and the Megaten SJW club really needs to come to terms with whatever issues they have regarding him. Guy's a 16-year-old horndog teenager with a penchant for pressing people's buttons. He's also, let's be said, a very young manager, has excellent organization skills, can motivate people easily, is really good at fighting monsters, and don't forget the COUNTLESS loving scenes where Yosuke is the very first of the group to volunteer to help somebody (looking for Nanako, giving the Tower S-link kid a party, and so on. The creepiest thing he does is have the girls wear swimsuits, which pretty much reads weird no matter how you look at it, but seriously, enough. For being "fans" of a game, you lot sure are eager to just viciously bisect their plots and characters. And stop arguing with the guy with the catgirl avatar, he's clearly trolling. I also don't get the whole "he's the mouthpiece for the main character" because he, uh, isn't? The main character is the mouth piece for the main character. Yosuke's the "everyman" character, ostensibly, who is there to ask questions that we, the player, may want to ask because a silent protagonist doesn't make for the most inquistive of people. That's why Yosuke spends every loving scene briefly summing up the entire plot--he's there to keep you from feeling lost in the narrative, even if he may be a bit redundant at times. Also? Ken Amada wasn't all that bad. Sure, it's unfortunate that he lives and Proto-Jungo dies, but in all honestly, Ken's character arc is just as relevant and thematically appropriate as everyone else's. In fact, it's kind of a shame there wasn't more time spent on it, since the death of a parent is probably a lot more commonly relateable than the death of your gothic lolita girlfriend.
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Jan 28, 2013 14:59
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RentCavalier posted:And stop arguing with the guy with the catgirl avatar, he's clearly trolling. I assure you that all my opinions are not only sincere, but completely Correct.
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Jan 28, 2013 16:33
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RentCavalier posted:For being "fans" of a game, you lot sure are eager to just viciously bisect their plots and characters. Viciously bisecting things you like is really cool, though??? Don't do the stupid internet hugbox thing where you can't criticize things you enjoy. These games aren't so good that they're beyond flaws and talking about those flaws is interesting discussion. (I will agree that Yosuke and Ken aren't that bad, though)
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Jan 28, 2013 16:46
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:First recommending P1 and now hating on Kanji. But...I liked Persona 1.  v Let me be honest in saying that Deva Yuga is the best dungeon in Persona. El Belmondo fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Jan 28, 2013 |
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Jan 28, 2013 16:53
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Pesona 1 PSP would probably be a pretty solid MegaTen title if it had pretty much any other battle system from the SMT franchise. Significantly shorter and less bland dungeons would help too. However anyone who claims the US PS1 release is salvageable is insane.
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Jan 28, 2013 16:57
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Brother Entropy posted:Viciously bisecting things you like is really cool, though??? Don't do the stupid internet hugbox thing where you can't criticize things you enjoy. These games aren't so good that they're beyond flaws and talking about those flaws is interesting discussion. Seriously, there is nothing wrong with criticizing games you like, if anything it goes to show how much you like the game that are you willing to recognize its flaws discuss any problems with it. I mean, I love DDS, but there are some seriously problems with those games like dungeon design, Cielo's kind of a worthless character until the second game and everything is batshit nuts I see exactly why it would be so offputting to people. Verbally fellating your favorite games is literally the worst disservice you can do to something you like, it's what puts me off a Persona 4 a bit because people seriously unironically act like it's the greatest JRPG to hit the shelves since FF7 despite the fact I genuinely enjoy the game. Nate RFB posted:Pesona 1 PSP would probably be a pretty solid MegaTen title if it had pretty much any other battle system from the SMT franchise. Significantly shorter and less bland dungeons would help too. However anyone who claims the US PS1 release is salvageable is insane. Persona 1 and 2 PSP have legit awful combat systems, dungeons and encounter rates. When anybody says stuff like "Persona 1/2 are the best Persona games" it is really jarring because the combat systems are just so terrible in how slow and unintuitive they are. Thankfully the PSP versions added a speed up or else it would be worse, OH WAIT P2IS on the PSP has awful loading times, thanks Atlus.
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Jan 28, 2013 17:02
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Honestly even with the poo poo combat system I'd still say Persona 2 was my favorite.
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Jan 28, 2013 17:09
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I'm fine with P2's system, though it is a bit antiquated. It's quicker and a lot less convoluted than P1's, and it's easy to get into a kind of groove and mindset for how to utilize it (Go for Fusion Spells, get Free Tarots). It was kind of nice that you could pretty much perpetually run around a dungeon thanks to SP restoring while you walked, so long as you worked in some demon contacting every now and then. Picking out good Personas was also a lot easier and less of a trial by error approach like what P1 implemented.
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Jan 28, 2013 17:15
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Brother Entropy posted:Viciously bisecting things you like is really cool, though??? Don't do the stupid internet hugbox thing where you can't criticize things you enjoy. These games aren't so good that they're beyond flaws and talking about those flaws is interesting discussion. I was more objecting to the really negative and kind of nasty tone of the bisections. I dunno, between "my opinions are always correct" trolls and "yosuke is the new hitler" maybe I was just reading more into it than needed. Who knows! Persona 1 is pretty dope, but I have to admit, it wears thin fast. I was really liking it all the way up to some castle dungeon and then I just stopped playing and don't feel like picking it up again. The sped-up battle mechanics save the game from absurd tedium. Plus, the storyline is kind of neat--I really dug Persona 1's set-up, it had this kind of oppressive horror feeling. Oh, but I don't care much for the PSP remake's new soundtrack. Shoji Meguro is better with organs and pianos and poo poo, the hip-hop business feels really jarring when put alongside the fairly bleak gothic horror environment of Persona 1.
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Jan 28, 2013 17:19
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Something's been bugging the hell out of me regarding the characters for SMT IV. Jonathan's design is clearly meant to invoke the Law Hero from the old games. Walter is supposed to be the Chaos Hero, and Isabeau is the Heroine. But what's the deal with Navarre? What's his role in all this? How does he fit in to the traditional SMT paradigm?
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Jan 28, 2013 17:23
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So do we get to pick the gender of the dude in SMTIV? Or is there a main character already? I haven't kept with news much.
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Jan 28, 2013 17:31
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W.T. Fits posted:But what's the deal with Navarre? What's his role in all this? How does he fit in to the traditional SMT paradigm? Given how his character is described as extremely proud, and having looked down on the protaginist, I'm guessing an early game rival/that one guy from SMT2 you beat a few time? The false hero?
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Jan 28, 2013 17:36
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W.T. Fits posted:Something's been bugging the hell out of me regarding the characters for SMT IV. Navarre is either Aleph, unless it's Issachar or he's involved with Isabeau in some way because, (and bear with me here) the two main characters in Ladyhawke are named Navarre and Isabeau. There's also some similarities between the style of that movie and IV. He's either some sort of neutral hero, or possibly a rival similar to Daleth. It's unknown.
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Jan 28, 2013 17:39
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Alteisen posted:So do we get to pick the gender of the dude in SMTIV? http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Protagonist_(Shin_Megami_Tensei_IV)
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Jan 28, 2013 17:42
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Dorroile posted:The problem with people saying that Yosuke wasn't likable is that none of the characters in P4 were. He was just the most obnoxious of them, but he's not that much worse than the others. Literally every word in this sentence is false.
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Jan 28, 2013 17:44
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Dorroile posted:It really is terrifying to be the only person with good taste. It's some Planet of the Apes kinda poo poo. Kidding aside, I mostly agree with you. I don't get all the hate for Persona 1 (It's pretty antiquated, but it's not completely unlikeable) and I also think all the party members in Persona 4 are either obnoxious or boring, except for Kanji and maybe Chie. I don't really think they're poorly written characters, I just don't like them.
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Jan 28, 2013 18:51
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The story and setting and poo poo in Persona 1 is fine; it's also a prequel to 2, which is one of my favorite JRPGs of all time. My problems with it arise from the gameplay, which I find incredibly unfun. Truth be told, I don't like mazelike first-person dungeons. I definitely prefer Persona 2-4 to any of the main-series SMT games or Strange Journey.
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Jan 28, 2013 18:54
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Iceclaw posted:Eh count me as someone who dislike the tunnel vision involved with Yosuke as well. The guy definitely steps out of line at time, but he's ultimately pretty well meaning and caring, despite the snark. Kanji's deal, as has been gone over in the past, isn't about his sexuality. It's about how society views each gender and the behavior it does and does not consider acceptable, and the extent to which society is a poo poo to people who don't conform. Questioning his sexuality is merely a symptom of the fact that, for his entire life, he's been told that he can't be a real man if he likes girly poo poo. Sexuality is a question Kanji might have to answer down the road, but it's not what his character arc is about. Naoto and Kanji both have character arcs revolving around gender norms and society's refusal to bend on them.
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Jan 28, 2013 19:00
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Lazy Programming posted:The worst person related to SMT is the character artist for Devil Survivor. I think we got a winner here. There's no good reason that the guy keeps getting character design work.
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Jan 28, 2013 19:11
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Neeksy posted:I think we got a winner here. There's no good reason that the guy keeps getting character design work. but the fanboy dollars! 
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Jan 28, 2013 19:25
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W.T. Fits posted:Something's been bugging the hell out of me regarding the characters for SMT IV. Ideally it'll be more like SMT2 where the five characters on the box didn't fit into the roles you were expecting them to:  I wouldn't count Isabeau as the heroine just yet. I'd sooner believe that'll be Issachar (alternatelly he'll be the sacrificial lamb to kill off to show that poo poo Has Gotten Real, or he'll turn into jealous rival rear end in a top hat who does horrific things for power).
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Jan 28, 2013 20:32
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TurnipFritter posted:Ideally it'll be more like SMT2 where the five characters on the box didn't fit into the roles you were expecting them to: I'm waiting for Walter to actually be a really empathetic guy, and for Johnathan to be a Dark-Law rear end in a top hat.
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Jan 28, 2013 20:36
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A Law character being an rear end in a top hat, in Megaten? Why I never.  If anything, The Law girl and Remiel in Devil Survivor was an exception considering how surprisingly level headed and humane she remains, even in the Chaos path, which is usually the moment the Law heroes lose their poo poo and become colossale monsters.
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Jan 28, 2013 21:13
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Iceclaw posted:A Law character being an rear end in a top hat, in Megaten? Why I never. And then Overclocked was released and the 8th Day for the Law route flushed all that down the toilet to revert it back to the SMT status quo. Or so I've heard.
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Jan 28, 2013 21:36
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W.T. Fits posted:And then Overclocked was released and the 8th Day for the Law route flushed all that down the toilet to revert it back to the SMT status quo. Or so I've heard. It's the opposite honest. Law in the original game has a real creepy fascist dictatorship overtone to it. It's peace because rebellion is forbidden. In Overclocked You have the angels going and murdering those who don't obey but the protagonist can choose to go about it his own way and prevent the murderin' which really defangs the Law ending's downsides.
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Jan 28, 2013 21:40
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ImpAtom posted:It's the opposite honest. Ah, okay. I must've misunderstood what people meant when they complained about the 8th Day stuff in Overclocked ruining the normal game's original endings.
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Jan 28, 2013 21:41
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W.T. Fits posted:Ah, okay. I must've misunderstood what people meant when they complained about the 8th Day stuff in Overclocked ruining the normal game's original endings. Yeah, that's basically what I hated about them. In the original game each ending had a downside and you basically had to pick one and deal with the consequences. Overclocked specifically allows you to avoid the consequences for your actions in each ending that it has an Overclocked level for. Even Yuzu's which is specifically the "you done hosed up" ending. The only endings without Overclocked are the ones which are basically entirely positive to begin with. In the Law ending you even get to redeem freaking Cain with the power of Friendship. I guess it was just that easy.
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Jan 28, 2013 21:44
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I haven't done it yet, but I love what I've heard of the new Chaos ending. Yuzu and Midori summon Metatron to gently caress you up and holy poo poo, it just sounds awesome as hell.
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Jan 28, 2013 21:51
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Sex_Ferguson posted:I haven't done it yet, but I love what I've heard of the new Chaos ending. Yuzu and Midori summon Metatron to gently caress you up and holy poo poo, it just sounds awesome as hell. It's pretty great. You can also choose between being a Benevolent dictator or a tyrant, each which has its own ending and stuff, pretty cool Even though the former does kind of have the problem that ImpAtom mentions
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Jan 28, 2013 22:09
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Also, Black Frost becomes your second in command when you win no matter which side you choose and it's loving awesome seeing humanity bow down to Black Frost.
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Jan 28, 2013 22:38
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We still don't have Overclocked over there  I can't wait to play SMT IV in 2017 (or never, if it's like Raidou II...)
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Jan 28, 2013 23:23
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Kurtofan posted:We still don't have Overclocked over there Since SMT x Fire Emblem is A Real Thing That Is Actually Happening (and showed up on the European Nintendo Direct), you can cross your fingers that NoE will pick it up.
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Jan 28, 2013 23:32
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ImpAtom posted:In the Law ending you even get to redeem freaking Cain with the power of Friendship. I guess it was just that easy. Welp, that's it. That's the sentence which made me stop wanting to ever play DS:O.
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Jan 28, 2013 23:42
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Ibram Gaunt posted:http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Protagonist_(Shin_Megami_Tensei_IV) I just want to say that the backstory for SMT4 is really loving weird. I didn't expect them to pull crazy alt-history stuff on us. quote:East Mikado is founded on the land of Kanto since 1492 (Gregorian calendar). The country is ruled by King Ahaziah Mikado, whose palace is situated in the very center of the city. The city is heavily fortified and features wide and decorated streets. The protagonist, Isabeau, Jonathan, Walter, and Navarre are samurais from this country.
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Jan 28, 2013 23:46
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Dorroile posted:Welp, that's it. That's the sentence which made me stop wanting to ever play DS:O. That's why you just do Naoya's 8th and never touch that Messian propaganda 
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Jan 28, 2013 23:53
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Ibram Gaunt posted:That's why you just do Naoya's 8th and never touch that Messian propaganda The fact that the choice even exists just kind of ruins everything. Like getting it on with Ken in P3P.
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Jan 28, 2013 23:55
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Dorroile posted:The fact that the choice even exists just kind of ruins everything. Like getting it on with Ken in P3P. Why did you remind me 
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Jan 29, 2013 00:09
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Dorroile posted:Welp, that's it. That's the sentence which made me stop wanting to ever play DS:O. A messianic figure leading people to redemption? What is this horseshit?
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Jan 29, 2013 00:54
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Regarding Yosuke being stupid, I like to chalk it up to the MC giving Yosuke mild brain damage during the last S-link scene. I tend to run it fairly early. If there's something I like P4 over P3, it's that the MC is no longer some lanky dweeb. Look at the dude, he's huge, he has presence. P3 MC can't even keep his spine straight.
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Jan 29, 2013 02:23
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